So can someone explain....

[FeliSilvestris]

That is actually a very easy question to answer.
Before Collins arrived in Evanston, absolutely no one in the entire country cared one bit about NU basketball except for NU alumni.
Now they do.

That say YOU. Exactly WHY do people outside the NU community care about a team that is exactly ONE game over. 500 in a fairly weak B1G??

Let me guess. B/c NU MAY or may not get its first ever bid to the NCAA T? This is THE FIRST of 4 seasons under CC that NU has gotten that kind of "buzz". In case you have already forgotten NU also got into the "bubble" several times under BC with comparable buzz. It just fell short in the end. Let's hope history won't repeat itself this time. O/w NOTHING new would have been accomplished.

 

[mikewebb68]

That say YOU. Exactly WHY do people outside the NU community care about a team that is exactly ONE game over. 500 in a fairly weak B1G??

Let me guess. B/c NU MAY or may not get its first ever bid to the NCAA T? This is THE FIRST of 4 seasons under CC that NU has gotten that kind of "buzz". In case you have already forgotten NU also got into the "bubble" several times under BC with comparable buzz. It just fell short in the end. Let's hope history won't repeat itself this time. O/w NOTHING new would have been accomplished.

Comparable buzz? Show me, with links the buzz generated by an NCAA tournament runs prior to this year,

 

[Walker Fan]

Jerry Palm, the baracketoligist of Cbssports just was interviewed on the Score and said that NU is in right now due to the a very weak bubble and their entire body of work. He said their conference record is not a factor.

NU is competing against teams like Marquette, KState, Syracuse, Rhode Island and those are teams that all got in.

And no, BC did not have several teams who generated this type of buzz. Wrong again. How about the 15-16, 5th place in the Patriot League team with the 195 RPI? Great coach! Not!

 

[EvanstonCat]

WHAT HAD THE PROGRAM ACCOMPLISHED in the years prior to BC?

Pretty much about the same as what Carmody was able to achieve. NIT appearances.

We got to NITs before Carmody. In fact, the previous 2 coaches all went to the NIT. Whoop-de-doo.

 

[NUCat320]

Jerry Palm, the baracketoligist of

I feel like @stpaulcat is probably the board's leading baracketologist, though that's more of a rant board thing.

 

[ThatkidfromHolland]

Okay before I go on I think Collins is a much better coach. Carmody helped northwestern a lot it was time for us to move on though. He was a very good X and O's coach and poor recruiter. Collins is a great recruiter and his staff/him are great at developing talent. Not a always a fan of his late game play calling but still a huge fan of his. The bashes on lumpkin are outrageous. Seriously just because he and taphorn are carmody recruits it seems some people want them to be bad and try to find evidence of such. They were both developed by Collins staff and they are key parts of this team. Lumpkin is a great defender and our second best on ball defender. (Behind law) We don't beat Wisconsin without lumpkin. Watch the game the doubles and non doubles with him and pardon were things of beauty. I think we will be better next but that's inspite of losing lumpkin and tap not because.

 

[Styre]

Right now, Carmody is the second-most-accomplished coach in NU history. Four NITs isn't much, but compared to our woeful legacy it's quite good.

The moment Collins leads NU to an NCAA tournament berth, which may be in a couple of weeks, he will supplant Carmody in that #2 spot. (Dutch Lonborg, with a national championship and 2 Big Ten titles, is far and away #1.)

Rather than beating the dead horse ever harder, can't we just appreciate that we first got to watch NU's best coach since the 1930s and are now likely watching his replacement do even better?

 

[MysticCat]

How about the 15-16, 5th place in the Patriot League team....,

-------
So basically what you're saying is bc has a better record in his second year at hc than Collins did in his second year at nu. Good point.

Now what else has bc done since he got there, I can't seem to remember much of anything.....

 

[willycat]

Right now, Carmody is the second-most-accomplished coach in NU history. Four NITs isn't much, but compared to our woeful legacy it's quite good.

The moment Collins leads NU to an NCAA tournament berth, which may be in a couple of weeks, he will supplant Carmody in that #2 spot. (Dutch Lonborg, with a national championship and 2 Big Ten titles, is far and away #1.)

Rather than beating the dead horse ever harder, can't we just appreciate that we first got to watch NU's best coach since the 1930s and are now likely watching his replacement do even better?

The Bill Rohr coached teams in the 50's, posted some good records, against some top notch non-conference teams, as well as in conference and would have made 'Dance" if more then one Big Ten was allowed to go. Didn't O'Neil, Falk and Byrdsong also put teams in the NIT?

 

[Fitz51]

Are we seriously arguing about Bill Carmody again? Jesus H.

 

[willycat]

Are we seriously arguing about Bill Carmody again? Jesus H.

Looks like some posters just can't give up the Carmody love and DocFan isn't even contributing.

 

[NJCat]

The Bill Rohr coached teams in the 50's, posted some good records, against some top notch non-conference teams, as well as in conference and would have made 'Dance" if more then one Big Ten was allowed to go. Didn't O'Neil, Falk and Byrdsong also put teams in the NIT?

Yes, all three did. You have an excellent memory. I had forgotten about the O'Neil team.

 

[Styre]

The Bill Rohr coached teams in the 50's, posted some good records, against some top notch non-conference teams, as well as in conference and would have made 'Dance" if more then one Big Ten was allowed to go.

All true, though Rohr's teams also only finished over .500 overall twice in 6 years.

Didn't O'Neil, Falk and Byrdsong also put teams in the NIT?

Yep. One each.

Look, if we hung banners for team accomplishments, they would look like this:
National Champions: 1931
Big Ten Champions: 1931, 1933
NIT: 1983, 1994, 1999, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012

In terms of who's responsible for what in terms of importance, you end up with Lonborg, then Carmody, then Falk/Byrdsong/O'Neill. If we actually get "NCAA: 2017" up there, Collins jumps from off the list straight into the #2 spot. He's already guaranteed an NIT berth this year, so in the worst case scenario he'll join the #3 tie.

 

[Fitz51]

Looks like some posters just can't give up the Carmody love and DocFan isn't even contributing.

It's crazy. Maybe if we get to the tourney this year, everyone will start treating pre-2016 basketball like they do pre-1995 football, and we'll never have to hear about Carmody again. That would be nice.

 

[Hungry Jack]

I am at a loss to comprehend the premise of this thread.



I think you can see Doc or maybe Glades dancing in this video at 1:14. Alaska makes an appearance starting at 1:31.

 

[Palindrome]

How about the 15-16, 5th place in the Patriot League team....,

-------
So basically what you're saying is bc has a better record in his second year at hc than Collins did in his second year at nu. Good point.

Now what else has bc done since he got there, I can't seem to remember much of anything.....

This is NOT an argument for BC as being better for NU than Collins is and will be. BC’s shortcomings in recruiting (especially, in terms of depth) for a power conference team are pretty obvious. But, being fair to him, we should recognize that in his first season at Holy Cross, he shepherded a previously woeful team through several consecutive road upsets in the Patriot League tourney and ended up in the 2016 Big Dance. Chris Collins seems to be a godsend for NU hoops, even though still mastering his craft as a head coach. But one does not need to diss Bill Carmody on one's way to concluding that.

 

[FeliSilvestris]

All true, though Rohr's teams also only finished over .500 overall twice in 6 years.



Yep. One each.

Look, if we hung banners for team accomplishments, they would look like this:
National Champions: 1931
Big Ten Champions: 1931, 1933
NIT: 1983, 1994, 1999, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012

Right. BUT BC's contribution cannot solely be measured by NIT banners.

His main contribution was to establish NU as a COMPETITIVE B1G program most seasons.

He actually became competitive as recently as his SECOND season, when he finished just ONE game under .500 in the B1G. By his 4th he had the first NU non-losing B1G season in the "modern" era. Early in his tenure he had many ups and down, but toward the end (except for his very last season) he had established NU as a reliably competitive B1G program that routinely won 40% or more of its league games (with notable upsets with some frequency), and made the NIT (often with "bubble" consideration). That would be very modest in many schools, but at NU it was BC's main contribution (even without the NIT appearance): that is, getting NU to become a consistently respectable rival in the B1G.

 

[mikewebb68]

Looks like some posters just can't give up the Carmody love and DocFan isn't even contributing.

Don't be so certain about Doc not contributing-- that Wickerpark guy was passive-aggressive in some recent posts...

 

[willycat]

Right. BUT BC's contribution cannot solely be measured by NIT banners.

His main contribution was to establish NU as a COMPETITIVE B1G program most seasons.

He actually became competitive as recently as his SECOND season, when he finished just ONE game under .500 in the B1G. By his 4th he had the first NU non-losing B1G season in the "modern" era. Early in his tenure he had many ups and down, but toward the end (except for his very last season) he had established NU as a reliably competitive B1G program that routinely won 40% or more of its league games (with notable upsets with some frequency), and made the NIT (often with "bubble" consideration). That would be very modest in many schools, but at NU it was BC's main contribution (even without the NIT appearance): that is, getting NU to become a consistently respectable rival in the B1G.

To bad you and Pal either didn't read the last post by Fitz51 and liked by many or just can't bring yourselves to forget the past.

 

[mikewebb68]

Comparable buzz? Show me, with links the buzz generated by an NCAA tournament runs prior to this year,

Still waiting for Feli to provide those comparable Dance buzz links from the Carmody years. Have a feeling my wait will be akin to Waiting for Godot...

 

[Hungry Jack]

The only dance buzz during the Carmody years was for Dance Marathon.

 

[EvanstonCat]

Right now, Carmody is the second-most-accomplished coach in NU history. Four NITs isn't much, but compared to our woeful legacy it's quite good.

The moment Collins leads NU to an NCAA tournament berth, which may be in a couple of weeks, he will supplant Carmody in that #2 spot. (Dutch Lonborg, with a national championship and 2 Big Ten titles, is far and away #1.)

Rather than beating the dead horse ever harder, can't we just appreciate that we first got to watch NU's best coach since the 1930s and are now likely watching his replacement do even better?

Perhaps, but Collins will finish his career, about 40 years from now, as #1 on the list (he'll get to #1 soon) and one of the winningest coaches in NCAA history.

 

[Walker Fan]

Can we wait 9 days and enjoy the fun roller coaster ride of a season, we are having before we come up with wild claims of Collins' legacy in 40 years? Can we discuss how we can beat a well balanced UM squad led by former Michigan High School Player of the Year Derrick Walton and former Indiana Player of the Year Zac Irvin and an improving Moe Wagner and three point shooter from President Shapiro's old school, Williams College in Duncan Robinson. Also, Rakhman always seems to have his best games against NU. They also have a 6'9" forward in Wilson who is a handful. Can NU finally knock the door down to the NCAA tourney? That is a more fun discussion than the naysayers who still can't figure out NU is playing meaningful games in March. They just can't figure it out that this will be the new norm.

 

[NJCat]

Can we wait enjoy the fun roller coaster ride of a season, we are having before we come up with wild claims of Collins' legacy in 40 years?

No. I will likely be dead in 40 years. Need to have the Collins discussion while I'm still onliine.

 

[SimpsonElmwood]

No. I will likely be dead in 40 years. Need to have the Collins discussion while I'm still onliine.

If the Cats don't win soon, a lot of us may be dead in two weeks, let alone 40 years!

Go Cats!!!

 

[willycat]

Can we wait 9 days and enjoy the fun roller coaster ride of a season, we are having before we come up with wild claims of Collins' legacy in 40 years? Can we discuss how we can beat a well balanced UM squad led by former Michigan High School Player of the Year Derrick Walton and former Indiana Player of the Year Zac Irvin and an improving Moe Wagner and three point shooter from President Shapiro's old school, Williams College in Duncan Robinson. Also, Rakhman always seems to have his best games against NU. They also have a 6'9" forward in Wilson who is a handful. Can NU finally knock the door down to the NCAA tourney? That is a more fun discussion than the naysayers who still can't figure out NU is playing meaningful games in March. They just can't figure it out that this will be the new norm.

With all of those all-world players, maybe NU should just not show up.

 

[phatcat]

I've been away for a while, and don't want to read all of this. Just a couple of questions

1. Can we agree that our injuries this year are comparable or less than losing Coble? How about him unexpectedly leaving early? (although I believe it was because Carmody was a jerk).

2. I don't remember the year exactly, but weren't we a last second loss to Minn away from a likely tourney bid one year? I kinda remember being deflated after.

3. If we lose out, lose first round BTT AND lose first NIT game, will your opinions change at all?

I now understand that Carmody was a real toad, but IMHO, every season is Pass/Fail until we get a bid.

I don't know enough about basketball, or the Cats to analyze it that closely , but it seems to me that a bid is roughly equivalent to a football"New year's Six" game - admirable but no big deal. If Collins were replacing a Carmody record that was the same except for, say, two NCAA bids, would we be lauding him?

 

[julescat]

it seems to me that a bid is roughly equivalent to a football"New year's Six" game

Getting an NCAA tournament bid is not equivalent to getting a New Year's Six bowl bid. Ending up in the Sweet Sixteen would be, in my opinion.

Shows how pathetic our basketball history really is. Which is why finding a way to make it in, preferable with a win or two this week is so important for this program and Collins.

 

[Fitz51]

Getting an NCAA tournament bid is not equivalent to getting a New Year's Six bowl bid. Ending up in the Sweet Sixteen would be, in my opinion.

Shows how pathetic our basketball history really is. Which is why finding a way to make it in, preferable with a win or two this week is so important for this program and Collins.

Exactly.

 

[Fitz51]

3. If we lose out, lose first round BTT AND lose first NIT game, will your opinions change at all?

Ha, NIT games.

 

[Secho99]

Comparable buzz? Show me, with links the buzz generated by an NCAA tournament runs prior to this year,

To be fair, most buzz I've seen about this team has been created by the gaggle of NU alums who are in the sports media. I'm not sure others care about it much. My non-NU CBB fan friends are only mildly aware that we're having a good season. I don't think it will really blow up as a general interest sports story until we actually make it.

 

[mikewebb68]

To be fair, most buzz I've seen about this team has been created by the gaggle of NU alums who are in the sports media. I'm not sure others care about it much. My non-NU CBB fan friends are only mildly aware that we're having a good season. I don't think it will really blow up as a general interest sports story until we actually make it.

Was not referencing the level of the the buzz now, but how it compares to that under Carmody The buzz now is the SAME or LESS than it was for the Carmody team that flirted with the Dance? Not buying that one bit.

 

[FeliSilvestris]

Was not referencing the level of the the buzz now, but how it compares to that under Carmody The buzz now is the SAME or LESS than it was for the Carmody team that flirted with the Dance? Not buying that one bit.

Pretty tough to find accurate measurements of a highly subjective phenomenon like "buzz". Every time a team that has never made "the dance" seems to have a chance to get in ( and some BC definitely DID) there is "buzz" (whatever that is). And who the hell cares anyway if the actual goal isn' t reached?
One thing special about this year is that NU started 7-2 in the B1G which prompted many to assume making the T was a done deal (assuming NU would at least play. 500 the rest of the way). It has't quite worked out that way. But winning a couple more B1G games would help a lot.

 

[NUCat320]

I never went into a single selection Sunday thinking NU had a chance to make the tournament. I go into selection Sunday in 12 days fairly to very confident that NU is in, regardless of what happens between now and then.

 

[Katatonic]

Uh... don't look now, but the Cats are already STILL in the top half of the conference, and that isn't going to change even if we lose out.

What does that have to do w/ anything I stated?

Keep it relevant.

Comparable buzz? Show me, with links the buzz generated by an NCAA tournament runs prior to this year,

In 2010-11 and 2011-12, there was buzz as the 'Cats were on the bubble (ultimately on the wrong side); not as great as this season, but still buzz.

There were plenty of articles in the Trib, ESPN, etc. as to whether those seasons were going to be the ones when the 'Cats finally got over the hump and the 'Cats were in ESPN's, SI's, etc. bubble watches.

Did you, like, miss those seasons or simply relying on alterna-facts?

Pretty much about the same as what Carmody was able to achieve. NIT appearances.

We got to NITs before Carmody. In fact, the previous 2 coaches all went to the NIT. Whoop-de-doo.

The previous 2 coaches got to the NIT w/ every 4-5 years w/ SR-laden teams and didn't ever come close to being on the bubble.

BC got the 'Cats in the post-season for 4 consecutive seasons (would have been 5 consecutive, but for the injury-riddled '12-13 season) during a period when the B1G was a BB powerhouse and went the deepest they ever have in the NIT, not to mention winning a couple of early season tournaments.

So no, not comparable to what Byrdsong or O'Neil did.

 

[EvanstonCat]

What does that have to do w/ anything I stated?

Keep it relevant.



In 2010-11 and 2011-12, there was buzz as the 'Cats were on the bubble (ultimately on the wrong side); not as great as this season, but still buzz.

There were plenty of articles in the Trib, ESPN, etc. as to whether those seasons were going to be the ones when the 'Cats finally got over the hump and the 'Cats were in ESPN's, SI's, etc. bubble watches.

Did you, like, miss those seasons or simply relying on alterna-facts?




The previous 2 coaches got to the NIT w/ every 4-5 years w/ SR-laden teams and didn't ever come close to being on the bubble.

BC got the 'Cats in the post-season for 4 consecutive seasons (would have been 5 consecutive, but for the injury-riddled '12-13 season) during a period when the B1G was a BB powerhouse and went the deepest they ever have in the NIT, not to mention winning a couple of early season tournaments.

So no, not comparable to what Byrdsong or O'Neil did.

First of all, you were the one who talked about not being there yet.

As I had stated from the start, if CC is going to play straight-up, he not only will have to increase the talent base more than where BC had it, but increase it so that it is in the upper half of the conference.

The 'Cats simply aren't there yet (yeah, there have been some injuries, but every team has injuries, some worse.) and they have been fortunate this season in that a good # of B1G teams are young, playing a boatload of frosh.

Hate to break it to you but WE ARE THERE ALREADY. TOP HALF OF THE CONFERENCE. CHECK THE STANDINGS.


As for your Carmody hugging ways, it's nonsense. Carmody brought us mediocrity that didn't exceed the accomplishments of anyone else, he just did it more consistently. BFD. I aspire for something more.

Yeah, you were Walker fan too. Go figure.

Give me the assistant coach who has national championship rings every day of the week over the mid-major guy who can win in a lesser division but doesn't know how to win at the highest level of the game.

 

[FeliSilvestris]

I never went into a single selection Sunday thinking NU had a chance to make the tournament. I go into selection Sunday in 12 days fairly to very confident that NU is in, regardless of what happens between now and then.

Well you are entitled to your expectations. If I were you I wouldn't bet that a team that finishes 2-8 (9-10 for the B1G season, incl the BTT), which losing out implies, would get a coveted AL bid. Then again, it's your business.

 

[olshin]

I've been away for a while, and don't want to read all of this. Just a couple of questions

1. Can we agree that our injuries this year are comparable or less than losing Coble? How about him unexpectedly leaving early? (although I believe it was because Carmody was a jerk).

2. I don't remember the year exactly, but weren't we a last second loss to Minn away from a likely tourney bid one year? I kinda remember being deflated after.

3. If we lose out, lose first round BTT AND lose first NIT game, will your opinions change at all?

I now understand that Carmody was a real toad, but IMHO, every season is Pass/Fail until we get a bid.

I don't know enough about basketball, or the Cats to analyze it that closely , but it seems to me that a bid is roughly equivalent to a football"New year's Six" game - admirable but no big deal. If Collins were replacing a Carmody record that was the same except for, say, two NCAA bids, would we be lauding him?

If we had 2 NCAA bids under Carmody, he might still be here.

 

[FeliSilvestris]

Hate to break it to you but WE ARE THERE ALREADY. TOP HALF OF THE CONFERENCE. CHECK THE STANDINGS.

NU is currently tied for 6th with Mich (whom it plays tomorrow) out of 14 teams, just one game over .500. I doubt that satisfies the definition of being in the top half of the conference, especially considering that 2 of NU's toughest league games are yet to be played. If it does so, it would be only by a hair, which may change as early as tomorrow.

It would be fairer to say that (as of THIS season) NU is a middle-of-the-pack (literally) B1G team. Not a terrible position for NU to be in, BTW. But that isn't the same as being a top half team.

 

[NJCat]

NU is currently tied for 6th with Mich (whom it plays tomorrow) out of 14 teams, just one game over .500. I doubt that satisfies the definition of being in the top half of the conference, especially considering that 2 of NU's toughest league games are yet to be played. If it does so, it would be only by a hair, which may change as early as tomorrow.

It would be fairer to say that (as of THIS season) NU is a middle-of-the-pack (literally) B1G team. Not a terrible position to be in, BTW. But that isn't the same as being a top half team.

The top half of a 14 team conference is......7 teams. So even if NU is 7th THEY ARE TOP HALF. Last team in the top half, but still top half. You may doubt that they are, but as they sit today you are wrong.