Comparison with Wisconsin

[Catdude]

From a talent perspective, I think Wisconsin is a pretty fair comparison. They have one lottery pick in Johnny Davis who is awesome but otherwise do not feature another all-conference player. Davidson is probably their second-best player and is experienced and solid but definitely not a top guard in the league. So my point is that I don't think they are much more "talented" than we are. And yet they are 17-3 (8-2 in conference) and ranked 11th in the county and we are 9-10 (2-8). The difference is that in games decided by six or less or overtime, Wisconsin is 10-1 and we are 2-8. And it's not like most of our losses were fake close games in which we cut a deficit of 10 to six in the final minute. It seems like in almost all of them we were winning, tied, or within two with two or three minutes left.

So we are a good example of so close and yet so far away. So we can say if we were better in close games, we'd be a pretty damn good team. But we also have four-plus years of evidence under Collins to say that if will never actually happen.

 

[Catreporter]

One lottery pick makes a HUGE difference!

 

[hoosboot]

One lottery pick makes a HUGE difference!

2nd guy in the last ten years who was in the mid 100's in recruiting rankings that Wisconsin has turned into an All-America candidate. I suspect that points to one of the issues in the talent gap that catdude is identifying.

 

[Sec.112]

Davison is a punk, but he'd probably be the best player on NU.

I'm sorry, but you can't have two guys on the team who are better than anyone on NU, and say the talent is comparable.

UW also has two 7-footers in their first six who play like 7-footers. NU has Ryan Young. In the meantime Pete Nance plays like he's 6-7.

If we're talking about how players evolve, there's no comparison to Wisconsin and Purdue in the B10, much less NU. Most years, Wisconsin offers a master class on how to develop players.

If I'm generous about how players develop, I think NU is more comparable to Iowa. And even then, it's not much of a comparison.

Let's face it: Collins put his money on this group ... and well, here we are.

 

[Catdude]

Let's face it: Collins put his money on this group ... and well, here we are.

I agree: I meant it as an indictment of Collins. To me you have two very similar teams: both have played about 20 games with just over half being decided by six points or less and yet Wisconsin is 11th in the country and NU has a losing record.

So it’s an interesting and clear example of winning teams find ways to win and losing teams find ways to lose. And this is not a one-year aberration for NU as we continually find ways to lose close games year after year.

 

[jensberg]

Davison is a punk, but he'd probably be the best player on NU.

I'm sorry, but you can't have two guys on the team who are better than anyone on NU, and say the talent is comparable.

UW also has two 7-footers in their first six who play like 7-footers. NU has Ryan Young. In the meantime Pete Nance plays like he's 6-7.

If we're talking about how players evolve, there's no comparison to Wisconsin and Purdue in the B10, much less NU. Most years, Wisconsin offers a master class on how to develop players.

If I'm generous about how players develop, I think NU is more comparable to Iowa. And even then, it's not much of a comparison.

Let's face it: Collins put his money on this group ... and well, here we are.

Wisconsin is the program we would love to emulate. In both basketball and football they take average talent and turn them into fantastic players.

 

[AdamOnFirst]

2nd guy in the last ten years who was in the mid 100's in recruiting rankings that Wisconsin has turned into an All-America candidate. I suspect that points to one of the issues in the talent gap that catdude is identifying.

There's a reason Wisconsin has missed the tourney once in the last 20 years despite never ever being really considered a nationally premium program.

 

[PurpleFaze]

Davison is a punk, but he'd probably be the best player on NU.

I'm sorry, but you can't have two guys on the team who are better than anyone on NU, and say the talent is comparable.

UW also has two 7-footers in their first six who play like 7-footers. NU has Ryan Young. In the meantime Pete Nance plays like he's 6-7.

If we're talking about how players evolve, there's no comparison to Wisconsin and Purdue in the B10, much less NU. Most years, Wisconsin offers a master class on how to develop players.

If I'm generous about how players develop, I think NU is more comparable to Iowa. And even then, it's not much of a comparison.

Let's face it: Collins put his money on this group ... and well, here we are.

Brad isn’t a better player than Nance. He gets more respect than he deserves because he’s the hard working white kid from Wisconsin. He’s also been able to develop more since he’s played about 7 years of Big 10 ball…

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

Wisconsin is the program we would love to emulate. In both basketball and football they take average talent and turn them into fantastic players.

Wisconsin has had 10 recruits in the top 100 since TOS conception. NU has had 2.

 

[Sec.112]

Brad isn’t a better player than Nance. He gets more respect than he deserves because he’s the hard working white kid from Wisconsin. He’s also been able to develop more since he’s played about 7 years of Big 10 ball…

And you don't think Nance gets a bump at all because of his last name?

Go ahead and compare Nance this year in B10 play to scumbag Davison's freshman year. Take out Davison's development. Nance's senior may have three or four points on Davison, but they're in the ballpark.

 

[7th Cir. Cat]

And you don't think Nance gets a bump at all because of his last name?

Go ahead and compare Nance this year in B10 play to scumbag Davison's freshman year. Take out Davison's development. Nance's senior may have three or four points on Davison, but they're in the ballpark.

I like Nance a lot, seems like a really hard working kid. But I agree with you, if his last name was Smith, he's probably not a 4 Star. I also wonder if Nance would have been better served (from a basketball standpoint) of dropping down a level like his brother who went to Wyoming. Hindsight is 20/20, but he would have really benefitted from a Redshirt year.

 

[Sec.112]

Nance is a good guy and I appreciate how much he works on his game also. He's also been put in a spot that runs contrary to one of the main objectives outlined by the Bears new GM today. He hasn't been put in the proverbial "best spot to succeed."

 

[FeralFelidae]

I like Nance a lot, seems like a really hard working kid. But I agree with you, if his last name was Smith, he's probably not a 4 Star. I also wonder if Nance would have been better served (from a basketball standpoint) of dropping down a level like his brother who went to Wyoming. Hindsight is 20/20, but he would have really benefitted from a Redshirt year.

That's quite a way to talk about our best player.

I'd hate to hear what you have to say about the rest of our team.

 

[PurpleFaze]

I like Nance a lot, seems like a really hard working kid. But I agree with you, if his last name was Smith, he's probably not a 4 Star. I also wonder if Nance would have been better served (from a basketball standpoint) of dropping down a level like his brother who went to Wyoming. Hindsight is 20/20, but he would have really benefitted from a Redshirt year.

Who cares how many stars he was? Kid has a shot to be drafted because he’s got length and can also shoot from range. Brad won’t be playing unless it’s in Greece or Estonia or something

Nance 16.3 ppg playing 27.3 mins. 50.9 fg% and 44.6% from 3

Brad 15.7 ppg but playing 34+ mins. 41.5% fg. And 38.9% from 3

Rebounds Nance is #12 in conference. I didn’t see Brad listed

Blocks- Nance #6 in conference

Assists- Brad #28 in conf while guess what nance is #21. They have the same assist/to ratio

Frankly it’s no contest Nance kicks Brad’s ass. Especially when you also consider brad is a guard on a better more rounded team and he’s playing 7 more mins per game

 

[hoosboot]

Davison is a punk, but he'd probably be the best player on NU.

I'm sorry, but you can't have two guys on the team who are better than anyone on NU, and say the talent is comparable.

UW also has two 7-footers in their first six who play like 7-footers. NU has Ryan Young. In the meantime Pete Nance plays like he's 6-7.

If we're talking about how players evolve, there's no comparison to Wisconsin and Purdue in the B10, much less NU. Most years, Wisconsin offers a master class on how to develop players.

If I'm generous about how players develop, I think NU is more comparable to Iowa. And even then, it's not much of a comparison.

Let's face it: Collins put his money on this group ... and well, here we are.

I can't tell, but I think we're making the same point - that Wisconsin strategically recruits and develops lesser recruited players to their system and produces better players and teams where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

Davison is a 5th year senior who was ranked right around 100th in his class. Johnny Davis was ranked 134th. Chris Vogt's had 2 D1 offers out of high school. If only Northwestern could identify, recruit, keep, and develop players who've been evaluated so impressively.

Heck, if Northwestern could have kept and developed the more highly ranked players the program already recruited, imagine where it could go.

 

[GatoLouco]

I can't tell, but I think we're making the same point - that Wisconsin strategically recruits and develops lesser recruited players to their system and produces better players and teams where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

Davison is a 5th year senior who was ranked right around 100th in his class. Johnny Davis was ranked 134th. Chris Vogt's had 2 D1 offers out of high school. If only Northwestern could identify, recruit, keep, and develop players who've been evaluated so impressively.

Heck, if Northwestern could have kept and developed the more highly ranked players the program already recruited, imagine where it could go.

WI does not have a "true PG" either. But that has often been mentioned as the root of all evil for us.

 

[7th Cir. Cat]

That's quite a way to talk about our best player.

I'd hate to hear what you have to say about the rest of our team.

My take on Nance is that he's a very good but not great basketball player. And I don't thinkt that's controversial. There are a bunch of BIG players who made the midseaon cut for the Wooden Award: Davis (Wisconsin); Williams, Eden and Ivey (Purdue); Trayce-Jackson (IU) Kofi (Illinois); EJ Liddell (OSU); Hunter Dickson (Michigan) and probably some others that I'm forgetting. Nance is not the list. He just seems to be a cut below those players.

For context, Shurna was on the midseason list when he was playing so I don't think there's an NU bias.

 

[PurpleFaze]

I can't tell, but I think we're making the same point - that Wisconsin strategically recruits and develops lesser recruited players to their system and produces better players and teams where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

Davison is a 5th year senior who was ranked right around 100th in his class. Johnny Davis was ranked 134th. Chris Vogt's had 2 D1 offers out of high school. If only Northwestern could identify, recruit, keep, and develop players who've been evaluated so impressively.

Heck, if Northwestern could have kept and developed the more highly ranked players the program already recruited, imagine where it could go.

With the current NU team I don‘t think raw talent is the issue. Unlike many previous versions of NU basketball basically every kid on our roster has legit Big 10 talent/body.

We are playing with some of the best teams in the country and losing by a few points. That doesn’t happen if you don‘t have a decent roster.

What’s the problem? I think it’s the staff not maximizing the kid’s talent or at least not quickly enough. Nance looks great this year. Why did it take 3+ years for him to get to this level?

Will Beran ever approach his raw skill level?

I think the staff struggles to mix and match the talent they have into the best floor product aka figure out roles for kids.

Lastly and this may be where admissions plays a part, while we have talent, I’m not sure from a building a team standpoint we have the best mix of players for roles/positions.

 

[7th Cir. Cat]

With the current NU team I don‘t think raw talent is the issue. Unlike many previous versions of NU basketball basically every kid on our roster has legit Big 10 talent/body.

We are playing with some of the best teams in the country and losing by a few points. That doesn’t happen if you don‘t have a decent roster.

What’s the problem? I think it’s the staff not maximizing the kid’s talent or at least not quickly enough. Nance looks great this year. Why did it take 3+ years for him to get to this level?

Will Beran ever approach his raw skill level?

I think the staff struggles to mix and match the talent they have into the best floor product aka figure out roles for kids.

Lastly and this may be where admissions plays a part, while we have talent, I’m not sure from a building a team standpoint we have the best mix of players for roles/positions.

I think we have a solid team, but if you go position by postion and compare them to the 2016 tourney team I think it's unlikely that any current player would start over their counterpart.

PG- B-Mac vs. Buie
SG - Linsdey vs. Roper
SF - Law vs Audgie
PF - Lumpkin vs. Beran
C - Pardon vs. Nance

My point is that while we have talent and depth I don't think we have the top-end talent that you need to win 7, 8, 9 games in the BIG. I've been down on Collins for in-game substitutions and roster managagment, but after the way we lost the last couple games, I don't know how much more we can do with schemes. Players are missing free throws or layups, At some point top talent simply rises to the moment.

 

[PurpleFaze]

I think we have a solid team, but if you go position by postion and compare them to the 2016 tourney team I think it's unlikely that any current player would start over their counterpart.

PG- B-Mac vs. Buie
SG - Linsdey vs. Roper
SF - Law vs Audgie
PF - Lumpkin vs. Beran
C - Pardon vs. Nance

My point is that while we have talent and depth I don't think we have the top-end talent that you need to win 7, 8, 9 games in the BIG. I've been down on Collins for in-game substitutions and roster managagment, but after the way we lost the last couple games, I don't know how much more we can do with schemes. Players are missing free throws or layups, At some point top talent simply rises to the moment.

The current team has a way deeper bench than that squad. Not sure I see your point in comparing to maybe the best year of NU basketball in at least recent memory.

The current team is 2-8 today in the Big 10. They should be 4-6.

Personally I think if this team had a point guard like BM we’d have 2-3 more Big 10 wins.

 

[Sec.112]

I'll offer a couple last bit of info. Here's Nance in league play so far ...

16.3 p/g (51 2P%, 47 3P%, 70 FT%)
6.4 r/g
2.7 a/g
.2 steals/g
.3 blocks/g
1.6 turnovers
118.4 offensive rating
110.7 defensive rating

Here's Davison in the conference from his freshman year - a 15-18 team ...

11.9 p/g (42 2P%, 35 3P%, 89 FT%)
2.6 r/g
2.8 a/g
1.1 steals/g
.1 blocks/g
2.3 turnovers
102 offensive rating
111.3 defensive rating

This year, I'll offer as a sample that Davison is pulling down 4.9 in the conference while Nance has 6.4. Davison's offensive rating is 125.7 while his defensive rating is 102.1.

If you want to declare that Nance is an incredibly better player, have a good time. But these are two comparable players in the same ballpark of good - not great. And to the original point, that's the second best player on Wisconsin's team.

 

[GatoLouco]

The current team has a way deeper bench than that squad. Not sure I see your point in comparing to maybe the best year of NU basketball in at least recent memory.

The current team is 2-8 today in the Big 10. They should be 4-6.

Personally I think if this team had a point guard like BM we’d have 2-3 more Big 10 wins.

On top of that, if you do not compare individually, and compare the front court, Young/Nance are vastly superior to Pardon/Lumpkin. Even if Young is flat out disrespect in how and how often he is used.

 

[GatoLouco]

All this talk about Nance would be so different if we were 6-4 or even 5-5. Everyone would be touting how amazing he is. Also a change he'd make that all important Wooden watch. Get to the tourney and best one season player ever at NU. Oh what could have been. Be thankful for what you have, kid is pretty darn good.

 

[7th Cir. Cat]

The current team has a way deeper bench than that squad. Not sure I see your point in comparing to maybe the best year of NU basketball in at least recent memory.

The current team is 2-8 today in the Big 10. They should be 4-6.

Personally I think if this team had a point guard like BM we’d have 2-3 more Big 10 wins.

My point is that maybe we don’t actually have the talent to win 8+ BIG games. If we don’t have multiple players who would have started on a team that did.

 

[AdamOnFirst]

I think we have a solid team, but if you go position by postion and compare them to the 2016 tourney team I think it's unlikely that any current player would start over their counterpart.

PG- B-Mac vs. Buie
SG - Linsdey vs. Roper
SF - Law vs Audgie
PF - Lumpkin vs. Beran
C - Pardon vs. Nance

My point is that while we have talent and depth I don't think we have the top-end talent that you need to win 7, 8, 9 games in the BIG. I've been down on Collins for in-game substitutions and roster managagment, but after the way we lost the last couple games, I don't know how much more we can do with schemes. Players are missing free throws or layups, At some point top talent simply rises to the moment.

Huge difference in the backcourt. I think I could definitely argue Audige plays the Lumpkin role very well when he isn’t wasting possessions with bad shots and Nance definitely plays on that team. You could easily play Nance at the 4 with Pardon or run him at the 5.

IMO the big difference between the two teams is McIntosh, and not because his stats are so much better than Buie’s. Buie still puts up good stats, but he’s never developed in the winning closer it looked like he had in him early in his career. Mac wasn’t the best player on that team on paper, but he was the guy who changed things for NU. He was the one who closed out games, who pushed through and delivered the needed wins. The only other guy I can think who was like him at NUbwas Juice Thompson, and ultimately juice just didn’t have enough firepower around him to get it done. That’s what NU lacks more than anything else.

Wisconsin is an interesting comparison. It’s not comparable in talent when Wisconsin has a serious national player of the year contender on the team, but Wisconsin has a winning culture and system. They’ve missed the tournament once in their last two coaching regimes for crying out loud. They win their close games, and they run their system with excellence. Their culture is when the game gets tight, they have another gear and they win. It’s in the water.

 

[Sec.112]

With the current NU team I don‘t think raw talent is the issue. Unlike many previous versions of NU basketball ...

One of the things I believe many on this board get wrong is that the raw talent is not an issue. Here we have the usual comparison to past NU teams.

But I miss the logic that says the Cats match up well when your best player is outclassed by at least one player on at least six teams, while two of your five starters are often MIA on a bad team.

Yes, I know the kill Collins crowd only believes there's one problem. I don't deny he's a problem at all. Screwy lineups. Faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar too much faith in top recruits like Kopp and Beran. Very average defense. No accountability for poor shots. On and on and on.

But it's also too simplistic and ignores any complexity.

A strong player would shine through some of this, and none of these guys do consistently ... not even close. Nobody here had a problem with the overrated BMac or the more reasonably judged Law and Pardon. So let's assume Collins was still a bum of a coach at that time. Those players did fine in this system (as others did).

Also, bring in something more realistic between a replacement level coach and a hall of fame coach, and every problem with the 1-7 players is not stunningly going to disappear. Young's offense would continue to be limited. Buie would still barely play defense. Audige would still shoot too many line drives off one foot, and Nance would be soft.

And that's assuming Young could be quicker on defense. Buie would have incredibly better shot selection. Audige would drive to the basket more and Nance would have an inside game. Each and every one of those challenges is not going to disappear with a new coach.

There's no doubt Collins has had a bad season on many levels. I'd be done with him if I were Cragg. But I hope Cragg doesn't believe this is middle-of-the-road B10 talent with a direction that needs a simple tweak. That's an unrealistic evaluation that doesn't get NU much closer to a strong solution.

The talent is ok compared to NU levels. Obviously, it's still pretty awful compared to the rest of the B10.

 

[NUCat320]

All this talk about Nance would be so different if we were 6-4 or even 5-5. Everyone would be touting how amazing he is. Also a change he'd make that all important Wooden watch. Get to the tourney and best one season player ever at NU. Oh what could have been. Be thankful for what you have, kid is pretty darn good.

Except, of course, NU has two wins in the conference, one with Nance. I do believe that tells you a lot about Nance as top or second banana.

Early in the season, NU ran a lot of high screens late in games (I think Wake), specifically to get Nance the ball to create at the top of the key. For whatever reason, NU has gone away from that. I wish they still did it.

 

[NUCat320]

Did anybody else hear Bardo say that, when he saw Beran for the first time, he thought he was looking at a ‘pro’ (which I interpret to mean NBA guy)? I was shocked by that, but Bardo probably saw Beran first when he put up all those points against Illinois as a freshman.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

One of the things I believe many on this board get wrong is that the raw talent is not an issue. Here we have the usual comparison to past NU teams.

But I miss the logic that says the Cats match up well when your best player is outclassed by at least one player on at least six teams, while two of your five starters are often MIA on a bad team.

Yes, I know the kill Collins crowd only believes there's one problem. I don't deny he's a problem at all. Screwy lineups. Faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar too much faith in top recruits like Kopp and Beran. Very average defense. No accountability for poor shots. On and on and on.

But it's also too simplistic and ignores any complexity.

A strong player would shine through some of this, and none of these guys do consistently ... not even close. Nobody here had a problem with the overrated BMac or the more reasonably judged Law and Pardon. So let's assume Collins was still a bum of a coach at that time. Those players did fine in this system (as others did).

Also, bring in something more realistic between a replacement level coach and a hall of fame coach, and every problem with the 1-7 players is not stunningly going to disappear. Young's offense would continue to be limited. Buie would still barely play defense. Audige would still shoot too many line drives off one foot, and Nance would be soft.

And that's assuming Young could be quicker on defense. Buie would have incredibly better shot selection. Audige would drive to the basket more and Nance would have an inside game. Each and every one of those challenges is not going to disappear with a new coach.

There's no doubt Collins has had a bad season on many levels. I'd be done with him if I were Cragg. But I hope Cragg doesn't believe this is middle-of-the-road B10 talent with a direction that needs a simple tweak. That's an unrealistic evaluation that doesn't get NU much closer to a strong solution.

The talent is ok compared to NU levels. Obviously, it's still pretty awful compared to the rest of the B10.

Man, you were right on the money until that last sentence about our talent.
"Obviously, it's still pretty awful compared to the rest of the B10."

To be that statement is undeniably false. How do you make that claim unless you think Collins is a very good coach being undermined by his players?

 

[PurpleFaze]

Did anybody else hear Bardo say that, when he saw Beran for the first time, he thought he was looking at a ‘pro’ (which I interpret to mean NBA guy)? I was shocked by that, but Bardo probably saw Beran first when he put up all those points against Illinois as a freshman.

Beran looks like a really good player in the layup line

 

[PurpleFaze]

I'll offer a couple last bit of info. Here's Nance in league play so far ...

16.3 p/g (51 2P%, 47 3P%, 70 FT%)
6.4 r/g
2.7 a/g
.2 steals/g
.3 blocks/g
1.6 turnovers
118.4 offensive rating
110.7 defensive rating

Here's Davison in the conference from his freshman year - a 15-18 team ...

11.9 p/g (42 2P%, 35 3P%, 89 FT%)
2.6 r/g
2.8 a/g
1.1 steals/g
.1 blocks/g
2.3 turnovers
102 offensive rating
111.3 defensive rating

This year, I'll offer as a sample that Davison is pulling down 4.9 in the conference while Nance has 6.4. Davison's offensive rating is 125.7 while his defensive rating is 102.1.

If you want to declare that Nance is an incredibly better player, have a good time. But these are two comparable players in the same ballpark of good - not great. And to the original point, that's the second best player on Wisconsin's team.

Put Nance on Wisky and Brad on NU- Wisky would be more dangerous. We’d be worse

Part of the defensive issue with Nance is sometimes Collins puts him in horrible matchups. Guarding Edey from Purdue- that was just dumb

 

[hoosboot]

One of the things I believe many on this board get wrong is that the raw talent is not an issue. Here we have the usual comparison to past NU teams.

But I miss the logic that says the Cats match up well when your best player is outclassed by at least one player on at least six teams, while two of your five starters are often MIA on a bad team.

Yes, I know the kill Collins crowd only believes there's one problem. I don't deny he's a problem at all. Screwy lineups. Faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar too much faith in top recruits like Kopp and Beran. Very average defense. No accountability for poor shots. On and on and on.

But it's also too simplistic and ignores any complexity.

A strong player would shine through some of this, and none of these guys do consistently ... not even close. Nobody here had a problem with the overrated BMac or the more reasonably judged Law and Pardon. So let's assume Collins was still a bum of a coach at that time. Those players did fine in this system (as others did).

Also, bring in something more realistic between a replacement level coach and a hall of fame coach, and every problem with the 1-7 players is not stunningly going to disappear. Young's offense would continue to be limited. Buie would still barely play defense. Audige would still shoot too many line drives off one foot, and Nance would be soft.

And that's assuming Young could be quicker on defense. Buie would have incredibly better shot selection. Audige would drive to the basket more and Nance would have an inside game. Each and every one of those challenges is not going to disappear with a new coach.

There's no doubt Collins has had a bad season on many levels. I'd be done with him if I were Cragg. But I hope Cragg doesn't believe this is middle-of-the-road B10 talent with a direction that needs a simple tweak. That's an unrealistic evaluation that doesn't get NU much closer to a strong solution.

The talent is ok compared to NU levels. Obviously, it's still pretty awful compared to the rest of the B10.

Sounds like NU needs to fire the GM. That dude needs to sign some good players for Collins to coach.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

One of the things I believe many on this board get wrong is that the raw talent is not an issue. Here we have the usual comparison to past NU teams.

But I miss the logic that says the Cats match up well when your best player is outclassed by at least one player on at least six teams, while two of your five starters are often MIA on a bad team.

Yes, I know the kill Collins crowd only believes there's one problem. I don't deny he's a problem at all. Screwy lineups. Faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar too much faith in top recruits like Kopp and Beran. Very average defense. No accountability for poor shots. On and on and on.

But it's also too simplistic and ignores any complexity.

A strong player would shine through some of this, and none of these guys do consistently ... not even close. Nobody here had a problem with the overrated BMac or the more reasonably judged Law and Pardon. So let's assume Collins was still a bum of a coach at that time. Those players did fine in this system (as others did).

Also, bring in something more realistic between a replacement level coach and a hall of fame coach, and every problem with the 1-7 players is not stunningly going to disappear. Young's offense would continue to be limited. Buie would still barely play defense. Audige would still shoot too many line drives off one foot, and Nance would be soft.

And that's assuming Young could be quicker on defense. Buie would have incredibly better shot selection. Audige would drive to the basket more and Nance would have an inside game. Each and every one of those challenges is not going to disappear with a new coach.

There's no doubt Collins has had a bad season on many levels. I'd be done with him if I were Cragg. But I hope Cragg doesn't believe this is middle-of-the-road B10 talent with a direction that needs a simple tweak. That's an unrealistic evaluation that doesn't get NU much closer to a strong solution.

The talent is ok compared to NU levels. Obviously, it's still pretty awful compared to the rest of the B10.

Right on. I have no problem if the decision is made to move on because NU’s record sucks. Have at it. That is what matters and it’s not good enough right now. The second half of the season still matters in that regard.

However, these claims of great talent on NU or even comparable to most B1G teams are still nonsense. Until NU gets that stud guy, we are spitting in the wind.

we can pontificate all day about Young starting or getting more minutes, but it isn’t making this a tourney team. We can debate whether Berry plays more or Roper. Whether Beran should play at all. Why a 6’7 guy guards Kofi. If Boo is a true PG. At they end of the day these players are what they are. Good at some things, not so good at others. Norman Dale isn’t fixing their flaws to make them the next Luka Doncic. Sorry, but Pete, Boo, Berry and even Greer are clearly better players now that when they arrived at NU. We can cite Beran as the opposite example all day but it doesn’t negate the improvement of the others.

If you want to fire CCC because he is 2-18 or whatever record NU ends up at. Go for it. Wins are what matter, but let’s not paint every flaw this team has as some self created issue from CCC just to support that narrative. The man has literally been involved with High Level basketball since he was a child. I think he knows more about the team than anyone on here.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

Right on. I have no problem if the decision is made to move on because NU’s record sucks. Have at it. That is what matters and it’s not good enough right now. The second half of the season still matters in that regard.

However, these claims of great talent on NU or even comparable to most B1G teams are still nonsense. Until NU gets that stud guy, we are spitting in the wind.

we can pontificate all day about Young starting or getting more minutes, but it isn’t making this a tourney team. We can debate whether Berry plays more or Roper. Whether Beran should play at all. Why a 6’7 guy guards Kofi. If Boo is a true PG. At they end of the day these players are what they are. Good at some things, not so good at others. Norman Dale isn’t fixing their flaws to make them the next Luka Doncic. Sorry, but Pete, Boo, Berry and even Greer are clearly better players now that when they arrived at NU. We can cite Beran as the opposite example all day but it doesn’t negate the improvement of the others.

If you want to fire CCC because he is 2-18 or whatever record NU ends up at. Go for it. Wins are what matter, but let’s not paint every flaw this team has as some self created issue from CCC just to support that narrative. The man has literally been involved with High Level basketball since he was a child. I think he knows more about the team than anyone on here.

PPD:

Most players would show some improvement just by playing and practicing, even without a coach. They just mature, get stronger, learn little things along the way, handle pressure better. So its not a reasonable bar to say "so and so is better than when he showed up at NU." They should all be better.

Nobody has claimed NU has "great talent" compared to the average Big Ten team.

In my opinion, we are just as talented or more talented than Minnesota, Iowa, Nebraska, Penn State, Rutgers and Maryland. Indiana is not clearly better than us.

Wisconsin, Michigan State, Ohio State, even Michigan in its current stage of development are not significantly more talented than us. Michigan will be, but the competitive games don't lie.

And don't worry about finishing 2-18. Its looking more like 5-5 from here, so 7-13 in the conference, which is disappointing (and below my own expectations). If something positive happens, we might even go 6-4 the rest of the way. Even 7-3 is not totally impossible.

 

[Catdude]

In my opinion, we are just as talented or more talented than Minnesota, Iowa, Nebraska, Penn State, Rutgers and Maryland. Indiana is not clearly better than us.

Wisconsin, Michigan State, Ohio State, even Michigan in its current stage of development are not significantly more talented than us. Michigan will be, but the competitive games don't lie.

I agree with this. The only teams that I've seen this season that were clearly more talented than NU are Purdue and Illinois. I thought we matched up pretty well with the other teams, even traditional powers like Michigan St and Michigan which are not nearly as talented as they usually are.

 

[Sec.112]

Man, you were right on the money until that last sentence about our talent.
"Obviously, it's still pretty awful compared to the rest of the B10."

To be that statement is undeniably false. How do you make that claim unless you think Collins is a very good coach being undermined by his players?

You can do a bad job coaching bad players. The two are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

PPD:

Most players would show some improvement just by playing and practicing, even without a coach. They just mature, get stronger, learn little things along the way, handle pressure better. So its not a reasonable bar to say "so and so is better than when he showed up at NU." They should all be better.

Nobody has claimed NU has "great talent" compared to the average Big Ten team.

In my opinion, we are just as talented or more talented than Minnesota, Iowa, Nebraska, Penn State, Rutgers and Maryland. Indiana is not clearly better than us.

Wisconsin, Michigan State, Ohio State, even Michigan in its current stage of development are not significantly more talented than us. Michigan will be, but the competitive games don't lie.

And don't worry about finishing 2-18. Its looking more like 5-5 from here, so 7-13 in the conference, which is disappointing (and below my own expectations). If something positive happens, we might even go 6-4 the rest of the way. Even 7-3 is not totally impossible.

The difference is the one stud that those other teams have. Give us Lidell, Davis, TJD, I think NU is 7-3 not 2-8.

 

[NUCat320]

Listening to Butch on the broadcast, you could hear what makes Wisconsin unique. At one point, Butch said something along the lines of, “What makes basketball great is that you’re rewarded for being unselfish.” He also mentioned as a specific offensive key ‘getting two guys to guard one’, which is an interesting thing I’ve not heard said that way before.

The line on unselfishness really encapsulates the Wisconsin program. Lots of guys who are actively looking to get an open shot, no matter who gets to take it. And it’s been that way for decades. (They’re also generally huge people, which helps.)

 

[pawildcat]

Wisconsin is the program we would love to emulate. In both basketball and football they take average talent and turn them into fantastic players.

Well, for this year at least, Davis and guys such as Tyler Wahl are far above average talents. A lot of teams would love to have them.

 

[barney31]

If "ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas"