I could understand both sides at the time. As you say, not his fault, but.... And it was not his first sub 5 BIG win campaign but his 5th.
Just something to ponder
- Thread starter catsattackfor3
- Start date
seemed like NU recruiting picked up a bit when Hardy came aboard. Also seem to remember that Sina was recruited by the other assistant that was added. Think he was a east coast guy.
Here's a few more links from the first page of a google search titled: "Jaren Sina top 100 four star".
https://www.insidenu.com/2012/7/2/3...ball-recruiting-four-star-pg-gill-st-bernards
http://shupirates.com/roster.aspx?rp_id=230
https://www.gsbschool.org/page/news-detail?pk=938617
http://www.laketheposts.com/2012/07/02/northwestern-lands-jaren-sina-070212/
I think it's fair to claim Sina was considered a catch at the time of his commitment and was close to, if not on par, with Collins top signings.
That being said, your point regarding CC's capabilities on the recruiting front is obviously spot on. Chris has done a remarkable job and I'm not sure any reasonable person could argue with the results we've seen, at least on paper.
I wholeheartedly agree. Worked out incredibly well for NU in the end.
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Shurna and Crawford committed fairly early in the process.
BMac didn't have a lot of offers when he initially committed to Indiana St.
Now, BC wasn't a great recruiter by any means, but let's not undersell what he did.
Despite committing fairly early in the process, BC still had to beat out OSU, Wake and DePaul for Drew.
Kale Abrahamson had offers from -
Stanford, Iowa, Neb, Iowa St., Harvard, Wake, Seton Hall, BC and Creighton (among others).
That's still probably better than the majority of CC's recruits (not counting the incoming class).
Demps had offers from Minny, Stanford, Colorado and Harvard (among others).
Tap had offers from BC, Colorado, Colorado St. and Creighton (among others).
And remember that 2008 class that had so many here excited?
Rowley - Wisconsin, Georgetown, Pitt, Marquette, Baylor and DePaul.
Luka - Louisville, Marquette and DePaul
Freundt - DePaul, Xavier, GW, Dayton (among others).
Curletti - preferred walk-on at MSU (among others)
Shurna - only NU
I'm talking about when BC had some talent.
Basically, the Juice, Shurna and Crawford years (even tho they were all part of different classes which was part of the problem).
During that time-frame, went to 4 straight NITs and would have been 5 (if not an NCAA berth) if the 2012-13 team hadn't experienced a catastrophic amount of injuries (in addition to Cobb's suspension).
Now, I suspect that CC will find more consistency w/ the incoming class of frosh (another good recruiting class, even if not 'til 2020, will help that), but let's face it, 1 post-season appearance from the BMac, Law, Lindsey and Skelly class is a disappointment.
As for the other thing - c'mon now.
You should know that stringing a coach along one a year-to-year basis is not how things work in college sports (unless the AD is itching to fire the coach).
There's a reason why ADs offer extensions to coaches a couple years before their contracts are up - to give recruits peace of mind that the coach will be there for their entire collegiate career (even if that's no guarantee).
You don't think recruits (and their families) were asking BC - how long he was going to be coaching at NU?
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Your sure starting to sound like another board Carmody hugger. BMac, Skelly, Lindsey and Law class a disappointment, really? Never heard that recruits were worried that Carmody would not be coaching NU, just that Law's father had said that if BC was coaching the Wildcats his son would not be coming to Evanston. Also seem to remember that Collins was a big reason BMac switched from Indiana St.
So let me get this straight. The group that never achieved the goal leaves you with a positive and hopeful vibe (my generous term). Yet, you're left with a negative feeling about the group who actually achieved the goal and brought much more to the program.
That's an interesting fan barometer.
The difference is signings vs one single signee over 13 years. But his rating also dropped off. And even if we include Cobb, it is at most 2 over a 13 year period vs Collins 2-3 in one year. Goes with my statement that even the blind squirrel finds an acorn now and again. It was Fred Hill who actually recruited him
I feel as though by trying to discuss this rationally we're normalizing a pretty nutso concept.
I liked Carmody and he had some good teams and players. I liked Faulk, same deal and just missed the tournament in what was maybe the strongest Big Ten year ever. Same with Foster who brought in some great, great players.
But no NU coach since the 60's has approached what Collins has done from a recruiting perspective in his first five years. He has consistently brought in a level of recruit that is at a level with and mostly above the high-point of other NU coaches.
They may break, they may underperform, etc., etc. But he's consistently bringing in the talent to win.
I don't find him as hilarious behind the mic as Carmody, but he is entertaining. And life moves on (as Coach Ditka used to say)
I liked Carmody and he had some good teams and players. I liked Faulk, same deal and just missed the tournament in what was maybe the strongest Big Ten year ever. Same with Foster who brought in some great, great players.
But no NU coach since the 60's has approached what Collins has done from a recruiting perspective in his first five years. He has consistently brought in a level of recruit that is at a level with and mostly above the high-point of other NU coaches.
They may break, they may underperform, etc., etc. But he's consistently bringing in the talent to win.
I don't find him as hilarious behind the mic as Carmody, but he is entertaining. And life moves on (as Coach Ditka used to say)
And the
As far as stringing BC along, 13 years. Did BC deserve one more year? Maybe and I would have been fine with it. But CCC was available then (have to think Phillips knew more than we did) so it was time to move on.
Difference is that those were all 3 stars at best where CC has been bringing in 4 stars and top 100 recruits (Law 104) since his first class. Also 2015/16 record (20 wins, most BC ever got) should have gotten them into at least NIT. And if you are going to claim injury excuse for 2012/13 you also have to allow it for this year. RAP, Falzon slow recovery, Ash, BMac, Law on a roster that was 12 scholarship players. Just saying if you use the excuse for one you have to allow it for the other.
As far as stringing BC along, 13 years. Did BC deserve one more year? Maybe and I would have been fine with it. But CCC was available then (have to think Phillips knew more than we did) so it was time to move on.
It picked up a lot when Hardy came aboard., It was Fred Hill that recruited Sina. Shocking that BC was there when Sina came to town
I love how people go through the list of all the great recruits BC got over the years, and say - boy, his various assistants over the years sure found some players for him!
Then CC10P gets comments and it’s like -Wow! CC really gets out there and recruits!
For the record, assistant coaches do about 95% of the recruiting work. The head coach does the final evaluation and seals the deal.
P.s.
Another note from the - how quickly we forget department- is the CC10Pers are breathlessly talking about stars and internet rankings.
2 of BCs earliest and best recruits weren’t even given stars at all because of where they were.
Vukusic would easily have been a 4 star (best NU player since Esch IMO), and Hachad visited Kentucky, Kansas and others.
Also MTI was a 5 Star !!! in some pubs, as was Bernard Cote for awhile before becoming a consensus 4 and Swop also a 4.
So maybe the - BC never spoke to a 4 star in his life- routine can be seen for what it is: idiotic and false.
Pss.
Am I the only one who finds it hilarious that we have people on here trying to determine if Jaren Sina was a good recruit or not based on whether he was top 100 when we offered, but not after, or both..... or he was “pretty” good because he was 92...... oh wait never mind, I misread it, he was 102. So I guess he wasn’t that good after all.....
Too much!
10th place again.
You make some valid points and there are more than one or two posters here who agree with a lot of those points.
But when you do the "10th place again" thing, you are asking for guys to come shit on your head. If you're an NU fan, which I believe you to be, it's a dick move. And no one likes a dick.
It would be one thing if you had a history of wavering from sometimes dickish to not very dick-like or just a little weenie-like. But you are consistently the big dildo on this topic.
10th place again?
My response is, it's been five fxxking years. We went to the tournament last year. Get some help.
Great post.
This seems to be a binary topic, either Carmody sucks (ECat, Willy and Mike Webb) or Collins blows (Mystic). There are a few posters who seem to think Carmody did a good job getting NU from Point A to Point B, and Collins has done well getting them to Point C but still is a work in progress (I count myself among that elite group
). But like you said, it's been 5 years, time to move on and live in the present. NU hoops (and NU sports in general) will have ups and downs but we all share an interest in these kids. Like Rodney King once said, "can't we all just get along?"Great post.
This seems to be a binary topic, either Carmody sucks (ECat, Willy and Mike Webb) or Collins blows (Mystic). There are a few posters who seem to think Carmody did a good job getting NU from Point A to Point B, and Collins has done well getting them to Point C but still is a work in progress (I count myself among that elite group
I just find the fake news aspect of it all rather amusing.
Just to name a few:
- BC never landed a top 100 kid. Then multiple posters point out that it was probably closer to 6 than none, including a 5 star.
- When CC purges all the BC leftovers were going to the final 4! Well, last 4 in the historically weak Big Ten, as it turned out.
- “We turned the corner this year.”
What corner exactly? The one that landed us as the 170th rated team in the country?
And on and on.
It’s just funny to hear people moan for 3 years that the only reason CCs teams have sucked is because of the BC kids. Then we heard we were only good last year because most of them were gone, then when CCs first team with no excuses to blame on anyone else implodes in embarrassing fashion they start talking about how CCs recruit was #97 nationally and so and so wasn’t EVEN in the top 100 because he was 102, etc.
It’s classic “pssst, hey look over here, don’t look at the 10th place BIG 10 finish or the 170 RPI. We’re MORE ATHLETIC NOW! We focus on defense! We out rebounded them (while losing our 6th game in a row to another doormat), etc.
It’s silly, but fun to play along sometimes.
So I’m all for program optimism (and nowhere near saying the CC move was a failure), but opinions aside:
Seems like it just happened but it’s been half a decade now.
One postseason.
4 that weren’t even close. Creaning. Quitting. Mind boggling stupid T’s, rookie coaching mistakes in year 5, conceding single point differential games with over a minute to go, a bunch of 1990s era type recruits, passive aggressive pissing matches and moping. 3 sub .500 seasons.
And now we lose 3 starters from a 10th place team.
50% of our returnees have shown they are nowhere near ready to lead us to a postseason and the 4 new guys are unknowns.
We better hope that in two years the 2018 incoming class is the real deal.
I got locked down for the third time a few weeks ago for saying less controversial stuff than this! Lol
Things that are true aren’t controversial, they’re just ... true.
Math don’t lie.
It bears repeating: lying about the accomplishments, or lack thereof, of previous coaches neither helps the current coach nor makes you sound intelligent. As you have seen, as soon as someone willing to be honest and not indulge in fictionalized history comes along, the whole house of cards falls and all that's left are nonsensical ad hominems. These fabrications that Carmody or O'Neill never signed top 100 recruits is patently false and can be easily dismissed.
For the record, I thought it was probably time to move on from Carmody and thought and continue to think Collins was a good hire. However, the fact is that he's had at least two recruiting classes that just won't cut it. I've listed players before who just aren't Big 10 material or aren't the types of players who are going to get you in the top half of the conference year-after-year. And, like his predecessors, most of his recruits are in the 120-200 range. That won't get it done. He knows it and any objective fans knows that. It didn't get it done for O'Neill and Carmody and it won't work any better now.
For the record, I thought it was probably time to move on from Carmody and thought and continue to think Collins was a good hire. However, the fact is that he's had at least two recruiting classes that just won't cut it. I've listed players before who just aren't Big 10 material or aren't the types of players who are going to get you in the top half of the conference year-after-year. And, like his predecessors, most of his recruits are in the 120-200 range. That won't get it done. He knows it and any objective fans knows that. It didn't get it done for O'Neill and Carmody and it won't work any better now.
You and the mytic are full of s--t. In 13 seasons BC got NU into the NCAA tournament zero times. In five seasons Collins got NU into the dance ! So shut the f--k up!
The biggest reason why we're struggling is that Collins' second and third recruiting classes have not panned out to date. Out of six players, only one (Pardon) has established himself as a Big Ten-caliber starter. I don't entirely fault Collins for this, as it's not his fault that neither Rap nor Falzon can stay healthy, but as of right now we only have two guys on the roster (Law and Pardon) that we know will be starting-caliber on opening night. We'll need some guys to step up in a big way or next year could be another long season.
How about Benson? Gaines? Three of the four new recruits are 4* or better. Don't think next season will be very long.
Your histrionics aren't helpful. No one has claimed Carmody ever took a team to the Tournament nor has anyone in this thread argued that Carmody should not have been fired. This is what is called a "strawman argument." What has been at issue is lying about what past coaches accomplished and fibbing about the recruiting rankings of more recent recruits.
This discussion sucks worse than this season did.
Benson looked good for the last two games of this season, but that's hardly enough to say with certainty that he's a Big Ten starter. And it's kind of a moot point because at best he's going to be splitting time with Pardon as I can't see them getting a lot of time on the floor together. Gaines has a lot of potential but he's still raw and his game needs work (and I wasn't talking about him; I said Collins' second and third classes and Gaines was the fourth). And yes, the freshmen are highly rated, but teams that rely heavily on freshmen usually don't do very well unless those freshmen are NBA-caliber.
Tl;dr. Here's is a much more succinct post for you; Carmody sucks.
Yo loser, Carmody was not a good recruiter, just admit it. He just wasn't into it. There were good players who came to the program during his tenure but that was mostly the assistants doing the heavy lifting.
Cheer up mike and Willy: Jerry Palm has us in his “Next 150 out” category.
Great post.
This seems to be a binary topic, either Carmody sucks (ECat, Willy and Mike Webb) or Collins blows (Mystic). There are a few posters who seem to think Carmody did a good job getting NU from Point A to Point B, and Collins has done well getting them to Point C but still is a work in progress (I count myself among that elite group
Well put. Thank you, NJ.
Pro tip; when someone is trolling another poster, you have to take what the troller posts with a grain of salt...
While the incoming freshman class seemingly bodes well for the future (crossed fingers), I hope most posters realize NU will likely go as far as Vic, Dererk, Aaron, AJ (and Jordan?) take them next year.
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Mike, I like your positive spin on the program (I'm with you there), but sometimes it's okay to chill out with the trolling shitck.
The ignore feature is a wonderful thing. When used judiciously, it makes this board more enjoyable to read. I say that as someone who (over the past 15 or so years) has preferred this forum over the the football board even though my knowledge base learns toward the later.
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You know what I really admire in these beat-a-dead-horse conversations? It really wins me over when somebody uses one of the more stupid and inaccurate statements of a poster or two and tries to support their position by passing it off as conventional wisdom.
That's a real high-character move that always helps build support for your position. Keep up the good work.
That's a real high-character move that always helps build support for your position. Keep up the good work.
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