Howard is such a jerk and at fault here, but I’ve always found shaking hands odd. Nice in theory, but these games get intense. Baseball gets by fine without it!
Mich / Wisc Brawl
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Agreed, what's the big deal with the timeout. As a fan I admit I too get a big aggravated at these unnecessary timeouts but those situations are limited to outdoor football games where the weather is crummy lol.
Let them play, especially when dealing with reserves. I mean in yesterday's LAX game we were up 7 with 7 seconds left and were awarded a FPS. We could have passed off but we went for the goal. Why turn down opportunity for real game experience? Guessing the ASU coach felt the same about getting her keeper more experience. If she had stopped it the game would have ended on a high note for her.
Particularly the one who reaches over several people to cuff someone other than the guy he was originally arguing with.
I guess that Wisconsin assistant shouldn't have let his Gard down.
They should kiss European style. It’s respectful but not invasive.
Is it stupid to press walk-ons in the closing seconds of a blowout? Absolutely. But Gard needs to stop being the unofficial enforcer of unwritten rules. If you'll recall, he got butt-hurt over Sanjay's late dunk in the 2017 win in Madison and tried to start something with Collins.
A summary, from my perspective, and after a night of sleep:
1) First infraction - Howard keeps pressing down 15 with seconds to go
2) Second infraction - Gard refuses to take a 10 second violation
3) Third infraction - Howard tries to avoid the hand shake
4) Fourth infraction - Gard stops and forces Howard to listen (spare me the puts his hands on Howard and he feels threatened, have you looked at Gard?) when Howard clearly did not want to hear Gard's reasoning
5) Fifth infraction - Howard grabs Gard's shirt
6) Sixth infraction - WI's assistant coach decides to move in and escalate tensions
7) Seventh infraction - Howard throws slap/punch
8) Eight infraction - instead of just leaving it at losing your cool in the heat of the moment, Howard goes into press conference, after having had some time to thing about it, standing his ground with a ridiculous self defense argument
Nothing above comes close to the severity of #6, and I am ignoring the players here. I am talking just about the adults, especially the basketball coach, the so often called leader of (young) men. Pretty apparent MI should have suspended his ass last year after the Turgeon incident. Maybe, just maybe, yesterday would have played out differently.
What he did is the opposite of what a head coach should be. A disgraceful way to represent your employer. The opposite of what a leader of young men should be. Followed by a demonstration of total lack of self awareness "it was time to protect myself".
Howard won't be fired. Coaches at places like Michigan, who win games, don't get fired so "easily". Even if they behave like a child. Even if they throw their second tantrum in less than a year. What will happen is we'll see the creative deflection and excuse making typical of these cases. To a small extent we are already seeing it in this thread.
1) the hand shake line is silly? Let's at least pretend this is an educational setting. If you can't handle the hand shake maybe you should not be a college coach, period
2) Gard and the assistant are at fault? Yes, but that does not excuse or compares to Howard's actions and does not mean others should not suffer consequences
3) The university's statement after the incident mentions "instigating factors". There's a sign of how this will be played out
Howard will not get fired. We'll see this play out with arguments that reflect the emotions of the MI fan base. And, for now, Howard is a name that means a lot to Michigan athletics. But he should be fired.
I like to think I'd have a different opinion if this was his first infraction. But maybe I would not. I have a visceral reaction to seeing this type of behavior from someone who is, without a doubt, the one most responsible on the MI side to prevent something like this from happening. His players were put in harm's way and now face suspensions because of the actions of a grown man. Pathetic.
1) First infraction - Howard keeps pressing down 15 with seconds to go
2) Second infraction - Gard refuses to take a 10 second violation
3) Third infraction - Howard tries to avoid the hand shake
4) Fourth infraction - Gard stops and forces Howard to listen (spare me the puts his hands on Howard and he feels threatened, have you looked at Gard?) when Howard clearly did not want to hear Gard's reasoning
5) Fifth infraction - Howard grabs Gard's shirt
6) Sixth infraction - WI's assistant coach decides to move in and escalate tensions
7) Seventh infraction - Howard throws slap/punch
8) Eight infraction - instead of just leaving it at losing your cool in the heat of the moment, Howard goes into press conference, after having had some time to thing about it, standing his ground with a ridiculous self defense argument
Nothing above comes close to the severity of #6, and I am ignoring the players here. I am talking just about the adults, especially the basketball coach, the so often called leader of (young) men. Pretty apparent MI should have suspended his ass last year after the Turgeon incident. Maybe, just maybe, yesterday would have played out differently.
What he did is the opposite of what a head coach should be. A disgraceful way to represent your employer. The opposite of what a leader of young men should be. Followed by a demonstration of total lack of self awareness "it was time to protect myself".
Howard won't be fired. Coaches at places like Michigan, who win games, don't get fired so "easily". Even if they behave like a child. Even if they throw their second tantrum in less than a year. What will happen is we'll see the creative deflection and excuse making typical of these cases. To a small extent we are already seeing it in this thread.
1) the hand shake line is silly? Let's at least pretend this is an educational setting. If you can't handle the hand shake maybe you should not be a college coach, period
2) Gard and the assistant are at fault? Yes, but that does not excuse or compares to Howard's actions and does not mean others should not suffer consequences
3) The university's statement after the incident mentions "instigating factors". There's a sign of how this will be played out
Howard will not get fired. We'll see this play out with arguments that reflect the emotions of the MI fan base. And, for now, Howard is a name that means a lot to Michigan athletics. But he should be fired.
I like to think I'd have a different opinion if this was his first infraction. But maybe I would not. I have a visceral reaction to seeing this type of behavior from someone who is, without a doubt, the one most responsible on the MI side to prevent something like this from happening. His players were put in harm's way and now face suspensions because of the actions of a grown man. Pathetic.
Michigan and Howard should not have been playing a full court press in that situation, trying to force a turnover in the backcourt. Down 15 with 15 seconds to play. Its worse because Wisconsin had done the "proper" thing and emptied the bench. Just allow them to cross midcourt and dribble out the clock, like everybody else does.
Howard comes off really badly here.
However, Gard should have allowed Howard to blow by him in the handshake line. When you win the game, you should just let it go, especially when your counterpart is a loose cannon.
Howard comes off really badly here.
However, Gard should have allowed Howard to blow by him in the handshake line. When you win the game, you should just let it go, especially when your counterpart is a loose cannon.
The video that was linked upthread shows that Howard muttered something. Perhaps Gard, who is a few years older and many years more experienced as a coach, wanted to encourage the relative youngster to speak up if he wants to be heard.
None of this happens if Howard doesn’t press, and if Howard doesn’t start shit in the line, and if Howard doesn’t *throw a g-d punch.*
Our society has suffered because people insist that both sides are equally valid. In this case, Howard’s approach (pressing, starting crap, punching) is 100% invalid, and Gard’s (timeout, jawing back) was a fraction of that.
Howard wasn’t “blowing Gard off” in the handshake line. He was starting crap anew.
(And I think of the departed NU performance studies guy: “when we perform, we create the world anew!”)
It looked to me like Howard tried to walk past Gard.
If Howard something like "I'm going to kill you" or "You're a %$%#@($" then, of course, Gard has every right to try to resolve that.
He said “I’ll remember that next year”, or something along those lines. Took off his mask to say it. Intent was to start something, or to get the ‘last word’ in. Stupid crap.
somewhere between infraction 5 and 7, something like 2 minutes elapsed and Gard (they guy Howard was pi$$ed at) had moved several feet away whilst Howard continued jawing at others. Also there were like 5 people between Howard and the assistant Krabbenhoft. Howard reached over several people to cuff him.
Reading your narrative without the video makes it sound like Howard and Gard were still face to face (actually face to chest), and the assistant Krabbenhoft came in at that point to...assist, making it 2 against one. Not accurate. Now, I agree that he probably won't get fired. Nobody gets fired anymore. But let's not make it sound like self-defense when, after the 'grabbing' by Gard, Howard reached over several other guys to hit Krabbenhoft.
Okay so Howard said something that sounds like "I'm gonna miss you" as he tried to blow by Gard.
Gard said something like "oh hey" and grabbed Howard's arm at the elbow.
Howard immediately responded "Don't touch me.... Don't fu**ing touch me" and grabbed Gard by the shirt, then put his finger in Gard's face and continued with the "Don't fu**ing touch me" nonsense.
Meanwhile Gard is saying "You're gonna... You're gonna... You're gonna press..."
I'm pretty sure that's sarcasm, but I don't get it. Anyway, my point is that the situation where they were face-to-chest may have caused the later escalation, but it didn't happen right then, with Krabbenhoft there. I am pretty sure Gard was like 10 feet away when Howard reached over others to cuff Krabbenhoft.
Fourth infraction is going to be doing a lot of heavy lifting in the camp of Howard defenders.
A story (and it happened to me at an NU basketball game!):
I was sitting on an aisle a few rows up away from a fan of the other team across the aisle.
He and I said a few fan-like things to each other, and I stupidly punctuated by telling him what he can do with himself.
I immediately felt bad, but it was in the heat of the moment. A few minutes later, when I had calmed down, I went down to him, touched him on the shoulder or elbow lightly, and apologized. He accepted my apology. All was good.
Did I "put my hands on" this guy? Strictly speaking, yes. I felt like what Gard did in infraction 4 was similar to what i did. Kind of getting the attention of someone by touching him. The problem was Howard wasn't interested in hearing what Gard had to say (whether it was a sincere apology or a jerky excuse or anywhere in between), so the elbow touch was a threat.
I wasn't being sarcastic, I just couldn't make out what Howard said.
I listened to it really closely again and it seems like he said "I'll see you next year."
Gard absolutely tried to say "You're gonna... You're gonna" a few times while Howard was grabbing him, but it took a while to get out the words "You're gonna press my"
The touching of someone's arm in the line is very very common as a way of stopping to have a few quick words, instead of just moving along quickly.
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Glad Kopp didn’t react like Juwan when CCC stopped him in the handshake line to tell him how wonderful Kopp was. After that game, Kopp could have lost his $”@&.
If Kopp had thrown a punch, he would have missed.
Quite funny. Or if he landed, it would have hurt CCC because it would have been a brick.
Don't think that any U.S. sport programs have a handshake line. Guess you can say hockey does but that is only after a final game in the Championship Series. Baseball players just stay in their dugout or head to the locker room. Same with football players, except for a few that talk/congratulate others on the field. Don't think I have ever seen a handshake line in the NBA.
I think the after game handshake is a great idea. It should be mandatory in all sports. Spare me the competitive or competition excuse. In my prior life, we shook hands and congratulated opponents on their win after very contentious jury trials. Those were some very hard handshakes. However, it kept matters civil.
If adults cannot maintain civilIty to go through a handshake, it shows a complete lack of emotional maturity, honor and respect. It sets a terrible example to the young people. People wonder why society is effed up. The actions referenced in this post are exhibit #1.
If adults cannot maintain civilIty to go through a handshake, it shows a complete lack of emotional maturity, honor and respect. It sets a terrible example to the young people. People wonder why society is effed up. The actions referenced in this post are exhibit #1.
In this society? This polarized, us or them, if you aren’t with me then you are a racist society? It doesn’t surprise me one bit to see all this spill over into sports. It’s the message we have reinforced - my way or the Highway. It’s growing stronger and more divisive. And many folks around here are a small part of the problem. Guess it sucks to see it in others…let’s argue about it.
Huh?
Back on topic: Juwan Howard was suspended for the rest of the regular season.
If there’s a third post game incident I’m sure he’ll be a goner.
He will for sure be gone......... if they are having a subpar season.
This is pathetic. But it's a result that probably pleases most MI fans. The excusers will probably think that, under the circumstances, not bad. The others at least get some punishment to convince themselves that at least something happened.
Imagine if this happened in any of our places of business. Fired, arrested, sued.
If you’ve watched any of gard’s post game pressers on BTN especially after losses he’s kind of a passive aggressive dbag
look Howard is an idiot with anger management issues and deserved more punishment than he got. However Gard isn’t blameless. He had at least two chances to be the bigger man and couldn’t pass up the chance to escalate- by calling the TO (really think he was trying to coach his walk ons with 15 secs left and up 15?) and then by just not letting Howard walk on in the handshake line. With someone as unstable as Howard it’s always a great idea to put your hand on him and start trying to man ‘xplain
5 games off for Howard sounds about right. He was the only guy throwing a punch. A fine for Gard makes sense given that he is responsible for the program on the court.
Gard claimed the timeout was because his scrubs were having trouble getting the ball to mid court against the press. Have to accept that for face value.
Gard claimed the timeout was because his scrubs were having trouble getting the ball to mid court against the press. Have to accept that for face value.
That’s his excuse but do you really believe that? 15 secs left and up 15 points- like it matters if they turn the ball over? Having seen lots of last minute substitutions I can’t recall another coach ever doing that.
Howard’s obviously a poor loser but Gard should have been the bigger man and just let it go. If he wants to talk call him later in the week once emotions aren’t on defcon one
none of this excuses Howard. Just saying Gard made it all worse and based on what I’ve seen of him in the past it fits his demeanor
I got the sense Gard was going to let it go while simply walking through the handshake line...that all changed when Howard declared that he was "going to remember that shit". The "shit" that was predicated upon Howard pressing the bench players while down 15 with 15 seconds left in the game.
Howard made a statement:
“I am offering my sincerest apology to my players and their families, my staff, my family and the Michigan fans around the world. I would like to personally apologize to Wisconsin’s Assistant Coach Joe Krabbenhoft and his family, too.
“Lastly, I speak a lot about being a Michigan man and representing the University of Michigan with class and pride, I did not do that, nor did I set the right example in the right way for my student-athletes. I will learn from my mistake and this mistake will never happen again. No excuses!”
I am 99% sure this was written by some PR person. Now it will be up to him to either demonstrate it is, regardless, a genuine reflection of his beliefs, or just an attempt to cool things off.
“I am offering my sincerest apology to my players and their families, my staff, my family and the Michigan fans around the world. I would like to personally apologize to Wisconsin’s Assistant Coach Joe Krabbenhoft and his family, too.
“Lastly, I speak a lot about being a Michigan man and representing the University of Michigan with class and pride, I did not do that, nor did I set the right example in the right way for my student-athletes. I will learn from my mistake and this mistake will never happen again. No excuses!”
I am 99% sure this was written by some PR person. Now it will be up to him to either demonstrate it is, regardless, a genuine reflection of his beliefs, or just an attempt to cool things off.
Maybe you’ve never seen that because nobody presses 3rd team scrubs down 15 with 15 to go.
I will never blame a coach for coaching deep into his bench when they find themselves in a tough spot. Not gonna let any of my guys get embarrassed if I can help it.
Just a thought. GOUNUII
Let's accept your premise that Gard is a jerk (albeit an apparently non-violent one). Let's further say that Howard probably has experienced Gard's jerkiness in the past and should not have been surprised. However, let's further speculate that Howard's emotions got the best of him. So, as a result, several minutes after he and Gard are no longer talking, Howard reaches over several people and cuffs someone other than Gard. Help me understand that one.
I keep thinking how stupid a situation Howard put his players in. Imagine there were some Pistons style fans in the stands. He put his kids in potentially what? 15,000 to 20 situation?
Edit: Kohl center has a 17,000 capacity
Edit: Kohl center has a 17,000 capacity
The fact that a handshake line became combative is exactly why we continue to need a handshake line. Don't get rid of them. They're good things and were created for a reason. Enforce stiff penalties for starting conflicts.
I don't think anybody has mentioned this detail, maybe I missed it...
Gard said "one of the refs told me that if I called a timeout, the backcourt violation clock would reset to 10."
That struck me as pretty strange - a ref, apparently annoyed by Howard's full court press, giving advice to a coach on how to deal with it.
Gard said "one of the refs told me that if I called a timeout, the backcourt violation clock would reset to 10."
That struck me as pretty strange - a ref, apparently annoyed by Howard's full court press, giving advice to a coach on how to deal with it.
I think Howard and Gard should stage a celebrity boxing match to raise money for charity.
Reminds of the rule that if there's a deflection and the ball goes out of bounds, the ten second clock also resets. At least it used to, might have changed. Which means that, even if unlikely, a team could have a 30 second shot clock violation without a 10 second.
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