This is the talk on press row the last few minutes. Vassar is charging NU with intimidation tactics in an effort to get him to transfer.
Wow.
NU slapped with antitrust lawsuit
Wow.
NU slapped with antitrust lawsuit
Big news: Vassar suing NU for antitrust
- Thread starter lou v
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If these allegations can be proven (big if), it would not surprise me if Collins is done at NU. I hope none of this is true.
Don't post often but have supported program since days of undergrad when we stormed the court after beating MI to go to NIT. Hope truth comes out either way. If it's not what we want to hear then need to take action to make swift correction. Some things aren't worth the W imo.
Why now. He has been off the team for greater than a year. Something does not sound right.
This seems more like a complaint about Vassar not being able to transfer immediately, which is an NCAA issue, not a Northwestern one. (Keep in mind that he transferred four times in high school.) Having "worked as a janitor" seems hard to believe, but that's not abusive even if true. And no one here is saying Vassar was kicked out of school, just that he got his athletic scholarship replaced with an academic one.
Ultimately, this should be a minor headache unless someone at NU lied or committed fraud.
Ultimately, this should be a minor headache unless someone at NU lied or committed fraud.
Agree. This is an NCAA issue as to immediate transfers. As to NU, Vassar seems to be arguing that a coach can never kick a player off the team, even if the school keeps him or her on scholarship. That can't be right.
One other note: The link is not to a news story; it is to a press release by Vassar's lawyers. Expect aggressive spin.
Yeah, important to note that it's a press release. In other news, I'm excited about NU basketball this year. We have toughness and multiple scorers. Nice performance tonight.
But this could undoubtedly be a big distraction as we prepare for the gauntlet of non-conference schedule, beginning Wednesday at Butler.
Also, this appears to be part of a larger antitrust lawsuit against the NCAA by this firm that has been going on since 2012 without, apparently, much success. Probably falls into the category of "Nothing to see here...."
Don't know the law applicable to the violation of law allegations, but this notion of being heavily recruited out of HS with numerous "but for" transfer opportunities and realistic pro asperations is total BS. GOUNUIi
You should read some of the other complaints that are part of the lawsuit. The Northern Illinois punter one I found particularly entertaining....
I don't buy this. To me it sounds like the kid just couldn't cut it and has sour grapes. Also that's complete BS about other coaches saying they'd love to have him, but only if he could play right away. Not buying that at all.
I'm surprised by the questions about Collins based on the press release.
What in that press release comes close to implying that Collins orchestrated the change to JV's scholarship or the circumstances around his work? I hope people are reading the term "NU staff" incorrectly because I don't think that's a reference to the basketball staff specifically.
If it turns out Collins organized a job for Vassar and a change to JV's work schedule, he should be fired ... for utter stupidity.
And if youre surprised NU as an institution would put something like this together to sweep it under the rug, I don't think you've been paying attention.
Pretty scummy all around. And I don't exclude JV from that statement at all. A guy who goes to four schools in four years (not including home schooling) knows how to read the fine print.
What in that press release comes close to implying that Collins orchestrated the change to JV's scholarship or the circumstances around his work? I hope people are reading the term "NU staff" incorrectly because I don't think that's a reference to the basketball staff specifically.
If it turns out Collins organized a job for Vassar and a change to JV's work schedule, he should be fired ... for utter stupidity.
And if youre surprised NU as an institution would put something like this together to sweep it under the rug, I don't think you've been paying attention.
Pretty scummy all around. And I don't exclude JV from that statement at all. A guy who goes to four schools in four years (not including home schooling) knows how to read the fine print.
Actual complaint is located here. Names names and even provides scans of the time cards in question. Of course, it's designed to present Vassar in the best possible light and NU in the worst possible light, so it's not to be taken as gospel, but there is some potentially damaging stuff in there.
So the full complaint was posted by Inside NU and is more damning of Collins and the athletic department than the press release. All allegations and no input from us, obviously, but some of it does ring true. The complaint includes images of what they say are the falsified time sheets, but more troubling to me is the alleged lengths Polisky and the general counsel went to in order to push Vassar out, including the allegation that they set up a make-work internship to keep him on scholarship.
We still don't know a lot from NU's side: why Vassar was pushed off (or left) the team instead of just riding the bench for three more years, the nature of the transfer discussions and of course what, if any, internship there was.
I still think it's not a big deal as long as there was no fraud. Inside NU points out that Liberman signed a non-disclosure, which was weird, and Kale Abrahamson lit up Collins pretty strongly on his way out. Maybe Chris is the new Tom Crean. But personally, I have a tough time crying for a player who could have transferred and kept his academic scholarship anyway.
We still don't know a lot from NU's side: why Vassar was pushed off (or left) the team instead of just riding the bench for three more years, the nature of the transfer discussions and of course what, if any, internship there was.
I still think it's not a big deal as long as there was no fraud. Inside NU points out that Liberman signed a non-disclosure, which was weird, and Kale Abrahamson lit up Collins pretty strongly on his way out. Maybe Chris is the new Tom Crean. But personally, I have a tough time crying for a player who could have transferred and kept his academic scholarship anyway.
I'm not entirely sure what to make of all this yet. I mean, there's a lot to go through there and a lot of standard "the NCAA sucks" stuff, but page 21 is quite something. If NU actually submitted those timecards as as evidence that he committed fraud so they could boot him off scholarship, that's an amazing bit of incompetence. Love the crossed out name of Addison Steiner (who's a girls soccer player), replaced simply with "Johnnie V."
That said, there's probably good reason to be skeptical about a lot of this stuff. But there's enough detail here that a lot of it seems plausible.
One other thing that struck me is that this claims his athletic scholarship was changed to an academic scholarship in May, so that would mean the basketball team actually did have an open scholarship for a grad transfer.
There is certainly plenty to discuss, but the complaint contains the answer to what everyone has been asking for months and months:
"Thus, by May 5, 2016, Northwestern finally freed up Johnnie’s athletic scholarship and he no longer counted toward the school’s NCAA scholarship caps."
So there's that.
"Thus, by May 5, 2016, Northwestern finally freed up Johnnie’s athletic scholarship and he no longer counted toward the school’s NCAA scholarship caps."
So there's that.
Sounds more like a NCAA issue where Vassar and NU struggled to navigate a failed relationship with in the NCAA restrictions.
It has smelled funny for a long time so now we know a little more.
Interesting that yesterday someone posted an overly innocent inquiry about the Vassar situation.
It has smelled funny for a long time so now we know a little more.
Interesting that yesterday someone posted an overly innocent inquiry about the Vassar situation.
There is a sentence in Paragraph 1 which is just plain incorrect. I haven't read the entire suit, but if this is an example of the law firm's ability then JV is in trouble.
"If a school does not grant permission to transfer that student athlete must sit out a year before he or she can play elsewhere with an athletic scholarship. Sitting out a year decreases (or outright eliminates) the ability of athletes to transfer because many schools want athletes who can play immediately, and subjects the athlete to a year without an athletic scholarship or forces them to transfer to a lower level division."
Factually, anyone who transfers to another Div I program must sit out a year. Has nothing to do with "permission". And this in paragraph 11 seems to be a complete fabrication: any Div I shool knows there was no way (other than a hardship waiver) that he would be eligible immediately, regardless of what NU did:
"Following relentless efforts by Northwestern, and though Johnnie wanted to stay at Northwestern, Johnnie looked into transferring and received interest from several Division I schools who would have extended offers to him if he was immediately eligible. But because he was unable to secure a waiver of the NCAA transfer rules pursuant to which he would be forced to sit out of competition for a year, all of the schools rejected him or lost interest."
Having read the entire suit, I think NU basketball is in trouble......enough smoke that there may be fire. Welcome to Big Time Basketball.
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Exactly. As I told villox last night. *now* I believe we can make the Tourney!
This is probably best answered by actual lawyers here, but... is it normal that complaints use words like "shady" or "shot clock" in a legal filing? Doesn't seem terribly professional to me and makes me wonder about the lawyers involved.
Edit: this seems to be another situation where an NU athlete gets pulled into another person's fight, this one against the NCAA's transfer rules. The similarities are strong enough my first thought was to wonder whether Kain is directly involved.
I was thinking the same thing... The whole thing was really wishy washy to me. Not saying it is or isn't true, but the letter read like a hack wrote it IMO
Well...last person you want to post but...
1. Sounds like true or false, this event solidifies that CCC and then the AD mishandled the JV situation. This has been my point from two summers ago - one I took much heat for. Even if all untrue, they should never have played their cards so to allow this thing to devolve this way.
2. Sounds like CCC failed to fill a schollie for this year. And that means we have two left for next year, not one. And not many Plan A options. I really hope Eastern falls our way. Otherwise, I cannot see how we don't end up with the lowest ranked CCC recruit in this class (otherwise known as a project, a reach, etc) and a transfer.
3. How will this controversy impact recruiting? How long before NU goes on the offense with a response? I know, geniuses like walker and Mike will disregard every allegation and replace their heads into the sand, but HS kids won't. HRC showed what happens when you refuse to respond to allegations. NU has to respond.
4. Clearly JV was a poor choice to recruit and a poor character to recruit. But once here, CCC should have kept him on the bench until he broke some rules and could be run out. Don't give me chemistry crap - overrated and this team has not gone to the post season anyway. Would you rather have poison ivy at the end of the bench or this current explosion - death is not an option...
I really hope the allegations are largely untrue and those that prove to be true are a good distance from CCC. But if not, time to talk who we like for the next coach and AD. I can't imagine another NCAA investigation at NU after the betting scandal. Ugggg
1. Sounds like true or false, this event solidifies that CCC and then the AD mishandled the JV situation. This has been my point from two summers ago - one I took much heat for. Even if all untrue, they should never have played their cards so to allow this thing to devolve this way.
2. Sounds like CCC failed to fill a schollie for this year. And that means we have two left for next year, not one. And not many Plan A options. I really hope Eastern falls our way. Otherwise, I cannot see how we don't end up with the lowest ranked CCC recruit in this class (otherwise known as a project, a reach, etc) and a transfer.
3. How will this controversy impact recruiting? How long before NU goes on the offense with a response? I know, geniuses like walker and Mike will disregard every allegation and replace their heads into the sand, but HS kids won't. HRC showed what happens when you refuse to respond to allegations. NU has to respond.
4. Clearly JV was a poor choice to recruit and a poor character to recruit. But once here, CCC should have kept him on the bench until he broke some rules and could be run out. Don't give me chemistry crap - overrated and this team has not gone to the post season anyway. Would you rather have poison ivy at the end of the bench or this current explosion - death is not an option...
I really hope the allegations are largely untrue and those that prove to be true are a good distance from CCC. But if not, time to talk who we like for the next coach and AD. I can't imagine another NCAA investigation at NU after the betting scandal. Ugggg
Donald Trump wrote it is his spare time at 3 in the morning Sunday night.......
Interesting to me that the introduction of the most recent complaints are all essentially the same:
https://www.hbsslaw.com/cases/ncaa---antitrust
Still seems a situation where Vassar got caught up in an ongoing effort by a class action law firm, but I suppose time will tell.
I have consistently defended Vassar on this board for choosing to stay at NU and use the schollie to get his degree. Getting the sheepskin, in my opinion, is the sole focus of student athletes.
After looking over the complaint I am now a critic of Vassar. This suit has nothing to do with academics.
Yes, I believe NU coaches showed Vassar the door. The suit says that Collins berated Vassar by telling him he "sucked at basketball." I watched Vassar play and Collins wasn't berating Vassar, he actually sucked. Vassar very quickly turned out to be less of a talent than NU thought and than Vassar himself represented. I don't know this, but it's a guess that Vassar was also uncoachable and poison to team chemistry.
NU coaches showed Vassar the door and then NU did the right thing. NU stepped in and engineered a way for Vassar to continue on at one of the top academic schools in the country and get his degree for free. As a parent paying $60k a year to send his child to college, a lesser college than NU, I'd take that in a heartbeat. My kid trains and competes for his school for free. I'd take a $10k discount and be delighted.
Even though Vassar isn't good enough to play for NU, he wants to train with the team, use the facilities, receive medical treatment and all of the other benefits that athletes receive. The suit says that it is a hardship that he now has to register for classes with regular students. And that he longer can take summer classes for free. Even though he's not on a team.
I now have no questions why Collins wanted this kid a million miles from his program.
We really need to look at the generation of kids that we're raising and the values that we're instilling.
After looking over the complaint I am now a critic of Vassar. This suit has nothing to do with academics.
Yes, I believe NU coaches showed Vassar the door. The suit says that Collins berated Vassar by telling him he "sucked at basketball." I watched Vassar play and Collins wasn't berating Vassar, he actually sucked. Vassar very quickly turned out to be less of a talent than NU thought and than Vassar himself represented. I don't know this, but it's a guess that Vassar was also uncoachable and poison to team chemistry.
NU coaches showed Vassar the door and then NU did the right thing. NU stepped in and engineered a way for Vassar to continue on at one of the top academic schools in the country and get his degree for free. As a parent paying $60k a year to send his child to college, a lesser college than NU, I'd take that in a heartbeat. My kid trains and competes for his school for free. I'd take a $10k discount and be delighted.
Even though Vassar isn't good enough to play for NU, he wants to train with the team, use the facilities, receive medical treatment and all of the other benefits that athletes receive. The suit says that it is a hardship that he now has to register for classes with regular students. And that he longer can take summer classes for free. Even though he's not on a team.
I now have no questions why Collins wanted this kid a million miles from his program.
We really need to look at the generation of kids that we're raising and the values that we're instilling.
The anti-trust issue will likely not be successful and doesn't interest me in the least. While I think athletes should be able to transfer one time without sitting out. everyone knows the rules and if you don't like it too bad.
JV's claims against NU are very disturbing. I have to admit I had a hard time watching the Collins post-game presser with the stuff I had read in the suit in mind.....
Another point best answered by actual lawyers, but I think all the things about what Vassar has lost is that establishing "harm" is a critical point in antitrust suits.
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