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How did our program fall apart?

DocCat2

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Aug 25, 2005
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I thought our NCAA appearance would propel us into a long run of success. We had talent, a dynamic and exciting new coach, our first NCAA appearance. Collins was able to land 4 star commits and guys like Pete Nance.... We built a new and improved venue... I thought we'd be good for a long period.

Here we are picked to finish 13th or 14th by most pundits. Many of our top guys have left the program. CC appears to be a lame duck. Our recruits haven't gotten any offers from any other schools. How did all this happen?

And assuming we dump CC, finish winless and totally hit rock bottom, how do we rebuild it all?
 
I would say your first sentence is not a good initial assumption on your part. Basketball life at NU is not nearly that easy.
 
Why is basketball life at NU so much harder than anywhere else?

We made noise in our first NCAA tournament. We had an exciting young coach with ties to Duke and the Bulls. We were landing 4 star recruits. We were building new facilities. Everything seemed to be looking up. I was expecting a run of success. What are the specifics of the collapse?

I know players can now freely transfer wherever they like, so obviously that hurt us.
Some of the highly touted recruits ended up not being as good as hoped.
The Conference competition remains super tough...

But what ultimately led to such utter and complete collapse???
 
Can we wait to discuss this until after the season? 15-16 last year, in light of NU's basketball history, is not "falling apart" and Loyola seems to have done very well with so-called "lightly recruited" players. No doubt it's very disappointing not to have followed up on our trip to the dance but then I haven't noticed many five star players (or even four stars) lining up to come to Evanston. Frankly I'm more worried about football in that vein after the non-competitive pasting by a mediocre Wisconsin team on homecoming
 
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Why is basketball life at NU so much harder than anywhere else?

We made noise in our first NCAA tournament. We had an exciting young coach with ties to Duke and the Bulls. We were landing 4 star recruits. We were building new facilities. Everything seemed to be looking up. I was expecting a run of success. What are the specifics of the collapse?

I know players can now freely transfer wherever they like, so obviously that hurt us.
Some of the highly touted recruits ended up not being as good as hoped.
The Conference competition remains super tough...

But what ultimately led to such utter and complete collapse???
Admission policy.
 
When the new facility was being built, where did they play, practice and get time workout on their own. Then there was the covid year, most recruiting was done using zoom as you could not travel.

Plus admissions, it not like any of the top 20 players have the grades to get I to NU.

Maybe this year's team can flirt with 500.

New recruits, to me, you want kids that know how to compete and win rather than star.
 
In high school yearbooks, a common quote is “Shoot for the moon. Even if you fail, you’re still among the stars.”

This is not accurate in high school basketball recruiting. In that case, it’s ‘shoot for the moon. However, if you fail, you might wind up with William & Mary transfers playing key roles.”

I don’t remember specific examples, except for the PBJ and Max Christie dalliances. Also Saddiq Bey.
 
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Why is basketball life at NU so much harder than anywhere else?

We made noise in our first NCAA tournament. We had an exciting young coach with ties to Duke and the Bulls. We were landing 4 star recruits. We were building new facilities. Everything seemed to be looking up. I was expecting a run of success. What are the specifics of the collapse?

I know players can now freely transfer wherever they like, so obviously that hurt us.
Some of the highly touted recruits ended up not being as good as hoped.
The Conference competition remains super tough...

But what ultimately led to such utter and complete collapse???
Chris Collins brought in Vic Law, Bryant McIntosh, Gavin Skelly and Scottie Lindsey in his very first recruiting class. Alex Olah, Tre Demps, JerShon Cobb, Nate Taphorn and Sanjay Lumpkin were Carmody's players. With all that talent, we only went 6-12 in the Big Ten, 15-17 overall.

The next season Cobb was gone and Vic Law was injured, but freshman Dererk Pardon and grad transfer Joey Van Zegeren added muscle. Collins became enamored with Aaron Falzon and we finished 8-10 in the league. 20-12 overall. Snubbed by the NIT.

The next year Vic Law returned and the guy Collins had allotted Law's minutes (Aaron Falzon) got injured. Olah and Demps had graduated. The freshmen (Brown and Benson) were good enough to add some depth to what was essentially a 6 man rotation with 2 additional substitutes and a 3 pt specialist (Taphorn). The rotation was very experienced, with all 4 guys from Collins first recruiting class playing major roles. We made the NCAA tourney with a 10-8 record in the Big Ten, 24-12 overall.

And then, shockingly, with the departure of only Lumpkin and Taphorn, everything completely fell apart. We went 15-17 overall, 6-12 in the league.

However, the NCAA tournament appearance was a recruiting bonanza, as Collins landed Miller Kopp, Pete Nance, Ryan Young and Ryan Greer in the same class. It was his 2nd best group.

But like every recruiting class Chris Collins has brought in since the initial group, we've seen players get frustrated, leave the program, fail to develop and generally struggle to meet expectations.

In fact, disappointment has followed every recruiting class except the first one.
 
And, as Collins noted in his address at the Big Ten meetings recently, NU has lost an inordinate percentage of close games in recent years. Draw your own conclusions.
 
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Over 2000 kids in the portal, it's the kids and parents.

Players have left Duke and Carolina as well.

Nance had already graduated and wanted to go pro. Pros said you went good enough so he went to Carolina cause they had a spot with Manek leaving. He will be a stretch 4 in a more athletic league. if he was good enough, he would be a two way player in the NBA and nothing would be said.

Young will luck out as Duke has some injuries, but will just be a piece and ride the coattails of the freshman.

Rutger made the tournament and had most of the team coming back, Johnson still decide to transfer to UCLA.

Emini Bates is at his 3 college in 2 years. Plus attended multiple high schools. That's today's players.

My favorite is their is a player in the A10. 4 different high schools and is on his 3rd colege team in 3 years.

It's a bigger issue than NU and Collins.

Even though coaches cannot contact a player from another school. Players can reach out on behalf of coaches with social media. That's the under current of recruiting.

Simmons struggled his first year in the conference. Went through the summer workouts and then decided to tranfer, he went to Yale. Conference is a little easier and closer to home. Yale had originally recruited him. Is that Collins fault?

I understand the frustration, but 3 new assistants and they probably will be looking for a different type of player that will hopefully turn things around with new players and hold the current players accountable and ask different thing on defense. Be tougher
 
Over 2000 kids in the portal, it's the kids and parents.

Players have left Duke and Carolina as well.

Nance had already graduated and wanted to go pro. Pros said you went good enough so he went to Carolina cause they had a spot with Manek leaving. He will be a stretch 4 in a more athletic league. if he was good enough, he would be a two way player in the NBA and nothing would be said.

Young will luck out as Duke has some injuries, but will just be a piece and ride the coattails of the freshman.
I disagree about both Young and Nance.

Nance decided that NU wasn’t the program to get him to the pros.

Young decided that the program wasn’t good enough to get to the tournament.

These kids both made good decisions for themselves. But they are not the guys who leave for spurious reasons. They invested their everything in the program, and the program didn’t give back to them.

In Nance’s case, he was misused as a 5 and, in a related case, Young was underutilized in favor of inferior, smaller players. Nance will get drafted and Young might get to suit up at Final Four practice. (Six years ago, I’m sure CCC envisioned being where Young is, except in Scheyer’s seat.)

The reason the program fell is because CCC couldn’t get his players to get along after the tourney year, and couldn’t identify talent that works in the B1G.

Outside of Nance, his best recruits were in each of his first two seasons, when hope and history was for sale. Without the chance to make history, the emperor had no clothes.
 
I disagree about both Young and Nance.

Nance decided that NU wasn’t the program to get him to the pros.

Young decided that the program wasn’t good enough to get to the tournament.

These kids both made good decisions for themselves. But they are not the guys who leave for spurious reasons. They invested their everything in the program, and the program didn’t give back to them.

In Nance’s case, he was misused as a 5 and, in a related case, Young was underutilized in favor of inferior, smaller players. Nance will get drafted and Young might get to suit up at Final Four practice. (Six years ago, I’m sure CCC envisioned being where Young is, except in Scheyer’s seat.)

The reason the program fell is because CCC couldn’t get his players to get along after the tourney year, and couldn’t identify talent that works in the B1G.

Outside of Nance, his best recruits were in each of his first two seasons, when hope and history was for sale. Without the chance to make history, the emperor had no clothes.
I find it laughable that you could criticize NU grads for finishing their playing time at 2 of the most blue-blood programs in college basketball. Comparing NU to either Duke or UNC is nuts. Both now have a shot at a National Championship. Who wouldn't make that move?
 
The reason the program fell is because CCC couldn’t get his players to get along after the tourney year, and couldn’t identify talent that works in the B1G.

Outside of Nance, his best recruits were in each of his first two seasons, when hope and history was for sale. Without the chance to make history, the emperor had no clothes.
Right, the rumor mill surrounding the Allstate team was that there was some falling out/read the press clippings/weren't prepared for the season, which led to disaster (or perhaps Lumpkin/Taphorn were more important than their stats would indicate).

As far as the recruiting went, the issue was more that after CC's first class, the next 3 classes which were all signed prior to the tourney run produced one starter-quality player (Pardon) out of 7. The tourney boost brought Kopp/Nance/Young, and the players since then have been the ones who saw the disappointment of 2018 followed by the lack of a chance to make history. Much like we're seeing with football, having entire recruiting classes with no impact players is a recipe for disaster in the years to follow.
 
I find it laughable that you could criticize NU grads for finishing their playing time at 2 of the most blue-blood programs in college basketball. Comparing NU to either Duke or UNC is nuts. Both now have a shot at a National Championship. Who wouldn't make that move?
I’m not criticizing Young or Nance or anyone that leaves NU’s program (or anyone who transfers in general).

Young and Nance made objectively good decisions. NU’s opportunity isn’t as good as their current opportunities.
 
I agree with you. And no matter who the NU coach is, NU will never be as good an opportunity as Duke or UNC.

or IU for Miller Kopp. Though any autopsy of the Collins tenure has to include their recruiting class. Kopp and Nance never became the stars we were hoping for.
 
Why is basketball life at NU so much harder than anywhere else?

We made noise in our first NCAA tournament. We had an exciting young coach with ties to Duke and the Bulls. We were landing 4 star recruits. We were building new facilities. Everything seemed to be looking up. I was expecting a run of success. What are the specifics of the collapse?

I know players can now freely transfer wherever they like, so obviously that hurt us.
Some of the highly touted recruits ended up not being as good as hoped.
The Conference competition remains super tough...

But what ultimately led to such utter and complete collapse???

I think it was the move to the All-State arena. We lost home court advantage, and the expected follow up season did not happen. The team lost its cohesiveness for whatever reason and we were a bust despite returning the core of that NCAA team. The program took a hit as we couldn't demonstrate continued momentum and were seen (and targeted by opposing recruiters) as a flash in the pan.
 
Did Nance and Ryan put the work in to get better.?

In the summer you have your team workouts. Then you are allotted 4 hours to work with a coach. Gym is open 24 hours. Where they in there getting better.

The nba caliber players live in the gym and improve aspects of their game each year.

So going to Duke or Carolina is not a magic pill. Gives you better opportunities, but you have to put the work in yourself.
 
Over 2000 kids in the portal, it's the kids and parents.

Players have left Duke and Carolina as well.

Nance had already graduated and wanted to go pro. Pros said you went good enough so he went to Carolina cause they had a spot with Manek leaving. He will be a stretch 4 in a more athletic league. if he was good enough, he would be a two way player in the NBA and nothing would be said.

Young will luck out as Duke has some injuries, but will just be a piece and ride the coattails of the freshman.

Rutger made the tournament and had most of the team coming back, Johnson still decide to transfer to UCLA.

Emini Bates is at his 3 college in 2 years. Plus attended multiple high schools. That's today's players.

My favorite is their is a player in the A10. 4 different high schools and is on his 3rd colege team in 3 years.

It's a bigger issue than NU and Collins.

Even though coaches cannot contact a player from another school. Players can reach out on behalf of coaches with social media. That's the under current of recruiting.

Simmons struggled his first year in the conference. Went through the summer workouts and then decided to tranfer, he went to Yale. Conference is a little easier and closer to home. Yale had originally recruited him. Is that Collins fault?

I understand the frustration, but 3 new assistants and they probably will be looking for a different type of player that will hopefully turn things around with new players and hold the current players accountable and ask different thing on defense. Be tougher

Players don't leave basketball programs unless they are unhappy with their situation, relative to their expectations.

Was Anthony Gaines a pro prospect? No. He decided to go to grad school at Siena, closer to home. On paper, thats not a smart decision.

Barret Benson was intelligent enough to graduate NU in 3 years. Instead of sticking around, he left to go to grad school at SIU, where he could get more playing time. On paper thats a bad move.

Ryan Young finished his degree and sought better opportunities. He found one at Duke. Having been shortchanged by his coach, he felt no desire to stick around. Smart move.

Pete Nance tested the NBA waters and learned that playing out of position is not good for one's draft prospects. He went to a far better situation at North Carolina, where he could make up for lost time (developmentally).

Rapolas Ivanauskas was the prototype for Pete Nance. Stretch 4-5. A lanky 6'10", pretty good shooter. Collins redshirted him, then he got hurt, got buried on the bench. His father decided that Collins had no idea what he was doing. Son left NU to become Patriot League player of the year the following season. He's in his 3rd year of European play.

Casey Simmons arrived in Evanston with a lot of fanfare. After a single year in which his playing time diminished, he left to go to Yale. Who knows what promises were made when he was recruited? Who knows what the coaches told him during the summer to convince him to pursue that Yale diploma...

Miller Kopp was supposed to be a team leader. He played heavy minutes for 3 years and then abruptly transferred to a school with less academic prestige. An odd move... and he criticized Collins on his way out the door.

The story on Doug Collins was that he took credit for wins and blamed the players for losses.
And his teams turned on him.

The story on Chris Collins a couple years ago was that "the word is out that he's in over his head."

If both Matt Nicholson and Luke Hunger stay out of the transfer portal after this season, I'll be surprised.
 
My Illini opinion is you never seemed to find the replacement for McIntosh. Same problem Groce had at Illinois, couldn't find his PG and it's tough to win without one.

Plus unless you're a Duke or Kentucky, all it takes is a few bad breaks for things to slip. And even moreso when you're NW.
 
1) The portal and transfers can't be used as an excuse for CC. You lose players, you get players. The portal is not there just to transfer out of NU. We have only had two decent recruits from the portal.

2) Young and Nance play at NU this year if we were a tournament team last year. Regardless of how good and bluer than blue UNC and Duke are

3) Kopp is an utter failure and waste at NU. Blame him I guess if you are a CC apologist. I'm skeptical of that simplified version of events. Moody last season, underwhelming in Bloomington. Both true. But...

Sophomore (hounded by the best defender of the other team and by help defense)
13.1 ppg/ 39.6% 3 pt%/ 89.6% FT%

I'll take that player any day of the week. Most programs also will. We know said player fell apart after that. Said player was leaps and bounds, as a SO, above what we are used to. Way above.

4) Endless pressers of "we ran good plays at the end, we got good looks. They made their shots we did not". So interpret it as you want, either our players are to blame or just bad luck. But it's not the coach. Says the coach.

Bleh
 
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As we'll probably see this year in the Carolinas and we saw last year in Indiana, there was far too much reliance on and devotion to players that are average in good programs. At this point, who cares whether their mediocrity was due to coaching or bad scouting. It all points back to CC.

But I think Gordie is right. To think one tourney would automatically propel the program to long term success is naive NU thinking similar to the idea that the academics are some incredible basketball differentiator.

There were a few immediate stumbles while trying to take advantage of the tourney - BMacs injuries, the inability of the 17-18 team and playing off campus. And this program doesn't have some kind of historical strength to overcome those issues. They needed every break it could get.

Then Collins placed his bets on Nance, Kopp, Falzon and Beran. Hindsight is 20-20 on that one.

So here we are. We haven't even played the first game of the fifth season since the tourney, and you know we REEK of the "same ol' Northwestern" stink. With a history like this and a pitiful fan base, it's FAR easier to lose that tourney momentum than it was to get there.

Hopefully, the next guy can do it pretty quickly. Then he'll have more stability to build to the next level. He will also need a few more tricks in his coaching bag than KO, Carmody or CC. I'm not sure that's so easy.
 
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Next would need at least 2 years to get his guys in.

Transfer portal is tough here as we run on the quarter system and other schools are semesters. Credit just don't move over.
 
How did Northwestern Men’s basketball, historically the worst program in the entire history of collegiate Men’s basketball, fall apart?
 
The tourney boost brought Kopp/Nance/Young, and the players since then have been the ones who saw the disappointment of 2018 followed by the lack of a chance to make history. Much like we're seeing with football, having entire recruiting classes with no impact players is a recipe for disaster in the years to follow.

Recruiting went pretty well for a few years after the tournament. Nance, Kopp, Beran, Berry, Roper, Simmons all had at least one four-star rating by the various websites. That should have been more than enough to construct another tournament team. But thus far, only Nance has really panned out. And now that we've gone back to being awful, and Collins is a dead man walking, recruiting has taken a sharp dive.
 
As we'll probably see this year in the Carolinas and we saw last year in Indiana, there was far too much reliance on and devotion to players that are average in good programs. At this point, who cares whether their mediocrity was due to coaching or bad scouting. It all points back to CC.

But I think Gordie is right. To think one tourney would automatically propel the program to long term success is naive NU thinking similar to the idea that the academics are some incredible basketball differentiator.

There were a few immediate stumbles while trying to take advantage of the tourney - BMacs injuries, the inability of the 17-18 team and playing off campus. And this program doesn't have some kind of historical strength to overcome those issues. They needed every break it could get.

Then Collins placed his bets on Nance, Kopp, Falzon and Beran. Hindsight is 20-20 on that one.

So here we are. We haven't even played the first game of the fifth season since the tourney, and you know we REEK of the "same ol' Northwestern" stink. With a history like this and a pitiful fan base, it's FAR easier to lose that tourney momentum than it was to get there.

Hopefully, the next guy can do it pretty quickly. Then he'll have more stability to build to the next level. He will also need a few more tricks in his coaching bag than KO, Carmody or CC. I'm not sure that's so easy.
Might also need to make friends in Admissions.
 
When the new facility was being built, where did they play, practice and get time workout on their own. Then there was the covid year, most recruiting was done using zoom as you could not travel.

Plus admissions, it not like any of the top 20 players have the grades to get I to NU.

Maybe this year's team can flirt with 500.

New recruits, to me, you want kids that know how to compete and win rather than star.
The Illini have the highest winning percentage (.639) and most seasons over .500 (100) in B1G history yet have never had a top 20 recruit.
 
The Illini have the highest winning percentage (.639) and most seasons over .500 (100) in B1G history yet have never had a top 20 recruit.
I’ll take Chris Collins and Bill Carmody over Brad Underwood, Bruce Weber, Lee Henson, etc. from a technical basketball standpoint. That will seem odd to most, but to me, it makes the point about coaches vs. players and what a disadvantage NU is facing. I’ve said it many times - Jim Calhoun passed up the NU job because he said and knew he could not win here.
 
As we'll probably see this year in the Carolinas and we saw last year in Indiana, there was far too much reliance on and devotion to players that are average in good programs. At this point, who cares whether their mediocrity was due to coaching or bad scouting. It all points back to CC.

But I think Gordie is right. To think one tourney would automatically propel the program to long term success is naive NU thinking similar to the idea that the academics are some incredible basketball differentiator.

There were a few immediate stumbles while trying to take advantage of the tourney - BMacs injuries, the inability of the 17-18 team and playing off campus. And this program doesn't have some kind of historical strength to overcome those issues. They needed every break it could get.

Then Collins placed his bets on Nance, Kopp, Falzon and Beran. Hindsight is 20-20 on that one.

So here we are. We haven't even played the first game of the fifth season since the tourney, and you know we REEK of the "same ol' Northwestern" stink. With a history like this and a pitiful fan base, it's FAR easier to lose that tourney momentum than it was to get there.

Hopefully, the next guy can do it pretty quickly. Then he'll have more stability to build to the next level. He will also need a few more tricks in his coaching bag than KO, Carmody or CC. I'm not sure that's so easy.
First, one thing I have a problem with is the same people arguing for CCC because he reached the tourney then argue getting back, or even close, is unrealistic. Well, if CCC was that good to get us there, what happened to his magic sauce. Unless you want to agree that it was less CCC and more in the stars - right players, right opponents, right time, Michigan. But then you lose the single largest argument to retain CCC.

Next, tourney aside, like BC, CCC found some success, peaked and has tumbled downhill since. If you agree w BC firing then hard to argue against CCC firing without leaning heavy on the dance - see above.

It’s beyond time. Like the coaches before him, CCC brought sue god but now he damages his legacy with every passing game. I liked the hire, I liked the coach until I didn’t, until his obstinate, desperate lingering has led me to lose respect for him.

Lots of similarities between him and PF. Both could have had different coaching trajectories if they were smart enough to hire better assistant coaches.
 
I really don't care who the coach is. I like the floppy offense, high screen rolls, and 5 out. Successful teams run those
 
I thought our NCAA appearance would propel us into a long run of success. We had talent, a dynamic and exciting new coach, our first NCAA appearance. Collins was able to land 4 star commits and guys like Pete Nance.... We built a new and improved venue... I thought we'd be good for a long period.

Here we are picked to finish 13th or 14th by most pundits. Many of our top guys have left the program. CC appears to be a lame duck. Our recruits haven't gotten any offers from any other schools. How did all this happen?

And assuming we dump CC, finish winless and totally hit rock bottom, how do we rebuild it all?
Wait, are you talking about football or basketball? /s
 
Yes, he did. But that was back when McGraw had a dirt track and there were no practice facilities. Apart from academic requirements NU is not at a disadvantage to anyone today.
Do you really think it was anything but academics?
 
1) The portal and transfers can't be used as an excuse for CC. You lose players, you get players. The portal is not there just to transfer out of NU. We have only had two decent recruits from the portal.

2) Young and Nance play at NU this year if we were a tournament team last year. Regardless of how good and bluer than blue UNC and Duke are

3) Kopp is an utter failure and waste at NU. Blame him I guess if you are a CC apologist. I'm skeptical of that simplified version of events. Moody last season, underwhelming in Bloomington. Both true. But...

Sophomore (hounded by the best defender of the other team and by help defense)
13.1 ppg/ 39.6% 3 pt%/ 89.6% FT%

I'll take that player any day of the week. Most programs also will. We know said player fell apart after that. Said player was leaps and bounds, as a SO, above what we are used to. Way above.

4) Endless pressers of "we ran good plays at the end, we got good looks. They made their shots we did not". So interpret it as you want, either our players are to blame or just bad luck. But it's not the coach. Says the coach.

Bleh
Do you really know what went down with Kopp? What if NU admissions told Collins that he was the one he needed to offer first (after Saddiq Bey)? Kopp was obviously a miss, but how can you even be sure it was all Collins’ fault, especially knowing a blue blood program took a chance on him AFTER he played with Collins for 3 years? Maybe Collins got more out of him than others would have?

You use the word skeptical a lot. Are you (and PWB) skeptical or cynical when it comes to Collins? It’s pretty obvious to most which one.
 
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