You are extrapolating (incorrectly), and putting words in my mouth (I specifically said, "I wouldn't expect Moore to be a star"). I stand by my point that NU is in really good place with a 1,2,3 combo of Moore, BMac, and Law.
End of story.
Moore to visit NU
- Thread starter CoralSpringsCat
- Start date
You are extrapolating (incorrectly), and putting words in my mouth (I specifically said, "I wouldn't expect Moore to be a star"). I stand by my point that NU is in really good place with a 1,2,3 combo of Moore, BMac, and Law.
End of story.
Actually, most of them were freshman starters for elite teams. If Ryan Boatright is your poster child for what we can expect, then I'd take him 10,000 times, especially if it comes with a national championship. I mean if you can't add talent that would start at UCONN as a freshman, I don't know why you wouldn't think that person wouldn't have immediate impact at NU.
You're joking that you have never heard of Boatnight, right?
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Nope - never heard of him. Still not the point. So all these guys contributed SIGNIFICANTLY their first year out of high school? If you say so, I will happily concede. And I have never heard of Boatwright - I don't follow HS bball and don't strongly follow individuals in the NCAA outside NU and the B1G, to a lesser extent. And go ahead and throw my credibility out there again. My response - Vassar. And if we land someone, I was the first to suggest a medical for Tap or no 5th year for Lump. Never claimed to have inside info. But I think I know enough about the game and am strong enough in bball knowledge plus a little logic to qualify to render opinions on a message board. If it makes you feel better, Rivals does not pay me big money for them...yet
Nope - never heard of him. Still not the point. So all these guys contributed SIGNIFICANTLY their first year out of high school? If you say so, I will happily concede. And I have never heard of Boatwright - I don't follow HS bball and don't strongly follow individuals in the NCAA outside NU and the B1G, to a lesser extent. And go ahead and throw my credibility out there again. My response - Vassar. And if we land someone, I was the first to suggest a medical for Tap or no 5th year for Lump. Never claimed to have inside info. But I think I know enough about the game and am strong enough in bball knowledge plus a little logic to qualify to render opinions on a message board. If it makes you feel better, Rivals does not pay me big money for them...yet
Boatright was a big part of the story for UCONN's national championship run. If you watched the Final 4 and the national championship game his junior season, you'd know him. He was all-conference, on the Naismith shortlist, and a four year starter at UCONN. In other words, if any of our recruits project to be Ryan Boatright - sign their ass up, and make room by booting the 5th years! And yes, the Players of the Years from Illinois have almost all started as freshmen with elite teams and gone on to have great college careers, if not make it to the League. There were 3 exceptions, which were pointed out, including one who was in a car accident that messed him up (Ronnie Fields), but otherwise was projected to follow his teammate straight to the pro's.
No one is questioning your qualifications to post an opinion on the message boards. Or if they are, they should stfu. The qualifications for posting an opinion on a message board is -- wait for it -- ZERO. 99% of the posters on the board are equally qualified. In other words, they don't know what the F they are talking about, including yours truly. There are some who feel like they know something, but the only difference between them and the rest of us is that they are full of themselves. You can post whatever the eff you want, but whether you sound intelligent doing so or whether anyone agrees with you (or whether any of that is important) is another story. Continue to post on, and F the haters.
Nope - never heard of him. Still not the point. So all these guys contributed SIGNIFICANTLY their first year out of high school? If you say so, I will happily concede. And I have never heard of Boatwright - I don't follow HS bball and don't strongly follow individuals in the NCAA outside NU and the B1G, to a lesser extent. And go ahead and throw my credibility out there again. My response - Vassar. And if we land someone, I was the first to suggest a medical for Tap or no 5th year for Lump. Never claimed to have inside info. But I think I know enough about the game and am strong enough in bball knowledge plus a little logic to qualify to render opinions on a message board. If it makes you feel better, Rivals does not pay me big money for them...yet
Since when is the criterion that every Illinois PoY must contribute "SIGNIFICANTLY" right out of H.S.? You are wasting my time--all of ours really.
How can you "suggest a medical for Tap"? He has to have a legitimate injury; we don't use medical retirements like other places and I'm glad. I don't think you're due for any "credit" for suggesting that, either. If anything, your words reek of unjustified smugness and of contempt for our players, as if they're just pawns on somebody's chess board. Oh, yeah, let's "retire" so-and-so and not invite back what's-his-name! Pat yourself on the back? I think not.
How can you be "strong enough in bball knowledge" but not know former Illinois Players of the Year and not know the kinds of contributions they made subsequent to H.S., especially a high-profile guy like Boatright on a very recent national champion?
If you think you're "strong enough," I urge you to get back to the bench press! Immediately!
What criterion? I have said take Moore every single day and twice on Sunday. My original message has been so changed. I said I don't think counting on a true freshman - IL POY or not - is a good idea. If the frosh comes in and lights up the world, great! But it is more likely not to be the case. Every year, we talk about the next great freshman to come save the program. I was throwing water on the usual parade and the backlash has grown out of control. I want Moore here - at the expense of any of the suggested scholarship holders.
I can suggest Tap could be a medical out on this MESSAGE BOARD based upon my experience and observations. Tap has had recurring foot problems. Tall guys often struggle to overcome them. It is reasonable to believe that Tap (no pro potential, IMHO) chooses to retire and forego the regular pain he endures to elongate his career. This is my SPECULATION. I would suggest that it is logically deduced and apparently a few around here agree. It's irrelevant if no one joins the Cats for 2016. But if someone does, that schollie MUST COME FROM SOMEWHERE!
I'm quite content with the amount of time I commit to the various sports I enjoy. So thank you, but I won't be following the super sectionals this year - if that's what they are called - and they are probably over. And I don't immerse myself in the final four. I watched Nova win without sound among friends while enjoying their company more than the game. My Cats were not playing and I only had a financial interest in the outcome - not the players. As we ramp up for the NBA draft, I will start researching to learn some of the names and talents. I don't recall Boatright during any of these efforts for previous drafts and no idea who he plays for.
If Ecat says almost all IL POY significantly contributed to their teams one year out of HS (even those jumping to the pros - I don't remember NBA Rookie of the Year Miles, but who knows...), then ok. My belief is wrong. All should hail each IL POY true frosh as the next potential savior of the program and if we land Moore, let's start talking about the Final Four in 2016. Tell you what - I have an offer, I'll treat*.
* - But if they don't make the Final Four next year, who will take me to a NU game and listen to me talk basketball for a night?
btw Yesterday, how do you feel about the Vassar, Abrahamson. Ajou. Libermann scenarios? There is a better than fair chance that these kids were "run" out of the program before their 5 years were up. I know - proof. None of us have it either way (wait for it - the onslaught of posts about transfers, NU sports department press releases, etc is about to come - but no one can say definitively whether these kids were asked to move on - none of you were there) and you can choose to stick your head in the sand and assume these things just don't happen at NU. Because if they did, CCC would reign supreme in smugness and looking at players as pawns by your definition. Boy, you better hope nobody adds on for 2016, because in that case, you might not like where the scholarship came from. Will that turn you into yesterday's fan?
I guess, in the end, yesterday really hopes NU does not land Moore. He prefers Tap, Lump, whatever. And you challenge my loyalty? A team with Moore minus any of them is far better than the alternative. Cheerio.
Abrahamson was very open about why he transferred. Notice he's no longer at Drake either? Cleary, he has an ideal situation he's searching for and hasn't found yet.
Ajou and Libermann (a walkon)!? Seriously? You're grasping at straws...
Agree. And Ajou and Liberman also transferred a second time in addition to leaving NU. "Looking for love in all the wrong places...."
btw Yesterday, how do you feel about the Vassar, Abrahamson. Ajou. Libermann scenarios? There is a better than fair chance that these kids were "run" out of the program before their 5 years were up. I know - proof. None of us have it either way (wait for it - the onslaught of posts about transfers, NU sports department press releases, etc is about to come - but no one can say definitively whether these kids were asked to move on - none of you were there) and you can choose to stick your head in the sand and assume these things just don't happen at NU. Because if they did, CCC would reign supreme in smugness and looking at players as pawns by your definition. Boy, you better hope nobody adds on for 2016, because in that case, you might not like where the scholarship came from. Will that turn you into yesterday's fan?
I guess, in the end, yesterday really hopes NU does not land Moore. He prefers Tap, Lump, whatever. And you challenge my loyalty? A team with Moore minus any of them is far better than the alternative. Cheerio.
Run off is a strong word. I think Turner is probably the only kid who was really run off.
Vassar was probably told straight up what his role was expected to be at NU. Limited. Or at least far less than what he was hoping for. Same with Kale, Ajou, and probably Lieberman too - though I suspect there may have been some lines drawn around playing or practicing on Saturdays. But, really, why would you need to run off a walk-on? They didn't like what they heard and left on their own accord. Is that being run off? Taphorn was probably told the same thing, but he decided to stay.
I'm in agreement here. I find it highly unlikely Collins is trying to force kids out of the program. What it seems to me is happening is Collins sits down with a player and tells them what he expects from them and how much playing time they will get/what their role will be. Certain players have been fine coming off the bench and attempting to eventually earn playing time through strong play. Some players were comfortable with having this kind of role (Taphorn, Ash, Skelly) while others wanted to get more significant action. I'm happy Collins was straightforward with the kids rather than stringing them along, Kale, Ajou, Turner etc. are probably all much happier at programs where they have a better chance to play a lot and be a featured player on the team. I don't know what the situation with Vassar is, but Ash didn't play much more than Vassar did this season and doesn't look like he was much farther ahead than Vassar was after one year of play.
Those are essentially the same things. You don't sit a player down and tell him that, going forward, he can expect little to no playing time unless you want that player to leave.
Or if you're just being brutally honest and fair with a kid. If the kid really wants to play basketball, but realistically has no chance under the circumstances, isn't it doing the kid a favor to tell him "we're honoring your scholarship but realistically your playing time will be limited to mop up duty"? Probably most kids who believe they deserve more playing time would try to look elsewhere. That obviously hasn't been the case with Vassar for whatever reason, and he seems content to just ride out the scholarship. Maybe he's into music (like Custis or Alexander Webb) or something similar and is okay to walk away from basketball.
This is wrongheaded.
If a player comes into the program with the perception that he'll have a certain role and then, after a handful of months practicing and playing, the coach realizes he's not suited for that role, the coach has a responsibility to communicate that. That is far better than leaving the kid ignorant to the fact that he'll never play and not understanding why.
There are plenty of kids that get that message, transfer schools and do better than they would have at their first school. Um, Larry Bird started at Indiana. He didn't want to change his game for Knight so he quit school and walked behind a garbage truck until Indiana State talked him back onto the court.
Of course it is. But there's also a strong motivation for the coach to get unsuitable players off the team and free up scholarships for better ones, because the coach is paid to win basketball games and he has a limited number of scholarships with which to do so. It happens all the time, everywhere.
1. I agree with all of you that these guys could possibly be happier. But no one knows exactly how they left. Thing is, if we get another 2016 player, something will happen. It has to. That simple. I guess, for those of you that have taken such pains to defend everything by the program and persecute every kid no longer dribbling a ball for NU, you will have to justify which ever schollie is utilized. I really, really hope we land Moore. I would like to see us get both Moore and Barry. Mostly, because I believe the team will improve and have higher potential than any point in my lifetime. Selfishly, because I look forward to revisiting many of these threads and posts in the new Rivals system of archives
2. CAC - That is the fact that led me to deduce Ash could be the short straw. I doubt any would entertain the discussion - but if we assume Tap cannot be hardshipped, would you rather see Ash 'encouraged' to move after a frank discussion of future opportunity or Lump cut short a year? Assume Moore is in the fold and just needs a schollie. Also - don't give me the Vassar crap - the schollie is locked down and no longer under the school's control unless they command Vassar to rejoin the team and he declines.
Absolutely - see the Vassar schollie
And Lump and Tap, and any other would have choices too. Tap could stay on schollie. Lump could politely decline and if forced, make a messy departure. Everyone has choices.
Great. So you can stop saying guys like Abrahamson, Ajou, and Libermann were "run out" of the program.
Absolutely - see the Vassar schollie
And Lump and Tap, and any other would have choices too. Tap could stay on schollie. Lump could politely decline and if forced, make a messy departure. Everyone has choices.
Let me help you with the context Virgina.
And run out is subjective. You choose to feel otherwise. I believe they were run out. Thing is, I'm not saying it was a bad thing. I think the Vassar matter was terribly managed and resulted in egg on face. I never really thought much of Kale and definitely think his schollie has been much better used. I would have liked to see one of the big men stick around - even as a project. We will have to agree to disagree there - just my two cents.
But I have no problem running off guys that wouldn't fit the new system in order to get new guys in. If the schollies went unused, I would take issue. Not the case - definitely was for the betterment of the program and within the scope of the rules. I also think Lump should have been told long ago, he stays unless someone much better comes around. Moore is much better, Barry arguably is much better for this team based on the depth chart. Reasonable minds could differ here. I also think CCC has made his decision on the value of Ash and, to use Va's approach, should be offered a frank explanation of his opportunities here in the event that he might want to consider the other options available to him - was that PC enough for you Va?
Why would a Lumpkin departure, necessarily be messy. He would leave with a degree from NU and an option to play elsewhere and receive a post grad degree. The kid who is really messing this up is Vassar, who is sticking it to his former teammates by not playing basketball while tying up a basketball schlorship, that could be used to help them win. He doesn't seem to understand that there is no i in team and doesn't seem to care about it.Absolutely - see the Vassar schollie
And Lump and Tap, and any other would have choices too. Tap could stay on schollie. Lump could politely decline and if forced, make a messy departure. Everyone has choices.
Yes, now that we have four-year guaranteed scholarships. Before, the coach just wouldn't renew the scholarship and that would be that.
Not saying it would. Virginia emphasized choices. Coaches could always ask Lump to graciously except that he won't get the fifth year and he could choose to make it messy. That would be the only choice he would have. I'm just trying to appease Virginia.
All he has to do is show the kid the depth chart at his position and ask him where he feels he fits. (showing him guys already there and guys coming in or being recruited) If the kid has an over estimation of his worth, the conversation takes longer. Then he asks what amount of playing time he thinks that he, the third (or fourth) guy on the depth chart for a position is likely to get. (answer, about 2 minutes per game or less) and then ask if the kid is happy with that with the understanding of how much hard work was going to still be required in practice (for basically no playing time). If the kid is OK with it, he stays but if not he will be assisted in finding a new home. Most of these kids are highly competitive and won't want to hear that and will feel they are better off finding a new home where have a better opportunity.
By the time this conversation takes place it is likely there have been several others. There might be the occasional kid that this heart to heart will light a fire under and who will work his butt off to get better and earns himself more minutes. That is OK as well.
I feel Ash is less decided than you think. The staff infection set him back. Have to feel that he knows he has to work hard. Collins will likely have more patience with him also as he is a Chicago area kid and you do not want to poison the waters around here.
If that is being "run off" then I hope Collins continues to run off kids by telling them straight up where they sit in the program. I have no problem with honesty, and in fact it's the only way to go. To string them along and tell them something different is not only bad for the program, but unfair to the kid.
There is a massive difference between a coach telling a kid "you no longer can be a part of the program, start looking at other options, I will support you but we need your scholarship" and "here's the deal, the role that we both expected you to have doesn't look like it's going to materialize any time soon, because of A, B, and C. As of now, you're behind X, Y, Z and your time should be expected to limited. While we would welcome you to stay and earn a greater role on the team, it's only fair that you know where you stand and what the challenges are, and if you should choose to go elsewhere for more playing time, we will be supportive."
I don't believe for a second that the first conversation was had with anyone on the team except Turner, and even then it probably was closer to the second (where Collins told him, we want you to play big or you won't play at all." The rest of them got the truth - which is the only fair thing, and they made a decision that they didn't like it.
Thanks for the assist. I know it's slow on the board in the spring, but these arguments about supposedly running off walk-ons are tiresome!
We don't really know what was said, but I don't know why it matters, either. Coach told them the truth and they wanted out after that. They could have stayed but they left. If the truth is "We need your scholarship" that's the truth and so is "We can't force you to leave."
Now, whether or not I agree there is a "massive difference" or not, I think we do know that these conversations are designed to encourage a kid to rededicate or leave. Maybe you'll never see the floor but you can be the best practice player in school history and continue to receive a full ride for four years. It could be worse.
