Credit where it's due

[gocatsgo2003]

Didn't the same thing happen with Sean Cotton? I'm not saying we jerked him around, but he found out in the last month or two that he couldn't get in, and ended up having to settle for Eastern Michigan or something like that.

It's a risk you take, when you accept a conditional offer to a school like NU or Stanford with stringent admissions requirements. It doesn't seem to have hurt Stanford though as kids still want to go there.

The Sean Cotton situation was very strange with plenty of blame to go around. The end result was a set of clearly communicated measures the kid needed to achieve in his seventh semester to get admitted to Northwestern. He didn't meet those requirements, so he was informed that he would not be admitted.

It was a similar situation with Faith Ekakitie, just that he never actually committed.

 

[polecat]

I don't think they have better players. They might be slightly deeper but this is essentially the same roster that struggled dramatically under Hoke. What changed? The dramatic swing in our team's performance from our best game of the year to yesterday really makes you question certain things. Yesterday I asked myself if NU would be playing as poorly as it did if the Michigan coaching staff was coaching NU. I am pretty sure the answer is no.

If you look at recruiting rankings, then UM has better players. Now those players have a coach that knows how to develop them.

 

[Just Gary]

I think the team would love to play Michigan again. I think the coaches and team underestimated Michigan because the Michigan team that showed up on Saturday looked far better than the Michigan team that has played to date. Harbaugh had his team ready and it reminded me more of the California team that came in last year and beat us. This is what happens when you become a target. Teams psyche up to beat you. Teams bring their "A" game and unfortunately if we don't expect the "A" game we get beat badly. Michigan played well because they wanted the win, their pkayers were ready, their coaches circled us on their calendar, and they came in determined to win. I thought they might look past us to the Michigan State game but Harbaugh had them focused on us and that is good coaching. I had hopes that we would catch Michigan and Harbaugh before he had a chance to put his mark on the team, but he has proven himself a better coach then I thought and I already though he was a really good coach (the 49ers are complete idiots). I am not sure that Michigan will beat Michigan State. D'Antonio also knows how to get a team ready for a fight and he will get his played ready for the game but I would not be surprised if Harbaugh outcoaches him. Still, I think it will be a close battle.

 

[SciCat]

I hope that isn't true. I would hope that a Coach would do his homework on a kid and be certain he wants him before taking his commitment.

Unfortunately there are multiple times at Stanford where they would extend an offer, pending the athlete being accepted into the university. Stanford would wait to make a decision until they heard from other, "better" recruits. If another "better" recruit committed to Stanford, the conditional offer was removed, claiming he didn't get into the school.

NU actually benefited from this with Kain Colter.

 

[Sheffielder]

It was a similar situation with Faith Ekakitie, just that he never actually committed.

Now there's a name I haven't thought twice about in years, but apparently no one else has, either:
http://allhawkeyes.com/2015/04/faith-ekakitie-still-trying-to-live-up-to-the-hype/

 

[corbi296]

If you look at recruiting rankings, then UM has better players. Now those players have a coach that knows how to develop them.

I don't really base much on recruiting rankings. They are a starting point but I try to actually judge for myself. I didn't see much of a difference in athletic talent on Saturday. What I saw was a physical team ready to play from opening kickoff and executing well. The other team, not so much this week.

 

[EvanstonCat]

The whole crux of the issue is that Harbaugh hid behind Stanford's academics and admissions in various ways, all that were to his advantage and bad for high school kids. Harbaugh would blanket offer kids the week after Signing Day, literally sending offer letters via fax to hundreds of kids. He would then accept the commitment from almost any player who would give it to him before hiding behind academics/admissions if he felt he could fill that spot with a better player.

If two kids had substantially equal academic profiles, the high-profile recruit with multiple BCS offers would get his admission decision in September or October while the low-profile recruit with only a handful of offers would be told that he wouldn't know before late January at the earliest. What else is a kid supposed to besides consider other options while they're still viable? A kid who had numerous offers early in the process might have none left at Signing Day if they're taken by others.

And it's not like Stanford was turning away guys with poor academic profiles. I'm not going to publicize kids' academics unless they've done so themselves, but Daniel Davis is a prime example. He was told that he wouldn't be admitted despite carrying a 4.0 GPA and 29 ACT. He eventually landed at Penn. Kain Colter had a similar academic profile.

There was a story making the rounds of a kid who attended a Stanford recruiting event with his offer letter in hand. He tried to commit to Harbaugh in person, but his commitment was refused. This was a kid with multiple BCS offers that ended up as a starter in the Big 12, so it's not like he couldn't play. Harbaugh just decided he didn't want him anymore.

It was the same thing with commits who stopped getting any kind of contact from the program. Do you really think that Stanford would have sent these kids a Letter of Intent for them to sign? They would have been left without a destination after 99.999% of available scholarships were filled. Not exactly an envious position.

We had high school coaches calling our offices literally volunteering to help us recruit against Stanford by sharing their Harbaugh horror stories. I had a list of their contact information on my desk in case anyone asked.

It was bad.

So, your example of a kid that was screwed is Daniel Davis who ended up at an Ivy League school and Kain Colter who ended up at NU. How is that ruining a kid's life? Or the kid that ended up a starter in the Big 12? Show me d the kid that was left without a destination, where Harbaugh ruined the kid's life?

I guess I'm not seeing how the man ruins people's lives. Kids like Colter and Davis made a decision to land elsewhere. In very GOOD positions I may add. It's not like these kids are left out in the cold where nowhere to go. As far as the bad blood is concerned with HS coaches, it sure doesn't look like it hurts Stanford much at all given their continued recruiting success. Again, I'm not saying we should emulate what they are doing in every respect, but I'm not sure the situation is as bad as you make it out to be - and based on the input from a real parent, it doesn't seem like the experience is universal.

 

[hdhntr1]

I have a question(s), which I'm genuinely interested in. If the situation is different from what I suspect, then that might cause me to change my mind on him. Has there ever been a kid that committed to a verbal offer that did not leave on his own free will or because he wasn't admitted? If the offer was contingent upon admission, then he needs to take that it into account. If I'm not mistaken, the kids who we were Stanford offers that landed at NU all left on their own. No one forced them out - they just stopped calling, and the kids knew they would probably not get any time so left on their own. Did Harbaugh actually take a kid that was admitted and that was offered and tell him, sorry but you no longer have a scholarship?

Another thing, has there been any kid that has ruined their future and life because they didn't end up at Stanford because of Harbaugh? The three kids that ended up at NU all have NU degrees and played big time college football. How is that a ruined future?

There were a number of kids in each class that were slow played by admissions, They were pushed out where they were forced to make a decision to leave. Suddenly your phone calls not returned, questions not getting answered and on and on while lesser qualified guys went through the system. So technically while the offer was not officially pulled, it was not exactly honored either. Have not heard these issues since he left.

 

[EvanstonCat]

So, there was never a scholarship that was actually pulled. Kids made the (smart) decision to go elsewhere themselves. I'm not sure I see why this is so terrible. We've done the same. I remember there was an OL that ended up at BC that we kind of did that to. Offered him, and then he tried to commit, but we kind of ignored him. Greg Gold comes to mind to, where his mom mentioned that they were interested in accepting the offer at NU, but no one was returning calls (though I acknowledge that situation was a bit different in that Gold I believe committed elsewhere first, but then had second thoughts).

 

[PURPLECAT88]

How many recruits commit to a school and later decommit because they got what they thought was a better offer or changed their minds. It goes both ways in recruiting. When a Coach does it he is thought poorly of, when a recruit does it, no big deal.

Exactly. I hold millionaire "molders of men" to a higher standard than 17yo high school kids.

 

[hdhntr1]

Didn't the same thing happen with Sean Cotton? I'm not saying we jerked him around, but he found out in the last month or two that he couldn't get in, and ended up having to settle for Eastern Michigan or something like that.

It's a risk you take, when you accept a conditional offer to a school like NU or Stanford with stringent admissions requirements. It doesn't seem to have hurt Stanford though as kids still want to go there.

I think Sean Cotton was told specifically what he needed to do to pass admissions. Do it and he was in , don't do it and we cannot get him in. He knew the rules and did not meet them so he did not get in. All based on admissions feeling that that is what it would take to show them he could make it through the program. A whole lot different in the way that Stanford took guys that had the academic chops to easily make it through but were kept in limbo with no action with everything waiting until somebody better either committed or did not..

 

[Turk]

Basically the only knock of harbaugh is that he dumps kids who verbal to him since they pull up lame or otherwise are borderline academic.

Get real people and stop your barbie tantrums if thats all you have on him. Grow up!

And dont fool yourselves, none of you care about some kid you dont know, some of u r just upset he always kicks our ass in recruiting andon the field. Give him credit for doin it right and creating a proud winner image wherever he goes.

 

[corbi296]

That's not the knock. I find it comical that you are telling people to get real. Twilight Zone!

 

[gocatsgo2003]

So, your example of a kid that was screwed is Daniel Davis who ended up at an Ivy League school and Kain Colter who ended up at NU. How is that ruining a kid's life? Or the kid that ended up a starter in the Big 12? Show me d the kid that was left without a destination, where Harbaugh ruined the kid's life?

I guess I'm not seeing how the man ruins people's lives. Kids like Colter and Davis made a decision to land elsewhere. In very GOOD positions I may add. It's not like these kids are left out in the cold where nowhere to go. As far as the bad blood is concerned with HS coaches, it sure doesn't look like it hurts Stanford much at all given their continued recruiting success. Again, I'm not saying we should emulate what they are doing in every respect, but I'm not sure the situation is as bad as you make it out to be - and based on the input from a real parent, it doesn't seem like the experience is universal.

So because it turned out well for some kids means that it's all good? All's well that ends well?

I don't think anyone has really put forth the idea that he ruins kid's lives. It's more that he took advantage of the naivete of high school prospects for his own gain, which is pretty reprehensible in my eyes.

Though the situation technically happened under Shaw, remember how pissed off Jontrey Tillman's high school coach was when Stanford dropped him literally two weeks before signing day? Read the story for yourself to see what they did to him, a guy who had a 4.0 GPA and 26 ACT. It is emblematic of tactics that started under Harbaugh and carried over to Shaw.

Does it really make it OK because the kid scrambled for a scholarship to Houston when his other options had dried up during his six month commitment to Stanford? Shoot, the story blew up enough that USA Today picked it up, with the following quote from the kid's high school coach:

"The kid was devastated and heartbroken," says Antoine, who is acting as Tillman's spokesman and did not make him available to speak. "He has a 4.0 grade-point average and scored a 26 on his ACT test. We can't understand it. Nobody is telling us anything. The coaches say the admissions process is secretive, and they can't ask about it. If it's the curriculum, we'd like to know. (Head coach) David Shaw said he was surprised. It sounds like there's something else under the table, like they might have found somebody else they like."

Colter, Davis, Tillman, and a slew of other prospects made one decision on their own: to accept an offer to attend and play football at Stanford. They didn't make the decision to end up somewhere besides Stanford. That decision was made for them by Harbaugh or Shaw, who used admissions as a crutch to achieve his means.

 

[gocatsgo2003]

So, there was never a scholarship that was actually pulled. Kids made the (smart) decision to go elsewhere themselves. I'm not sure I see why this is so terrible. We've done the same. I remember there was an OL that ended up at BC that we kind of did that to. Offered him, and then he tried to commit, but we kind of ignored him. Greg Gold comes to mind to, where his mom mentioned that they were interested in accepting the offer at NU, but no one was returning calls (though I acknowledge that situation was a bit different in that Gold I believe committed elsewhere first, but then had second thoughts).

You're really not going to give this up, are you?

There absolutely were scholarship offers made to these prospects. Though Harbaugh or Shaw never called them up and said "go look for opportunities elsewhere," those scholarships were effectively pulled. Isn't it actually worse to simply cut off a kid than to tell him where he actually stands?

In terms of process, a school must process and send a kid his LOI for him to sign. It is literally impossible for a kid to print out his own LOI and send it into a school, which makes sense because then you'd have kids trying to sign themselves up for programs all the time. If a kid tried to stick by his commitment to the bitter end, Stanford simply wouldn't have sent him a LOI and he would be SOL with zero options.

 

[gocatsgo2003]

Basically the only knock of harbaugh is that he dumps kids who verbal to him since they pull up lame or otherwise are borderline academic.

Get real people and stop your barbie tantrums if thats all you have on him. Grow up!

And dont fool yourselves, none of you care about some kid you dont know, some of u r just upset he always kicks our ass in recruiting andon the field. Give him credit for doin it right and creating a proud winner image wherever he goes.

Except they're not borderline academic. In the least. Based on the transcripts and test scores I saw, the guys that they turned away would have been some of the better academic performers in Stanford's classes.

 

[Gladeskat]

Didn't the same thing happen with Sean Cotton? I'm not saying we jerked him around, but he found out in the last month or two that he couldn't get in, and ended up having to settle for Eastern Michigan or something like that.

It's a risk you take, when you accept a conditional offer to a school like NU or Stanford with stringent admissions requirements. It doesn't seem to have hurt Stanford though as kids still want to go there.

NO! The Sean Cotton thing is completely different. Kinda like the difference between me bumping into you by accident because you wandered into my path and me deliberately walking over to you and punching you in the face.

How can you justify deliberately screwing over kids and families over something as unimportant as football?

 

[wychowca]

You're really not going to give this up, are you?

There absolutely were scholarship offers made to these prospects. Though Harbaugh or Shaw never called them up and said "go look for opportunities elsewhere," those scholarships were effectively pulled. Isn't it actually worse to simply cut off a kid than to tell him where he actually stands?

In terms of process, a school must process and send a kid his LOI for him to sign. It is literally impossible for a kid to print out his own LOI and send it into a school, which makes sense because then you'd have kids trying to sign themselves up for programs all the time. If a kid tried to stick by his commitment to the bitter end, Stanford simply wouldn't have sent him a LOI and he would be SOL with zero options.

How exactly is this different from a kid that decommits on signing day?

 

[NURoseBowl]

How exactly is this different from a kid that decommits on signing day?

There's nothing good about a kid doing that; no one likes it. But if you can't see the difference between an impressionable seventeen year old and a grown man running a major college football program, I don't know what to say to you.

 

[wychowca]

There's nothing good about a kid doing that; no one likes it. But if you can't see the difference between an impressionable seventeen year old and a grown man running a major college football program, I don't know what to say to you.

i hardly think that all of those 17 year old kids are naive when they decommit. many of them take these trips just to visit the country,with no intention of ever committing to that school. many of them love the attention they get when they get on TV on signing day. you're right that a coach is more fully aware of the world, but let's not pretend like these are innocent kids that are getting tossed around. it works both ways.

unfortunately, this is a nasty business these days and to compete with OSU and the SEC, you have to push every boundary. they've used over-signing and getting rid of kids with questionable injuries to become elite.

is that the right way to do things? no. but with millions or billions of dollars at stake, limits are pushed. as coaches are offering kids earlier and earlier these days, there's a lot more time for kids to become injured or other kids will surpass them in terms of skills.

how is this different than someone who gets laid off at work? life can be a b*tch sometimes.

 

[corbi296]

i hardly think that all of those 17 year old kids are naive when they decommit. many of them take these trips just to visit the country,with no intention of ever committing to that school. many of them love the attention they get when they get on TV on signing day. you're right that a coach is more fully aware of the world, but let's not pretend like these are innocent kids that are getting tossed around. it works both ways.

unfortunately, this is a nasty business these days and to compete with OSU and the SEC, you have to push every boundary. they've used over-signing and getting rid of kids with questionable injuries to become elite.

is that the right way to do things? no. but with millions or billions of dollars at stake, limits are pushed. as coaches are offering kids earlier and earlier these days, there's a lot more time for kids to become injured or other kids will surpass them in terms of skills.

how is this different than someone who gets laid off at work? life can be a b*tch sometimes.

That sounds like a whole bunch of excuses. A win at all cost mentality in which the end justifies the means. A not for profit institution of higher learning as esteemed as the University of Michigan should expect its representatives to live up to a higher standard. At Northwestern we do and Fitz lives up to it every day. Hopefully Harbaugh will do so going forward.

 

[EvanstonCat]

Except they're not borderline academic. In the least. Based on the transcripts and test scores I saw, the guys that they turned away would have been some of the better academic performers in Stanford's classes.

It does sound fishy, but Stanford is EXTREMELY hard to get in, and without projecting Northwestern football's admission process on them, maybe they run things a bit differently and tie it closer to their normal standard. They turn away valedictorians and kids with perfect SATs with 4.0's. Maybe the kid(s) blew off their essays. Maybe their interview was horrendous. Maybe teacher references came back with some question marks on character (e.g. maybe they said this kid's a trouble maker who is going to start a union at your school one day and throw you under a bus even if you go out of your way to stick with him after an injury). Who knows? Your insinuation that the kids would NOT get an LOI pure speculation. Unless this happened, I would not put this out there. Also - these kids know that they still need to get into the school. They should be prepared with plan B's, or weigh the risks and make a move like Colter and Davis did. Moves, that again, were good moves. Sometimes things happen for a reason and other things weren't meant to be. Though in the case of Colter, it may have been better if he started a union in Palo Alto instead of Evanston.

 

[EvanstonCat]

NO! The Sean Cotton thing is completely different. Kinda like the difference between me bumping into you by accident because you wandered into my path and me deliberately walking over to you and punching you in the face.

How can you justify deliberately screwing over kids and families over something as unimportant as football?

I don't justify it. I question how much this really is about screwing over kids and families intentionally as is being insinuated. I guess I'm not that ready to accuse them of deliberate and gross wrongdoing without anything more than circumstantial evidence.

With Cotton, I can buy that it was a one time thing and an exception, for which according one poster a coach was summarily dismissed. What I can't buy is the suggestion that it was purely accidental, like bumping into someone accidentally because they wandered into your path, if a coach was essentially fired for it.

It seems to me this fanbase is ready to raise the pitchforks and grab the noose when it comes to other upstanding programs that happen to beat us for recruits (while we beat them on the field), yet turn a blind eye to our own actions. Take the whole idea that we never poach and offer kids that commit elsewhere. Pure hogwash. I'm glad Flynn Nagel is a Cat. BTW, after he reneged and committed to NU, I visited the Duke boards, and didn't see anyone get all pissy like they do on this board, with the exception of some people who said they would pay us back for it this fall (LOL).

I think our efforts are far better directed to chastise those programs that TRULY exploit kids and cheat with a win at all costs mentality. Like dOSU and the SEC schools. Stanford is not in the same boat.

 

[gocatsgo2003]

It does sound fishy, but Stanford is EXTREMELY hard to get in, and without projecting Northwestern football's admission process on them, maybe they run things a bit differently and tie it closer to their normal standard. They turn away valedictorians and kids with perfect SATs with 4.0's. Maybe the kid(s) blew off their essays. Maybe their interview was horrendous. Maybe teacher references came back with some question marks on character (e.g. maybe they said this kid's a trouble maker who is going to start a union at your school one day and throw you under a bus even if you go out of your way to stick with him after an injury). Who knows? Your insinuation that the kids would NOT get an LOI pure speculation. Unless this happened, I would not put this out there. Also - these kids know that they still need to get into the school. They should be prepared with plan B's, or weigh the risks and make a move like Colter and Davis did. Moves, that again, were good moves. Sometimes things happen for a reason and other things weren't meant to be. Though in the case of Colter, it may have been better if he started a union in Palo Alto instead of Evanston.

You seriously still think that football recruits go through a "normal" admissions process with interviews, essays, references, and the like? You really think Stanford would send a kid an LOI if they won't call him on the phone or send a recruiting letter? Please.

The entire point is that they're turning away kids whose academics are CLEARLY better than kids who end up at Stanford. And it ain't close. So your point about turning away valedictorians and perfect SAT scores is meaningless.

And the entire point of the Tillman story is that he DIDN'T get an answer for why he was turned down. The football staff explicitly told him that he wouldn't get an answer. The rug was simply pulled out from under him.

You can try all you like to spin webs all you'd like, but recruiting at Stanford under Harbaugh was about as grimy as it gets in a grimy world. There's really not much debating the topic.

 

[EvanstonCat]

You seriously still think that football recruits go through a "normal" admissions process with interviews, essays, references, and the like? You really think Stanford would send a kid an LOI if they won't call him on the phone or send a recruiting letter? Please.

The entire point is that they're turning away kids whose academics are CLEARLY better than kids who end up at Stanford. And it ain't close. So your point about turning away valedictorians and perfect SAT scores is meaningless.

And the entire point of the Tillman story is that he DIDN'T get an answer for why he was turned down. The football staff explicitly told him that he wouldn't get an answer. The rug was simply pulled out from under him.

You can try all you like to spin webs all you'd like, but recruiting at Stanford under Harbaugh was about as grimy as it gets in a grimy world. There's really not much debating the topic.

No, I did not say that. But, what I won't do is project my own expectations or knowledge of what NU's admission process is for football. Do you know what Stanford's process is? Just because we do things one way at NU doesn't mean it is done the same way at Stanford. It's like a fan or former recruiting staff member at Michigan projecting their own process or standard to NU. And we dare laugh at those fans from state school programs who think our process and standards are the same as theirs?

Again, you fail to understand something about Stanford. I know a bit more of it because my son goes to a private school that feeds top universities - and they have made it explicitly clear that such universities do NOT just take academics into account. It is a requirement, but there is so much more to it, including the references, the essays, extracurriculars, and evidences of leadership.

Look, I'll admit that the Tillman story sounds a bit fishy. But, I don't think whatever Stanford is doing in recruiting is quite the same as dOSU bringing unqualified kids in, failing to equip them with university quality educations, and then pulling the academic support from them and having them fail out of school to free up the scholarship for someone better if they don't perform on the field. It's not the same as SEC schools deliberately oversigning and kicking kids who can't read off the team who aren't contributing, sending them back to home with nothing and no education. All the meanwhile paying off kids who deliver on the field with hundred dollar handshakes, free cars, and free women. It's not the same as Notre Dame bringing in Prop 48 candidates who can't do the work. Those are the true evildoers in college football today, pulling out all stops to win at all costs. Not Stanford.

 

[MRCat95]

It does sound fishy, but Stanford is EXTREMELY hard to get in, and without projecting Northwestern football's admission process on them, maybe they run things a bit differently and tie it closer to their normal standard. They turn away valedictorians and kids with perfect SATs with 4.0's. Maybe the kid(s) blew off their essays. Maybe their interview was horrendous. Maybe teacher references came back with some question marks on character (e.g. maybe they said this kid's a trouble maker who is going to start a union at your school one day and throw you under a bus even if you go out of your way to stick with him after an injury). Who knows? Your insinuation that the kids would NOT get an LOI pure speculation. Unless this happened, I would not put this out there. Also - these kids know that they still need to get into the school. They should be prepared with plan B's, or weigh the risks and make a move like Colter and Davis did. Moves, that again, were good moves. Sometimes things happen for a reason and other things weren't meant to be. Though in the case of Colter, it may have been better if he started a union in Palo Alto instead of Evanston.

Hence the devious brilliance in it. There are very few, if any, Stanford football players that would get admitted to SU without football. If you wait to the last minute, you can dump a 4.0 26 ACT committed kid when you line up somebody better at his position then use academics as the pretext. Meanwhile, a stud player with a 3.3 GPA and a 23 ACT magically manages to get admitted.

The kid feels jilted, but his beef is largely ignored because SU routinely denies 4.0 GPA and 26 ACT students. It's the perfect ruse because it hides blatant dishonesty behind academic integrity (or at least snobbery).

 

[wychowca]

That sounds like a whole bunch of excuses. A win at all cost mentality in which the end justifies the means. A not for profit institution of higher learning as esteemed as the University of Michigan should expect its representatives to live up to a higher standard. At Northwestern we do and Fitz lives up to it every day. Hopefully Harbaugh will do so going forward.

You're getting a little dramatic if it's "win at all costs." Kids aren't doing steroids, they're not raping women and being kept on the team. They're slow playing kids who aren't performing as well as they were. It's not much different than your company laying you off if you spend too much time on northwestern.rivals.com.

It's a fine line to balance, because you see coaches like Pete Carroll, Nick Saban, and Jim Tressel reap the glory of bowl games and national championships while pushing the line. The Patriots are also known to push every advantage they can. Rarely, if anyone gets caught, the penalties are a slap on the wrist. Tressel was given a standing ovation when he went back to the Horseshoe. Carroll is still a hero at USC.

Michigan is in the tough situation where it thinks that it's still one of the top programs in the country, and does it with honor, but it really is falling behind the SEC and the other programs that have no problem pushing boundaries. The last decade of NCAA champions have all had that mentality (OSU, FSU, 'Bama, Auburn, FL). The last winner that doesn't have as much of a stink around it is probably UTx in '05.

Fitz does seem to do things the right way even though someone else posted some instances where he did similar things with kids. Northwestern and Fitz are certainly classy institutions, but have also been decidedly mediocre in the Fitz era (60-53 before this season). I suppose it depends on what your goals are. I don't think NU has any dreams of competing for national titles or playoffs on a consistent basis. You can absolutely do that with honor. But to be as good as Michigan wants to be, Harbaugh is going to have to cut a few corners. If you can name a school that competes at that level without doing anything suspicious in your mind, I'm all ears.

 

[gocatsgo2003]

No, I did not say that. But, what I won't do is project my own expectations or knowledge of what NU's admission process is for football. Do you know what Stanford's process is? Just because we do things one way at NU doesn't mean it is done the same way at Stanford. It's like a fan or former recruiting staff member at Michigan projecting their own process or standard to NU. And we dare laugh at those fans from state school programs who think our process and standards are the same as theirs?

Again, you fail to understand something about Stanford. I know a bit more of it because my son goes to a private school that feeds top universities - and they have made it explicitly clear that such universities do NOT just take academics into account. It is a requirement, but there is so much more to it, including the references, the essays, extracurriculars, and evidences of leadership.

Look, I'll admit that the Tillman story sounds a bit fishy. But, I don't think whatever Stanford is doing in recruiting is quite the same as dOSU bringing unqualified kids in, failing to equip them with university quality educations, and then pulling the academic support from them and having them fail out of school to free up the scholarship for someone better if they don't perform on the field. It's not the same as SEC schools deliberately oversigning and kicking kids who can't read off the team who aren't contributing, sending them back to home with nothing and no education. All the meanwhile paying off kids who deliver on the field with hundred dollar handshakes, free cars, and free women. It's not the same as Notre Dame bringing in Prop 48 candidates who can't do the work. Those are the true evildoers in college football today, pulling out all stops to win at all costs. Not Stanford.

Except you are projecting your own knowledge and expectations by implying these kids may have been turned down because of a bad interview or essay. The admission process looks very different for BCS-level prospects than it did for your application process or it will for your son's... Unless he's an all-American tight end.

And yes I do have some familiarity with Stanford's process. Recruiting and operations staffs are constantly comparing notes as a way to network, improve your own processes, etc. There are even separate operations conventions held annually. Suffice to say that the Stanford admission process only looks like a "normal" application if the coaches want it to.

 

[corbi296]

You're getting a little dramatic if it's "win at all costs." Kids aren't doing steroids, they're not raping women and being kept on the team. They're slow playing kids who aren't performing as well as they were. It's not much different than your company laying you off if you spend too much time on northwestern.rivals.com.

It's a fine line to balance, because you see coaches like Pete Carroll, Nick Saban, and Jim Tressel reap the glory of bowl games and national championships while pushing the line. The Patriots are also known to push every advantage they can. Rarely, if anyone gets caught, the penalties are a slap on the wrist. Tressel was given a standing ovation when he went back to the Horseshoe. Carroll is still a hero at USC.

Michigan is in the tough situation where it thinks that it's still one of the top programs in the country, and does it with honor, but it really is falling behind the SEC and the other programs that have no problem pushing boundaries. The last decade of NCAA champions have all had that mentality (OSU, FSU, 'Bama, Auburn, FL). The last winner that doesn't have as much of a stink around it is probably UTx in '05.

Fitz does seem to do things the right way even though someone else posted some instances where he did similar things with kids. Northwestern and Fitz are certainly classy institutions, but have also been decidedly mediocre in the Fitz era (60-53 before this season). I suppose it depends on what your goals are. I don't think NU has any dreams of competing for national titles or playoffs on a consistent basis. You can absolutely do that with honor. But to be as good as Michigan wants to be, Harbaugh is going to have to cut a few corners. If you can name a school that competes at that level without doing anything suspicious in your mind, I'm all ears.

You wouldn't feel I was being dramatic if your kid was on the receiving end of the shaft that Harbaugh gave to many kids he was recruiting at Stanford. Completely unethical behavior and the ultimate hypocrisy for a guy who while at Stanford publicly called out other programs, including Michigan, for not doing things the "right way" like they did at Stanford. Behavior that should not be tolerated at Michigan. Hopefully it's a thing of the past.

 

[EvanstonCat]

Except you are projecting your own knowledge and expectations by implying these kids may have been turned down because of a bad interview or essay. The admission process looks very different for BCS-level prospects than it did for your application process or it will for your son's... Unless he's an all-American tight end.

And yes I do have some familiarity with Stanford's process. Recruiting and operations staffs are constantly comparing notes as a way to network, improve your own processes, etc. There are even separate operations conventions held annually. Suffice to say that the Stanford admission process only looks like a "normal" application if the coaches want it to.

I'm not projecting anything. I'm saying I don't know why they were turned down, and neither really do you.

But, you are making some fair points, and some of the evidence is looking damning (e.g. Tillman). I will admit that you likely know a lot more about what's what than I do. So, I will retreat a bit to say that it appears likely Stanford plays some games. But, I will stand by my assertion that they are not the bad guys in college football. dOSU and the SEC schools are. What they do is far worse than what Stanford has ever done. And I don't think Stanford or Jim Harbaugh has done anything to come close.

I just don't understand all the indignation and hate directed towards Harbaugh for what is relatively minor when considering the gross evils of dOSU and the SEC schools. Why not direct the hate to dOSU where it is justified (or the SEC, though they are further removed like a pond of scum, unlike dOSU which brings a black mark to our family in the B1G)? That's something I would get behind in a big way. I guess I can't understand why many of the same people who are so disgusted by Harbaugh and Stanford don't seem to be offended by and hate dOSU with as much passion as I do. It's like missing the mountain for the molehill.

 

[wychowca]

I'm not projecting anything. I'm saying I don't know why they were turned down, and neither really do you.

But, you are making some fair points, and some of the evidence is looking damning (e.g. Tillman). I will admit that you likely know a lot more about what's what than I do. So, I will retreat a bit to say that it appears likely Stanford plays some games. But, I will stand by my assertion that they are not the bad guys in college football. dOSU and the SEC schools are. What they do is far worse than what Stanford has ever done. And I don't think Stanford or Jim Harbaugh has done anything to come close.

I just don't understand all the indignation and hate directed towards Harbaugh for what is relatively minor when considering the gross evils of dOSU and the SEC schools. Why not direct the hate to dOSU where it is justified (or the SEC, though they are further removed like a pond of scum, unlike dOSU which brings a black mark to our family in the B1G)? That's something I would get behind in a big way. I guess I can't understand why many of the same people who are so disgusted by Harbaugh and Stanford don't seem to be offended by and hate dOSU with as much passion as I do. It's like missing the mountain for the molehill.

There's a lot of hate for Harbaugh in the B1G now because he's kicking butt in year one. In no way is Harbaugh an angel, but you're absolutely right, when it comes to comparing him to the SEC where they pay players, provide escorts for recruits and oversign like crazy, Harbaugh is nowhere close.

 

[wychowca]

You wouldn't feel I was being dramatic if your kid was on the receiving end of the shaft that Harbaugh gave to many kids he was recruiting at Stanford. Completely unethical behavior and the ultimate hypocrisy for a guy who while at Stanford publicly called out other programs, including Michigan, for not doing things the "right way" like they did at Stanford. Behavior that should not be tolerated at Michigan. Hopefully it's a thing of the past.

Again, how is that different than a kid getting laid off from a job if he's not performing? That would also be giving a kid the shaft if he's counting on that money to pay for his college tuition.

Again, do you have an example of a college that wins consistently that doesn't delve into grey areas?

Life isn't fair, sorry that you think it is.

 

[MRCat95]

Again, how is that different than a kid getting laid off from a job if he's not performing? That would also be giving a kid the shaft if he's counting on that money to pay for his college tuition.

Again, do you have an example of a college that wins consistently that doesn't delve into grey areas?

Life isn't fair, sorry that you think it is.

What's a gray area? Making a 4 year commitment to a kid and then backing out on him at the 11th hour is not a gray area. It's pretty black and white.

I also thought there was a difference between being an NCAA amateur athlete and an at will employee.

 

[wychowca]

What's a gray area? Making a 4 year commitment to a kid and then backing out on him at the 11th hour is not a gray area. It's pretty black and white.

I also thought there was a difference between being an NCAA amateur athlete and an at will employee.

That is a gray area because it's not illegal. The law/NCAA rules are black and white. Slow playing someone is not illegal.

Of course there's a difference in many ways between being an athlete and an at-will employee. What you're complaining about is the treatment of the kid, and that's the same.

Again, this is really no different than a kid who decommits on a coach at the last minute. Things change and people get screwed.

 

[MRCat95]

Again, this is really no different than a kid who decommits on a coach at the last minute. Things change and people get screwed.

You really think the standard for coaches should be the same as 17-18 year old kids?

Let me understand this. You're justifying or condoning this unethical and dishonest behavior by saying there is no rule against it? Really? By the way, slow playing a kid is telling him you may or perhaps plan to offer him a scholarship at some point in the future, and it is quite different than offering and then accepting a commitment only to reneg months later after the kid has stopped his recruiting process (and right on the eve of signing day). Slow playing is different than flat out lying to kids and hanging them out to dry.

 

[mikewebb68]

Again, how is that different than a kid getting laid off from a job if he's not performing? That would also be giving a kid the shaft if he's counting on that money to pay for his college tuition.

Again, do you have an example of a college that wins consistently that doesn't delve into grey areas?

Life isn't fair, sorry that you think it is.

Though we appreciate the time and effort you have taken to comment on this board, don't you have to prep for for the big game you're coaching vs. Michigan State?

 

[wychowca]

You really think the standard for coaches should be the same as 17-18 year old kids?

Let me understand this. You're justifying or condoning this unethical and dishonest behavior by saying there is no rule against it? Really? By the way, slow playing a kid is telling him you may or perhaps plan to offer him a scholarship at some point in the future, and it is quite different than offering and then accepting a commitment only to reneg months later after the kid has stopped his recruiting process (and right on the eve of signing day). Slow playing is different than flat out lying to kids and hanging them out to dry.

Last I checked, an 18 year old can go die and kill for his country. The kids that take recruiting trips, leading on schools and wasting their time and money, with zero intention of ever going to that school...they're really the innocent kids you're making them out to be? The kids that decommit on signing day, when they've known for weeks or months that they're switching schools...they're innocent little babies that need your protection? Really?

Slow playing takes on several definitions. The one I'm gathering from this thread is where a kid gets an offer, commits, and months down the road, the staff isn't as interested anymore. They ignore the kid and stop returning the kid's calls, and hope the kid gets the point. At no time do they pull the offer.

Where is the story about an offer being pulled on the eve of signing day?

Read this article about Harbaugh's Stanford class in 2010, and even though it's a Michigan site, it is critical of what happened in several cases: http://mgoblog.com/content/considerable-attrition-stanfords-2010-recruiting-class

In all those instances, I don't see one case where an offer was pulled. Yes, it's GRAY and not the "nicest" thing to do to ignore the kid; but offers were not pulled.

If your biggest concern in college football is a staff ignoring a kid, then you have a really naive view of college football. Unfortunately, college football is a huge business and boundaries need to be pushed, without crossing the line, when you have the expectations that Michigan has, of winning national titles and league titles. You cannot compete with Saban, Urban, Carroll and Auburn by being nice and giving scholarships to players that have torn their ACLs. They're paying players, doing steroids, providing escorts and doing homework for their kids. Can you name one school that is viewed as "clean" that has won consistently, including national titles?

Is it right? No. When you're Northwestern, where a good season is over .500, you can do the honorable thing.

Listen, I get it. When Michigan has been down, we fans also whined about OSU cheating as well as the SEC. We were proud of being mediocre or good because at least we did things the right way. It was a way to make ourselves feel better, like you're doing after you had high hopes for the season and got destroyed this past weekend.

Have you ever dated two girls at once? Have you ever used a job offer to get a raise at another job?

 

[wychowca]

Though we appreciate the time and effort you have taken to comment on this board, don't you have to prep for for the big game you're coaching vs. Michigan State?

Did you have an opinion or are you just here to make a poor attempt at humor?

 

[mikewebb68]

Not a poor attempt at humor. You seem to be spending an inordinate amount of time defending Mr. Harbaugh; so much so that I thought you might really be him....

 

[GlideCat]

Not a poor attempt at humor. You seem to be spending an inordinate amount of time defending Mr. Harbaugh; so much so that I thought you might really be him....

If we had a coach that had taken the team from a no-bowl team to a potential national contender in one season, we might jump to defend him as well.

Wait... last week we were thinking we did have that.