Just something to ponder

[ColumbusCatFan1]

Uh, I was referring to Mystic, not to me.

I have that poster (Mystic) on ignore and you responded to my innocuous response to NJ... perhaps, I misinterpreted your post/lost something in translation. My apologies for the misunderstanding if it offended you. It seems like I may not have understood what you meant to say.

Was simply enjoying NJ's moderate/thoughtful take.

 

[mikewebb68]

I have that poster (Mystic) on ignore and you responded to my innocuous response to NJ... perhaps, I misinterpreted your post/lost something in translation. My apologies for the misunderstanding if it offended you. It seems like I may not have understood what you meant to say.

Was simply enjoying NJ's moderate/thoughtful take.

Yup, you missed it totally since you have Mystic on ignore. No biggie.

 

[NJCat]

didn't turner play in the ACC?

You're right. Hard for me to keep the conference changes straight!!

 

[NJCat]

I got locked down for the third time a few weeks ago for saying less controversial stuff than this! Lol

Yep, doesn't seem right. Mystic should be gone for repetitive posting of the same tired thesis. At least your schtick makes me smile. Dang!!!

 

[willycat]

Cheer up mike and Willy: Jerry Palm has us in his “Next 150 out” category.

Ignore!

 

[Sec.112]

You know what I really admire in these beat-a-dead-horse conversations? It really wins me over when somebody uses one of the more stupid and inaccurate statements of a poster or two and tries to support their position by passing it off as conventional wisdom.

That's a real high-character move that always helps build support for your position. Keep up the good work.

I'm so glad to see you agree with my statement, Mystic. I assume that means we can be done with the whining about ...

Oh forget it. It's too easy.

 

[Katatonic]

Your sure starting to sound like another board Carmody hugger. BMac, Skelly, Lindsey and Law class a disappointment, really? Never heard that recruits were worried that Carmody would not be coaching NU, just that Law's father had said that if BC was coaching the Wildcats his son would not be coming to Evanston. Also seem to remember that Collins was a big reason BMac switched from Indiana St.

There you go again - misconstruing what I (much less others) had stated.

I stated that ONE post season from that class was a disappointment and not that the class was a disappointment (a pretty big distinction btwn the 2).

If you disagree, then you didn't have as high expectations of that class as I did - and thus, they weren't as good of a class as you have repeatedly made them out to be.

And I'm sure all those guys (esp. BMac), not to mention, CC, are thinking along those lines - otherwise, why be disappointed when they met expectations?

Along the same lines - the Juice, Shurna, Crawford team not making it to the NCAAs was a disappointment.

But like I had stated, there are factors like strength of conference/schedule, injuries, etc. which factor into the equation and can prevent a team from reaching its potential.

But while injuries (like in so many previous seasons) played its role, some of that was mitigated by a down B1G - where a post-season should have been a reality, even if that meant something other than the NCAAs (not that many here care about the NIT).

As for never [having] heard that recruits were worried that Carmody would not be coaching NU - you're just being inane argumentative.

It's a given that a coach is placed in a tougher position when it comes to recruiting when he's basically working on a season-to-season basis.

Again, there's a reason why AD's give extensions 2-3 years before a coach's contract is up.

As for Law's father, he also stated that they had interest in NU for several years (so before CC was in the picture). Law was interested in staying close to home - so had interest in schools like NU and UI.

Yes, CC, ultimately, was the reason why Law decided to come to NU, but it's not like he wasn't considering the 'Cats prior. Like I had stated, the reason why (at the time) Law wouldn't have come to NU was b/c they didn't like BC's take it or leave it offer (seems like BC may not have had Law high on his priority list and if so, is deserving of flack for that).

Also, as I had previously stated, that's not to say that BC wouldn't have landed other highly regarded recruits (irrespective of how Sina's college career ended up).

The 'Cats were hot and heavy on Reid Travis (ranked 27th by ESPN for the 2014 class) who ended up at Stanford.

Saying that recruiting under BC wouldn't have improved is like saying that recruiting under CC wouldn't have gotten any better than the 2014 class.

Again, not saying at all that CC isn't the better recruiter (by a good measure) based on a list of factors which I had previously mentioned.

But at the same time, CC needs to be the better recruiter if his teams are going to play straight-up.

And no, I'm not a BC-hugger (as I had stated numerous times now, prefer CC to lead the program), but take issue when people such as yourself make unwarranted criticisms of BC (not that BC doesn't warrant criticism) or anything or anyone tied to BC - such as your repeated digs at players like Lumpkin, Cobb, Tap, Hearn and even Swop.

If anything, you're a BC-troll.

So let me get this straight. The group that never achieved the goal leaves you with a positive and hopeful vibe (my generous term). Yet, you're left with a negative feeling about the group who actually achieved the goal and brought much more to the program.

That's an interesting fan barometer.

You think BMac and others aren't disappointed?

What's more interesting is that you had lower expectations of what that group could accomplish than did many NU fans, much less the players in question themselves.

Of course, there will always be the great memories of the run to the NCAAs and few things in NU sports history can ever match that.

But at the same time, there's also the what-ifs of unrealized potential.

Much like the ATL Braves teams of the 1990s - only winning one WS in 1995.

 

[NUera]

I love how people go through the list of all the great recruits BC got over the years, and say - boy, his various assistants over the years sure found some players for him!

Dude, all you ever talk about is how unhappy you are. We made the friggin' NCAA tournament last year! What's it gonna take for you to be content with the program? Or are you going to sh** on any coach who isn't Bill Carmody until the day you die?

 

[Katatonic]

Your histrionics aren't helpful. No one has claimed Carmody ever took a team to the Tournament nor has anyone in this thread argued that Carmody should not have been fired. This is what is called a "strawman argument." What has been at issue is lying about what past coaches accomplished and fibbing about the recruiting rankings of more recent recruits.

What's worse is denigrating/underselling the talents of players who adorned purple simply b/c they were tied to the previous regime.

 

[Sec.112]

You think BMac and others aren't disappointed?

What's more interesting is that you had lower expectations of what that group could accomplish than did many NU fans, much less the players in question themselves.

I understand it was late when you were writing, but let me help you clarify your direction.

If you want to argue the class was disappointed in their SEASON, no argument there.

But you didn't communicate that at all.

Is the group disappointed in their four years AS A CLASS? NO WAY!!

And now that we're reading the minds of full classes, does the 12-13 group walk away with the same level of satisfaction for their four years as a class as the 17-18 group? You're really digging deep if you think the two groups have anything close to the same level of satisfaction.

 

[MysticCat]

Dude, all you ever talk about is how unhappy you are. We made the friggin' NCAA tournament last year! What's it gonna take for you to be content with the program? Or are you going to sh** on any coach who isn't Bill Carmody until the day you die?

Not unhappy at all. Just math.

My favorite poster returns!

Where ya been?

 

[Medill90]

It's a given that a coach is placed in a tougher position when it comes to recruiting when he's basically working on a season-to-season basis.

Again, there's a reason why AD's give extensions 2-3 years before a coach's contract is up.

As for Law's father, he also stated that they had interest in NU for several years (so before CC was in the picture). Law was interested in staying close to home - so had interest in schools like NU and UI.

Saying that recruiting under BC wouldn't have improved is like saying that recruiting under CC wouldn't have gotten any better than the 2014 class.

On the first point, Carmody put himself in that position by not getting a team to the tournament. Yes, the AD wanted to make a change, signaled he was dissatisfied and did not support the coach. But that came after an extended period of not making the tournament. I personally wanted to see Carmody given another year but do not fault Phillips.

It would be more accurate to say that Law looked at NU and removed it from his list because of the ambivalence the sensed on the part of Carmody. But then Law didn't have another top school at the point Collins came in and Collins made it a top priority.

I'll share here what I heard directly from another NU coach that administration and other (non bball) coaches were somewhat mystified at the indifference displayed at times in the recruiting process. Hardy was successful because he's a smart, driven guy who was all over it. But word came back to NU by parents who formerly played at the school that HS players and their families were not made to feel welcome. The coach specifically mentioned the Kaminsky thing. Now, that could just be guys talking but mirrors what we've seen reported in the press. The big takeaway and relates to the last point is that due to bias/outlook or whatever, NU was not closing on the best players that NU could close on.

The last point relates to whether recruiting could have improved further under BC. Eleven years offers a lot of data points and when you connect those points it doesn't produce a trend line that points toward the sky. Collins has done very well early and has enjoyed support that Carmody did not receive. I think that having Doug Collins around and his Duke coaching pedigree have been far more important than use of private jets and the new scoreboard.

Last point, i was of the opinion that Collins had done what I thought was impossible at NU because of academics: bringing in high quality bigs. This is still a watch out for me and why I think the next 1-3 years of recruiting are crucial. NU seems to coach up the bigs as well as anyone. Olah improved vastly, Pardon has gotten much better. So, one would presume a big would want to come to NU. I'm feel myself returning to the old viewpoint that mens bball recruiting is greatly handicapped versus other teams.

I fear that reality may beat down Collins. I suspect it had an increasingly large effect on Carmody as the years passed.

 

[EagerFan]

I think these continued comparisons are not effective because the two coaches have vastly different strengths and styles. Also, some folks clearly have axes to grind.

I’m hopeful the coaching staff steps up their game and the players follow suit next season. And I look forward to the future of this team.

 

[cometclear]

On the first point, Carmody put himself in that position by not getting a team to the tournament. Yes, the AD wanted to make a change, signaled he was dissatisfied and did not support the coach. But that came after an extended period of not making the tournament. I personally wanted to see Carmody given another year but do not fault Phillips.

It would be more accurate to say that Law looked at NU and removed it from his list because of the ambivalence the sensed on the part of Carmody. But then Law didn't have another top school at the point Collins came in and Collins made it a top priority.

I'll share here what I heard directly from another NU coach that administration and other (non bball) coaches were somewhat mystified at the indifference displayed at times in the recruiting process. Hardy was successful because he's a smart, driven guy who was all over it. But word came back to NU by parents who formerly played at the school that HS players and their families were not made to feel welcome. The coach specifically mentioned the Kaminsky thing. Now, that could just be guys talking but mirrors what we've seen reported in the press. The big takeaway and relates to the last point is that due to bias/outlook or whatever, NU was not closing on the best players that NU could close on.

The last point relates to whether recruiting could have improved further under BC. Eleven years offers a lot of data points and when you connect those points it doesn't produce a trend line that points toward the sky. Collins has done very well early and has enjoyed support that Carmody did not receive. I think that having Doug Collins around and his Duke coaching pedigree have been far more important than use of private jets and the new scoreboard.

Last point, i was of the opinion that Collins had done what I thought was impossible at NU because of academics: bringing in high quality bigs. This is still a watch out for me and why I think the next 1-3 years of recruiting are crucial. NU seems to coach up the bigs as well as anyone. Olah improved vastly, Pardon has gotten much better. So, one would presume a big would want to come to NU. I'm feel myself returning to the old viewpoint that mens bball recruiting is greatly handicapped versus other teams.

I fear that reality may beat down Collins. I suspect it had an increasingly large effect on Carmody as the years passed.

Excellent post. My impression is that Carmody simply wasn't comfortable with groveling with teenagers and their parents, but the bottom line is that's what it takes these days. I can't recall which player it involved, but I recall that recruit stating that Carmody basically told him on his visit, "Look, this is what we have to offer, take or leave it." In retrospect, Princeton was a much better fit for him than Northwestern.

 

[NUera]

Not unhappy at all. Just math.

My favorite poster returns!

Where ya been?

Ah, good to know there's still hope for elation

Sold my soul to Hollywood about four years ago. Still lurk when I get a chance, but not like the old days (though I did manage to make it to SLC). Can't believe it's been nearly 18 years since the Chris Pool days of rivals. We got old.

 

[Walker Fan]

Collins made it to the tourney with one lower 3 star Skelly, a mid-level 3-Star (Lindsey) coming off a broken leg, and a high 3 star (McIntosh) who had committed to Indiana St. All three players developed their games well under Collins. Law was a 4 star and has the most all around talent of the class who never would have gone to NU. Now NU has 3 star talents coming in in Nance, Kopp and Lathon and a developing 6’10” player who is a high 3 star and a 4 star transfer Turner. That is the no. 21 class in the nation before factoring in Turner.

No other Power 5 coach or Big 10 coach would have survived as long as BC. Period.

 

[mikewebb68]

Dude, all you ever talk about is how unhappy you are. We made the friggin' NCAA tournament last year! What's it gonna take for you to be content with the program? Or are you going to sh** on any coach who isn't Bill Carmody until the day you die?

For the last time, do you (and others) even internet? Mystic is NOT a fan; it is a troll account. The only thing we should be "pondering" re: Mystic's posts is how much Carmody sucks.

 

[Katatonic]

I understand it was late when you were writing, but let me help you clarify your direction.

If you want to argue the class was disappointed in their SEASON, no argument there.

But you didn't communicate that at all.

Is the group disappointed in their four years AS A CLASS? NO WAY!!

And now that we're reading the minds of full classes, does the 12-13 group walk away with the same level of satisfaction for their four years as a class as the 17-18 group? You're really digging deep if you think the two groups have anything close to the same level of satisfaction.

LOL!

If a class is disappointed in their play/the results of a season, doesn't it naturally imply that they are disappointed that they didn't get to accomplish everything that they had expected to accomplish?

Otherwise, why would BMac say this?

McIntosh put it more bluntly: “We thought it was going to be a lot easier. It’s been a really tough season. I’m disappointed in how we handled it. It hurts. There’s definitely a lot of regret.”

 

[MysticCat]

T

LOL!

If a class is disappointed in their play/the results of a season, doesn't it naturally imply that they are disappointed that they didn't get to accomplish everything that they had expected to accomplish?

Otherwise, why would BMac say this?

McIntosh put it more bluntly: “We thought it was going to be a lot easier. It’s been a really tough season. I’m disappointed in how we handled it. It hurts. There’s definitely a lot of regret.”

They didn’t pay the price over the summer, so they paid it over the winter.

 

[Katatonic]

On the first point, Carmody put himself in that position by not getting a team to the tournament. Yes, the AD wanted to make a change, signaled he was dissatisfied and did not support the coach. But that came after an extended period of not making the tournament. I personally wanted to see Carmody given another year but do not fault Phillips.

Well, then (as I had stated before) Philips should have cut the cord earlier and not have waited for an injury-riddled team as an excuse to fire BC.

Doesn't help the program to string the HC along on a year-to-year deal; much better to fire the guy Philips never really wanted and start all over w/ his guy.

It would be more accurate to say that Law looked at NU and removed it from his list because of the ambivalence the sensed on the part of Carmody. But then Law didn't have another top school at the point Collins came in and Collins made it a top priority

How is that materially any different from my saying that Law's family didn't care for BC's take it or leave it offer?

Which I had noted, BC, should get criticism for (even if there were other recruits that BC & staff placed higher than Law, gotta cover all your bases and not give that sort of message to a recruit).

And yeah. Law wasn't exactly feeling the love from the Pumpkinheads either, so when CC came in and made Law a priority and have him plenty of love, that's what sold the Law family on NU.

I'll share here what I heard directly from another NU coach that administration and other (non bball) coaches were somewhat mystified at the indifference displayed at times in the recruiting process. Hardy was successful because he's a smart, driven guy who was all over it. But word came back to NU by parents who formerly played at the school that HS players and their families were not made to feel welcome. The coach specifically mentioned the Kaminsky thing. Now, that could just be guys talking but mirrors what we've seen reported in the press. The big takeaway and relates to the last point is that due to bias/outlook or whatever, NU was not closing on the best players that NU could close on

Again, no one is disputing that BC was an indifferent recruiter and probably had a dislike for what a coach needs to do on the recruiting trail, and that CC is the far better recruiter who, like Fitz, actually seems to enjoy it (or at least as much as any coach can enjoy recruiting).

 

[MysticCat]

Well, then (as I had stated before) Philips should have cut the cord earlier and not have waited for an injury-riddled team as an excuse to fire BC.

Doesn't help the program to string the HC along on a year-to-year deal; much better to fire the guy Philips never really wanted and start all over w/ his guy.




How is that materially any different from my saying that Law's family didn't care for BC's take it or leave it offer?

Which I had noted, BC, should get criticism for (even if there were other recruits that BC & staff placed higher than Law, gotta cover all your bases and not give that sort of message to a recruit).

And yeah. Law wasn't exactly feeling the love from the Pumpkinheads either, so when CC came in and made Law a priority and have him plenty of love, that's what sold the Law family on NU.





Again, no one is disputing that BC was an indifferent recruiter and probably had a dislike for what a coach needs to do on the recruiting trail, and that CC is the far better recruiter who, like Fitz, actually seems to enjoy it (or at least as much as any coach can enjoy recruiting).

“and that CC is the far better recruiter...”

Is he though?

Time will tell. Certainly not so far though.

 

[Katatonic]

^ OK, let's make that a far more enthusiastic recruiter.

And yes, time will tell - but based on incoming class, don't think there's much of a debate.

My issue, however, is w/ those who keep arguing that recruiting hadn't been improving under BC (starting around '06-07) - and likely would have kept improving; just not to extent as under CC for various reasons I had previously listed: CC being younger, a former star player (local as well), has championship rings, has a personality more suited to recruiting, doesn't run the Princeton O, etc..

Seems like some have forgotten about Terence Parker, Jim Maley, Evan Seacat, Sterling Williams, Brandon Lee, Gary Lee, Jr., etc. which was truly the dark times in recruiting (and yes, BC shares in the blame for that).

The last point relates to whether recruiting could have improved further under BC. Eleven years offers a lot of data points and when you connect those points it doesn't produce a trend line that points toward the sky. Collins has done very well early and has enjoyed support that Carmody did not receive. I think that having Doug Collins around and his Duke coaching pedigree have been far more important than use of private jets and the new scoreboard.

You seriously don't think recruiting improved from before '06-07 (with the list of the aforementioned) - when the program started to land guys w/ offers from not only Power 5 or high mid-majors, but blue-bloods like Louisville?

Last point, i was of the opinion that Collins had done what I thought was impossible at NU because of academics: bringing in high quality bigs. This is still a watch out for me and why I think the next 1-3 years of recruiting are crucial. NU seems to coach up the bigs as well as anyone. Olah improved vastly, Pardon has gotten much better. So, one would presume a big would want to come to NU. I'm feel myself returning to the old viewpoint that mens bball recruiting is greatly handicapped versus other teams

Pardon - Pitt, Xavier
Benson - UI, IU, Iowa, DePaul

Rowley - Wisconsin, Pitt, Baylor, Marquette, DePaul
Luka - Louisville, Marquette, DePaul

Depends on what you mean by high quality bigs.

If it is based on recruiting interest - than Rowley and Luka were arguably of higher quality than Pardon and Benson.

Now, if it is based on actual play on the court...

Pardon had the least interest on the recruiting front, but from what I had read about him, liked him from the start.

Collins made it to the tourney with one lower 3 star Skelly, a mid-level 3-Star (Lindsey) coming off a broken leg, and a high 3 star (McIntosh) who had committed to Indiana St. All three players developed their games well under Collins.

So you've gone from extolling that class (based on recruiting rankings and such) to downplaying them now in order to fit your latest argument. lol

Gee, like BC never developed players.

Like a certain someone who ended up being the leading scorer in NU history or a walk-on who ended up in the NBA?

And while BMac was great, Juice was still the better PG.

Law was a 4 star and has the most all around talent of the class who never would have gone to NU.

Law wouldn't have gone to NU if BC was still the coach due to how BC handled his offer.

Who's to say if Law still wouldn't have ended up at NU if someone else other than CC replaced BC.

Also, we don't know if someone like Reid Travis (who was a higher ranked 4-star than Law) wouldn't have ended up at NU.

 

[Gladeskat]

LOL!

If a class is disappointed in their play/the results of a season, doesn't it naturally imply that they are disappointed that they didn't get to accomplish everything that they had expected to accomplish?

Otherwise, why would BMac say this?

McIntosh put it more bluntly: “We thought it was going to be a lot easier. It’s been a really tough season. I’m disappointed in how we handled it. It hurts. There’s definitely a lot of regret.”

But how does that compare on the Regret scale to never making the NCAA Tournament? Kinda light, IMO.

Maybe I missed the BTN feature about Carmody's four NIT seasons.

 

[NUera]

For the last time, do you (and others) even internet? Mystic is NOT a fan; it is a troll account. The only thing we should be "pondering" re: Mystic's posts is how much Carmody sucks.

You might not like what Mystic has to say, but he's an OG on these boards -- not just under this handle, but also under its predecessor, twinightdh. (We all had to change our user names in the spring of 2001 when the site was sold.) In fact, long before haywood showed up, Mystic was *the* guy with the inside scoop (ever wonder why he's such a fan of the BC era?). Plus, he actually knows a thing or two about basketball. So give him sh** for the stuff he posts now if you want, but don't embarrass yourself by reducing him to a simple troll account.

 

[DaCat]

But how does that compare on the Regret scale to never making the NCAA Tournament? Kinda light, IMO.

Maybe I missed the BTN feature about Carmody's four NIT seasons.

Ding ding ding! We have a winner!

How easy people forget, Collins accomplished something that no one has EVER done before at NU basketball. Making it to the NCAA tournament should give Collins a Get-out-of-jail card for the next 10 years. I know he won't rest on his laurels, but we should remember that this is still his first head coaching gig. In a way, he's still work-in-progress as a coach, and will get better.

 

[NJCat]

but we should remember that this is still his first head coaching gig. In a way, he's still work-in-progress as a coach, and will get better.

I get what you're saying, but he has been a head coach for 5 full years now, and in coaching for over 20 considering his prior experience at Seton Hall and Duke. Not exactly a babe in the woods like the 31-year old Fitz was when he took over following the Walker tragedy......

 

[Medill90]

I think these continued comparisons are not effective because the two coaches have vastly different strengths and styles. Also, some folks clearly have axes to grind.

I’m hopeful the coaching staff steps up their game and the players follow suit next season. And I look forward to the future of this team.

Checking in a day later to say you are absolutely right. Apologize to the board for tilting at the windmills.

 

[FloridAlum]

You might not like what Mystic has to say, but he's an OG on these boards -- not just under this handle, but also under its predecessor, twinightdh. (We all had to change our user names in the spring of 2001 when the site was sold.) In fact, long before haywood showed up, Mystic was *the* guy with the inside scoop (ever wonder why he's such a fan of the BC era?). Plus, he actually knows a thing or two about basketball. So give him sh** for the stuff he posts now if you want, but don't embarrass yourself by reducing him to a simple troll account.

Spring of 2001, strange time, looked like this board was totally going out of business for a while due to original owner bankruptcy until a new owner came along.Then everyone had to re-register. For some reason a bunch of us were able to keep our original board names,like perhaps EvanstonCat and me for example, but some folks were unable to login and had to change their names.Some changes were interesting like knockwurst became Bratwurst, Some took a while to figure out, like Bill MD became Deep Purr. Did you ever noticed how many people still show a start date of May 29, 2001, like you and me, all people who had been registered before that date. Then there are also a bunch who must’ve had some problems getting re-registered and have start dates of June or July 2001.

 

[NUera]

Spring of 2001, strange time, looked like this board was totally going out of business for a while due to original owner bankruptcy until a new owner came along.Then everyone had to re-register. For some reason a bunch of us were able to keep our original board names,like perhaps EvanstonCat and me for example, but some folks were unable to login and had to change their names.Some changes were interesting like knockwurst became Bratwurst, Some took a while to figure out, like Bill MD became Deep Purr. Did you ever noticed how many people still show a start date of May 29, 2001, like you and me, all people who had been registered before that date. Then there are also a bunch who must’ve had some problems getting re-registered and have start dates of June or July 2001.

That's right -- it really did look like the forum's days were numbered. I actually think EvanstonCat was originally ChinaCat before the switch, but I'm not positive. (I also had a different name, but it was embarrassingly bad, so I'm grateful for the mulligan.) Good call on the May 29 thing. I'd never noticed that before. It's a badge of honor, of sorts. That, and having been at the board meet-up in Vegas in 2002.

 

[MysticCat]

The

Spring of 2001, strange time, looked like this board was totally going out of business for a while due to original owner bankruptcy until a new owner came along.Then everyone had to re-register. For some reason a bunch of us were able to keep our original board names,like perhaps EvanstonCat and me for example, but some folks were unable to login and had to change their names.Some changes were interesting like knockwurst became Bratwurst, Some took a while to figure out, like Bill MD became Deep Purr. Did you ever noticed how many people still show a start date of May 29, 2001, like you and me, all people who had been registered before that date. Then there are also a bunch who must’ve had some problems getting re-registered and have start dates of June or July 2001.

The old Purple Reign board!

God, has it been 17 years?

Then there was the Scout board for awhile but I think it folded.

 

[hdhntr1]

^ OK, let's make that a far more enthusiastic recruiter.

And yes, time will tell - but based on incoming class, don't think there's much of a debate.

My issue, however, is w/ those who keep arguing that recruiting hadn't been improving under BC (starting around '06-07) - and likely would have kept improving; just not to extent as under CC for various reasons I had previously listed: CC being younger, a former star player (local as well), has championship rings, has a personality more suited to recruiting, doesn't run the Princeton O, etc..

Seems like some have forgotten about Terence Parker, Jim Maley, Evan Seacat, Sterling Williams, Brandon Lee, Gary Lee, Jr., etc. which was truly the dark times in recruiting (and yes, BC shares in the blame for that).



You seriously don't think recruiting improved from before '06-07 (with the list of the aforementioned) - when the program started to land guys w/ offers from not only Power 5 or high mid-majors, but blue-bloods like Louisville?




Pardon - Pitt, Xavier
Benson - UI, IU, Iowa, DePaul

Rowley - Wisconsin, Pitt, Baylor, Marquette, DePaul
Luka - Louisville, Marquette, DePaul

Depends on what you mean by high quality bigs.

If it is based on recruiting interest - than Rowley and Luka were arguably of higher quality than Pardon and Benson.

Now, if it is based on actual play on the court...

Pardon had the least interest on the recruiting front, but from what I had read about him, liked him from the start.




So you've gone from extolling that class (based on recruiting rankings and such) to downplaying them now in order to fit your latest argument. lol

Gee, like BC never developed players.

Like a certain someone who ended up being the leading scorer in NU history or a walk-on who ended up in the NBA?

And while BMac was great, Juice was still the better PG.




Law wouldn't have gone to NU if BC was still the coach due to how BC handled his offer.

Who's to say if Law still wouldn't have ended up at NU if someone else other than CC replaced BC.

Also, we don't know if someone like Reid Travis (who was a higher ranked 4-star than Law) wouldn't have ended up at NU.

No one is disagreeing that recruiting improved after Hardy was brought on. But we were still pretty weak overall. Our best players were little recruited guys that played out well for us. Guys that fit into the system like Coble, Crawford and Shurna. Didn't they all start as FROSH? For the most part, guys did not improve much under BC. They either came in and started as Frosh and what they were as Frosh was pretty similar to what they were as SRs. Exceptions include Nash and Hearn.

 

[Styre]

For the most part, guys did not improve much under BC. They either came in and started as Frosh and what they were as Frosh was pretty similar to what they were as SRs. Exceptions include Nash and Hearn.

Yeah, when John Shurna was a freshman we all looked at him and thought "yep, that's our all-time leading scorer right there."

 

[Sec.112]

Mystic / Katatonic, you'll have to let me know how this discussion evolved from YOUR ridiculous comparison of two four-year classes to mind-reading of the 17-18 group without any discussion of the 12-13 class (and ignoring that the original comparison was to 16-17 class).

Your moving target is a waste of time, especially when you're arguing something we already agreed on.

I know It's tough to keep all your personalities straight when you're trolling on so many levels.

 

[Wrestlerneverdiesasacatfan]

Collins made it to the tourney with one lower 3 star Skelly, a mid-level 3-Star (Lindsey) coming off a broken leg, and a high 3 star (McIntosh) who had committed to Indiana St. All three players developed their games well under Collins. Law was a 4 star and has the most all around talent of the class who never would have gone to NU. Now NU has 3 star talents coming in in Nance, Kopp and Lathon and a developing 6’10” player who is a high 3 star and a 4 star transfer Turner. That is the no. 21 class in the nation before factoring in Turner.

No other Power 5 coach or Big 10 coach would have survived as long as BC. Period.

Collins almost made it this year also

 

[mikewebb68]

You might not like what Mystic has to say, but he's an OG on these boards -- not just under this handle, but also under its predecessor, twinightdh. (We all had to change our user names in the spring of 2001 when the site was sold.) In fact, long before haywood showed up, Mystic was *the* guy with the inside scoop (ever wonder why he's such a fan of the BC era?). Plus, he actually knows a thing or two about basketball. So give him sh** for the stuff he posts now if you want, but don't embarrass yourself by reducing him to a simple troll account.

I don't think "troll account" means what you think it means.

 

[ColumbusCatFan1]

So give him sh** for the stuff he posts now if you want...

And to be fair, Mystic is not the only participant on this site who's approach/demeanor has tanked over the years to the point of being unreadable.

It's not the first time I've said it, but the Carmody Wars did a real number on a handful of posters. As Eager pointed out above, it's clear some still have axes to grind.

 

[MysticCat]

And to be fair, Mystic is not the only participant on this site who's approach/demeanor has tanked over the years to the point of being unreadable.

It's not the first time I've said it, but the Carmody Wars did a real number on a handful of posters. As Eager pointed out above, it's clear some still have axes to grind.

My “aporoach/demeanor” has never changed.

I was BCs toughest critic when warranted. His Last 5 years we had 3+ guys on the bench every year who should have been thankful to be in the MAAC. (Not to mention before his last 5 years)

This is not an easy place to succeed. The building and academic easing should help.

I learned a long time ago to not care about recruit ratings, so I don’t really care how many stars our next incoming class had.

That being said, I’m Certainly not sold on CC. BC had teams that were a basket or 2 in 30 games away from the NCAA. But they didn’t, and these guys did. I’m not quibbling about that difference.

But, we’re the 170th best team in the country! Yes NCAAs last year, he went to Duke, he yells about rebounding... blah, blah, blah.

The guy is underprepared, amateurish and some might say a little lazy.

You could easily mistake this season for any of 50 in our sorry history. To read this board you would think we’re 2 years away from going 35-0.

I think me and a lot of the other posters here are just making the point - yeah we snuck in last year when everything fell our way, but where are we in the scheme of things overall? Oh yeah. 10th place in the 6th best conference and 170th in the country. It’s been more than half a decade.

It’s fine to be optimistic and hopeful, but it’s just more of the same at NU.

Turner is great. The returnees, not much. Have to hope the freshman are solid so maybe in 2 or 3 years we can get good again.

Law, pardon, brown, benson, Gaines, Falzon .... etc, just looks like a horrible team unless the BIG sucks again next year for the third year in a row.

Newcomers better be damn good.

 

[DaCat]

My “aporoach/demeanor” has never changed.

I was BCs toughest critic when warranted. His Last 5 years we had 3+ guys on the bench every year who should have been thankful to be in the MAAC. (Not to mention before his last 5 years)

This is not an easy place to succeed. The building and academic easing should help.

I learned a long time ago to not care about recruit ratings, so I don’t really care how many stars our next incoming class had.

That being said, I’m Certainly not sold on CC. BC had teams that were a basket or 2 in 30 games away from the NCAA. But they didn’t, and these guys did. I’m not quibbling about that difference.

But, we’re the 170th best team in the country! Yes NCAAs last year, he went to Duke, he yells about rebounding... blah, blah, blah.

The guy is underprepared, amateurish and some might say a little lazy.

You could easily mistake this season for any of 50 in our sorry history. To read this board you would think we’re 2 years away from going 35-0.

I think me and a lot of the other posters here are just making the point - yeah we snuck in last year when everything fell our way, but where are we in the scheme of things overall? Oh yeah. 10th place in the 6th best conference and 170th in the country. It’s been more than half a decade.

It’s fine to be optimistic and hopeful, but it’s just more of the same at NU.

Turner is great. The returnees, not much. Have to hope the freshman are solid so maybe in 2 or 3 years we can get good again.

Law, pardon, brown, benson, Gaines, Falzon .... etc, just looks like a horrible team unless the BIG sucks again next year for the third year in a row.

Newcomers better be damn good.

Just out of curiosity, what is your relationship or connection to Carmody?

 

[willycat]

My “aporoach/demeanor” has never changed.

I was BCs toughest critic when warranted. His Last 5 years we had 3+ guys on the bench every year who should have been thankful to be in the MAAC. (Not to mention before his last 5 years)

This is not an easy place to succeed. The building and academic easing should help.

I learned a long time ago to not care about recruit ratings, so I don’t really care how many stars our next incoming class had.

That being said, I’m Certainly not sold on CC. BC had teams that were a basket or 2 in 30 games away from the NCAA. But they didn’t, and these guys did. I’m not quibbling about that difference.

But, we’re the 170th best team in the country! Yes NCAAs last year, he went to Duke, he yells about rebounding... blah, blah, blah.

The guy is underprepared, amateurish and some might say a little lazy.

You could easily mistake this season for any of 50 in our sorry history. To read this board you would think we’re 2 years away from going 35-0.

I think me and a lot of the other posters here are just making the point - yeah we snuck in last year when everything fell our way, but where are we in the scheme of things overall? Oh yeah. 10th place in the 6th best conference and 170th in the country. It’s been more than half a decade.

It’s fine to be optimistic and hopeful, but it’s just more of the same at NU.

Turner is great. The returnees, not much. Have to hope the freshman are solid so maybe in 2 or 3 years we can get good again.

Law, pardon, brown, benson, Gaines, Falzon .... etc, just looks like a horrible team unless the BIG sucks again next year for the third year in a row.

Newcomers better be damn good.

First and foremost Collins coached the first, ever NU BB team to a NCAA Tournament. That should be enough to show him the respect he deserves. Secondly, what academic easing are you referencing? Please tell us all or it will just be put in your mounting column of lies. law and Pardon are not much, really? That is either you showing your hatred that Collins replaced Carmody or you know zero about basketball. Saying Collins is lazy, when your "hero" couldn't be bothered to be around when a top recruit visited NU is just obscured. Now go and watch Holy Cross in the tournament. Oh wait, there not in it. How about the NIT? maybe they could make the Massachusetts High School tourney.

 

[Sec.112]

Remember this statement, Mystic/Katatonic?

"It really wins me over when somebody uses one of the more stupid and inaccurate statements of a poster or two and tries to support their position by passing it off as conventional wisdom."

You know, one of the few posts of mine that you've actually agreed with? The one that was shortly after one of your crazy worthless rants about the disgust of "fake news" on this board.

What happened? Instead, we have the following in a single post:

... [in reference to Collins] some might say a little lazy ...

... To read this board you would think we’re 2 years away from going 35-0 ...

I think me and a lot of the other posters here are just making the point - yeah we snuck in last year when everything fell our way, but where are we in the scheme of things overall?

Any chance you want to point to any more than two people who wrote/agreed with any one of these statements? You have six pages of a conversation to work with - at a minimum.

I mean, does whatever-it-is-you're-doing-here have no bounds? Do you really think people are that dumb? Do you really think repeatedly inventing this stuff helps whatever-it-is you're trying to poorly perpetuate?

At this point you're just inventing stuff to be a sh*thead, and it's old ... dead ... buried ... decomposed.

We get it. You have your doubts about CC. Maybe we can even play along, ignore the ongoing litany of unneeded comparisons to Carmody and pretend this is motivated simply by a desire to see NU improve.

If you were anything close to not being this weird caricacture that you've become, you might find an organic discussion about improvements CC needs to make ... as there have been in the past. But if you keep this going, you just squash your own purpose. No skin off my back.

In the meantime, how about saving the shred that's left of your online dignity and quit inventing "majority opinions" that don't exist?

Although I must say, my favorite was the "quibbling" but not quibbling statement:

... BC had teams that were a basket or 2 in 30 games away from the NCAA ... I’m not quibbling about that difference.

Let's forget for a moment how poorly this is presented. Knowing your penchant for accuracy, I'm sure the intended statement is right on the money ... I think.

Keep up the the good work you do running in circles, M/K.