Can you kindly start referring to CCC as Saint CCC going forward? Some consistency would be refreshing.
At least they both actually accomplished something, eh? Unlike a certain other former basketball coach?
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Can you kindly start referring to CCC as Saint CCC going forward? Some consistency would be refreshing.
If you win zero conference games, it can’t get worse.
Sure it can. You can have no talent on the roster and be three or four recruiting classes from even getting enough kids on the team who even have the potential to develop and compete. You can have zero investment in program by the administration and/or the fans where getting those recruits is an even more challenging task. You can squander what should be and is predicted to be one of the most successful seasons in the program’s history (‘01 and ‘13), enter the year on the national stage in terms of recognition, and win 4 and 5 games respectfully, not even earning a bid to a lowest tier bowl game. You can have a player die tragically, and see your program eviscerated for it in the local and national media, even causing the most ardent fans to question how the program is being run.
All those I’d consider lower points than a zero win Big Ten season, that was two seasons away from a Big Ten Championship.
Rick Venturi would beg to differ.......If you win zero conference games, it can’t get worse.
How have we done in games to win the Division? Oh I forgot, we have not had any? He has talked of championships and being ready to play. I guess in some folks minds, those wins make up for the shellacking at Duke. I guess you would call those 3 wins significant since it got us to that illustrious game against that storied football program, Kentucky, where I received over 10 texts while at a high school wrestling match basically saying, "WTF, Fitz?" about his coaching decisions.
I asked a specific question about your viewpoint, "Do you think he will get NU to the B10 title game in next five years?"
Just to note, I will continue to go the games and get tickets because we have a good tailgate group and the games are fun. We have no expectations of the program at all which I think is valid based on prior years/results. Those wins you mentioned were a lot of fun. Nebby fans after the game thanked us so they could fire their coach because of his bone headed decision making. However, the most fun win was watching Minny give up during the 2nd quarter during the cold and rain.
I do. I will happily take this bet...may be wrong, may be right, but willing to take it. What are the stakes?How have we done in games to win the Division? Oh I forgot, we have not had any? He has talked of championships and being ready to play. I guess in some folks minds, those wins make up for the shellacking at Duke. I guess you would call those 3 wins significant since it got us to that illustrious game against that storied football program, Kentucky, where I received over 10 texts while at a high school wrestling match basically saying, "WTF, Fitz?" about his coaching decisions.
I asked a specific question about your viewpoint, "Do you think he will get NU to the B10 title game in next five years?"
Just to note, I will continue to go the games and get tickets because we have a good tailgate group and the games are fun. We have no expectations of the program at all which I think is valid based on prior years/results. Those wins you mentioned were a lot of fun. Nebby fans after the game thanked us so they could fire their coach because of his bone headed decision making. However, the most fun win was watching Minny give up during the 2nd quarter during the cold and rain.
No, that would be Saint Bill.
At least they both actually accomplished something, eh? Unlike a certain other former basketball coach?
I think BC accomplished something, just not enough, given the time he was given.
Nah, you don’t bother me much despite you habit of jumping into protect mode for certain posters that you feel have been wronged. One an attorney, always an attorney I guess.No, Bill did not get us to the Dance like Barnett got us to the Rose Bowl. Try again. I’m not a BC guy, just a guy you don’t like. Can’t just start putting me in all the buckets representing things you don’t like.
Look, Dude, this is why I barely come to this board, this is simply not a 'clear thinking' site. These dopes have cognitive dissonance and sadly compared this recruit, who never played tackle, to Streif, then claim that Fitz is doing a helluva job recruiting and that when posters like me say "Well, not really", they claim my opinion is blasphemy and they rebuke me in the name of Fitz. The reality is that most professional recruiters simply aren't looking at most of our recruits as the raw talent isn't condusive for most "Top Programs" to offer the majority of our recruits. Just gets annoying when all the objective data and all of the professional recruiters and all of the guru sites like rivals that invest countless $$$ in this field give low marks to ranking our team and our players. Then when our players graduate, it happens all over again, i.e., the pro scouts (That is people who actually get pad and not whiffs like gocatsgo) stand down on our players except for the occasional player who gets drafted before the 6th round. The counter argument to all of this is Siemien and other exceptions. But arguments aren't won by standing on exceptions.No, Bill did not get us to the Dance like Barnett got us to the Rose Bowl. Try again. I’m not a BC guy, just a guy you don’t like. Can’t just start putting me in all the buckets representing things you don’t like.
Truth.Look, Dude, this is why I barely come to this board, this is simply not a 'clear thinking' site. These dopes have cognitive dissonance and sadly compared this recruit, who never played tackle, to Streif, then claim that Fitz is doing a helluva job recruiting and that when posters like me say "Well, not really", they claim my opinion is blasphemy and they rebuke me in the name of Fitz. The reality is that most professional recruiters simply aren't looking at most of our recruits as the raw talent isn't condusive for most "Top Programs" to offer the majority of our recruits. Just gets annoying when all the objective data and all of the professional recruiters and all of the guru sites like rivals that invest countless $$$ in this field give low marks to ranking our team and our players. Then when our players graduate, it happens all over again, i.e., the pro scouts (That is people who actually get pad and not whiffs like gocatsgo) stand down on our players except for the occasional player who gets drafted before the 6th round. The counter argument to all of this is Siemien and other exceptions. But arguments aren't won by standing on exceptions.
This NU class is, well, disappointing to me. I think Fitz needs more to learn, something is wrong. I think we should be competing ROUTINELY with the "Top Programs" instead of winning or losing battles to Vandy, Purdue, or Minny. Gary did it, why can't Fitz? Isn't Fitz in better position, i.e., facilities, 10 win seasons, bowl victories? How come he can't close like Barnett on recruiting?
The good news is that Fitz gets more out of less, and although he isn't close to the recruiter that Barnett was, he does bring in better quality classes than Walker did. And for the pollyannas who claim that everything will change when the weight room is done, I say hogwash. NU is better than this. It doesn't need a weight room to make that big of a difference. NU is better than what Fitz is bringing in. NU wasn't better than what Gary was bringing in. Frankly, I couldn't believe any "Top Stud" would have wanted to come here in the 90s with crapola lockerrooms, etc. Fitz has been given the "Golden Key" but he has to step up the recruiting. I mean, if he wants fans to sit in seats, he needs to win the big games under the lights. He's been "Just a bit outside" on games that really mattered. That said, I like Fitz and I'm not upset about his recruiting, I just had to check some pollyannas whose ignorance just was thoroughly insulting to me. No, our recruiting isn't great. It's just ok and certainly nothing to write home about. If we ever got a turnkey stud, I'd be making some phone calls telling people "Hey, did you see who NU got?" Sorry, we have some nice players but nothing wow to make any call about.
But, I saw some of your post. Look, you aren't going to win any arguments with those who are suffering the "Fitz Delusion". I don't think they are being intellectually dishonest either, I just think they are full blown deluded.
I'll settle if he just doesn't get knocked out of Division contention after the 6th game of the year. If he is going to call out fans, then he needs to "Man Up". Fans aren't going to spoil him like PHillips. We expect him to put his big boy pants on.How many of those newbies became season ticket holders? How many of the new season ticket holders for this year are ND fans since tix are cheap?
Sorry, but the appeal of Fitz and the novelty of NU as the lovable underdog is gone.Fitz and the program were put on the prime time stage with night home games against PSU, Michigan, and OSU. How did we do? NU fans counter that with we beat MIss State and Kentucky in Bowl games. Yes, but you lost Illinois State. Can’t remember, as I sit here at a wrestling meet, a really significant win, other than at Nebby with Colter at QB.
I am sorry, but his bad game coaching decisions are a trait. I do not think such consistent judgment calls would be accepted in NU operating rooms or of a practicing trial attorney. He now has no excuses with the new facility. Do you think he will get NU to the B10 title game in next five years?
After the 6th game NU will have played @Purdue, Michigan, @MSU and Nebraska. Cats will need to be at least 3-1 in B1G play to remain in West contention. Wisconsin has Michigan, @PSU and Rutgers for their crossover games, so Cats need to match them at Wisky will at least be 2-1 in those 3.I'll settle if he just doesn't get knocked out of Division contention after the 6th game of the year. If he is going to call out fans, then he needs to "Man Up". Fans aren't going to spoil him like PHillips. We expect him to put his big boy pants on.
I do. I will happily take this bet...may be wrong, may be right, but willing to take it. What are the stakes?
Gary commonly got top 30 even before the rose bowl. His best was after the rose bowl where he got #12 by Lemming. Lemming was pretty high on Damien. And Gary not only got studs, with CRAP facilities, he also lost studs. Grant Irons, Darrell Campbell? and a host of others who came down to us and one other Stud Program.And I sincerely doubt that any of Gary's prior classes were top 25. Did get some top notch guys like Napoleon Harris after that but he whiffed big time on quarterbacks. Fortunately, Zak Kustok transferred in from Notre Dame (thanks in part to Barnett's earlier contact), but I think it's revisionist history to claim Gary was beating out the big boys for most of his recruits, especially leading up to the two championship seasons. The third "championship" deserves a big asterisk as far as I'm concerned. Blew a chance at the Rose Bowl with an embarrassing beatdown by a bad Iowa team and then there was the Alamo Bowl....
So you have 0 expectations for the team, only go to go games because of a good tailgate group, bash the program and coach, but are not willing to stand by your prediction because you’re a season ticket holder? What? I mean, bless you because you still go to games and the more the merrier, but we have some of the most, ahem, “interesting” fans out there.Thanks for the offer, but I don’t bet against a team for which I have season tickets. I would love for Fitz to get there since I expect he will the coach for the next 5 years.
So let me see if I understand. ‘Absolute record’ is valid when citing that as the ONLY reason for your critique that Barnett ‘put the program in the ground’ in ‘93 and ‘98, yet ‘absolute record’ is less valid when using it to point out that the ‘97 season was the third best NU had attained in decades.
Further, when comparing the coaching success/failures of the ‘97-‘98 seasons under Barnett vs. the ‘01-‘02 seasons under Walker or ‘13-‘14 seasons under Fitzgerald, how well the seasons adhered to the message of a marketing campaign (Expect Victory) is more important in your comparative assessment than the number of starters at skill positions each coach had returning in the comparative year?
One of the dumber things he said ever. The program was not in the ground. If Barnett hadn't recruited who he recruited, we would not have had a 3rd B1G title in 6 years. I argue we'd have had more after he left that we did, especially given what he accomplished at CU afterwards (and all the players who transferred or decommitted afterwards) but I guess we'll never know for sure.
Amazing how you discount a Big Ten Championship. Well, I guess the OSU teams of Archie Griffin and Big Ten Champs sucked because USC beat them 42-17 one year. Geez.How’d that personnel do against a 9-2(6-2) Nebraska team?
So NITs are good enough for you?
Hypocrite.
Amazing how you discount a Big Ten Championship. Well, I guess the OSU teams of Archie Griffin and Big Ten Champs sucked because USC beat them 42-17 one year. Geez.
Amazing how you discount a Big Ten Championship. Well, I guess the OSU teams of Archie Griffin and Big Ten Champs sucked because USC beat them 42-17 one year. Geez.
NITs are like non New Years Day Bowl or better, Mr. Double Standard. You still loving the Motor City Bowl?
So you have 0 expectations for the team, only go to go games because of a good tailgate group, bash the program and coach, but are not willing to stand by your prediction because you’re a season ticket holder? What? I mean, bless you because you still go to games and the more the merrier, but we have some of the most, ahem, “interesting” fans out there.
One of the dumber things he said ever. The program was not in the ground. If Barnett hadn't recruited who he recruited, we would not have had a 3rd B1G title in 6 years. I argue we'd have had more after he left that we did, especially given what he accomplished at CU afterwards (and all the players who transferred or decommitted afterwards) but I guess we'll never know for sure.
I agree. It is much harder to get to a basketball post-season tournament than a bowl game. More than half the Division 1 FB programs get to a bowl.I do not think those are equivalent. At all.
I do not think those are equivalent. At all.
Didn't we just go 10-3, winning our last eight in a row and win our second straight bowl game (something never done here before)? Why all the negativity?
We would not have had a third B1G title in six years if Wilson and Walker hadn’t come up with what we now know as the modern spread and brought in a QB who could actually run it.
But GB's best class, which included DA, Napo, Souza, Kreinbrink, etc. really did not deliver much on the field beyond the 2000 team what won the B1G.
Perhaps, though we will never really know. Nevermind that Kustok found Walker via Barnett. What we do know is that Walker could never win any B1G titles with his own recruits. And we know that Barnett could win conference championships at NU with his own recruits and after NU with his own recruits. Betting that he couldn't do better with his own recruits than Walker could or as well as he had done previous and since isn't a smart man's bet. And that's not even counting the kids that transferred and decommitted in the wake of his departure.
Is there any credit you won't give to Barnett?
Wilson and Walker put in the spread because the personnel Barnett recruited wasn't good enough to win running a traditional, pro-style offense.
That's a hoot. I'm only giving credit to Barnett for recruiting the only classes that were chiefly responsible for B1G titles in any of our lifetimes. It's not really subjective. It's irrefutable.
FWIW, it is a recruiting discussion. On that point, Barnett gets all the credit in the world. He crushed Walker and crushes Fitz in that department. We were at our apex in recruiting capability during the Barnett years, and that's a plain fact, backed up by Championship rings. I have always said that Walker's offensive coaching and his toughness prior to the Wheeler tragedy were his fortes, his loyalty to a crap DC (which unfortunately has rubbed off on Fitz, the unflinching loyalty in assistants despite sheer incompetence, that is) and his Carmodyesque recruiting skills and apathy were his shortcomings.
Gary commonly got top 30 even before the rose bowl. His best was after the rose bowl where he got #12 by Lemming. Lemming was pretty high on Damien. And Gary not only got studs, with CRAP facilities, he also lost studs. Grant Irons, Darrell Campbell? and a host of others who came down to us and one other Stud Program.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...239_1_coach-barnett-northwestern-gary-barnett
Our recruiting was so competitive that I used to tune in to the sports channels etc because the type of recruits we were after are the type that announce press conferences on sports channels. I remember I was crushed when OJ somebody from Nequa Valley? did his press conference on TV and announced Stanford over us. This stuff was all over the local news, etc.
Today, $300 million later, we aren't in the running for squat and are already striking out over our top 30 targets. Never mind that it isn't like Fitz even targets many Top players to start with. Whatever the case, my original statement is objective and sound, i.e., you will NOT win big ten chamionships without Top talent, and it follows that all 3 of our BT championships had classes ranked in the top 25. I think Fitz all time best ranking was 45.
Gary commonly got top 30 even before the rose bowl. His best was after the rose bowl where he got #12 by Lemming. Lemming was pretty high on Damien. And Gary not only got studs, with CRAP facilities, he also lost studs. Grant Irons, Darrell Campbell? and a host of others who came down to us and one other Stud Program.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...239_1_coach-barnett-northwestern-gary-barnett
Our recruiting was so competitive that I used to tune in to the sports channels etc because the type of recruits we were after are the type that announce press conferences on sports channels. I remember I was crushed when OJ somebody from Nequa Valley? did his press conference on TV and announced Stanford over us. This stuff was all over the local news, etc.
Today, $300 million later, we aren't in the running for squat and are already striking out over our top 30 targets. Never mind that it isn't like Fitz even targets many Top players to start with. Whatever the case, my original statement is objective and sound, i.e., you will NOT win big ten chamionships without Top talent, and it follows that all 3 of our BT championships had classes ranked in the top 25. I think Fitz all time best ranking was 45.
The crazy thing is the apologists are talking about how we're slowly building the foundation for better things to come. What timeline are they working with? It's been a Carmody era that Fitz has had to do something. To win a title. Gary did that with a much worse hand, with nothing in terms of facilities and fan backing. Both in terms of recruiting classes as well as B1G championships.
You know you are dealing with delusion when you have people who ignore what Gary accomplished despite having a much worse hand dealt to him and who fail to connect the dots between top 30 recruiting classes and championship rings. Every B1G title we won in our lifetimes was won with recruiting classes on the roster that were nationally ranked in the top 30. Every one of those recruiting classes left with at least one championship ring. And yet, people don't seem to be able to connect the dots.
Fitz has no more excuses. He has more than Barnett ever had when he took over this program. Sometimes I think the problem here is that while Fitz learned from Barnett as a player, he never had much more than a limited view of what Barnett and his staff did as coaches on the recruiting front. Instead, he learned most from Coach Walker, who had a ton of great things to impart on a young coach, but recruiting acumen was not one of them. Let's go get the diamond's in the rough. Don't reach too high because you've lost before you even tried. Hopefully the addition of Jeff Genryk who led recruiting at one point while on Barnett's staff will be helpful in that respect.