Denver - Ego Over Reality

[GlideCat]

Don't worry about which quarterback gives them the best chance to win. Go with the one that you drafted earlier so that everyone thinks you are a guru.
http://www.9news.com/sports/nfl/den...ton-lynch-chance-to-be-2017-starter/388647271
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/report-paxton-lynch-will-get-every-chance-to-win-starting-job/

 

[Deeringfish]

Pride goeth before a fall. Good Luck Broncos, Good Luck America.

 

[Katatonic]

Hardly surprising (Elway wants to see his prized 1st round QB succeed, esp. since he could have had Prescott later in the draft).

Probably will see a simplified shotgun heavy O w/ maybe some read-option thrown in drawn up for Lynch.

The problem is that Siemian (unbeknownst to many Broncos fans) is very comfortable in the shotgun and will be able to do so much more out of it regarding play-calling, making adjustments, etc.

Former Broncos like Tyler Polumbus and Brandon Stokley think that even if that is the case, Siemian will win the job in camp (again) and that as long as they are splitting reps, that Siemian will continue to be ahead of Lynch.

The ? is, despite Elway stating that this will be a competition, will he end up putting all his cards on his 1st rounder and give Paxton the bulk of the 1st team reps in camp (and essentially the starting job)?

 

[NUCat320]

The Broncos didn't make the playoffs, did they? Siemian wasn't , like, a Pro Bowler, was he? It's the responsibility of the organization to give their first round pick - who has great tools and was great in his final year of college - a chance, right?

This ain't exactly sitting Rodgers because Favre is still there.

I hope Trevor wins the job, but let's be clear that he was just ... okay.

My research shows that Denver was fourth in defense and 27th in offense - I should hope they're looking at their options.

 

[GlideCat]

The Broncos didn't make the playoffs, did they? Siemian wasn't , like, a Pro Bowler, was he? It's the responsibility of the organization to give their first round pick - who has great tools and was great in his final year of college - a chance, right?

This ain't exactly sitting Rodgers because Favre is still there.

I hope Trevor wins the job, but let's be clear that he was just ... okay.

My research shows that Denver was fourth in defense and 27th in offense - I should hope they're looking at their options.

I have no problem with a fair and open competition. What I am reading between the lines is that the job is Lynch's to lose and Denver is going to do everything possible to get him the starting job even if it is not the best decision toward winning games. Read all of the linked articles and then a couple that have been written since and see how often Lynch's name is mentioned versus TS. The decision is made without regard to who is the best QB and team leader. Hence the concept of ego over reality.

 

[TheC]

Well... if you want to see Siemian's popularity go up in Denver, one thing to do is make Paxton Lynch the starting quarterback. After a few games of substandard play (because I don't think Lynch is very good), there will be a sizable portion of the Denver population clamoring for TS.

 

[GeorgiaCat]

Unless they fix the o-line, it won't matter who the starting QB is.

 

[docrugby1]

Get 2 tackles and both QBs will be better. I thought TS played pretty well. I know the game winning pass in the last game of the season hit the receiver in the chest but was dropped

 

[loyolacat]

The Denver O suffered from injuries all over , running backs, o-line and tight ends as well. One way or the other TS will land on his feet. He really impressed and surprised me last year. IMO

 

[NUCat320]

It seems to me that a first round pick who backed up a seventh rounder who led a bottom quartile offense probably *should* be given at least a 50/50 shot to get win he starting job.

 

[GlideCat]

It seems to me that a first round pick who backed up a seventh rounder who led a bottom quartile offense probably *should* be given at least a 50/50 shot to get win he starting job.

Again. I have no problem with open competition (a 50/50 shot). It does not sound like it is anything close to 50/50. Yes, I am biased toward TS. But going forward this way is not in the best interest of the team for next year. Maybe this new coaching staff sees something that last year's staff did not. But I don't think so. I think it is money and ego.

 

[NUCat320]

Again. I have no problem with open competition (a 50/50 shot). It does not sound like it is anything close to 50/50. Yes, I am biased toward TS. But going forward this way is not in the best interest of the team for next year. Maybe this new coaching staff sees something that last year's staff did not. But I don't think so. I think it is money and ego.

Taken another way, they hope he'll play because they think he has better tools and therefore greater upside. But "Trevor Siemian remains the man to beat."

Anyway, this looks like one jabroni tv guy's report, (local tv guys aren't real reporters) and another reporter reporting what that jabroni wrote.

I hope Trevor wins the job.

 

[LACatFan]

Unless they fix the o-line, it won't matter who the starting QB is.

Exactly. Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Matt Ryan, Dak Prescott...they'd all get murdered behind that line. Look how banged up Russell Wilson got this season trying to survive behind Seattle's disaster OL?

 

[TheC]

Exactly. Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Matt Ryan, Dak Prescott...they'd all get murdered behind that line. Look how banged up Russell Wilson got this season trying to survive behind Seattle's disaster OL?

Maybe if we really cared about TS we'd root for him NOT to win the starting job in Denver

 

[hdhntr1]

The Broncos didn't make the playoffs, did they? Siemian wasn't , like, a Pro Bowler, was he? It's the responsibility of the organization to give their first round pick - who has great tools and was great in his final year of college - a chance, right?

This ain't exactly sitting Rodgers because Favre is still there.

I hope Trevor wins the job, but let's be clear that he was just ... okay.

My research shows that Denver was fourth in defense and 27th in offense - I should hope they're looking at their options.

Denver's OL definitely was a weak point. And I don't think their O was a world beater even with a HOF QB and another that the Texans paid big money for. No TS wasn't thew second coming but he also was not the reason that they did not make it to the playoffs this year. His performance was pretty solid and you definitely saw Denver take a step back when he was not available.

 

[WestCoastWildcat]

The new Broncos OC Mike McCoy (former Chargers HC) is a better OC than HC and should help Trevor. As someone else mentioned the Bronco's need help on their o-line to protect Trevor better, he was getting killed back there towards the end of the year.

(My new favorite place to watch NFL games now in SD besides the local Oggi's is a sports bar ironically called Chief's in Solana Beach near the train station- it's the local watering hole for Bronco's fans. Many of the Bronco's fans I've talked to there really like Trevor and were pleasantly surprised by his play last season.)

 

[HawkCat]

It seems to me that a first round pick who backed up a seventh rounder who led a bottom quartile offense probably *should* be given at least a 50/50 shot to get win he starting job.

With all due respect, it seems to me that you didn't watch much of the Broncos this year. I watched all but two of their games. It was obvious that Trevor was not responsible for the offense being in the bottom quartile. The OL was absolutely horrid. Injuries to RBs also led to literally no running game at times. And the receiving corps was inconsistent. Trevor made some bad decisions from time to time, but he was actually one of the better performers on the O this year. If the coaches thought Lynch could have made a difference, they would have played him.

 

[Deeringfish]

With all due respect, it seems to me that you didn't watch much of the Broncos this year. I watched all but two of their games. It was obvious that Trevor was not responsible for the offense being in the bottom quartile. The OL was absolutely horrid. Injuries to RBs also led to literally no running game at times. And the receiving corps was inconsistent. Trevor made some bad decisions from time to time, but he was actually one of the better performers on the O this year. If the coaches thought Lynch could have made a difference, they would have played him.

Didn't watch as many games as you but watched and listened to all I could. I agree with your assessment.

 

[NUCat320]

With all due respect, it seems to me that you didn't watch much of the Broncos this year. I watched all but two of their games. It was obvious that Trevor was not responsible for the offense being in the bottom quartile. The OL was absolutely horrid. Injuries to RBs also led to literally no running game at times. And the receiving corps was inconsistent. Trevor made some bad decisions from time to time, but he was actually one of the better performers on the O this year. If the coaches thought Lynch could have made a difference, they would have played him.

I'm due no respect, and I saw about 30 snaps on opening night and maybe ten more plays the rest of the way.

But -
A first round pick is a first round pick because of his tools. It is reasonable, based on tools, to project Lynch to be a better player. Ceilings matter.

Siemian had a nice season, but his season was closer to Case Keenum's or Brock Osweiler's (bad quarterbacks) than it was Aaron Rodgers' or Matt Ryan's (good quarterbacks).

Paxton Lynch might be *David* Carr or EJ Manuel or Christian Ponder (failed high picks), but he might also be *Derek* Carr or Cam Newton or Ben Roethlisberger (successful high picks).

And, of course, there's a possibility that Trevor Siemian is the next Tom Brady (hall of famer who was drafted late), but there a probability that he's closer to Brad Sorensen (former seventh rounder who wasn't as good as Brady - yes , I used Wikipedia.)

The point is - of *course* Lynch gets a shot to beat out Siemian. And I hope Trevor gets the job, but Trevor wasn't exactly Dak Prescott or Russell Wilson of a few years ago - he didn't show up and dominate.

The point is - Lynch getting a shot does *not* mean Trevor is bad. It means that they think Lynch can be very, very good. They're hoping for a good problem.

 

[NJCat]

I'm due no respect, and I saw about 30 snaps on opening night and maybe ten more plays the rest of the way.

But -
A first round pick is a first round pick because of his tools. It is reasonable, based on tools, to project Lynch to be a better player. Ceilings matter.

Siemian had a nice season, but his season was closer to Case Keenum's or Brock Osweiler's (bad quarterbacks) than it was Aaron Rodgers' or Matt Ryan's (good quarterbacks).

Paxton Lynch might be *David* Carr or EJ Manuel or Christian Ponder (failed high picks), but he might also be *Derek* Carr or Cam Newton or Ben Roethlisberger (successful high picks).

And, of course, there's a possibility that Trevor Siemian is the next Tom Brady (hall of famer who was drafted late), but there a probability that he's closer to Brad Sorensen (former seventh rounder who wasn't as good as Brady - yes , I used Wikipedia.)

The point is - of *course* Lynch gets a shot to beat out Siemian. And I hope Trevor gets the job, but Trevor wasn't exactly Dak Prescott or Russell Wilson of a few years ago - he didn't show up and dominate.

The point is - Lynch getting a shot does *not* mean Trevor is bad. It means that they think Lynch can be very, very good. They're hoping for a good problem.

Remember, Johnny Manziel was also a first round pick.......

 

[NUCat320]

Remember, Johnny Manziel was also a first round pick.......

So we're EJ Manuel and Christian Ponder and David Carr...

But, on average, a first round quarterback can be expected to have a better career than any seventh round quarterback.

Are people truly arguing that it's some sort of injustice that a first-round pick is getting the chance to win a starting job in his second season?

 

[NJCat]

But, on average, a first round quarterback can be expected to have a better career than any seventh round quarterback.

I agree with that. But more first round QBs flame out than succeed in the NFL. QB is the toughest transition from the college game to the NFL.

 

[HawkCat]

Are people truly arguing that it's some sort of injustice that a first-round pick is getting the chance to win a starting job in his second season?

No, not arguing that at all. If Lynch is playing better, he absolutely should get a chance to start. All reports out of Broncos practices before and throughout the season were that Trevor was clearly outplaying Lynch. Are you arguing that there should be a thumb on the scale in favor of Lynch simply because he was a first round draft pick?

 

[NUCat320]

I agree with that. But more first round QBs flame out than succeed in the NFL. QB is the toughest transition from the college game to the NFL.

That's an unsound comparison. Most low round picks never get a chance to flame out.

I promise you a plurality - if not a simple majority - of pro bowlers and hall of famers are also first round picks. You remember the first rounders, no matter how they turn out.

If Dak Prescott never won the job, you would have no idea who he was. And you won't consider Connor Cook or Cardale Jones, the other fourth round quarterbacks - total failures if they never see the field (and Jones and Cook both were better prospects at the start of their final seasons!).


If Paxton Lynch never wins a job, you'll know and consider him a bust.

 

[Styre]

The Broncos didn't make the playoffs, did they? Siemian wasn't , like, a Pro Bowler, was he?

Actually, he was invited to the Pro Bowl today but declined due to injury.

Of course, that's more because of so many other QBs pulling out for various reasons than anything he did, but technically, yes, he's a Pro Bowler.

 

[NUCat320]

No, not arguing that at all. If Lynch is playing better, he absolutely should get a chance to start. All reports out of Broncos practices before and throughout the season were that Trevor was clearly outplaying Lynch. Are you arguing that there should be a thumb on the scale in favor of Lynch simply because he was a first round draft pick?

I don't think a quarterback who led a bottom quartile offense should be granted the starting job.

If, in a theoretical open competition, Lynch and Siemian finish in a dead heat, then Lynch probably is the candidate.

Tools play. His tools got him drafted in the first round.

 

[Gladeskat]

I don't think a quarterback who led a bottom quartile offense should be granted the starting job.

If, in a theoretical open competition, Lynch and Siemian finish in a dead heat, then Lynch probably is the candidate.

Tools play. His tools got him drafted in the first round.

I don't think someone who hardly saw Trevor play this year can begin to evaluate his performance last season.

 

[NUCat320]

I don't think someone who hardly saw Trevor play this year can begin to evaluate his performance last season.

I stated a fact. I didn't evaluate his performance.

Again, of *course* a first rounder gets a shot to beat him out this offseason. It would be much bigger news if they said "Trevor's our guy and Lynch will sit."

Literally, the story here is:
1. Broncos brass hopes to determine if Lynch is ready to play.
2. Lynch will have to earn it, because Siemian remains the man to beat.

You're like a bunch of little libs just looking for a way to he offended. </s>

Has anyone read the initial article?

 

[Katatonic]

Get 2 tackles and both QBs will be better. I thought TS played pretty well. I know the game winning pass in the last game of the season hit the receiver in the chest but was dropped

The Broncos need more than 2 new tackles on the O-line, they need 2 new guards as well.

The one above average O-lineman Denver had was their center, Paradis, but he just had off-season surgery on both hips.

Good guard play is under-valued when it comes to the passing game.

Too many time, Garcia or Schofield would be pushed back into Siemian or just totally whiff on a block (more so Garcia) - which is why Siemian got antsy moving up into the pocket since he didn't trust the protection in the middle, and instead, would move back and slide to the left or right.

Drew Brees is the master of evading the edge rusher by stepping up into the pocket, but he also has 2 pretty good guards blocking for him.

The Denver O suffered from injuries all over , running backs, o-line and tight ends as well. One way or the other TS will land on his feet. He really impressed and surprised me last year. IMO

Even w/o all the injuries, really no difference maker/playmaker at RB, TE or 3rd/slot receiver.

So basically opposing defenses just had to limit/take away the 2 outside receivers (DT and Sanders), by dropping 2 safeties back - after Siemian burned the Cincy and Chiefs defenses (the 1st game) when they blitzed, teams just sat back in coverage as there was no threat in the Broncos run game and no receiving threat in the middle of the field.

In fact, when it came to RB, TE and 3rd/slot receiver, the rest of the division had better players.

There's a reason why Elway (who prizes having draft picks) traded a 5th rnd pick for a TE (a converted QB), Derby, who showed some promise but also made a few key drops and fumbled twice in key moments.

Speaking of dropsies - the other TEs on the roster and all the receivers (the Broncos ended up carrying 9 receivers) who rotated in the 3rd slot dropped balls in key moments (so many dropped on what would have been a 1st down conversion).

Must've have been deja-vu for Siemian - porous O-line, lack of a run game (a run game so bad, couldn't convert on 3rd and 1, so Kubiak finally had to resort to the QB sneak even w/ his QB playing hurt) and the dropsies.

In the draft and free agency, Elway will be looking for O-linemen, probably a TE and a playmaker at WR or RB (or getting both in one if they draft McCaffrey, who can also line up as a slot receiver); actually would be 3-for-1 as McCaffrey would be an instant boost to the return game (something Siemian also didn't have during his last yr at NU) which stunk for the Broncos.

Exactly. Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Matt Ryan, Dak Prescott...they'd all get murdered behind that line. Look how banged up Russell Wilson got this season trying to survive behind Seattle's disaster OL?

RW is in the prime of his career and just had his worst season.

The Seahawks play in a significantly worse division than the Broncos (who play in the best) and yet, they managed to win 1 more game than the Broncos.

Look at the season Luck had in 2015 - 55% completion rate, 15 TDs and 12 INTs, playing banged up behind a crappy O-line (before he finally got knocked out for the season) and that was Luck's 4th season as a starter.

Denver's OL definitely was a weak point. And I don't think their O was a world beater even with a HOF QB and another that the Texans paid big money for. No TS wasn't thew second coming but he also was not the reason that they did not make it to the playoffs this year. His performance was pretty solid and you definitely saw Denver take a step back when he was not available.

After the 2 outside receivers, QB was the next least problem area for the Denver O (that is, when Lynch wasn't playing).

With all due respect, it seems to me that you didn't watch much of the Broncos this year. I watched all but two of their games. It was obvious that Trevor was not responsible for the offense being in the bottom quartile. The OL was absolutely horrid. Injuries to RBs also led to literally no running game at times. And the receiving corps was inconsistent. Trevor made some bad decisions from time to time, but he was actually one of the better performers on the O this year. If the coaches thought Lynch could have made a difference, they would have played him.

Kubiak's staff considered Lynch a project.

So much so, that they rushed Siemian back from his shoulder injury rather than play Lynch for a 2nd consecutive start.

Taken another way, they hope he'll play because they think he has better tools and therefore greater upside. But "Trevor Siemian remains the man to beat."

Too many just focus on the physical tools when the most important thing for a QB in the NFL is up in the noggin.

 

[Katatonic]

I hope Trevor wins the job, but let's be clear that he was just ... okay.

My research shows that Denver was fourth in defense and 27th in offense - I should hope they're looking at their options.

OK - is more than fine for a 1st year starter playing behind one of the worst pass protecting O-lines in the NFL with no run support.

I'm due no respect, and I saw about 30 snaps on opening night and maybe ten more plays the rest of the way.

But -
A first round pick is a first round pick because of his tools. It is reasonable, based on tools, to project Lynch to be a better player. Ceilings matter.

Most QBs who end up making it to an NFL roster have/had better physical tools than Peyton Manning, Brady and Brees.

Manning, Brady and Brees are not who they are b/c they have great physical tools.

ISiemian had a nice season, but his season was closer to Case Keenum's or Brock Osweiler's (bad quarterbacks) than it was Aaron Rodgers' or Matt Ryan's (good quarterbacks).

Are you frickin' serious?

1st off, Rodgers and Ryan played behind much better O-lines -

According PFF...

GB - 5th
ATL - 6th

In fact, all of the teams that played in AFC/NFC Championships had top 10 O-lines.

Denver had the 24th ranked O-line (and even that is too high, simply b/c PFF loves Paradis).

2nd, Rodgers and Ryan are grizzled vets - Rodgers in his 9th season as a starter (and 12 overall) and Ryan in his 9th, as opposed to a 1st year starter.

These are Siemian's stats:

14 games (actually 13.5), 59.5% completion rate, 3,401 yds, 18 TDs, 10 INTs

And here are the stats for another QB in his 1st year as a starter:

16 games, 61.1% completion rate, 3,440 yds, 16 TDs, 11 INTs

Pretty comparable - wouldn't you say?

Well, that QB happens to be Matt Ryan.

And Ryan had more support (the Broncos QBs this season were sacked 40 times; Ryan in his 1st year was sacked only 17 times in comparison, and not only that, had much more support in the run game - Atlanta in 2008 gained about a thousand more yds on the ground than the Broncos did this season).

Geeze, based on your analysis - the franchises for these QBs should have looked/be looking for another QB after their just OK 1st seasons as a starter.

16 gms - 58.1%, 3,270 yds (and a measly 5.46 average), 21 TDs, 12 INTs
12 gms - 62.2%, 2,818 yds, 19 TDs, 10 INTs (also 10 fumbles)
16 gms - 62.4%, 3,782 yds, 16 TDs, 14 INTs

IPaxton Lynch might be *David* Carr or EJ Manuel or Christian Ponder (failed high picks), but he might also be *Derek* Carr or Cam Newton or Ben Roethlisberger (successful high picks).

Funny you say that b/c the 1st of the above stats is for Derek Carr (followed by Mariota and Wentz).

As for Derek's brother David, Derek is on record saying that David had better tools than him and that he learned so much about playing the QB position from his brother.

Unfortunately for David, he had the misfortune of playing for the new Houston franchise and got hammered behind a crap O-line for 5 seasons.

And speaking of Cam, one could say that Siemian had a better season as a QB.

15 gms, 52.9% completion rate, 3,509 yds, 19 TDs, 14 INTs

Cam had that great year in 2015 (playing a soft schedule), but I wouldn't pick him as my starting QB if I were the GM of a team.

Cam still can't make good pre-snap reads and has trouble deciphering defenses.

Jameis Winston is going to end up being a much better NFL QB than Cam (unlike Cam, he's not an athlete trying to play the QB position).

Now, let's go back to the stats game, shall we?

16 gms, 56.7% completion rate, 3.739 yds, 26 TDs, 28 INTs
11 gms, 52.9%, 1,749 yds, 9 TDs, 18 INTs
11 gms, 47.5%, 1,663 yds, 7 TDs, 14 INTs

Pretty horrible stat lines for a QB - no?

Should have been kicked out of the league after those seasons.

But all 3 are in the HoF (or will be there shortly).

Peyton Mannjng
Aikman
Elway

IAnd, of course, there's a possibility that Trevor Siemian is the next Tom Brady (hall of famer who was drafted late), but there a probability that he's closer to Brad Sorensen (former seventh rounder who wasn't as good as Brady - yes , I used Wikipedia.)

IThe point is - of *course* Lynch gets a shot to beat out Siemian. And I hope Trevor gets the job, but Trevor wasn't exactly Dak Prescott or Russell Wilson of a few years ago - he didn't show up and dominate.

Um, did Trevor have the O-lines and run games that Prescott and Wilson had the good fortune of playing behind in their 1st year as a starter?

How did the Seahawks end up doing this year?

1 more win than the Broncos despite playing in a crappy division (w/ the Broncos playing in the toughest and getting the toughest schedule as the SB champ).

Guess that means a veteran Wilson is not much better than a green Siemian, much less his younger self.

(Gotta love it when supposed football fans don't even take things like the O-line, experience, etc. into account - just screams of laziness or worse).

I
The point is - Lynch getting a shot does *not* mean Trevor is bad. It means that they think Lynch can be very, very good. They're hoping for a good problem.

Lynch, could end up being very good, but he could also end up being nothing more than a so-so starting QB or even a bust.

I don't think a quarterback who led a bottom quartile offense should be granted the starting job.

If, in a theoretical open competition, Lynch and Siemian finish in a dead heat, then Lynch probably is the candidate.

Tools play. His tools got him drafted in the first round.

Problems is, the #1 tool for a QB is what's in his head.

Lynch had problems picking up the playbook and there was scuttlebutt that he didn't put in the work (that Siemian did).

Chances of the 2 finishing in a dead hit next pre-season are slim.

Trent Dilfer and Joel Klatt think Lynch is at least couple of years away (maybe as much as 4 years).

And this is what Tim Hasselbeck had to say of the QB situation...

But, Hasselbeck told 104.3 The Fan’s “Schlereth and Evans” on Thursday, first-year starter Trevor Siemian played “pretty well,” so much that the former NFL quarterback would trust him over 2016 first-round draft pick Paxton Lynch.

“It’s not like the season was perfect. But remember, this was his first year as a starter as well,” Hasselbeck said. “I’m just telling you, right now for me, I would feel more confident in Trevor Siemian as the starter next year in terms of playing winning football than I would Paxton Lynch.”

Even though Lynch saw the field much less than Siemian last year, Hasselbeck said that the second-year pro’s play was “far superior” and the competition wasn’t “really close at all.”

Gee, you think these former NFL QBs in Dilfer and Hasselbeck don't know what they are talking about?

Nothing surprising, since it's the same thing that Tyler Polumbus, Brandon Stokley, and other former Broncos have been saying all season.

And this is what 2 DCs who faced the Broncos and 2 NFL QB coaches had to say about Siemian...

Those surveyed echoed Joseph's thoughts. One of the defensive coordinators offered that if the Broncos had been able to give Siemian a cleaner pocket more often, he could have been a 4,000-yard passer. Siemian missed two starts with injuries and finished with 3,401 yards.

Where Siemian’s work is to be done, they said, was first physically -- that he simply must get stronger. Siemian had left (non-throwing) shoulder surgery in the days following the season, so he won't be able to begin his workouts until he is cleared medically.

Those surveyed also said his willingness to stand in, take a hit and still make a throw showed he keeps his eyes downfield and can work when there is traffic around him. But they added that he tends to hold the ball when stressed at times -- common among young quarterbacks who worry about the impact of mistakes on their playing status -- and takes too many unnecessary hits.

The defensive coaches noted that Siemian can be difficult to defend at his best, because he did show he could fit passes into tight spaces. But he also takes risks at times he shouldn’t with passes outside the numbers.

But he showed command in the no-huddle, they said, as well as some quality late-game work, and their belief overall was Siemian would be difficult to unseat if he progresses quickly in the new offense -- and if the Broncos' competition is truly open. They said Siemian also has to demonstrate he isn't a "plateau player" right now who has already shown what his best will be, that he still can reach higher levels of development.

http://www.espn.com/blog/denver-bro...r-siemian-or-paxton-lynch-to-win-starting-job

I stated a fact. I didn't evaluate his performance.

Correct - you stated A fact, one that could be misleading if placed in the improper context (which you did).

You're like a bunch of little libs just looking for a way to he offended.

No one gets more offended and whiny like the right, and they use alterna-facts or incomplete facts to paint a misleading picture.

 

[Wrestlerneverdiesasacatfan]

OK - is more than fine for a 1st year starter playing behind one of the worst pass protecting O-lines in the NFL with no run support.




Most QBs who end up making it to an NFL roster have/had better physical tools than Peyton Manning, Brady and Brees.

Manning, Brady and Brees are not who they are b/c they have great physical tools.




Are you frickin' serious?

1st off, Rodgers and Ryan played behind much better O-lines -

According PFF...

GB - 5th
ATL - 6th

In fact, all of the teams that played in AFC/NFC Championships had top 10 O-lines.

Denver had the 24th ranked O-line (and even that is too high, simply b/c PFF loves Paradis).

2nd, Rodgers and Ryan are grizzled vets - Rodgers in his 9th season as a starter (and 12 overall) and Ryan in his 9th, as opposed to a 1st year starter.

These are Siemian's stats:

14 games (actually 13.5), 59.5% completion rate, 3,401 yds, 18 TDs, 10 INTs

And here are the stats for another QB in his 1st year as a starter:

16 games, 61.1% completion rate, 3,440 yds, 16 TDs, 11 INTs

Pretty comparable - wouldn't you say?

Well, that QB happens to be Matt Ryan.

And Ryan had more support (the Broncos QBs this season were sacked 40 times; Ryan in his 1st year was sacked only 17 times in comparison, and not only that, had much more support in the run game - Atlanta in 2008 gained about a thousand more yds on the ground than the Broncos did this season).

Geeze, based on your analysis - the franchises for these QBs should have looked/be looking for another QB after their just OK 1st seasons as a starter.

16 gms - 58.1%, 3,270 yds (and a measly 5.46 average), 21 TDs, 12 INTs
12 gms - 62.2%, 2,818 yds, 19 TDs, 10 INTs (also 10 fumbles)
16 gms - 62.4%, 3,782 yds, 16 TDs, 14 INTs




Funny you say that b/c the 1st of the above stats is for Derek Carr (followed by Mariota and Wentz).

As for Derek's brother David, Derek is on record saying that David had better tools than him and that he learned so much about playing the QB position from his brother.

Unfortunately for David, he had the misfortune of playing for the new Houston franchise and got hammered behind a crap O-line for 5 seasons.

And speaking of Cam, one could say that Siemian had a better season as a QB.

15 gms, 52.9% completion rate, 3,509 yds, 19 TDs, 14 INTs

Cam had that great year in 2015 (playing a soft schedule), but I wouldn't pick him as my starting QB if I were the GM of a team.

Cam still can't make good pre-snap reads and has trouble deciphering defenses.

Jameis Winston is going to end up being a much better NFL QB than Cam (unlike Cam, he's not an athlete trying to play the QB position).

Now, let's go back to the stats game, shall we?

16 gms, 56.7% completion rate, 3.739 yds, 26 TDs, 28 INTs
11 gms, 52.9%, 1,749 yds, 9 TDs, 18 INTs
11 gms, 47.5%, 1,663 yds, 7 TDs, 14 INTs

Pretty horrible stat lines for a QB - no?

Should have been kicked out of the league after those seasons.

But all 3 are in the HoF (or will be there shortly).

Peyton Mannjng
Aikman
Elway






Um, did Trevor have the O-lines and run games that Prescott and Wilson had the good fortune of playing behind in their 1st year as a starter?

How did the Seahawks end up doing this year?

1 more win than the Broncos despite playing in a crappy division (w/ the Broncos playing in the toughest and getting the toughest schedule as the SB champ).

Guess that means a veteran Wilson is not much better than a green Siemian, much less his younger self.

(Gotta love it when supposed football fans don't even take things like the O-line, experience, etc. into account - just screams of laziness or worse).




Lynch, could end up being very good, but he could also end up being nothing more than a so-so starting QB or even a bust.




Problems is, the #1 tool for a QB is what's in his head.

Lynch had problems picking up the playbook and there was scuttlebutt that he didn't put in the work (that Siemian did).

Chances of the 2 finishing in a dead hit next pre-season are slim.

Trent Dilfer and Joel Klatt think Lynch is at least couple of years away (maybe as much as 4 years).

And this is what Tim Hasselbeck had to say of the QB situation...



Gee, you think these former NFL QBs in Dilfer and Hasselbeck don't know what they are talking about?

Nothing surprising, since it's the same thing that Tyler Polumbus, Brandon Stokley, and other former Broncos have been saying all season.

And this is what 2 DCs who faced the Broncos and 2 NFL QB coaches had to say about Siemian...



http://www.espn.com/blog/denver-bro...r-siemian-or-paxton-lynch-to-win-starting-job




Correct - you stated A fact, one that could be misleading if placed in the improper context (which you did).




No one gets more offended and whiny like the right, and they use alterna-facts or incomplete facts to paint a misleading picture.

Great stats go Trevor

 

[GlideCat]

2. Lynch will have to earn it, because Siemian remains the man to beat.

Has anyone read the initial article?

I read several articles on this and the general thread through all of them was that Lynch was considered the man to beat and that the Broncos were going to do everything possible to create an offense that worked with his skills. Please review the three separate links in the OP to see where this is coming from. TS appears to be on the outside looking in. That is what prompted the OP. I have no problem with open competition but the focus is clearly on "How can we get Lynch as the starter?" rather than "Who is the best QB to win games?"

 

[NUCat320]

@Katatonic Trevor will probably win the job if he's as good as you describe.

Seriously - Do you think that Lynch should enter the year as the definite #2, and Siemian as the unquestioned starter?

I think that Lynch should get a chance to compete.

That's all I've said.
Clearly I've touched a nerve.

 

[DaCat]

Siemian haters have one more obstacle to overcome.

 

[ricko654321]

@Katatonic Trevor will probably win the job if he's as good as you describe.

Seriously - Do you think that Lynch should enter the year as the definite #2, and Siemian as the unquestioned starter?

I think that Lynch should get a chance to compete.

That's all I've said.
Clearly I've touched a nerve.

Nah I think you missed the point.

The quotes from the coaching staff and the articles didn't say Lynch deserves "a chance to compete". No one would have had an issue with that at all, of course he does. If he plays better in the offseason and preseason then he should start.

The quotes from the coaching staff said he will be given every opportunity and advantage to take the job, which doesn't make sense if you want to maximize your chances to win. And also doesn't really make sense if you watched Trevor and Lynch play last year - just cause Trevor was clearly better doesn't mean Lynch can't improve and pass him, but he didn't show anything to suggest that the offense should be crafted around him or that he should receive preferential treatment relative to Trevor. Even in terms of leadership, the rest of the offense seemed to like Trev better (though admittedly that is based on subjective interpretation of comments from players).

It's also a very stark contrast from Kubiak, who said over and over again that the best player would win the job and he just wanted to give the team the best chance to win, which the subsequent play of the 2 QBs bore out. Also no one is suggesting it's an injustice, this is the NFL not a government job, just that it seems a strange approach for the new coaching staff to take.

And re "hit a nerve", like is it some shock to you that as Northwestern fans who haven't had a starting QB in the NFL since basically Otto Graham, we are cheering for Trevor to succeed? Hoping Trevor overcomes the challenges and wins back the job. If he doesn't, I'm pretty confident he'll get another shot somewhere based on his play last year.

 

[HawkCat]

@Katatonic
I think that Lynch should get a chance to compete.

That's all I've said.

But that's not all you've said. You also said this in response to one of my posts above: "I don't think a quarterback who led a bottom quartile offense should be granted the starting job."

No one is saying Lynch should not get a chance to compete. But everyone is rejecting the notion that you should make Lynch the presumptive starter simply based on draft status and physical tools. Or simply because the offense was in the bottom quartile due to deficiencies at positions other than QB.

 

[NUCat320]

But that's not all you've said. You also said this in response to one of my posts above: "I don't think a quarterback who led a bottom quartile offense should be granted the starting job."

No one is saying Lynch should not get a chance to compete. But everyone is rejecting the notion that you should make Lynch the presumptive starter simply based on draft status and physical tools. Or simply because the offense was in the bottom quartile due to deficiencies at positions other than QB.

Granted the job = nobody will compete with him.

If you are saying he should be granted the job, you are saying that nobody should have to compete with him.

What you just wrote - "no one is saying Lynch should not get a chance to compete" literally means Trevor should not be given the job simply based on his 2016 accomplishment.

Like you (if I'm interpreting what you wrote above correctly), you think Lynch should be able to compete for the role.

 

[HawkCat]

What you just wrote - "no one is saying Lynch should not get a chance to compete" literally means Trevor should not be given the job simply based on his 2016 accomplishment.

False.

 

[NUCat320]

False.

So, are you saying that Trevor Siemian should be the undisputed starter?

If you are, then you are saying that Lynch should definitely sit. By definition, then, you believe that Lynch should not have a chance to compete for the job.

But earlier, you wrote that Lynch should be given a chance to compete for the job. You cannot believe both that Trevor is the undisputed starter and Lynch should be given a chance to compete for the job. They are mutually exclusive.

Note that the first link specifically calls Siemian "the man to beat."

 

[HawkCat]

So, are you saying that Trevor Siemian should be the undisputed starter?

If you are, then you are saying that Lynch should definitely sit. By definition, then, you believe that Lynch should not have a chance to compete for the job.

But earlier, you wrote that Lynch should be given a chance to compete for the job. You cannot believe both that Trevor is the undisputed starter and Lynch should be given a chance to compete for the job. They are mutually exclusive.

Note that the first link specifically calls Siemian "the man to beat."

I have repeatedly made clear that I am NOT saying that Siemian should be the undisputed starter. Quit implying that I am. I am perfectly fine with an open competition during the offseason and in preseason camp. I am saying that if Trevor is playing better in practice, he should start. Period. If Lynch is playing better in practice, he should start. Period. You are the one saying that Siemian should effectively be disqualified from starting solely because (a) the Denver offense finished in the bottom quartile last year, and/or (b) Lynch was a first round pick with better physical tools. With that I vehemently disagree. Only someone who didn't watch the games would think that.