College basketball is dominated by guard play and we just don't have any. Penetration by Oklahoma guards was the difference in the game. I hate to keep going back to the bad luck with Lathan, but it is what it is, and we will continue to lose a lot of close games because other than Law, no one can create his own shot or shots for anyone else. That said, Taylor and Turner have been huge disappointments. Against Indiana, both missed open 3s in the final minute and a half that would have put us in front and then tonight, Taylor misses a wide open look from 12 feet in the final seconds and Turner bricks a crucial 1-and-1 free throw.
Guards, Guards, Guards
- Thread starter Catreporter
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OU's starting guards, any they were a combined 12-37 and 4-15 for 3. and collectively OU co had only 19 assists on 32 made field goals (by contrast, we assisted on 20 of 29 FG). This does not statistically present the picture of guard domination that you state. The only real penetration that I saw was when Gaines lost his man uncharacteristically a couple of times, and Vic was illegally screened off his man. A lot of time, they penetrated right into turnovers. Their forward and center did a lot more effecitve work than any of their guards, imo.
Here are the reasons we lost this game, imo.
1) Ryan Taylor 2-11 from 3
2) Outrebounded 52-36 including 18-8 on the offensive glass
Oklahoma got to the rim a lot more than NU did, causing a lot of their offensive rebounds so even when the guards missed, others were able to clean up. And what happened in the overtime was they had lots of close in shots while we were jacking up contested threes. Our lack of quicks on offense is noticeable and I am very worried that even Illini with their backcourt pressure will do us in. Our team isn't terrible, but The BIG is really good this year!
Agree to disagree I guess We held their best guard to a miserable 5-21 night with 2 assists. In the OT, we were gassed-- the rest of the game, there was not a ton of guard penetration, as evidenced by their low assists to made baskets. We actually looked good on offense, I thought, with only 10 turnovers total in regulation and OT and a lot of god looks from close in (26 pts in the paint, not including several missed layups) and effectively rotated the ball outside when Pardon was doubled (there was a stretch in the second half where we were working the ball amazingly well through Pardon he was making all the right decisions, and it was an absolute thing of beauty. We were one missed wide open Ryan Taylor shot that he makes in his sleep away from winning a phenomenally played game with few turnovers on either side, excellent defense without fouling and clutch shots from both teams. I think we'll be alright
We'll be alright when?? We are 0-2 in conference and have lost our only two games against good non-conference opponents? Time is up. Have to win now, not later. There is no later. Tonight was tough. Cats have yet to really notch an impressive win. Closely contested losses to good teams? Sure. That gets you exactly squat in the post season. Gotta find a way to win.
Hate to keep harping on the guy, but where is this MVC leading scorer? Where is that scorer's mentality and killer instinct? You're a 5th year senior on a team that needs you. Step up!
Long season; still 18 conference games to go. Would rather lose these close ones in the fall and improve and win them in February than the other way around. And I like what I see for the most part thus far.
'In our Dance season, we lost close ones to Butler and Notre Dame, the only two teams in our noncon who ended up being ranked (we beat a then-ranked Texas team, but they turned out to be terrible). Then we started out 1-2 in the BIG, including a close loss to Minny. Thus,we had, to that point gone 0-2 in games vs. teams that ended up being ranked as well as 1-2 in the BIG, all vs. teams that ended up being UNRANKED. A number of fans were certainly hitting the panic button at that point, saying that it would be an NIT season or worse. But others liked what they saw, thought the wins against Dayton and Wake would end up being quality wins even though they would not be ranked (they were) and thought that the team could turn around the close ones if we just hung in there, since three of the 4 losses were decided by 4 points or less
And we all know how that turned out! Is this team as good as that team? Probably not, but too early to know for certain. Will it matter since the BIG is so awesome anyway even if we are? I don't know. But I think it will be fun to see what happens; the pieces are there for this to be a very good season. And, with 10 games vs. currently ranked teams on the schedule, the opportunities will be there...
I'm glad someone said it besides me.
I didn't expect much from Turner, so that doesnt throw me.
But Taylor? You can have him. Yes, the shooting isn't great. But for every nice shot he makes, he does a minor thing that disrupts the flow of the offense, or simply makes a bad play on defense. Either he makes his shot, or he's not giving you much.
I've seen posts about playing time, maybe coaching and a few other ideas. For me, this team can't get over the hump because they are generally undersize (too easy to double Pardon) and they just dont have a third reliable scoring threat.
We do have 4 guys averaging double figures, so I would argue that our lack of a 5th scoring option (huge dropoff there) hurts us more than Taylor's slump (and I do think he will come around-- he didn't just forget how to score). If Kopp and Gaines could just contribute an additional basket or two each per game, I think that would do wonders for the offense, imo.
Taylor's "slump" has pretty much lasted all season and he doesn't give you much in the rebounding and defense department to make up for it. He was right where he belonged in the MVC. We have two quality Big Ten players in Law and Pardon and yet we haven't beaten any good team because other starters haven't done much and our bench scoring has been pretty weak. I'm already worried about next year when we lose those two outstanding players.
Taylor took a higher percentage of his team's shots than any other player in the country last year! So he is what he is, a volume scorer who's not particularly efficient. Factor in the jump in the level of competition and it's probably not fair to expect him to be a star. I think he's better than Isiah Brown, but I wouldn't be shocked to see Brown out there averaging 18-20 points on 18-20 shots a game as a mid-major guy in a couple years.
Taylor looks pretty good when he's able to catch and shoot in rhythm and he hit a couple tough shots tonight. But there's so many forced, bad shots in there that are tough to overcome, especially since he doesn't get to the foul line much.
One interesting thing that stands out to me about him: He attempted 300 2-point shots last season, and 158 3-pointers. So he basically attempted two 2s for every 3. This season he's attempted 48 2-pointers and 90 3-pointers, so it's almost the exact same ratio in reverse. I know he basically had the ball in his hands every possession last year but I wonder what has led to such a major change.
Good points. I am not sure what people expected out of Taylor. He is what he is. A shooter. If he gets the ball in rhythm in the right spot, he is a very good shooter. If he presses and forces shots he is a poor shooter.
Gaines and/or Turner becoming more of a threat will do wonders for Taylor. Teams put their best defender in Vic and they double Pardon. They don’t leave Taylor alone at the 3 under any circumstances. So one of Gaines or Turner will be open. If I am Vic, I am demanding Taylor stop forcing the shots and encourage Gaines to take the open 3 and Turner the mid range shot. Gaines percentage will go down slightly but it will ultimately open up the floor for Taylor. He will get more points with fewer shots. I don’t see teams letting Gaines take wide open threes even if he isn’t a good shooter. Make a couple and you force their hand. If Gaines can’t make any threes you may have a few times where you need to go Offense (Koop) Defense (Gaines) late in the game.
Considering Gaines has really improved, why start him over Taylor. Or do a heat check early each game and when Taylor is off, give him a Kopp amount of bench time. Kopp brings more D and height and plays for the future.
Then play Nance, Taylor, Kopp at least 15 minutes. Get Benson in enough to keep Pardon rested. And maybe throw a heat check for Falzon against the other teams second unit.
I agree with others that 3 minutes of Kopp and Nance is a waste of their season. If we lose, let’s get them experience. If we win, maybe they have a hand in it.
Well said! Ash shot .324 last year from three point land. Taylor is under .3 for the year! Still, we are playing tough. I wouldn’t change much.
Focusing on Taylor's shooting alone ignores part of the weaknesses in his game.
His defense blows, and he's good for at least one dumb foul a game.
There was a sequence last night where he took a horrible shot, lost a defensive rebound that was his, then committed an absolutely DUMB foul after he lost the ball - all in a span of 30 seconds.
I wish I could say his streak shooting overshadows these moments.
His defense blows, and he's good for at least one dumb foul a game.
There was a sequence last night where he took a horrible shot, lost a defensive rebound that was his, then committed an absolutely DUMB foul after he lost the ball - all in a span of 30 seconds.
I wish I could say his streak shooting overshadows these moments.
I'm taking the same trip in the time machine, McFly.
Replacing Pardon with Benson full time scares the hell out of me. I hope other options emerge.
I am not sure starting Taylor versus Gaines is the issue. They are both going to be in there at the end of the game. Personally I would keep Taylor in and try to control the volume of forced shots. You can tell he has a sweet stroke. They will start going in when he is in position to shot instead of jacking them up off balance.
One of the issues to me is trust. CCC just has to demonstrate it more with Kopp and Nance. He has a really quick hook with them and it shows when they are afraid to make a mistake.
This may sound silly, but I still think we are better than last year. It will be very hard to overcome a loss like this and a likely 0-3 B1G start, but still think we are going to spring some upsets. Law and Pardon are too good to keep losing these close ones. I think we will turn it around, but CCC needs to stop playing his rotation in the second half of games like he is Ray Meyer in 1979.
Lastly, I dont get the Kopp thing either. He was pretty tough and competant to the basket. Strong rebounding also ... then *poof*.
Last night was the first night I thought Nance didn't look apprehensive. Om not saying he deserved a ton of minutes, but he could've played more than he did.
Last night was the first night I thought Nance didn't look apprehensive. Om not saying he deserved a ton of minutes, but he could've played more than he did.
Well, I can't believe I'm saying this but all of your comments under this thread are "Spot on". I have a few observations and I want your perspective on it, and a question or two.
1. It seems as if our defense was solid, denying the 3 pt shots and was especially good down the stretch of the second half. Others have commented that our players were gassed, and although the minutes played may suggest that, I didn't observe that until maybe the last minute of OT. Over the last 2 minutes of the second half, I don't believe Oklahoma scored and I remember a few blocks and steals by us. We kept the intensity from what I seen, so I tend to agree with Collins that the team wasn't gassed. What do you think?
2. I'm a bit superstitious and after going to 12 years of NU Basketball games, I remember what Shon Morris told me, for whatever reason, in this building, it's the "First team to 65 rule". When Oklahoma hit 65 first, by history, we could chalk up the loss. The only exception that I remember was last year but that wasn't in our building. That 65 rule isn't prejudice either, if we get to 65 first then we win as well. Then again, maybe the old Indian burial ground story just comes back to haunt us.
3. Point guards. It seems to me that point guards are less valuable in todays college basketball. Sure, Collins wanted Lathom but it seems to me that college offenses are getting away from the point guard 'proper'???
4. Not at all going to hate on Ryan Taylor, I felt he played tremendous on both ends, other than some missed shots. But he is a shooter and he is finally taking more shots (Good sign) and will eventually really kick some butt since it's pretty obvious that he is a scorer. I remember myself and others pounding on Trai Demps in some early games where he would just keep shooting and missing, but eventually he found his groove and he ended up pretty damn good, although not at the same potential level a Taylor. I'm not the slightest concern that Taylor can't shoot....he can. What was more impressive was his defense isn't such a handicap as it was the first few games of the season.
5. Outrebounded. Well, we did deny the 3 and it may have caused us to be spread out but even though Okie had 10 more offensive rebounds, we reacted and blocked 10 shots to kinda equalize that department.
6. Law bringing the ball up as opposed to Turner??? I felt that Turner finally was coming into his own the last few games and was comfortable and settled in with his place in our lineup, i.e., a sorta morph point guard but required to shoot. I'm sure there was a reason as Collins scouted Oklahoma, why he changed the offense to have Turner more of a wing guy with Law bringing the ball up. But imo Turner didn't know where to fit in at last night. He was very hesitant to shoot. Pardon kicked the ball out to him twice where Turner simply passed up the shot. Shots he didn't pass up the 2 games prior games. Passing up a wide open shot in the corner which Collins appeared to rip him on for doing so. Just looked hesitant and it also appeared that the Okie player was talking to him the whole game and got him a bit off his game, even missed a crucial free throw by a mile. Dunno, but I was really liking how Turner was bringing the ball up and settled in the past 2 games. Dude can shoot great when not hesitant. What was the reason to change this up and have Law bringing the ball up? Only thing I can think of is how Oklahoma was anticipated to play Pardon?? Dunno. But I hope Turner brings the ball up from here.
7. Last second shots at the end of the game. Not sure why Collins doesn't like calling those timeouts in those situations. Seemed like we all weren't on the same page but Taylor did get an open look, not wide open like some said, but it was open. Other than falling in love with Demps on some last second shots, Collins appears to isolate one player and burn the last 20 seconds stalling until the last 3 seconds. He did this unsuccessfully with Crawford, Mac, and it appears he is doing this again. I'm assuming Oklahoma had 3 guys on Pardon but we already have seen that Pardon is a gamer with less than 3 seconds to go. Why not go for 2 and let Pardon decide? I like our odds on that one. Dude is a gamer.
8. Kopp. Wow. What a game. But only 15 minutes? 3 blocks, 5 rebounds??? I felt we could have played him a bit more.
At any rate, things are looking up and I'm not sure why anyone is talking NIT??? We have some losses but the level of play with these guys is a level that I think is greater than all other NU teams I've seen. And while it's not good enough to say that we lost to ranked teams by the last bucket, I think we are just going the long way around the block and will finally be the team that wins. And if these guys find a way, then LOOK OUT. Even if we lose 5 more games like this against top ranked teams, I doubt ANY big ten team will want to play us in the Big ten tournament which is going to be WIDE OPEN.
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Good points but the best point was why change everything up by having Law taking over what Turner was finally so comfortable doing?
Turner needs to relearn all over again about where he fits in now with this surprising switch. Hopefully, he finds his identity with the new surprising change to the offense. And I agree, he was incredibly tentative last night and was afraid to shoot or just completely unsure where he fits again.
I think we're better than last year. Our starting 5 certainly looks better, even with some of the weaknesses described in this thread. But we don't have a lead guard and Collins doesn't trust his bench at all, so unless he stops relying exclusively on Law/Pardon/Taylor/Turner/Gaines every time a game is close, any in-season improvement is going to be offset by fatigue.
Turner needs to have more than 2 shots per game. He had the looks, just gotta regain his confidence in is his shots and free throws. Should be fine.
Here was the game last last night in my opinion. Oklahoma had 8 players with 18 or more minutes and that doesn’t include their starting center McNeese, who I think only played about 8 minutes for some unknown reason. We had 6 players who played 15 minutes or more, with Kopp getting the 15. Our guys were gassed out the last few minutes and understandably so. Until we get depth, we are going to be on the short end of games like that.
We have to get Kopp on the floor for 20+ minutes and hopefully Nance for 15 + minutes. That probably means they both have to be on the floor at the same time for some minutes. The only time they were ever on the floor at the same time to my memory was the Chicago State game. I also thought Benson played reasonably well while he was out there last night and then if I’m not mistaken was glued to the bench the second half. Give Pardon more breathers and get Benson out there.
Lastly, I think our expectations are way to high on Taylor. There is a reason he played at Ohio U, and Evansville and not a place like Butler, etc. He is not very well rounded player. I would just think about him as the shooter is and then only for about 20 minutes. That means build up Greer’s time and gradually use Falzon more.
I guess in summary I’m saying get more different people on the floor or these guys are going to be running in concrete by the end of January.
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