This is probably the most accurate statement in this thread. You sir, have played, and you know. Many here have not, and don't. If you're on a team, and you're a shitter, your teammates will, in one way or another, adjust your attitude.
New Daily Herald article on Fitz
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Yeah … most of us have been here long enough to remember when Jim O’Donnell was widely regarded as a buffoon.
The information was already out by the time he was hired, that’s sort of what the problem was. And yes, they never had to and shouldn’t have hired him in the first place given the cheerleader allegations that were known. Thanks to Phillips, Morty, and Pat Ryan for that debacle.
I suppose it’s time to give Braun a ten year $50MM extension cuz he may not win but he runs the cleanest program that encourages the HC to remains eyes tight shut.
Enough to stop it and justify $5MM/yr. His on field results didn’t justify it.
are there not multiple lawsuits from multiple players with the same allegations?
Got kids? Or grandkids? Wanna send them in for some horseplay? All just good fun
PF is the ultimate Alpha male. And those plaintiffs are alpha males. And I, for one, want discovery (to be leaked) and a public trial. I hope those alpha males want their day in court. So that we will have answers to these very curious questions.
On-field results are not evidence that he knew about hazing.
If it's about on-field performance, then buy out his contract.
Don't stab people in the back.
The school and the state define hazing so that’s not something needing clarity.
5 million reasons to know each season because wins weren’t the priority, Clean program was
They do and it is extremely broad. It would cover forced skits (Hard Knocks shows this every year) that falls under the definition of hazing. Pretty much forcing someone to do something they would rather not do is considered hazing. There are degrees to this which is why the word hazing doesn’t mean anything.
Forcing someone to sing the fight song in front of the team is hazing (but not troubling in my book). Forcing someone to participate in activities while naked, also hazing (and very troubling). Got it?
Which is why the alpha males will struggle to settle. PF settles and folks will say the school paid to silence and he’s guilty. He a major alpha, only way to clear his name is a trial of admission by the school.
I have played, not at college. I have play college D1 scholarship in three different sports. And I think your take is wrong.
The fraternity hazing was worse than any sport hazing. In sports, my lasting memories are having each others back for better or worse - run through walls, sun rises in the west, we are one loyalty.
I was never a revenue sport scholarship athlete at a major school, but even in rugby world, that hazing was more physical brute violence than sexual weirdness.
Welcome back Bob. Just get back from a scuba trip?
So, let me ask you a question Bob. What would you have done if your teammates ( think the biggest badest people around) bounced their junk off your cheekbones? You are a tough guy, doubting you submit to this without fighting to the death. Now, do you think there would be ANY of your teammates in these three D1 squads that would have allowed this to happen to them without that same fight?
You said hazing was much worse in the frats and I agree. My experience is there wasn’t a single guy I knew in my 4 years in college Athletics that would have allowed that to happen. I knew some very docile athletes to boot, hardly “Alpha” types like most football players. Not happening.
The horror, someone questions the stories for validity before condemning a man.
Your use of ‘alpha’ is pretty cringe, first of all. Secondly, even if the entire football team is full of ‘alphas’ as you proclaim, there will be those on the team who are comparatively less ‘alpha’ than others on the team, even if they are more ‘alpha’ when compared to the general population.
You know who else would be considered ‘alpha’ under your definition? Violent criminals. Yet, violent criminals get violated in prison all the time by other criminals more psychopathic than they are.
As it is nearly impossible to keep up with all posts here, please say what your position is. I don't mean fire Gagg and Shill. People on both sides if the issue agree that they shat the bed. I mean 1. They were hazed but it is harmless? 2. It didn’t happen? 3.Joe oops Fitz didn't know? 4. They are lying? 5. Something else?
If it’s overly broad, then the remedy is attacking the law or rule not breaking it. PF did not have to work in IL nor NU but in choosing to do so he is bound by their existing definitions of hazing.
I’m not sure what point you are making. Hazing goes on everywhere (including televised on Hard Knocks). A better term is required (maybe malicious hazing?) to describe what was alleged in daily article
Regarding the State of Illinois and the definition of hazing...
It is broad, but it requires bodily harm. Not mental. Not emotional. BODILY harm.
It is broad, but it requires bodily harm. Not mental. Not emotional. BODILY harm.
(720 ILCS 5/12C-50) Sec. 12C-50. Hazing. (a) A person commits hazing when he or she knowingly requires the performance of any act by a student or other person in a school, college, university, or other educational institution of this State, for the purpose of induction or admission into any group, organization, or society associated or connected with that institution, if: (1) the act is not sanctioned or authorized by that educational institution; and (2) the act results in bodily harm to any person. |
Interesting question. (No scuba - leave for three weeks in Asia soon though). I think the answer is different for 50 yr old Bob compared 18-21 yr old Bob, especially freshman Bob.
If I wanted to be part of this team, a chance to fall in line with upperclassmen, not sure I wouldn’t have submitted. If this was a right of passage and happening uniformly to the rest of the incoming class…
Pretty sure if I felt isolated, I would have become combative and or left the program. But if I felt part of the team, that I might be a regular player, I’m getting a full ride (and whatever someone is whispering in my ear like my pledge father did during rush), I can’t say I would lash out.
Maybe you can. Maybe I would. But I honestly am not sure.
Doesn’t matter of it goes on everywhere. If it’s against the law, against the school rules then it is what it is. There’s no exceptions - not in the jurisprudence, not in the code. So let’s stop with the ‘not really bad hazing’ routine.
As the $5MM/yr employee to run a clean program, it was PF’s major responsibility to ensure HIS program that HE oversaw did not run afoul of the law or the school rules.
Again, if you think the law / rule is bad, the remedy for you or PF would be to work to change it or go work somewhere else. Breaking the rule and then saying it’s a bad rule is a losing position.
Ok - so it would seem no law was broken. What’s the university definition?
IGNORE2:
I just put that definition up to make it clear that in Illinois what (allegedly) happened at NU was not criminal hazing.
The university has an incredibly broad definition. When I first read it, my reaction was...
1) Well this is ridiculous - obviously targeting the fraternities.
2) I can see why the fraternities either disbanded or moved off campus.
3) It gives the university enormous leeway in punishing students for casual misbehavior (like being mean to someone) if it occurs in a club or group meeting or activity.
4) It doesn't apply to varsity athletic teams because the players don't control who is on the team.
5) It is so broad that it probably wouldn't be enforceable in a court of law.
Here's the definition... I added the bold font to some of the text.
Hazing is defined as any action taken or situation created, intentionally or unintentionally, whether on or off University premises and whether presented as optional or required, to produce: mental, physical, or emotional discomfort; servitude; degradation; embarrassment; harassment; or ridicule for the purpose of initiation into, affiliation with, or admission to, or as a condition for continued membership in a group, team, or other organization, regardless of an individual’s willingness to participate.
Eh. Don’t know about this. Teddy was particularly harsh at least social media on Fitz and part of the misguided rush to judgement.
The proper approach is negotiate w school to change rule in contract negotiations or abide by the rules. 5 million reasons to abide by the rules
Teddy G is no longer reliant on the NU athletic department as a source, so he doesn’t have to be such a toady. I think he left the Trib to cover gambling ~2 years ago.
Ok, so requiring freshman to sing the fight song is a fireable offense? It meets Illinois definition. Sounds reasonable…..
Don’t be silly. In fact, I said in a previous post that this isn’t like a prison. It’s a stupid comparison meant to discredit my question to others that have been in a D1 locker room if they felt it was at all likely this situation of junk bouncing could have happened year after year. My experience says no way no how! Fighting back in a football locker is in no way shape or form the same as it is in a prison with violent criminals and you know that. Again, my question is, do people believe players were restrained by other players and sexually violated due to some type of sick tradition that players carried on year and year?
Read post #55. I am not reiterating a position that I have stated for 90 days or so now.
Your general position is that running — Purge masks, darkened shower area, veteran player d*cks hitting multiple parts of inexperienced player bodies — couldn’t possibly have happened.
No tough football player in a new environment on a new campus among new veterans at a new level of completion would ever let d*cks swing at their face, regardless of what multiple former players have said in lawsuits.
By holding this opinion, you are basically declaring every source that has done original reporting — ESPN, The Athletic, and that’s about it — to have inadequate fact checking capabilities and to have relied on a series of conspiratorially dishonest sources.
It’s fine that your choosing this belief, but there’s a minuscule chance that the facts of the situation bear this out.
Aside:
In looking back at the ‘may have erred’ release and the firing release (the two-week suspension release has been removed from NU’s site), it’s interesting that the word ‘sexualized’ or ‘degrading’ didn’t appear until the firing.
I wonder if Schill didn’t know or if they tried to bury that salient detail. (Removing those words certainly led to the ‘nothing to see here’ response to many on the board. ‘Probably some skits, have a great weekend!’)
If you, or PF, don’t like the rule, change the rule. PF voluntarily accepted a very high paying contract to uphold the rules of the university. Nobody made him do it. He could have walked away, picked a school or organization w a more palatable rule, tried to use his leverage in negotiations to change the rule.
Cannot take the money, sign the deal and say rule shouldn’t apply.
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