Ash is transferring

[haywood jahblowme]

kids not graduating and transferring for meaningful minutes to peer power-5 schools (like turner did coming to NU) is much different than kids graduating from NU after getting beat down game after game against superior athletes, with a great degree, and going to a much lower level to play lots of minutes

its more inductive of the type of kid NU is allowed to admit (smart kids who are borderline big ten athletes that "play up" a level for an education vs. high level kids leaving to go to a "better" program because of program issues)

 

[Medill90]

just a little recruiting data to shed light on NU versus the rest of the conference....

for the 2020 class NU has 9 offers out

Illinois has offered just less than half of NU's recruits...4 of 9

Illinois has 34 offers out, just under 4x NU

Illinois has two fewer spots to fill than NU

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

Next year will be fun for the homers around here. Poke fun now, get archived later. That’s my feelings. I know, it’s so unfair! Why should I have my day after you get yours. Anywho, time will tell

Be careful what you wish for. Those archives work for the football board too. There are some gems there .

 

[IGNORE]

Why do you bother, if you hate Collins and NU ? Who would you rather have as HC?

Your words, not mine. #fakenews

I'm not a Kool Aid drinker. Southsider - call it as I see it. Applaud the good, bitch about the bad. And not here to sit and hold hands while we sing Kum-By-Ya.

Which is why IGNORE is your friend.

I don't hate NU - they paid me to go to school and provided me a diploma that has opened many doors. I don't hate CCC, nor BC for that matter. But BC had hit a wall, was not making any effort in recruiting and growing stale - it was time for a change. CCC has been super dynamic and exciting...until that wore out.

If you are going to shower CCC with accolades for making the Dance - not because of a fluke shot in the MI game, or a down year in the B1G, or any other fate related explanation - then you also have to hold him accountable for his failures, or just the failures under his reign.

If he was a baseball player, he wouldn't even be a 3 true outcome hitter. He has struck out a bunch (Vassar, Brown, Ash, Falzon, RI, Lathon) and he has walked (getting legit B1G players like Mac, Law, Lindsey, Pardon), but he really hasn't hit that homerun (no VV, Coble, Shurna types).

But assume for the sake of the argument that you consider Law or Mac or Pardon to be home runs (do any of them make NU All Time Top 10?), then would you be excited for your favorite team to have acquired Adam Dunn, Adam LaRoche or any other 3 True Outcome player? Not if you are the type of fan that demands competitive rosters and occasional championships. And that is me.

So when VA is all happy about PF and the decisions that cost us about 5 easy wins that would have led to national prominence, I bitch. Sure, we went Bowls. And every got participation trophies - but greater things were within grasp and stupid decisions threw them away. I will go to the Bowl games, I will be excited to watch the Cats play - but I will bitch about what could have been. It's my right - don't like it, IGNORE is your friend.

So, back to CCC. I don't hate him but I'm starting to think he is not the long term solution that I had hoped he would be. I wonder if some combination of Baldwin and Hardy might have been the better direction - imagine the inside track to landing both their kids, plus their recruiting talents plus their coaching talents... Spilt milk...

But CCC has not shown to be a great ingame coach. He has not shown to be good at managing his roster and his problems (Vassar). I would even argue he is slow to adjust (man to zone schemes, lineups changes, etc.). And his greatest strength - super recruiter - now seems less super with little vision.

Forget your crap about the facilities - they brought in Eschmeyer, Coble, Shurna, Law, Pardon, MT1, 2 & 3 and many other good players - plus CCC is the 'super recruiter.' To not have options, legitimate - not Ash or true frosh or committee options - is terrible planning. Disagree? Fine, it is definitely not the planning of a multi-million dollar coach. Fate happens? You pay experts lots of money to predict fate, plan for fate, be ready for fate. Fate happens when you let it.

So, no - I don't hate the coach nor the school. I will fly around again to watch the Cats in foreign arenas whenever the dig out from laughingstock into formidable competitors. I will not show up for the participation trophy ceremony, but I will be there if they have a chance in the B1G tourney and its within my range. Or they dance. Or even if they get a couple of rounds deep into the NIT. Will you? I don't care. I am comfortable with my fandom and my frustrations. If you are not, IGNORE is your friend.

 

[IGNORE]

and some players think it's all about them

Recruit the right players then.

#accountability

 

[IGNORE]

Be careful what you wish for. Those archives work for the football board too. There are some gems there .

Big difference, I will own my mistakes (as long as it is not something taken out of context). That is rare around here. Instead, posters bitch - 'hey Lou, Bob is picking on me ;( Forget the period of time when that poster was picking on me. Whatever. I love me the archives.

#accountability

 

[IGNORE]

"Medill90, post: 612240, member: 1096"]Wisconsin had four players who are seniors this year leave the team/transfer, one of whom was a 4* who NU recruited in the same year as Aaron. Aaron, despite his injuries, was more productive. Wisconsin fans aren't buzzing about a dumpster fire because they have a potential POY in Happ and are in the tournament.

And yet they have 12 guys on scholarship. Including three frosh 3 star or better. That coach had a plan.

MSU had four guys -- would be three seniors and one junior this year -- leave the team/transfer. Doesn't matter who leaves MSU because the aura is such that they are always in fine shape and Izzo is a spirit whisperer.

And yet they have 12 guys on scholarship. Including five frosh 3 star or better. That coach had a plan.

Michigan had six guys -- would be seniors/juniors this year -- leave the team/transfer.

And yet they have 12 guys on scholarship. Including five frosh 3 star or better. That coach had a plan.

Purdue two guys.

And yet they have 12 guys on scholarship. Including five frosh 3 star or better. That coach had a plan.

Iowa five guys.

And yet they have 12 guys on scholarship. Including three frosh, two are four stars star. That coach had a plan.

Maryland two. (and two underclassmen)

And yet they have 12 guys on scholarship. Including SIX frosh with 4 that are 3.5 star or better. That coach had a plan.

Ohio State nine guys.

And yet they have 12 guys on scholarship. Including four frosh 4 star or better. That coach had a plan.

Minny five guys.

And yet they filled ALL 13 scholarships. Mostly with crap, IMHO but hey, that coach had a plan.

Those are the non pro departures of upperclassmen among the tournament teams.

And those teams also had a lot of true depth.

Puts NU in the middle, about average. And you forgot a few other schools in the conference. But, ok, let's see how NU bounces back from all these recent departures and what happens next year. We know this year sucked, Last year sucked. Who knows, maybe third time is the charm...

 

[IGNORE]

just a little recruiting data to shed light on NU versus the rest of the conference....

for the 2020 class NU has 9 offers out

Illinois has offered just less than half of NU's recruits...4 of 9

Illinois has 34 offers out, just under 4x NU

Illinois has two fewer spots to fill than NU

Illinois has been on recruiting fire. Whoever they lose, they already have two studs verbal-ed for next year. Last years giant class of six included three well regarded recruits including a potential one and done. Still on the roster from the previous class are two more studly recruits.

I don't understand why Illinois and Indiana are so bad - but the recruiting seems pretty effective. Player development, ingame coaching - maybe that chemistry problem that we experienced last year. Who knows.

 

[PURPLECAT88]

i don't think anyone around here is claiming next year will be better.

as far as rap - lets do some digging on players that sat on their first 2 years of college and had successful careers for the same program. im sure its a small number if any at all.

Eschmeyer, but overall your point is a good one.

 

[Sec.112]

... I don't hate CCC ...

... until that wore out ...

... So, back to CCC. I don't hate him ...

So, no - I don't hate the coach ...

Overcompensating much?

Let's cut away with some of the BS. I know there's a lot left.

It's pretty obvious you don't like anything about Collins. How many years have you been absolutely going out of your way to bust Collins?

 

[corbi296]

It’s not about making a living. It’s about playing a game they love. To get to this level you are likely extremely competitive by nature. Being nailed to the bench on a team that will be bottom third of the B1G and potentially dead last would be a tough pill to shallow for a kid in his final year of ball. Players want to play.

As I said, this just may be one big unfortunate coincidence and stretch of bad luck. Based on my experience, this many transfers, particularly at NU which doesn't historically see a lot of athletes transferring out, is indicative of some chemistry problems in the program. Certainly this observation would help partly explain the program's inability to not only build on but actually regress since its historic season a couple of years ago. At a minimum these transfers are indicative of several recruiting misses and/or player development issues that are crippling the program and figure to do so at least through next season.

Let me be clear, I like Chris Collins. I was a huge fan of his Dad as a player/coach and followed Chris' playing career from Glenbrook North to Duke. I was excited when Chris was hired and pleased to see the progress he was making. That being said, I am not as close to the basketball program as I am to the football program and perhaps that is enough to enable me to view the challenges the program has faced over the last couple of years with a level of objectivity that is escaping many of you. Anybody who has observed what has happened with the program on and off the court over the last couple of years who doesn't express even a modest level of concern needs to take the purple blinders off.

 

[IGNORE]

Overcompensating much?

Let's cut away with some of the BS. I know there's a lot left.

It's pretty obvious you don't like anything about Collins. How many years have you been absolutely going out of your way to bust Collins?

Typical. Out of context extractions. Do you work for CNN by chance?

#fakenews

 

[IGNORE]

Anybody who has observed what has happened with the program on and off the court over the last couple of years who doesn't express even a modest level of concern needs to take the purple blinders off.

Nailed it

 

[hdhntr1]

just a little recruiting data to shed light on NU versus the rest of the conference....

for the 2020 class NU has 9 offers out

Illinois has offered just less than half of NU's recruits...4 of 9

Illinois has 34 offers out, just under 4x NU

Illinois has two fewer spots to fill than NU

IL can offer 4 times what NU can because their admission standards are so much less

 

[Medill90]

As I said, this just may be one big unfortunate coincidence and stretch of bad luck. Based on my experience, this many transfers, particularly at NU which doesn't historically see a lot of athletes transferring out, is indicative of some chemistry problems in the program. Certainly this observation would help partly explain the program's inability to not only build on but actually regress since its historic season a couple of years ago. At a minimum these transfers are indicative of several recruiting misses and/or player development issues that are crippling the program and figure to do so at least through next season.

Let me be clear, I like Chris Collins. I was a huge fan of his Dad as a player/coach and followed Chris' playing career from Glenbrook North to Duke. I was excited when Chris was hired and pleased to see the progress he was making. That being said, I am not as close to the basketball program as I am to the football program and perhaps that is enough to enable me to view the challenges the program has faced over the last couple of years with a level of objectivity that is escaping many of you. Anybody who has observed what has happened with the program on and off the court over the last couple of years who doesn't express even a modest level of concern needs to take the purple blinders off.

I have a lot of respect for your opinion and agree that there is reason for concern.

My concerns are different.

On the "this many transfers" point....this graduate transfer thing is relatively new....part of the reason ash and falzon may be able to go somewhere else for a fifth year is that they were quality to begin with, a quality in short supply years past.....and the quality that is here is sufficiently high for both to see that can do better elsewhere....I also think in the case of Falzon that he may want to play near family for a year.

Until we know more, we're are speculating.

My big concern is around Collins and his evolved perception of NU. He may love the new buildings, but if he thinks admissions is unreasonable he may very well leave. If he's waving goodbye to a couple very good players each year who can cut it academically but don't have the data points admissions wants, he may in time lose his passion for NU.

If that happens, it is my opinion, there is nobody who can win here. Collins walking is a multi-generational death-knell for NU basketball. And, I think it could happen in the 3-4 year time frame.

 

[Jeffrey Cat]

I have a lot of respect for your opinion and agree that there is reason for concern.

My concerns are different.

On the "this many transfers" point....this graduate transfer thing is relatively new....part of the reason ash and falzon may be able to go somewhere else for a fifth year is that they were quality to begin with, a quality in short supply years past.....and the quality that is here is sufficiently high for both to see that can do better elsewhere....I also think in the case of Falzon that he may want to play near family for a year.

Until we know more, we're are speculating.

My big concern is around Collins and his evolved perception of NU. He may love the new buildings, but if he thinks admissions is unreasonable he may very well leave. If he's waving goodbye to a couple very good players each year who can cut it academically but don't have the data points admissions wants, he may in time lose his passion for NU.

If that happens, it is my opinion, there is nobody who can win here. Collins walking is a multi-generational death-knell for NU basketball. And, I think it could happen in the 3-4 year time frame.

Agreed on all points.

 

[willycat]

Agreed on all points.

Ditto!

 

[hdhntr1]

As I said, this just may be one big unfortunate coincidence and stretch of bad luck. Based on my experience, this many transfers, particularly at NU which doesn't historically see a lot of athletes transferring out, is indicative of some chemistry problems in the program. Certainly this observation would help partly explain the program's inability to not only build on but actually regress since its historic season a couple of years ago. At a minimum these transfers are indicative of several recruiting misses and/or player development issues that are crippling the program and figure to do so at least through next season.

Let me be clear, I like Chris Collins. I was a huge fan of his Dad as a player/coach and followed Chris' playing career from Glenbrook North to Duke. I was excited when Chris was hired and pleased to see the progress he was making. That being said, I am not as close to the basketball program as I am to the football program and perhaps that is enough to enable me to view the challenges the program has faced over the last couple of years with a level of objectivity that is escaping many of you. Anybody who has observed what has happened with the program on and off the court over the last couple of years who doesn't express even a modest level of concern needs to take the purple blinders off.

The Brown, Vasser situtations are potentially areas of concern. But the Rap, Falzon and Ash are all about injuries derailing there careers here coupled with seeing no available minutes. CCC likely was honest ith then and they made logical decisions.

Maybe some of us have longer term views of what is going on. We have seen struggles with admissions throughout. Would it help to realize that in the last 30 years, every major coach in FB and BB that has had earlier success tends to have a down period somewhere around year 7 of their tenure here? Barnett took us to the RB and Citrus bowls in year 4 and 5 but then the program had losing records in years 6 and 7 after which he left. (I think he would have gotten back on top after a couple years as Walker used his guys to get the BIG championship.) Walker had a BIG championship in year 2 but collapsed in year 3 and 4 before he righted the ship to mediocre and he was likely to have another down period in year 8 (Fitz had that down year) . Fitz got up to 8 and 9 wins in his 3rd and 4th year but had his worst years in 8 and 9. In BB, BC got up to an 8-8 BIG record in his 4th year but in years 7 and 8 his program collapsed to win a total of 3 BIG games combined. But he recovered to have his most successful period at NU. In other words a down period around years 7+- is sort of par for the course for our top coaches at NU.

The very nature of the situation at NU means that it will, at least in the beginning, be more up and down than most programs. Even Fitz had his down period (Fitz seems to have gotten past that point so down periods are less frequent or severe) there will tend to be up and down periods and one tends to be around this time. Why? Hard to say but maybe part of it is that the guys that they bring in and got them up the mountain tend to all leave at around the same time and since they were getting all the minutes the drop off is more severe till they bring in the replacements and get them the playing time they need to develop.

In other words, have patience young grasshopper. Give him time to go through another cycle. He has guys here and coming in that look to be pretty good and we have seen tremendous improvement on D and rebounding are encouraging signs for the future as they will keep you competitive. And he has a much better situation to sell. Honestly, guys like Vassar and Brown are not guys he would bring in now but at the time it was who he could get to fill in gaps as he was starting out his program. As far as Rap, Falzon and Ash, between injuries and guys ahead of them, it was hard for them to get playing time. While if healthy they likely would have played significant roles and likely minimized the down period, with the injury handicap, even after recovery, they are not able to play at the level that the new guys he is able to bring in can. Rap is doing well but if still here, he likely would not have been able to get the minutes he needed to bring his game back to this point.

I look for better things to come. But it may take a couple more years and then I feel we will be seeing the start of the golden age of NU BB similar to what Fitz has done with FB

 

[PurpleFaze]

Illinois has been on recruiting fire. Whoever they lose, they already have two studs verbal-ed for next year. Last years giant class of six included three well regarded recruits including a potential one and done. Still on the roster from the previous class are two more studly recruits.

I don't understand why Illinois and Indiana are so bad - but the recruiting seems pretty effective. Player development, ingame coaching - maybe that chemistry problem that we experienced last year. Who knows.

Didn't Illinois just set their record for most losses in a season or something along those lines? They will keep getting better, but still have a ways to go.

Illinois has open spots and rumor is 2-3 guys looking to transfer out. It's not like transfers are few and far between these days.

Currently Illinois has one top recruit and one kid who a high percentage of people seem to feel won't be admitted (grades I assume).

 

[PurpleFaze]

The Brown, Vasser situtations are potentially areas of concern. But the Rap, Falzon and Ash are all about injuries derailing there careers here coupled with seeing no available minutes. CCC likely was honest ith then and they made logical decisions.

Maybe some of us have longer term views of what is going on. We have seen struggles with admissions throughout. Would it help to realize that in the last 30 years, every major coach in FB and BB that has had earlier success tends to have a down period somewhere around year 7 of their tenure here? Barnett took us to the RB and Citrus bowls in year 4 and 5 but then the program had losing records in years 6 and 7 after which he left. (I think he would have gotten back on top after a couple years as Walker used his guys to get the BIG championship.) Walker had a BIG championship in year 2 but collapsed in year 3 and 4 before he righted the ship to mediocre and he was likely to have another down period in year 8 (Fitz had that down year) . Fitz got up to 8 and 9 wins in his 3rd and 4th year but had his worst years in 8 and 9. In BB, BC got up to an 8-8 BIG record in his 4th year but in years 7 and 8 his program collapsed to win a total of 3 BIG games combined. But he recovered to have his most successful period at NU. In other words a down period around years 7+- is sort of par for the course for our top coaches at NU.

The very nature of the situation at NU means that it will, at least in the beginning, be more up and down than most programs. Even Fitz had his down period (Fitz seems to have gotten past that point so down periods are less frequent or severe) there will tend to be up and down periods and one tends to be around this time. Why? Hard to say but maybe part of it is that the guys that they bring in and got them up the mountain tend to all leave at around the same time and since they were getting all the minutes the drop off is more severe till they bring in the replacements and get them the playing time they need to develop.

In other words, have patience young grasshopper. Give him time to go through another cycle. He has guys here and coming in that look to be pretty good and we have seen tremendous improvement on D and rebounding are encouraging signs for the future as they will keep you competitive. And he has a much better situation to sell. Honestly, guys like Vassar and Brown are not guys he would bring in now but at the time it was who he could get to fill in gaps as he was starting out his program. As far as Rap, Falzon and Ash, between injuries and guys ahead of them, it was hard for them to get playing time. While if healthy they likely would have played significant roles and likely minimized the down period, with the injury handicap, even after recovery, they are not able to play at the level that the new guys he is able to bring in can. Rap is doing well but if still here, he likely would not have been able to get the minutes he needed to bring his game back to this point.

I look for better things to come. But it may take a couple more years and then I feel we will be seeing the start of the golden age of NU BB similar to what Fitz has done with FB

It's all about the next two recruiting classes. There seems to be a solid foundation for year after next with the 4 current frosh and the 3 incoming kids. Need to keep building on that versus more lean years where we end up with one contributor- our current sr and jr classes pretty much amount to turner and gaines.

Next year was going to be a bad year no matter what unless CC somehow pulled in 2-3 killer grad transfers.