Point Guards

[mikewebb68]

IGNORE has inspired me to conduct an exercise regarding the depth of the point guard position on other teams, similar to Haywood recent exercise on Collins alleged overuse of players, which effectively rebutted that argument. But, unlike Heywood who has forgotten more about baketball than I know (and probably knew ahead of time that the data would proved that Collins was indeed not overusing players), I honestly don't know much about PG play and recruiting on individual teams, so this exercise may serve to validate IGNORE's point, refute it, or be inconclusive. At any rate, I think it will be an interesting exercise, which commenced with the Ohio State-Michigan State I watched today, as follows:

Ohio St. ais a guard-heavy lineup; per reports, they actually like to run a three-"lead guard" offense with no true point guard, but it appeared to me today that C.J. Jackson was the primary ball handler. He played 28 minutes. There is no backup PG, and when C.J. isn't in there, they look much like us on offense, with combo guys but no promary ball handlers. MSU appear to exploit that today (among other defciencies) and they ended up with only 44 points, 9 assists and 15 turnovers. Knowing that C.J. is a senior, and with no current, they did pick up a transfer in April from Florida State in April, but it cost them a schollie this year, and it remains to be seen whether that transfer will remain with OSU after they recruited 5-star PG D.J. Carton to run the offense next year.

Michigan St.: Cassius Winston, MSU's best player, runs the show here, and he played 33 minutes today. But there have been concerns throughout the season about overuse; and he did look like he was felling the effects of a long season today, going 3-15 from the field in a game that was otherwise a blowout. He did have 8 assists and only 3 TOs, though. His backup, a Freshman named Foster Loyer hardly plays at all and today he looked like a player who, well, hardly plays at all. Unlike OSU, an injury to Cassius would likely completely sink MSU's offense, as their #2 guard, Josh Langford, who probably would have played point over Loyer if anything happened to Cassius, hurt his foot and is out for the season. Cassius is a Junior and not considered an NBA prospect, so he will be back, which may explain he lack of a PG in the 2019 recruiting class, though they have a combo guard who has committed.

 

[IGNORE]

While I’m inspired by your desire to change my point, I will try once again to say in small words with hope that you will get it.

I feel that the roster, at a minimum, should always have two legit ballhandling guards ready to play. PG, LG, SG - I’m not caught up in the label. But two backcourt, ballhandling, legit B1G players.

Seems the dance is always about guard play. Really looking forward to watching and commentating here for mike.

 

[haywood jahblowme]

While I’m inspired by your desire to change my point, I will try once again to say in small words with hope that you will get it.

I feel that the roster, at a minimum, should always have two legit ballhandling guards ready to play. PG, LG, SG - I’m not caught up in the label. But two backcourt, ballhandling, legit B1G players.

Seems the dance is always about guard play. Really looking forward to watching and commentating here for mike.

this wasn't an issue with bmac. because he was a 30 min a game ball handler. it wasn't an issue with thompson because he was a 30 min a game ball handler. it won't be an issue next year because buie will be a 30 min a game ball handler (and possibly a 5th year)

its an issue this year because lathon the 30 min a game ball handler was revoked 3 months before the season and ash (who is an average ball handling guard was medically scratched)

 

[IGNORE]

this wasn't an issue with bmac. because he was a 30 min a game ball handler. it wasn't an issue with thompson because he was a 30 min a game ball handler. it won't be an issue next year because buie will be a 30 min a game ball handler (and possibly a 5th year)

its an issue this year because lathon the 30 min a game ball handler was revoked 3 months before the season and ash (who is an average ball handling guard was medically scratched)

Unless:
1. Buie is not ready
2. Buie gets hurt
3. Buie doesn’t end up on campus
4. Buie is a bust

Once again, all the eggs in the unknown true freshman basket. And if something goes wrong, then it’s anything but CCCs fault.

Seems like I have seen this movie.

 

[freewillie07]

this wasn't an issue with bmac. because he was a 30 min a game ball handler. it wasn't an issue with thompson because he was a 30 min a game ball handler. it won't be an issue next year because buie will be a 30 min a game ball handler (and possibly a 5th year)

its an issue this year because lathon the 30 min a game ball handler was revoked 3 months before the season and ash (who is an average ball handling guard was medically scratched)

Coming from you, this is a ringing endorsement of Buie and I’m somewhat surprised. I honestly expected it to be fairly even between freshman Buie and sophomore Greer.

 

[mikewebb68]

Unless:
1. Buie is not ready
2. Buie gets hurt
3. Buie doesn’t end up on campus
4. Buie is a bust

Once again, all the eggs in the unknown true freshman basket. And if something goes wrong, then it’s anything but CCCs fault.

Seems like I have seen this movie.

Uh, Geeer, with a second season under his belt?

 

[mikewebb68]

While I’m inspired by your desire to change my point, I will try once again to say in small words with hope that you will get it.

I feel that the roster, at a minimum, should always have two legit ballhandling guards ready to play. PG, LG, SG - I’m not caught up in the label. But two backcourt, ballhandling, legit B1G players.

Seems the dance is always about guard play. Really looking forward to watching and commentating here for mike.

OK, I,ve watched two teams ao far MIchigan St. by your defknition, does not have two ballhandling guards, and they are a top-10 team! Ohio St. does, but they llay a three guard lineup so, by defjnition, thety'd better!

Will continue my research despite the fact that it appears that Haywood aleady owned you on this (for rthe second time in a row, if you were the person who made the ooint about the CC playing time issues which Haywood crushed you on, if my recollection is correct...)

 

[NJCat]

OK, I,ve watched two teams ao far MIchigan St. by your defknition, does not have two ballhandling guards, and they are a top-10 team! Ohio St. does, but they llay a three guard lineup so, by defjnition, thety'd better!

Will continue my research despite the fact that it appears that Haywood aleady owned you on this (for rthe second time in a row, if you were the person who made the ooint about the CC playing time issues which Haywood crushed you on, if my recollection is correct...)

I watched the Minny-IU game Saturday (because I like to see Archie's face get when his team gets spanked), and the announces referred several times to the fact that Minny has no true PG. Is this the case? If so, they seem to do OK without a traditional PG.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

While I’m inspired by your desire to change my point, I will try once again to say in small words with hope that you will get it.

I feel that the roster, at a minimum, should always have two legit ballhandling guards ready to play. PG, LG, SG - I’m not caught up in the label. But two backcourt, ballhandling, legit B1G players.

Seems the dance is always about guard play. Really looking forward to watching and commentating here for mike.

Can’t wait for the back and forth between you and Mike all of March on the ball handling guard issue. What is the over/under on posts by you two on this topic by March 31st? 250?

 

[NJCat]

Can’t wait for the back and forth between you and Mike all of March on the ball handling guard issue. What is the over/under on posts by you two on this topic by March 31st? 250?

I'll take the Over.

 

[IGNORE]

Uh, Geeer, with a second season under his belt?

Uh, Greer season one?

For every example of a player advancing between freshman and sophomore year under CCC, I can give you an Ash, Vassar, Brown, etc. There is nothing to guarantee the Greer will be any more reliable next.

I think our own board guru, haywood, has opined that Greer is not likely to be the answer.

I would still redshirt Greer if ever given the chance and let him get an extra year of development since he was snatched up too early. Probably won't happen and it's likely that he won't ever become a major contributor (ie - starter by performance v starter due to lack of options).

 

[IGNORE]

OK, I,ve watched two teams ao far MIchigan St. by your defknition, does not have two ballhandling guards, and they are a top-10 team! Ohio St. does, but they llay a three guard lineup so, by defjnition, thety'd better!

Will continue my research despite the fact that it appears that Haywood aleady owned you on this (for rthe second time in a row, if you were the person who made the ooint about the CC playing time issues which Haywood crushed you on, if my recollection is correct...)

We will have to disagree. OSU definitely has multiple ballhandling guard options. I would argue that MSU does and went into the season with two very strong ones. The fact one went down with injury supports my contention that you must have multiple.

But I will sit on my hands until the Dance and then we will talk about what the teams that achieved the right to play are made of.

 

[IGNORE]

I watched the Minny-IU game Saturday (because I like to see Archie's face get when his team gets spanked), and the announces referred several times to the fact that Minny has no true PG. Is this the case? If so, they seem to do OK without a traditional PG.

I'm not saying it cannot happen. The Bulls are the easiest example. But I feel they are outliers.

Guards rule in the dance. Almost every successful dancing team has strong guard play. Guys that handle the ball and drive or distribute or both. We have a nicely developing Gaines - who can drive, not dish. Turner, Taylor - probably wings, but regardless they cannot take the ball to the rim, they cannot pass out spectacular dimes with their strong court vision.

Let the Dance begin. I cannot wait this year.

 

[NJCat]

I would still redshirt Greer if ever given the chance and let him get an extra year of development since he was snatched up too early. .

So you'd be happy to again have at most 12 scholarship players eligible to play? /s

One more year of maturity isn't going to matter in Greer's case, is it? He isn't going to turn into the second coming of BMac......

 

[NJCat]

I'm not saying it cannot happen. The Bulls are the easiest example. But I feel they are outliers.

Guards rule in the dance. Almost every successful dancing team has strong guard play. Guys that handle the ball and drive or distribute or both. We have a nicely developing Gaines - who can drive, not dish. Turner, Taylor - probably wings, but regardless they cannot take the ball to the rim, they cannot pass out spectacular dimes with their strong court vision.

Let the Dance begin. I cannot wait this year.

I agree Guards are the key in college ball. With decent Guards you have a chance (see Loyola c. 2017-18). Without 'em you're dead (see NU c. 2018-19).

 

[mikewebb68]

We will have to disagree. OSU definitely has multiple ballhandling guard options. I would argue that MSU does and went into the season with two very strong ones. The fact one went down with injury supports my contention that you must have multiple.

But I will sit on my hands until the Dance and then we will talk about what the teams that achieved the right to play are made of.

We don't have to disagree. Just tell me who the other ball handling opfion at MSU is. Keep in mind though, we have to be consistent, so if you come back with someone that handles tge ball like, say, Gaines, then Gaines counts as a ballhandler for us. Amd yes, OSU plays three guards, score one for you, they have to have a ballhandler. But they do suffer down low at times by llaying three guards, so there is a tradeoff..

 

[IGNORE]

So you'd be happy to again have at most 12 scholarship players eligible to play? /s

One more year of maturity isn't going to matter in Greer's case, is it? He isn't going to turn into the second coming of BMac......

A productive use of the 12th and 13th schollies with redshirts that can be burned in an instance sounds great to me. Ideally, we run 8-9 man rotation. So 10-13 are clean up minutes or redshirt opportunities until someone gets hurt, or mono, or whatever.

And one more year of practice, training room, training table - could make a difference. I do not huge leap, but better than without.

 

[mikewebb68]

Uh, Greer season one?

For every example of a player advancing between freshman and sophomore year under CCC, I can give you an Ash, Vassar, Brown, etc. There is nothing to guarantee the Greer will be any more reliable next.

I think our own board guru, haywood, has opined that Greer is not likely to be the answer.

I would still redshirt Greer if ever given the chance and let him get an extra year of development since he was snatched up too early. Probably won't happen and it's likely that he won't ever become a major contributor (ie - starter by performance v starter due to lack of options).

So Greer can't be a backup PG next year? That was the issue being discussed. Haywood did not state he would be the starter.

 

[mikewebb68]

I'll take the Over.

Or I can just let Haywood own him, if that would be more fun...

 

[IGNORE]

We don't have to disagree. Just tell me who the other ball handling opfion at MSU is. Keep in mind though, we have to be consistent, so if you come back with someone that handles tge ball like, say, Gaines, then Gaines counts as a ballhandler for us. Amd yes, OSU plays three guards, score one for you, they have to have a ballhandler. But they do suffer down low at times by llaying three guards, so there is a tradeoff..

I'm not going to waste much more time on OSU and MSU. We can start a whole thread during the dance and I will post pre-dance, during games, etc. Flood you with examples that I expect to see.

I believe that both MSU and OSU began the season with at least 3 guards that could legit handle the rock against power 5 competition and either take it to the rim w consistency and dish out when appropriate, or create a very good turnover to assist ratio. I believe both teams started this season with at least three guards of this quality.

NU had none. Gaines can drive, sometimes. Turner and Taylor can't do either. Greer - c'mon. Ash - not against power 5 competition, he can defend but offensively irrelevant. Law is not a guard, frankly, neither are Turner nor Taylor. In fact, one could argue 6'5" Gaines is really a wing too in the mold of Scottie Pippen.

But one big reason this team has had and continues to have problems is the failure of CCC to stock the roster with talented guards. Guards that can be trusted with the ball. Not one - not just a BMac, but several.

 

[mikewebb68]

I'm not going to waste much more time on OSU and MSU. We can start a whole thread during the dance and I will post pre-dance, during games, etc. Flood you with examples that I expect to see.

I believe that both MSU and OSU began the season with at least 3 guards that could legit handle the rock against power 5 competition and either take it to the rim w consistency and dish out when appropriate, or create a very good turnover to assist ratio. I believe both teams started this season with at least three guards of this quality.

NU had none. Gaines can drive, sometimes. Turner and Taylor can't do either. Greer - c'mon. Ash - not against power 5 competition, he can defend but offensively irrelevant. Law is not a guard, frankly, neither are Turner nor Taylor. In fact, one could argue 6'5" Gaines is really a wing too in the mold of Scottie Pippen.

But one big reason this team has had and continues to have problems is the failure of CCC to stock the roster with talented guards. Guards that can be trusted with the ball. Not one - not just a BMac, but several.

Well, just like Haywood with the player usage minutes, I am going to continue my posts if I have time, because I am genuinely curious as to whether your theory is correct that one can easily recruit PGs, or ballhandlers, or whatever you want to call them, to ride the pine . So who are those three beginning of season names you have for MSU? Can you even give me those since you say there are three? Or can you even provide a definitikn of "ball handler"?

 

[CappyNU]

I watched the Minny-IU game Saturday (because I like to see Archie's face get when his team gets spanked), and the announces referred several times to the fact that Minny has no true PG. Is this the case? If so, they seem to do OK without a traditional PG.

Minny is in a similar situation to us, where they have a soph PG but he can't shoot and turns the ball over too much, so he only plays 15-20 minutes per game. In his place they use SG McBrayer or SF Coffey as PG so that they can keep their frosh sharpshooter Kalscheur on the court.

 

[willycat]

A productive use of the 12th and 13th schollies with redshirts that can be burned in an instance sounds great to me. Ideally, we run 8-9 man rotation. So 10-13 are clean up minutes or redshirt opportunities until someone gets hurt, or mono, or whatever.

And one more year of practice, training room, training table - could make a difference. I do not huge leap, but better than without.

Is Nance expected back this season? If not can he still get a redshirt season?

 

[IGNORE]

Is Nance expected back this season? If not can he still get a redshirt season?

Cannot redshirt. Has played way too much.

 

[IGNORE]

Well, just like Haywood with the player usage minutes, I am going to continue my posts if I have time, because I am genuinely curious as to whether your theory is correct that one can easily recruit PGs, or ballhandlers, or whatever you want to call them, to ride the pine . So who are those three beginning of season names you have for MSU? Can you even give me those since you say there are three? Or can you even provide a definitikn of "ball handler"?

No, you cannot pick apart my definition. No thank you. You can agree with me. But if not, then my definition is how I draw my opinion. And I believe that:

A major failure by CCC that has been part of our problems is the failure to stack the roster with ballhandling guards. By this, I mean a guard that can regularly drive to the rim and either finish or successfully dish, or a guard that produces a very good assist to turnover ratio - type of guy that people will describe as having great court vision.

IMHO, these are ballhandling guards.

Thing is that you are reading both threads and just try to dance between the lines. Time to merge. Here is the definition. Here is my issue with CCCs failure to stock the roster.

 

[mikewebb68]

Thing is that you are reading both threads and just try to dance between the lines. Time to merge. Here is the definition. Here is my issue with CCCs failure to stock the roster.

Not trying to dance around anything, not even trying to win the argument here (frankly after the screename wager blowout loss and the boatracing by Haywood assuming you were on the wrong side of the "Collins overuses his players" issue, I am actually rooting for you!), just want to learn a little bit more about point guard play in basketball (or "ballhandling" guard, or whatever).

I will attempt to use your definition. I can easily use the assist-to-turnover ratio, but the other part is highly subjective, but I would do my best. It would be helpful if you can provide the names of the three players on the MSU roster that fit this definition, but no worries if that is too much trouble for you; just want to make certain I am satisfying your criteria.

 

[IGNORE]

Not trying to dance around anything, not even trying to win the argument here (frankly after the screename wager blowout loss and the boatracing by Haywood assuming you were on the wrong side of the "Collins overuses his players" issue, I am actually rooting for you!), just want to learn a little bit more about point guard play in basketball (or "ballhandling" guard, or whatever).

I will attempt to use your definition. I can easily use the assist-to-turnover ratio, but the other part is highly subjective, but I would do my best. It would be helpful if you can provide the names of the three players on the MSU roster that fit this definition, but no worries if that is too much trouble for you; just want to make certain I am satisfying your criteria.

The guys you mentioned in your write up on the game. Langford is injured - but started the season ready to go.

 

[mikewebb68]

The guys you mentioned in your write up on the game. Langford is injured - but started the season ready to go.

Langford's career assist to turnover ratio is precisely 1 which is terrible, and was even worse this year before he got hurt Who is the other guy besides Cassius?

 

[IGNORE]

Langford's career assist to turnover ratio is precisely 1 which is terrible, and was even worse this year before he got hurt Who is the other guy besides Cassius?

I believe he is in the drive and score or dish category. But, again, I will wait for the dance - the place where good teams go - and provide examples from teams that I am watching. I will pin my correctness on the goal that we have - the NCAA Mens Tourney.

 

[haywood jahblowme]

Unless:
1. Buie is not ready
2. Buie gets hurt
3. Buie doesn’t end up on campus
4. Buie is a bust

Once again, all the eggs in the unknown true freshman basket. And if something goes wrong, then it’s anything but CCCs fault.

Seems like I have seen this movie.

point is we wouldn't have gotten buie if we had lathon. he wouldn't come to sit behind a 30 min a game guy

 

[mikewebb68]

I believe he is in the drive and score or dish category. But, again, I will wait for the dance - the place where good teams go - and provide examples from teams that I am watching. I will pin my correctness on the goal that we have - the NCAA Mens Tourney.

He is 6' 5" and is described as a wing (see link below, one of many). Having seen him play about 10 games, I believe that that is an apt description. As evidenced by his assist-to-turnover ration, ballhandling is NOT a strength of his game; he most certainly has trouble against smaller, quicker guards; fortunately, since Winston plays point, he is almost never matched up against those. He is quite the scorer, though, actually reminds me a lot of Vic though Vic is a better ball handler.

https://www.freep.com/story/sports/...ball-joshua-langford-northwestern/2468606002/

 

[mikewebb68]

point is we wouldn't have gotten buie if we had lathon. he wouldn't come to sit behind a 30 min a game guy

And Haywood shoots and scores again!

 

[mikewebb68]

Updating my analysis from yesterday to attempt to reflect IGNORE's (Bob's) commentsNote: I exclude players that play less than 3 minutes a game)

Michigan State has three guards with a greater than a 1.75 assist to TO ratio (using this standard since that encompasses the top 170 or so guys in that state in NCAA Division I, which seems reasonable); Matt McQuiaid, (3.28) and Cassius Winston (2.64) and Kyle Ahrens (1.85). Matt is a sharpshooter who no one will ever accuse with being a primary ball handler, and Kyle is a wing. And this is seemingly why Cassius plays so many minutes... he clearly meets or exceed's both of Bob's criteria, but there is only one of him. We already discussed the injury to Lankford

Ohio State has only one guy who at least a 1.75; Keyshawn Woods, just barely at 1.79. Since, from the eye test of watching yesterday's game, and others he has played in, he definitely handles the rock and can create his own shot off the dribble (though has not had a great degree of success in actually making those shots), I will assume he meets Bob's criteria. As previously discussed I would assume that C.J. Jackson, the actual primary ball handler for the team, would meet Bob's criteria as well, despite a meh assist to TO ratio (1.35).Of course, since OSU has a three-guard lineup, one would expect this. And, a three-guard lineup, of course, come at the expense of things such as rebounding (OSU ranks 257th in total rebounds), so there is a price to pay for such a lineup.

So it would appear that MSU as a team would not meet Bob's criteria for having "ballhandlers" and OSU would. So a wash at this point for two likely NCAA toruney teams; exciting to see what future analysis will bring!

 

[hdhntr1]

While I’m inspired by your desire to change my point, I will try once again to say in small words with hope that you will get it.

I feel that the roster, at a minimum, should always have two legit ballhandling guards ready to play. PG, LG, SG - I’m not caught up in the label. But two backcourt, ballhandling, legit B1G players.

Seems the dance is always about guard play. Really looking forward to watching and commentating here for mike.

We have two legit ball handling guards but no one that sees the floor like a PG. Bringing the ball up the floor is not usually the problem. Running the O is.

 

[hdhntr1]

Unless:
1. Buie is not ready
2. Buie gets hurt
3. Buie doesn’t end up on campus
4. Buie is a bust

Once again, all the eggs in the unknown true freshman basket. And if something goes wrong, then it’s anything but CCCs fault.

Seems like I have seen this movie.

And we still have Greer who will have a year to get ready to play at this level. As far as ball handling guards, we also have Turner coming back and possibly, a healthy Ash

 

[hdhntr1]

A productive use of the 12th and 13th schollies with redshirts that can be burned in an instance sounds great to me. Ideally, we run 8-9 man rotation. So 10-13 are clean up minutes or redshirt opportunities until someone gets hurt, or mono, or whatever.

And one more year of practice, training room, training table - could make a difference. I do not huge leap, but better than without.

Generally players develop the most between Frosh and Soph years.

 

[hdhntr1]

Is Nance expected back this season? If not can he still get a redshirt season?

I think probably too late to RS. He likely would be back as I think he is close but he will be very out of condition

 

[Catreporter]

Illinois has three legit penetrating guards in Ayo, Feliz and Frazier and that has helped turn their season around, unfortunately. It's all about guards in college hoops. Penn State has three starters back from an NIT title team, but not their point guard. Like NU, they use their forward Stevens to try and create offense,and he is better at it than Law, but the results tell the tale. Heck, Rutgers' mediocre guards Baker and Harper killed us with drives in the second half at Welsh-Ryan. By the way, I'm not at all convinced Greer will be the answer next season. Not sure he is tall enough or quick enough.

 

[Medill90]

I think probably too late to RS. He likely would be back as I think he is close but he will be very out of condition

he's played in 18 games so that eliminates the redshirt option

 

[IGNORE]

point is we wouldn't have gotten buie if we had lathon. he wouldn't come to sit behind a 30 min a game guy

Depends if he could beat him. Or if staff promised to play them both together. Neither happened because Lathon gone but who knows.