Why is our recruiting under Fitz not at par with Barnett or smart schools?

[hdhntr1]

You are missing so much regarding the demise of Barnett and NU football in 97 and 98, I don't know where to begin.

1. Abramson was known to be a high risk QB recruit because he was a flake of a personality. MSU and Michigan wouldn't touch him, even though he was a Michigan kid. Barnett took the risk and got burned. And Barnett had no plan B. Had Schnur not blossomed his last two years as an effective game manager, Barnett would have gone 0 for 7 recruiting QBs during his years in Evanston. That's 1-7 recruiting QBs that helped NU win games. Near misses and early quitters don't count. That's a .125 winning percentage.

2. You make no mention of the putrid 1995 recruiting class that Barnett was totally responsible for. That class was essentially a total whiff. Can you name the 97 and 98 starters from that class. They would have been juniors and seniors. You can't because there weren't any of any consequence. That was devastating to NU's chances of winning in those years.

3. Barnett's head was indeed elsewhere at the end of the 97 season. I have that on good authority from one of his coordinators.

4. No RBs to replace DAI? See point no. 1. Barnett had the opportunity. He didn't deliver.

5. How about no OLM that could move the LOS? Barnett batted less than .300 in successfully recruiting OLM to NU. His 93 and 96 OL classes were pretty good. His other OL classes were not. So when holdovers like Johnson and Kardos, and 93 guys like Padgett and others moved on, the OL pups from 96 were all they had to work with. It obviously didn't work.

6. Have you ever looked at the DBs Barnett recruited to NU. OMG. Really made things difficult for his DC after Ray (Peay holdover) and Martin ( We beat Army for him) moved on.

The great recruiter myth regarding Barnett has lived on for more than 20 years now. Why? Hell. I don't know why. His success in 95 and 96 was far more the result of having a bunch of great overachievers playing for him. A great staff working for him. A whole bunch of stars aligning. And his own motivational and game day coaching talents...which I believe were exceptional.

Barnett gets all the credit for the single greatest coaching achievement I have witnessed in my 50+ years of following sport. He also gets credit for virtually everything good that has happened to the program since. The change he created still inures to the benefit of the program today. My only point is that there is no need to make excuses for his swift fall from the top. He just never recruited all that well, with some glaring holes as mentioned above, after striking gold in 2 and 3 star seams in 93 and 94.

The program is in much better shape than when Barnett was at the helm. Then again, let's not forget that we now have a totally committed BOT, an insanely supportive President and possibly the best AD in the Country. Those factors make a HUGE difference. Look for the next step up that Corbi refers to beginning this year.

GOUNUII

Not sure about OL. HE recruited the fab 5 OL that were anchor to 2000 team. HE also recruited a couple other pretty good RBs after 95. Brown who went to CO when Walker did not want to use him as RB. Not sure if DA2 was a Barnett recruit. He also recruited the kid who went to MIch (when he left and helped get Kustock here. The reason Barnett was looked at as such a great recruiter is he did get guys to come that would not have looked at NU before. But with many HCs, much of a coaches success is based on the guys he has surrounding him. For example, when Vanderlin left, he lost a lot

 

[gocatsgo2003]

Lou: I don't think it's fair to say "they were both losing coaches" as the basis for comparison. The question is: how much did they improve the program from where it was when they started?

And when you look at it that way, there's simply no debate that GB improved the NU football team from where it was to what it became -- frankly more than any coach of any school in history that anybody her can think of without doing a ton of research to trot out some dude who turned Southwest BumbleF State around in the 20s or whatever. (Maybe there's somebody who did a better job elevating a program than GB did but if that guy exists, I'd like to hear about it...)

Yes, Fitz's teams are better on the whole than Walker's teams were. But not all that much better, and certainly nowhere near the realm of improvement from GB's teams - which were light years better than where they were before him.

The problem is that while Barnett was responsible for the "highest highs" in Northwestern football history, he's also responsible for returning the team right back to the shitter with his 1998 season.

 

[D_C_B]

The problem is that while Barnett was responsible for the "highest highs" in Northwestern football history, he's also responsible for returning the team right back to the shitter with his 1998 season.

True, but that's no worse than where we we're so from a change perspective, that season is just a push. It's not like he took a traditional perennial power and flushed them down the toilet like a couple of ND coaches did...

 

[lou v]

You're right. He did take over a trash pile and got it to the Rose Bowl in Year 4. That's maybe the single best coaching job in college football history. But then, after two straight Big Ten titles, they were right back down to 0-8 within two years. That's why I'm bringing up the records. You stated Fitz was a losing Big Ten coach; I wanted to make sure we were all clear that Barnett was a losing Big Ten coach, too, and in fact had a losing record overall. Even after the Big Ten titles, he was a losing coach again in his final two years, when he went 3-13 in conference. Barnett had two magnificent years but was abysmal in the other five. Fitz is a more consistent winner, both in and out of conference. If you want to point out that Fitz hasn't come close to a B1G title, then you also have to point out that he didn't go 0-8, either.

Lou: I don't think it's fair to say "they were both losing coaches" as the basis for comparison. The question is: how much did they improve the program from where it was when they started?

And when you look at it that way, there's simply no debate that GB improved the NU football team from where it was to what it became -- frankly more than any coach of any school in history that anybody her can think of without doing a ton of research to trot out some dude who turned Southwest BumbleF State around in the 20s or whatever. (Maybe there's somebody who did a better job elevating a program than GB did but if that guy exists, I'd like to hear about it...)

Yes, Fitz's teams are better on the whole than Walker's teams were. But not all that much better, and certainly nowhere near the realm of improvement from GB's teams - which were light years better than where they were before him.

I'm not a pro-Fitz, anti-Barnett guy. I loved Barnett. He took the program out of the Dark Ages and took us on the ride of a lifetime. There's no question that he improved the team more than Fitz did. I just want to point out that he couldn't sustain it. After those two miraculous years, they sunk right back to where they were when he took over. Fitz has been a more consistent winner over a longer period, even if he hasn't achieved anywhere near the highs of Barnett. That counts, too.

As for other coaches that did as good or better a turnaround job than Barnett, I think Bill Snyder at K State is the only one that can rival him. KSU was as bad as NU for decades, and he turned them into a consistent Top 10 program for a long period (up to his first retirement). He sustained excellence for far longer than Barnett. But he didn't have the academic restrictions Barnett did and liked to play cupcake non-cons, so that diminishes it a bit.

 

[gocatsgo2003]

True, but that's no worse than where we we're so from a change perspective, that season is just a push. It's not like he took a traditional perennial power and flushed them down the toilet like a couple of ND coaches did...

If you're going to give Barnett credit for the good years, sure seems logical to give him blame for the crap years.

 

[EvanstonCat]

Lord have mercy, Barney has been gone 20 years!

Tis be true, to be sure, but we ain't seen a recruiting class win a B1G title since...

 

[EvanstonCat]

Yes, we need to recreate the Barnett miracle! Let's hire an assistant from a national championship team (Clemson, Alabama, Ohio St?) who's never been a head coach to work under the academic restrictions here and see if we can do it again! Great plan (sarcasm alert).

You laugh, but I don't think it's coincidence that Barnett had championship rings on his fingers, and Chris Collins had his. If we ever do part ways with Fitz, I sure hope we don't go to the MAC or other mid-major well for someone who has no idea what a national championship calibre team is. Nothing against the MAC - if they come from the MAC but also have a ring on their finger that's ok.

 

[EvanstonCat]

That's revisionist history. We did NOT suck in 1998 because Barnett "wasn't even believing his own message."

In 1997, we went 5-7 because D'Wayne Bates got hurt during the week one shutout of Oklahoma. Bates missed 11 of 12 games. We lost to Wake by 7, Rice by 6, Wisky by 1, and #2 PSU by 3 points.

You don't think Bates would have had an impact on those games?

If losing Bates destroyed 1997, Lloyd Abramson ruined 1998 way back in 1995. Let's step back to spring of 1995. Abramson was anointed the starting QB -- as a RS frosh -- after spring practice. He quit football in August 1995, literally a few days before camp. Schnur, Chris Hamdorf, and Tim Hughes battled for the starting gig. Schnur won and the rest was history.

Fast forward to summer 1997, and Schnur's eligibility is up. Tim Hughes had started at QB way, way back in '94 but couldn't complete 50% of his passes. That was with Darnell Autry and Dennis Lundy lugging the leather in '94. If you couldn't complete 50% with those two in the backfield drawing the safeties up, it was going to be problem. Why else do you think Barnett recruited Abramson and was ready to hand him the job as a RS frosh in '95?

Hughes was the '97 starter and then Bates goes down. Losing season.

Now we're in 1998 and Hughes and Hamdorf was gone. We were supposed to have a 3-year starter at QB, but instead, we've got two rookies, Gavin Hoffman (who becomes the starter) and Nick Kreinbrink. Hoffman was really indecisive, but you could see that he had potential. Just wasn't ready yet. By the end of the season, he was in touch with Penn about going to Wharton and that's where he went.

Back in the summer of 1995, everybody thought that losing the projected 4-year starting QB would torpedo 1995, but in actuality, Abramson's departure damaged 1997 and 1998. Barney recruited a replacement, Hoffman, but Gav was too green. The whole team was rebuilding by then, but the talent coming in was unbelievable.

It's B.S. to say Barney "wasn't even believing his own message." That wasn't the problem. Cycling in a young team to replace a Rose Bowl squad was the problem. Doing it without an experienced QB or RB was a problem.

And, that dip post Rose Bowl, was exactly what Wisconsin experienced before they went on to sustained perennial contention. None of us will ever know for sure, but in my heart of hearts, I know that if Barnett had not left, we'd be on the same curve as Wisconsin. Instead, we got the Walker years.

 

[gocatsgo2003]

And, that dip post Rose Bowl, was exactly what Wisconsin experienced before they went on to sustained perennial contention. None of us will ever know for sure, but in my heart of hearts, I know that if Barnett had not left, we'd be on the same curve as Wisconsin. Instead, we got the Walker years.

Really can't find any fault in Barnett, can you?

 

[EvanstonCat]

You are missing so much regarding the demise of Barnett and NU football in 97 and 98, I don't know where to begin.

1. Abramson was known to be a high risk QB recruit because he was a flake of a personality. MSU and Michigan wouldn't touch him, even though he was a Michigan kid. Barnett took the risk and got burned. And Barnett had no plan B. Had Schnur not blossomed his last two years as an effective game manager, Barnett would have gone 0 for 7 recruiting QBs during his years in Evanston. That's 1-7 recruiting QBs that helped NU win games. Near misses and early quitters don't count. That's a .125 winning percentage.

2. You make no mention of the putrid 1995 recruiting class that Barnett was totally responsible for. That class was essentially a total whiff. Can you name the 97 and 98 starters from that class. They would have been juniors and seniors. You can't because there weren't any of any consequence. That was devastating to NU's chances of winning in those years.

3. Barnett's head was indeed elsewhere at the end of the 97 season. I have that on good authority from one of his coordinators.

4. No RBs to replace DAI? See point no. 1. Barnett had the opportunity. He didn't deliver.

5. How about no OLM that could move the LOS? Barnett batted less than .300 in successfully recruiting OLM to NU. His 93 and 96 OL classes were pretty good. His other OL classes were not. So when holdovers like Johnson and Kardos, and 93 guys like Padgett and others moved on, the OL pups from 96 were all they had to work with. It obviously didn't work.

6. Have you ever looked at the DBs Barnett recruited to NU. OMG. Really made things difficult for his DC after Ray (Peay holdover) and Martin ( We beat Army for him) moved on.

The great recruiter myth regarding Barnett has lived on for more than 20 years now. Why? Hell. I don't know why. His success in 95 and 96 was far more the result of having a bunch of great overachievers playing for him. A great staff working for him. A whole bunch of stars aligning. And his own motivational and game day coaching talents...which I believe were exceptional.

Barnett gets all the credit for the single greatest coaching achievement I have witnessed in my 50+ years of following sport. He also gets credit for virtually everything good that has happened to the program since. The change he created still inures to the benefit of the program today. My only point is that there is no need to make excuses for his swift fall from the top. He just never recruited all that well, with some glaring holes as mentioned above, after striking gold in 2 and 3 star seams in 93 and 94.

The program is in much better shape than when Barnett was at the helm. Then again, let's not forget that we now have a totally committed BOT, an insanely supportive President and possibly the best AD in the Country. Those factors make a HUGE difference. Look for the next step up that Corbi refers to beginning this year.

GOUNUII

1. I don't think you can look at Abrahamson and say he was a high risk QB. Who knew he'd flake out? He was borderline 5 star, and Barnett wanted him to start over Schnurr. 1-7 is BS. Abrahamson leaving did open up an unexpected gap. Gavin Hoffman was as good as Thorson was as a freshman, and went on to win Ivy League MVP, break records, and held a clipboard for a year for the Bengals. Jon Navarre was a 3 year starter at Michigan, led them to a B1G title, was drafted and played for the Cardinals.

2. That class was a stinker. Ranked 49th though. I can't name anyone. I literally looked them up on-line, and couldn't find any trace of that class. It was like they never existed.

3. Perhaps

4. BS. Chris Brown? Are you joking? Just because Walker tried to make him a WR and he transferred, doesn't mean Barnett didn't have someone to take over from DA2. Heisman and Doak Walker finalist. AFC Rushing leader.

5. I still can't find any mention on the web of anyone from the 1995 recruiting class. OLM or not.

6. Hudhaifa Ismaeli and William Bennett were pretty good if you ask me. As was Harold Blackmon (Seattle Seahawks). Rashidi Wheeler was a beast too before his tragedy. And a bunch of the others ended up playing for the Colby Swiss, so they were likely better than their DC enabled them to be.

Barnett had great classes post Rose Bowl. But, his pre Rose bowl classes weren't bad either. Ranked higher than Fitz's and most definitely Walker's.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...120117_1_northwestern-gary-barnett-recruiting

 

[EvanstonCat]

Really can't find any fault in Barnett, can you?

He left.

Although, to be honest, I don't blame him given what a cock Rick Taylor was.

So, he leaves NU, and then he goes to CU where they win a bunch of Division titles and get ranked in 10. Did it twice. At two different schools. Seems more than a flash in the pan to me.

 

[Deeringfish]

And, that dip post Rose Bowl, was exactly what Wisconsin experienced before they went on to sustained perennial contention. None of us will ever know for sure, but in my heart of hearts, I know that if Barnett had not left, we'd be on the same curve as Wisconsin. Instead, we got the Walker years.

Yeah because he left after promising over and over that he wouldn't. He was,"Just trying to keep the program on a high profile." by shopping himself around.
He can suck eggs for all I care.

 

[Turk]

Not sure about OL. HE recruited the fab 5 OL that were anchor to 2000 team. HE also recruited a couple other pretty good RBs after 95. Brown who went to CO when Walker did not want to use him as RB. Not sure if DA2 was a Barnett recruit. He also recruited the kid who went to MIch (when he left and helped get Kustock here. The reason Barnett was looked at as such a great recruiter is he did get guys to come that would not have looked at NU before. But with many HCs, much of a coaches success is based on the guys he has surrounding him. For example, when Vanderlin left, he lost a lot

The '93 recruiting class was ranked #25. The only higher rated classes since the 90s was Barnett's recruiting class of '96 and '97.

The '93 class participated in a Big Ten Championship.
The 96' class and 97' classes participated in a Big Ten Championship

It's not true when GCG says that Barnett left the program right back in the dumper. His worked established the baseline of the 2000 championship. Even when the Brown's, Nyhenhuis, Lucier's, Navarre's, Albreights, left, he still left us with boatloads of talent.

Since then, we simply have not had the talent to compete at championship level. We bow out of even division races a few weeks prior to the end of the season. I think Fitz is doing a great job coaching our talent up, but the truth remains, our talent simply isn't on levels that win championships. I think it has the potential to take that next step up, but never before we address our glaring weakness, i.e., OL recruiting.

 

[CoralSpringsCat]

As GOUNU correctly points out, that 95 class was a key contributor to the demise of GB at NU. It included a core that was "affectionately" known as the "Dirty Dozen" - a group of guys that made virtually ZERO on field contribution during their time in Evanston. This was the class that came in after Rob and I left NU and was the class prior to Rose Bowl success. It pains me to link the following, but for ECats benefit I have:

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1995-02-02/sports/9502020219_1_gary-barnett-pound-wildcats

 

[gocatsgo2003]

He left.

Although, to be honest, I don't blame him given what a cock Rick Taylor was.

So, he leaves NU, and then he goes to CU where they win a bunch of Division titles and get ranked in 10. Did it twice. At two different schools. Seems more than a flash in the pan to me.

So "no, I cannot find fault in Barnett."

 

[GOUNUII]

1. I don't think you can look at Abrahamson and say he was a high risk QB. Who knew he'd flake out? He was borderline 5 star, and Barnett wanted him to start over Schnurr. 1-7 is BS. Abrahamson leaving did open up an unexpected gap. Gavin Hoffman was as good as Thorson was as a freshman, and went on to win Ivy League MVP, break records, and held a clipboard for a year for the Bengals. Jon Navarre was a 3 year starter at Michigan, led them to a B1G title, was drafted and played for the Cardinals.

2. That class was a stinker. Ranked 49th though. I can't name anyone. I literally looked them up on-line, and couldn't find any trace of that class. It was like they never existed.

3. Perhaps

4. BS. Chris Brown? Are you joking? Just because Walker tried to make him a WR and he transferred, doesn't mean Barnett didn't have someone to take over from DA2. Heisman and Doak Walker finalist. AFC Rushing leader.

5. I still can't find any mention on the web of anyone from the 1995 recruiting class. OLM or not.

6. Hudhaifa Ismaeli and William Bennett were pretty good if you ask me. As was Harold Blackmon (Seattle Seahawks). Rashidi Wheeler was a beast too before his tragedy. And a bunch of the others ended up playing for the Colby Swiss, so they were likely better than their DC enabled them to be.

Barnett had great classes post Rose Bowl. But, his pre Rose bowl classes weren't bad either. Ranked higher than Fitz's and most definitely Walker's.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...120117_1_northwestern-gary-barnett-recruiting

If you were capable of learning anything regarding all things Barnett, I would respond. Even if you were just capable of taking what is objectively true and letting it reasonably influence your Barnett opinions, one I might give it a go. But that's not gonna happen. Anybody who cites Navarre, Hoffman and Abramson to support Barnett's greatness is too far gone. How many Big Ten games did those QBs win for NU? Look it up E-Cat.

GOUNUII

 

[SciCat]

If you were capable of learning anything regarding all things Barnett, I would respond. Even if you were just capable of taking what is objectively true and letting it reasonably influence your Barnett opinions, one I might give it a go. But that's not gonna happen. Anybody who cites Navarre, Hoffman and Abramson to support Barnett's greatness is too far gone. How many Big Ten games did those QBs win for NU? Look it up E-Cat.

GOUNUII

He'll just claim that NU didn't develop/use the talent properly, as he's done re: Siemian. Wait, that'll prove your point.

 

[Gladeskat]

1. I don't think you can look at Abrahamson and say he was a high risk QB. Who knew he'd flake out? He was borderline 5 star, and Barnett wanted him to start over Schnurr. 1-7 is BS. Abrahamson leaving did open up an unexpected gap. Gavin Hoffman was as good as Thorson was as a freshman, and went on to win Ivy League MVP, break records, and held a clipboard for a year for the Bengals. Jon Navarre was a 3 year starter at Michigan, led them to a B1G title, was drafted and played for the Cardinals.

I think you can trust GOUNUII's word on Abrahamson considering his direct contact with the coaching staff back then. Same, if not more so with CoralSpringsCat's comments.

Gavin Hoffman's 1998 team was 0-8 in the B1G. Thorson's 2015 team was 6-2 in the B1G. You won't accept this, and of course, the two teams were different, but Thorson played very well his freshman year doing what he was asked to do.

You're legit arguments supporting Barnett's recruiting after 1995 are not very relevant to the "collapse" in 1997-1999.

2. That class was a stinker. Ranked 49th though. I can't name anyone. I literally looked them up on-line, and couldn't find any trace of that class. It was like they never existed.

Jeff Dyra was the lone starter from that class of scholarship recruits. I thought Sanders was another but he was originally a walkon.

4. BS. Chris Brown? Are you joking? Just because Walker tried to make him a WR and he transferred, doesn't mean Barnett didn't have someone to take over from DA2. Heisman and Doak Walker finalist. AFC Rushing leader.

GOUNUII was talking about after DA1, not after DA2. Again, not very relevant to the collapse in '97-99. I don't completely agree with GOUNU here because I thought AAutry was serviceable in '97 and Barney could and did bring in good RB's in '97 (DA2, Marshall), but the '95 and '96 classes lacked a solid RB. Miller was a decent FB but had to retire due to injury, creating problems for Barnett and Walker. Walker found a way to work around the positional talent deficits to produce a 6-win B1G season and change NU football for going on two decades.

5. I still can't find any mention on the web of anyone from the 1995 recruiting class. OLM or not.

6. Hudhaifa Ismaeli and William Bennett were pretty good if you ask me. As was Harold Blackmon (Seattle Seahawks). Rashidi Wheeler was a beast too before his tragedy. And a bunch of the others ended up playing for the Colby Swiss, so they were likely better than their DC enabled them to be.

Barnett had great classes post Rose Bowl. But, his pre Rose bowl classes weren't bad either. Ranked higher than Fitz's and most definitely Walker's.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...120117_1_northwestern-gary-barnett-recruiting

His pre-Rose Bowl classes were better (performed better) than his post-RB classes. Talking about ratings on paper when we know the outcome of these classes is silly. You've already pointed out that the 1995 class was rated #49, yet yielded only one starter while the #96th rated '92 class produced numerous solid starters, and won the B1G twice.

 

[FloridAlum]

So you think CoralSpringsCat knows something just because he was working in the athletic department at the time and working specifically in the recruiting area, processing paperwork and helping evaluate recruits film.So what.Why should he know more than some doofus on a message board.
GOUNUII, Now there is a beauty. Why should he know anything just because he was good friends with a couple of the assistant coaches and was doing legal work for a couple of NFL teams, I think the Bengals and the Browns, who regularly scouted Northwestern players and would talk to him about what they thought of some of our kids.So we were at the Air Force game in 2002, night before the game having drinks with the GOUNUII's, the mesacats and The Waterboy, he says we have this tight end recruit named Essex, well he is not going to play tight end, coaches say he will get a lot bigger and play offensive tackle. What the hell did he know.at least one of those yo-yos bought me a drink.

 

[hdhntr1]

So you think CoralSpringsCat knows something just because he was working in the athletic department at the time and working specifically in the recruiting area, processing paperwork and helping evaluate recruits film.So what.Why should he know more than some doofus on a message board.
GOUNUII, Now there is a beauty. Why should he know anything just because he was good friends with a couple of the assistant coaches and was doing legal work for a couple of NFL teams, I think the Bengals and the Browns, who regularly scouted Northwestern players and would talk to him about what they thought of some of our kids.So we were at the Air Force game in 2002, night before the game having drinks with the GOUNUII's, the mesacats and The Waterboy, he says we have this tight end recruit named Essex, well he is not going to play tight end, coaches say he will get a lot bigger and play offensive tackle. What the hell did he know.at least one of those yo-yos bought me a drink.

Least you got a drink out of it.

 

[Deeringfish]

Least you got a drink out of it.

Maybe this thread has finally go a happy ending.