I would agree that CC has taken the team to levels unheard of by BC. Why are you have trouble accepting that? Will you EVER accept it?
Bill Carmody
- Thread starter chicagocatfan24
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I would agree that CC has taken the team to levels unheard of by BC. Why are you have trouble accepting that? Will you EVER accept it?
I'm guessing you weren't one of the guys sounding cautious notes on the bitcoin craze, were you?
It was subtle with a capital "S." Perhaps the most subtle troll job since Milo Yiannopolous stealthily caused 500 Berkeley SJWs heads to explode when he pointed out he is gay and loves black men on his stop there. Sneaky. You'd almost have to look twice just to see it coming.
I don't think that anybody in this thread said that at all. I really like Coach Carmody, but like I said in my post, I don't think he would still be here no matter what. His time here was just over, even if some of his fans weren't ready to say goodbye. It's like that with many coaching regimes. I'm not sure that anybody thinks that he should still be at Northwestern in 2017-18, and I'm not even talking about "in lieu of what Coach Chris has done." I think that he would have been done here by now, regardless of his successor.
I would be really surprised, but you know, McIntosh and Lindsey aren't really replaceable at this juncture and so much rides on their health. I won't crucify Coach Chris if injuries get in the way.
I've written more generously of Carmody in the past (like thanking him for his contributions), but in retrospect, and objectively speaking, Carmody blew chunks. He wasn't even a mediocre coach when you consider that we forgot how to play D and rebound and his offense was a gimmick that produced nothing for us in the stretch. His recruiting was ridiculously bad. Regardless of what you think of CCC, he at least shows up when recruits are on campus.
We are so much better off without that joke of a coach, I'm just sorry we didn't get rid of him much earlier. Instead he was given 13 years that simply wasted time. There was nothing good to come out of Carmody having been here in my opinion. I know there are some generous fans that seem to think we couldn't be where we are today without him but I'm not one of them. We are here today despite Bill Carmody, not because of him. All credit to CCC and Jim Phillips. None to Bill Carmody. That's my view, and I'm sticking with it. People are welcome to their own opinions, no matter how wrong they may be.
Nor I. Well said. I'd love a Sweet Sixteen berth as well, but whatever happens this season, this program's arrow is undeniably pointing straight up.
Man do I hate this thread. Really wish there was a rant board for it. There is so much positive going on with NU hoops right now that we could be discussing, why in the world people love to look backwards is beyond me. What good does it do for any of us or the program? A nice doctoral thesis somewhere in here for a Psych scholar. I hope recruits or their families don't come to this board and see a fanbase, for some weird reason, still stuck in the past, unprepared to accept the new state of the program, its new culture, and be genuinely positive. One that would rather debate the various merits of a 13 year period of mediocrity. For me, seeing this thread continue to live at the top of the board is simply a sad statement for NU Hoops fandom. Now, I'll stop contributing to it. My last post on this thread, period.
You haven't watched much of the Cubs this summer, have you?
The beauty of sports is that nothing is automatic. I could see the loss of Lumpkin's defense as having a similar effect to strongly relying on a left-fielder with 300 lifetime ABs. I dont expect it, but it wouldn't stun me.
As Virginia pointed out, injuries can play a big role by the time March roles around. Tournament seeding/match ups are another unknown. The first few rounds of the dance can be a total crapshoot, regardless of how talented/experienced a given team is. It's just the nature of a single elimination tournament and something to keep in mind.
It's pretty exciting that we can even talk about this now.
As for the rest of the thread...
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Don't bring this over to our Rant Board. We have amicable, respectful conversations over there in comparison.
Ya think? 13 years wasn't enough, that 17 would have been the line????
"His time here was just over, even if some of his fans weren't ready to say goodbye."
Only the deeply deluded thought this chump did anything remotely close to the work that you'd expect to be in a conversation to keeping his job. He was terrible. 13 years. Sheesh. Collins is here 4 years and this is what you get. The same people who wanted to keep Carmody thought it would be impossible to get recruits that were wanted by anyone else to come here. Thought that getting to the NIT was as good as we could expect. That the Dance was something that we could never aspire to get to. Excuses, excuses, excuses why we couldn't get it done.
And don't give me that BS about being handed a program ready to take off. CCC was handed jack. Ricky Byrdsong was handed a gift. KON was handed a gift. Fine, Bill Carmody wasn't handed much, but it wasn't any worse than what CCC got. 4 years in, and you see what a competent coach can give you. Worlds better than anything that chump gave us in 13. Yes, I'm bitter. I'm bitter for having to be 13 years older to see us get to this stage.
Not really sure why a good post by YesterdaysCat warranted this type of response.
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The notion that someone feels the need to say that 17 years is the line drawn in the sand where no one might question whether Carmody should still be here or not - that is what compelled me to speak out.
As you well should be. I'm none too pleased with my own contributions here, but here we are. Let us pledge together to never bring this up ever again. No more jokes. No more sarcasm. Now, you know what putridness can be brought to the surface on this topic. What is guffaws and chuckles for some, is tormenting pain for others. For those who had to bear witness to it, I'm sorry that it happened.
Yeah...he/she never that said that.
The comment was more along the lines of "Carmody probably wouldn't even be here anyways, so what's the point of all of the hand wringing".
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I definitely agree that it was time to move on from BC with an up and comer like CCC available. Timing was right when it occurred but partly because CCC was ready to make a move, and it was a logical time to part ways. (Bring back BC and perhaps he makes it to the dance and it becomes difficult to move on) But being fair to BC, it is likely that CCC or other candidates of his caliber would have been unlikely to come without BC taking us from A to B In the past, coach K had always advised his assistants to stay away from NU basically telling them it would be a burial ground for up and coming coaches..
I agree it was frustrating to see BCs lack of recruiting and his D (cause by his weak recruiting) But he did get us to point B.
Thank you. We all know that English is not E Cat's first language and sometimes as a result he completely misreads or doesn't bother to read posts before launching into tirades that object to content that wasn't even in the original post. You just gotta shake your head.
Usually when a previous coach is dismissed, the next guy inherits a bad team.
Look at Bill Foster. He arrived and found that he had Shon Morris and a bunch of oft-injured dudes. That's really bad. That's the real definition of "jack." Not really Falk's fault; everybody got hurt.
Or speaking of Falk, he had worse than jack. He had Jim Stack coming in, but nobody returning who could carry the team. He inherited zilch. At least he left behind an experienced Morris for Foster.
Chris got Demps, Drew, Sanjay, Olah, and Cobb. I don't call that "jack" by comparison. Put Juice or McIntosh on that squad and it's an NIT group. Carmody and O'Neill inherited some good pieces, too. That's a far cry from what Foster and Falk "inherited."
Try to have some perspective.
I think most of the Carmody supporters have long moved on and appreciate the improvement in NU basketball that Coach Collins has provided
I believe the Carmody haters keep these threads alive. EC's above post that suggests that Carmody was a poor x and O guy is typical of that mindset. Carmody probably had the worst talent of any Power 5 school but was competitive most games because of the systems he employed offensively and defensively. I don't think anyone on this board believes that NU could have played effective man 2 man D, hit the offensive and defensive glass hard, and run on offense with the talent BC had available to him
He was responsible for the talent he assembled and ultimately paid the price for his recruiting deficiencies but I doubt there is another coach who could have done better with the same talent level.
I agree this thread should die
Foster and Falk likely had worse than jack. That was before my time (though I was lucky enough to witness the latter Foster years, beginning with an 0-fer B1G campaign).
My point only was that it wasn't as if CCC was handed an NIT ready team. He wasn't. Sanjay and Taphorn were the only pieces he had for his NCAA team, everyone else was CCC recruited, and even then in those two guys, you got a defensive hustle guy and a 3 pt shooter off the bench. I'm not undermining their contributions, but they were hardly the core of the team. I'm understanding and appreciating Sanjay as the glue guy and how valuable that is, but honestly, I don't think anyone expects us to lose nearly as much as we will gain this year with Falzon, Ivanaukus and Gaines. Even then, neither Sanjay nor Taphorn played for anyone but Collins, so very arguably they were shaped entirely by CCC even if they were brought in by his predecessor. It's fair to say that last year's milestone making team was built from the ground up by CCC, with little contribution by his predecessor. That certainly can't be said for Byrdsong or KON. And whether he got a better deck or not than Carmody, Falk, or Foster isn't the point. The point is, he didn't get dealt much of hand and he got us to the promised land on the basis of his work alone - not any gift that his predecessor may have given him.
I realize you weren't arguing otherwise, but I was pre-empting a point often made by the Carmody fans. A point that bothers me, because Carmody deserves none of the credit for what CCC accomplished here.
Carmody deserves the credit for making the NU job somewhat relevant/appealing enough that CC would consider taking it. Even Chris himself has more or less said that. Hdhntr's "point A to B" take is spot on in that regard.
That, in no way, takes anything away from what Collins has done for this program in only four years. An amazing feat for sure.
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Ashamed, maybe
But can't imagine you are surprised.
Collins was being gracious. He'd been eyeing this job for a while. Hometown, no expectations, chance to become a legend.
If someone as accomplished as Bill Foster could come to NU despite all the history, so could CCC. And CCC wasn't the first assistant from a perennial power to be lured to NU. Byrdsong and KON were both proteges of Lute Olson. Only difference was that CCC was also coming home to Chicago.
Had Collins came in after Foster, Byrdsong, and even KON, he'd still have gotten us here. Arguably, had he come in after Foster or Byrdsong (because of Eschmeyer, so really because of Foster again), we'd actually be further ahead.
Wait, WHAT? All three guys that you've mentioned were already head coaches when they were hired at NU.
Besides that, all of us who were alive back then know the story with Foster. We weren't hiring an up-and-coming guy. Did you know that Byrdsong's record at Detroit Mercy was 30 games below .500? Or that Marquette and Tennessee missed O'Neill less than we miss him?
Chris Collins could have picked a different time and place to launch his head coaching career. Jim told him that NU had plans to upgrade the arena and recruiting budget and some thoughts about a long-term development plan.
We will never know if Chris would have taken the job if it was totally crappy like it usually was.
Regardless, your comparison and argument are totally irrelevant. Most head coaches in the power conferences have an impressive guy at the top of the coaching tree. How do you think guys get HC jobs in D-I basketball?
Bottom line, none of the three guys that you listed is close to a good comparison to Chris, in terms of their career at the time that they were hired by NU. You're insulting Chris.
Well, let's not mince words. Since you're saying he's a liar, you're definitely insulting him.
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Except where you are saying I'm insulting him and calling him a liar, I can see where you're coming from.
I'll acknowledge that when Foster was brought in, I wasn't even an NU fan. it's just as valid to say that all of those coaches were previously head coaches, while Collins didn't have any coaching experience at all.
In the end though, I don't think it mattered what Carmody did at NU. CCC wasn't given a better platform from which to build. 13 years of futility could just as well be interpreted (as many on the board had at that time) that this place was cursed and unsalvageable.
And I think saying a guy was being gracious isn't insulting him.
That's not even close to the atmosphere around the program at the time. I realize that you're really knowledgeable about only a 4-year period of NU basketball, but familiarize yourself with the Falk years. He was a good coach, an alumn, one of the best players that we ever produced. The arena was "brand new" so to speak. He recruited top guys. Seriously, some really good prospects. When Falk left, nobody wanted to coach at Northwestern. The shine was off the arena by then. The injuries and the losing had decimated the talent level. Like I said before, we had Shon and that's it. Really.
You can't begin to compare 1986 (when Falk departed) to 2013 (when Carmody departed). Everybody has heard about Jim Calhoun (Northeastern at the time) turning down NU at that point. Bob Wenzel, a Foster protege, also interviewed. And that's it. I don't know if Wenzel interviewed and said that he didn't want it but that maybe Bill wanted it. Foster was an easy choice but the only one.
Or how about fast-forwarding to 1993. AD Corrie left before we picked a head coach. Foster had been kicked upstairs and was a lame duck essentially but running the search committee since nobody else could do it. We interviewed Tommy Amaker (turned it down) and Mike Deane (turned it down, later went to Marquette where he succeeded O'Neill!). It came down to Detroit Mercy's HC and Delaware's HC and neither one of them was a hot commodity. It was almost summer when Byrd took the job.
In other words, nobody with a career arc on the rise wanted the job in 1986 or 1993. We don't know who the candidates could have been in 2013, but it was a far cry from those coaching searches. Those searches were a freaking nightmare.
In those days, nobody thought that a coach could win at NU due to the admissions standards. At least Coach Carmody got us to the point where people could say, "Hmm, they're basically a step or two away. It might be doable."
Of course, we're fortunate that Chris embraced the challenge and I don't really know it's always necessary for you to piss on the legacy of Carmody or Randy Walker in football. You don't have to do that to salute Chris or Pat.
Many on this board at the time, felt he deserved one more year. IN that year, he would have had a team with the most depth he had had with a top recruit in Sina as well as Sobo, Drew, Cobb, Sanjay, Olah and a couple guys who transferred.. And had he been able to take that group to the dance, it would have been really hard to get rid of him for at least a couple years. . And by the time you could, (likely around now) unlikely CCC would have been available.
It was much less about "deserved one more year" and more about "he gave the killing fields that were NU mens' bball double digit years and stabilized what had been a wreck, so let him see through to the end of Crawford and Cobb." And, he's funny as hell.
But at the very same time, and I think this doesn't get discussed enough, Phillips should have been allowed to choose his own people. I'm not a big Phillips fan. Not a detractor, but I don't think he walked across Lake Michigan. Never the less, he was senior to Carmody and should be allowed to choose his own team if he's going to be judged by their performance.
So, once Carmody was out it was "go Chris Collins."
Hard to argue that Phillips hadn't given it enough time.
Wow, just wow.
How did he deserve one more year after 13? What did that team do (minus Sina, whom you may have missed from the analyst who recently visited was utterly overrated and has done pretty much nothing in college career) in Collins's first year that makes you think they would have made it to the Dance? The Carmody X's and O's including that gimmick offense would have pushed that 13 win team over the top? Really?
I'll concede on Falk (like I said, I didn't know NU basketball at that time, though not sure what you meant by the 4 years - I was at NU on campus as a student for a total of 7 years in two different periods starting in 1989).
I realize I don't have to piss on Carmody or Randy Walker's legacies to salute Chris or Pat. That's not why I criticize those regimes. I criticize them because they mired us in mediocrity, failed to take us to another level (though arguably Fitzgerald needs to get his ass in gear as well), and ultimately gave their supporters excuses as to why NU couldn't be better than they were. People literally thought our natural lot in life was a minor bowl (loss) and 6 or 7 win seasons. And more than one poster on this board thought we could never make it to the tourney, much less contend for the B1G title (which is coming, as early as this year). It took a Gary Barnett who understand what winning national championships to build a winner at NU. For what he did at NU football, I'll be forever grateful. Same with Chris Collins for basketball, though I'm still looking forward to the day for him to deliver our first B1G title in memory and a Final Four and dareIsay a National Championship. It takes someone who has been to the top of the mountain to get us there, to believe it is possible. I never thought Walker or Carmody had the chops nor put the bar high enough on the field/court. I thought, and knew there could be so much more. (Barnett proved it in football, and Collins proved it in hoops). That's why you don't hear me doling out hosannas for their "legacies" here.
I'll chip in my own thoughts, just because:
- Phillips should have fired Carmody instead of giving him that two-year extension as a ten-year head coach.
That two-year non-commitment meant that NU was promising recruits that the coaching staff will be here for your freshman year, and that's all we can guarantee. That's a huge uphill battle. (I think Taphorn was the only recruit that final season.)
As @Medill90 stated, Phillips had the right to hire his own guy - he should have taken it then.
I was against the firing at the time, but there is no doubt that the Collins ceiling is higher than the Carmody ceiling. We'll never be able to compare floors, but that's due to Carmody's relative success at NU.
- Phillips should have fired Carmody instead of giving him that two-year extension as a ten-year head coach.
That two-year non-commitment meant that NU was promising recruits that the coaching staff will be here for your freshman year, and that's all we can guarantee. That's a huge uphill battle. (I think Taphorn was the only recruit that final season.)
As @Medill90 stated, Phillips had the right to hire his own guy - he should have taken it then.
I was against the firing at the time, but there is no doubt that the Collins ceiling is higher than the Carmody ceiling. We'll never be able to compare floors, but that's due to Carmody's relative success at NU.
Not just his ceiling. He's already taken NU further than any previous coach in the modern era in just 4 seasons.
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Walker won a Big Ten championship, something Fitz has failed to even come close to achieving in a tenure whose length is approaching Carmody's, and yet I don't hear you banging the drum to run Fitz out on a rail.
I just said there were many on the board that felt this way. Did not ever indicate I was one of them I could understand their point of view and if they kept him I would have understood. There were a number of posters that were quite upset with the change (and potential danger of falling back into oblivion) And while I understood their position, I felt it was a perfect time to move on because staying with BC at that time could have handcuffed Phillips. (got to give him multiyear contract or it hurts recruiting, how could you fire the guy that finally got us to Dance were some of the arguments Phillips would likely have faced.)
As far as that team, they were recruited for BCs system. Not CCCs. Likely that group could have performed better under BCs system than they did under CCCs system. Examples Sobo did well in BCs system, not so much in CCCs. Abrahamson, same story. And with Sina deciding not to come etc, we played pretty short handed that first year. Could we have made it that year? Maybe but in any event, even getting back to NIT would likely have tied Phillips hands with a long term BC deal. That is why I felt at the time, it was time to move on. Am I happy Phillips decided to roll the dice and move on? Absolutely. Would I have understood if we didn't? Yes. But realize, an awful lot of the move needed to be because of who Phillips felt he could get.
