THE PLAY: Now let's bury the Carmody/Collins hatchet.

[NJcatsfan]

A Carmody recruit and a Collins recruit hooked up for the most meaningful and magical finish in program history -- likely securing The Impossible Dream in the process. In light of that symbolism, can we now just celebrate together & stop the bickering about our current and former coach?

Carmody stabilized the program, made us competitive, ran a clean show, and hit 20 wins on several occasions. He ultimately couldn't take us to the next step, which Collins (almost certainly) now has. As a big fan of BOTH coaches, I say we salute each of their efforts that helped build toward last night's spectacular moment, and *move on* from all the divisive bickering moving forward. We're dancing, guys. Soak it in!

GO 'CATS!

 

[NJCat]

Carmody stabilized the program, made us competitive, ran a clean show, and hit 20 wins on several occasions. He ultimately couldn't take us to the next step, which Collins (almost certainly) now has. As a big fan of BOTH coaches, let's salute each of their efforts that built toward this spectacular moment, and *move on* from all the divisive bickering.

GO 'CATS!

Amen, amen, AMEN......

 

[Alan Smithee]

Amen!

"Pound the rock" isn't just a cliche story. Key contributors of course start with Collins, his coaching staff, and every player on the current roster. They deserve tremendous credit. I also believe the list of contributors includes Bill Carmody, Tavaras Hardy, Drew Crawford, John Shurna, Kevin Coble, Juice, Jitim, and everyone else who worked their tails off toward this goal, even if they didn't get to achieve it. All of them said "yes" to Northwestern. All of them fought to get to this point. All of them took a number of swings at the rock. I hope that they will appreciate their part in breaking it. I do.

 

[Alaskawildkat]

Amen!

"Pound the rock" isn't just a cliche story. Key contributors of course start with Collins, his coaching staff, and every player on the current roster. They deserve tremendous credit. I also believe the list of contributors includes Bill Carmody, Tavaras Hardy, Drew Crawford, Kevin Coble, Juice, Jitim, and everyone else who worked their tails off toward this goal, even if they didn't get to achieve it. All of them said "yes" to Northwestern. All of them fought to get to this point. All of them took a number of swings at the rock. I hope that they will appreciate their part in breaking it. I do.

Plus One, and I would add that the fans like you who have loyally supported Northwestern Basketball over the entire stretch also merit kudos.

 

[VirginiaWildcat]

The only ones who still seem to have issues won't be showing their faces around here for a bit (ie Mystic, etc). The rest of us are simply enjoying the moment!

 

[phatcat]

Carmody would have beaten ILL twice

Kidding!!

 

[willycat]

A Carmody recruit and a Collins recruit hooked up for the most meaningful and magical finish in program history -- likely securing The Impossible Dream in the process. In light of that symbolism, can we now just celebrate together & stop the bickering about our current and former coach?

Carmody stabilized the program, made us competitive, ran a clean show, and hit 20 wins on several occasions. He ultimately couldn't take us to the next step, which Collins (almost certainly) now has. As a big fan of BOTH coaches, I say we salute each of their efforts that helped build toward last night's spectacular moment, and *move on* from all the divisive bickering moving forward. We're dancing, guys. Soak it in!

GO 'CATS!

Let's ALL celebrate! Hope Carmody passed along congratulations to Tap, Lumpkin, the rest of the team and Collins and his coaching staff.

 

[Styre]

A Carmody recruit and a Collins recruit hooked up for the most meaningful and magical finish in program history -- likely securing The Impossible Dream in the process. In light of that symbolism, can we now just celebrate together & stop the bickering about our current and former coach?

Carmody stabilized the program, made us competitive, ran a clean show, and hit 20 wins on several occasions. He ultimately couldn't take us to the next step, which Collins (almost certainly) now has. As a big fan of BOTH coaches, I say we salute each of their efforts that helped build toward last night's spectacular moment, and *move on* from all the divisive bickering moving forward. We're dancing, guys. Soak it in!

As I said in another thread, when Carmody was here we were watching the second-most-accomplished coach in program history. And now we are watching Collins surpass his achievements and take that spot for himself. Unless you were alive in the early 1930s, you've never seen NU basketball this consistently good. And unlike 1995, this isn't a miracle breakthrough; it's just another step in a natural progression that has eluded us for decades.

I thought 2017-18 was going to be "the year," and the various injuries that befell the program this season seemed to cement NIT status. Instead, they battled, overcame adversity, and likely broke through the most ridiculous barrier in college basketball. It was amazingly cathartic to stand and applaud while watching the celebration on the floor - and hopefully we'll get to do it all over again in front of the CBS cameras on Sunday.

 

[FitzFan]

Amen!

"Pound the rock" isn't just a cliche story. Key contributors of course start with Collins, his coaching staff, and every player on the current roster. They deserve tremendous credit. I also believe the list of contributors includes Bill Carmody, Tavaras Hardy, Drew Crawford, John Shurna, Kevin Coble, Juice, Jitim, and everyone else who worked their tails off toward this goal, even if they didn't get to achieve it. All of them said "yes" to Northwestern. All of them fought to get to this point. All of them took a number of swings at the rock. I hope that they will appreciate their part in breaking it. I do.

Also saw Vedran Vukusic at the game. I'm sure Sobo and some of the other regulars were in attendance. Gotta feel good for past players, as well. I'm sure they appreciate just how amazing last night was.

 

[Sec.112]

... can we now just celebrate together & stop the bickering about our current and former coach?

I think the real fans have begun their celebration.

Most of us moved on especially when it became obvious there were quite a few who simply played the role of fan for some weird "cause" and Internet battle.

It's too bad they didn't allow themselves to enjoy this.

 

[WarCat]

Hi folks. I've been away. Not because I was bearing a grudge because of the Carmody firing, but because I grew exceedingly weary of the bashing that went on around here. Once the Carmody folks moved on from the disappointment over his firing, it seemed like the Carmody bashers couldn't even give him credit for what he did accomplish. The Carmody-bashers were loath to say anything good about Carmody or anyone who supported Carmody. It made for some mighty boring reading.

So I've been quietly enjoying this run and only lurking occasionally over here. What NJCatsfan said is absolute truth and I applaud him for it.

Coach Collins, like the man who replaced his father a few miles south of W-R, is the guy who finally got us to Point C. But he's also the first men's basketball coach in NU history to begin his tenure at Point B. Just as Doug got the Bulls poised for their championship run, Carmody brought a program left for dead in KO's wake to the point where Collins had something of value to offer to the blue chip recruits that Carmody could never land.

Collins has succeeded in doing what Carmody couldn't do in 13 years at the helm. Carmody succeeded in doing what generations of coaches hadn't been able to do since the days of Arthur Lonborg. Both deserve credit for getting the program where it is today.

We all stand on the shoulders of those who came before us. And that allows us to reach higher than they ever could.

 

[ohiovalleycat]

I agree that Carmody helped stabilize the Northwestern basketball program. He made it a consistent double-digit winning team. Before Carmody came, Northwestern usually struggled through single-digit victory seasons of the 5-25 or 7-22 sort with maybe 2 or 3 times a decade creeping up to a 10+ victory season (still mostly losing seasons). After Carmody, Northwestern only failed to hit 10 wins only once. During the Carmody years, Northwestern would hover around a .500 record year to year with some winning years and a couple of years where it challenged for making the Big Dance - probably a victory or two away from making it.

So Carmody did set a foundation of sorts. He made Northwestern basketball competitive major conference program. No, Carmody didn't get NU to the Big Dance, but he did successfully get NU out of the rut where it would just fester as a doormat with a series of seasons well below a .500 overall record each decade. I also agree that Carmody and all the players and coaches that contributed to the program through the years deserve some recognition. Now it looks as if Collins is set to take the program to the next level of perennially being in contention to make the NCAA tournament and possibly more.

 

[thewildcat2011]

I will be having my own style of Carmody tribute tonight.

Edit: if any of your hearts desperately ache, Holy Cross plays Navy tonight. A classic Carmody v. DeChellis matchup.

 

[NJCat]

I will be having my own style of Carmody tribute tonight.

Edit: if any of your hearts desperately ache, Holy Cross plays Navy tonight. A classic Carmody v. DeChellis matchup.

Damn Ed DeChellis.......

 

[NJcatsfan]

Yes, I realize that 99% of NU fans are over the moon. I'd bet that many of the hardcore Carmody loyalists (and I say that as a big, big fan of his) are also thrilled by the win. The purpose of my post wasn't to attack or inflame either side in this debate, but to simply point out the poetic beauty of Carmody's last recruit heaving a perfect pass to a young Collins recruit, resulting in a bucket that effectively locked us into the Dance. Finally. My hope is that this one iconic moment can serve as a bridge between supporters of each regime...and that we can ALL celebrate, gratefully acknowledging those who laid the groundwork for this breakthrough, and loudly cheering those who were at last able to achieve it.

 

[D_C_B]

Carmody would have beaten ILL twice

Kidding!!

No. Carmody was so good, he'd have intimidated them into forfeiting twice. If ILL had mini-Ditkas, maybe he'd have let them play for the fun of it before destroying them 308-3, the 3 of course coming on a last second gift.

 

[NUCat320]

We must also celebrate Kevin O'Neill, for if Kevin O'Neill hadn't abandoned the program four weeks before fall practice, Henry Bienen would have never called in a favor from the first guy he thought of.

 

[D_C_B]

Let's not forget Rich Falk and Bill Foster. But for them, Feli would not be Feli.

 

[clarificationcat]

Hi folks. I've been away. Not because I was bearing a grudge because of the Carmody firing, but because I grew exceedingly weary of the bashing that went on around here. Once the Carmody folks moved on from the disappointment over his firing, it seemed like the Carmody bashers couldn't even give him credit for what he did accomplish. The Carmody-bashers were loath to say anything good about Carmody or anyone who supported Carmody. It made for some mighty boring reading.

So I've been quietly enjoying this run and only lurking occasionally over here. What NJCatsfan said is absolute truth and I applaud him for it.

Coach Collins, like the man who replaced his father a few miles south of W-R, is the guy who finally got us to Point C. But he's also the first men's basketball coach in NU history to begin his tenure at Point B. Just as Doug got the Bulls poised for their championship run, Carmody brought a program left for dead in KO's wake to the point where Collins had something of value to offer to the blue chip recruits that Carmody could never land.

Collins has succeeded in doing what Carmody couldn't do in 13 years at the helm. Carmody succeeded in doing what generations of coaches hadn't been able to do since the days of Arthur Lonborg. Both deserve credit for getting the program where it is today.

We all stand on the shoulders of those who came before us. And that allows us to reach higher than they ever could.

I think Carmody did good job of building a competitive program. It took him quite a while to do that, though. He finished 3 and 31 in the conference in his 7th and 8th years. That's right up there with Birdsong, Foster and O'Neil. And I don't really buy the Point B to Point C analogy. Phil Jackson inherited Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant. That's a hell of a Point B. Bill Carmody left Collins a few good players (and a few not so good players) but the foundation of this team are Collins' recruits from his first year. Maybe they wouldn't have come to Northwestern if we had only been to the NIT once in the prior 4 years instead of all 4 years, but I think they came primarily based on the vision that Collins' and his staff laid out for them. We had the same crappy stadium and the same crappy practice facilities and a mediocre fan base when Collins recruited Law, Lindsey and BMac. He beat out some good programs to get those guys, programs that had been to the NCCA tournament very recently. Carmody was a good coach and was some bad luck away from getting to 9 or 10 conference wins in one of his last 4 seasons. He should be remembered fondly. But I still think that Collins would be having the same success if NU had been in the bottom of the B1G leading up to him taking over (although maybe he wouldn't have come in that case). Collins and his staff are outstanding teachers, in-game coaches and recruiters. That's a recipe for success regardless of where you start.

 

[D_C_B]

Clarification: I totally agree. This was not CCC building on what BC did. This was tearing it down and starting over. Hinsdale tear down vs sympathetic restoration. The only similarity is the Property ID number.

 

[Styre]

But I still think that Collins would be having the same success if NU had been in the bottom of the B1G leading up to him taking over (although maybe he wouldn't have come in that case).

Bolded the important part, except you can get rid of the "maybe."

 

[NUCat320]

Clarification: I totally agree. This was not CCC building on what BC did. This was tearing it down and starting over. Hinsdale tear down vs sympathetic restoration. The only similarity is the Property ID number.

Completely *disagree*.

Before Carmody, it wasn't even possible to conceive of NU making an NCAA tournament - in the 32 seasons prior to CBC's arrival, NU finished .500 once, above .500 three times, and finished with single digit wins 24 times.

Carmody posted four straight .500 plus seasons before his final season.

In 2000, a recruit wishing to play competitive basketball at the highest level couldn't *possibly* choose Northwestern. They'd come to NU to be close to their grandmother (Jitim), or because all their friends from Plano were also coming (the three guys from Plano).

By the time BC was fired, CCC could sell hope.

CCC has definitely done it a more traditional way - but that couldn't have worked if CBC hadn't willed NU to competitiveness with his completely unconventional approach.

Maybe Tommy Amaker could've done it, though.

 

[D_C_B]

So what?

CCC's hope sale had no more to do with BC than Gary Barnett's did with Francis Peay.

BC showed us another way how not to build a lightbulb.

CCC actually built the lightbulb.

 

[WarCat]

I don't understand why people find it necessary to disparage what Carmody accomplished in order to build up Coach Collins. Coach Collins' accomplishment stands on its own, without having to build it up by tearing down the Carmody era.

And Styre's emphasis is an important point - Collins may have decided to stay in Durham as K's heir apparent if NU were the train wreck it had been prior to 2000. Not to mention that his job of convincing talented players to consider Northwestern as an option would have been that much harder had Carmody not made it a reasonably respectable (if not yet blue chip) destination as opposed to the laugher it had been previously.

 

[NUCat320]

So what?

CCC's hope sale had no more to do with BC than Gary Barnett's did with Francis Peay.

BC showed us yet another way how not to build a lightbulb.

CCC actually built the lightbulb.

What Collins has done is *not* what Barnett did. As WarCat so eloquently stated, CCC was the first basketball coach to start at Point B. Barnett started at point negative-L.

(This is not to denigrate CCC, who is an American hero.)

 

[D_C_B]

Not disparaging Carmody here at all. I was a fan.

But Carmody didn't lay the foundation for what CCC has done. So it's quite the opposite. CCC specifically tore down everything BC did.

Different types of players
Different offense
Different defense
Actual emphasis on defense
Different pace
Different rebounding
Actual emphasis on rebounding
Different systems both ways in every respect
CCC literally chucked the entire thing.

What I don't understand is how anybody could think that this team or this system is in any way an extension of anything BC tried to do. It's exactly the opposite.

 

[Styre]

What I don't understand is how anybody could think that this team or this system is in any way an extension of anything BC tried to do. It's exactly the opposite.

Of course it isn't. They're different coaches.

But I'll tell you one thing that Carmody left behind that Collins didn't tear down: a program with a respectable reputation. If you think that NU in 2013 was in any way comparable to NU from about 1985 to 2000, you really need to go read a history book. As a random example, I doubt that Bob Knight phoned up Chris Collins to warn him not to take the NU job.

 

[D_C_B]

Name me on coach who ever recruited a player on another unrelated coach's "respectable reputation?" Just one.

 

[SmellyCat]

I was just thinking today that as Duke haters, many of us probably couldn't stand Chris Collins when he was playing for the Dukies back in the day. Who would've thought years later that we'd all love him?

 

[FitzFan]

Name me on coach who every recruited a player on another unrelated coach's respectable reputation?

Jesus Christ, dude. Re-read what he wrote. And be happy!

You completely missed his point. The program was a complete wreck by 2000. In the preceding decade we had:
1. A coach shot and killed in an act of hate-motivated violence
2. Players caught fixing games
3. A complete mad-man at the helm who demeaned and abused his players (and who left the team 4 weeks before the season started)
4. Several sub 10-win seasons (with only one "decent" year)

Carmody improved the program from dumpster fire to mediocrity. This allowed us to target a young and up-and-coming coach from a national powerhouse. Folks aren't saying that Collins used Carmody's reputation to recruit players--they're saying Collins would have never accepted the role in the first place had Carmody not improved the overall stock of the program. They both deserve credit! We can all be happy!

 

[stpaulcat]

Carmody would have beaten ILL twice

Kidding!!

You get to eat a little more crow.

 

[willycat]

Jesus Christ, dude. Pop a Xanax, take a drink, and simmer down. Be happy!

You completely missed his point. The program was a complete wreck by 2000. In the preceding decade we had:
1. A coach shot and killed in a random act of hate-driven violence
2. Players caught fixing games
3. A complete mad-man at the helm who demeaned and abused his players (and who left the team 4 weeks before the season started)
4. Several sub 10-win seasons (with only one "decent" year)

Carmody took us from absolute bottom to a level of respectability that allowed us to target a young and up-and-coming coach from a national powerhouse. I don't think folks are saying that Collins used Carmody's reputation to recruit players--they're saying Collins would have never accepted the role in the first place had Carmody not made it a more respectable destination.

I'll bet that Chris never even thought about Carmody before he decided to take the job. Remember Law's father stated that Vic would have never come to NU if Carmody was the coach and Mac switched his commitment when Collins was named HC. Do you really think that one of the top big men in the state would have come to NU if Carmody was still here. No way in hell. Including the murder of Byrdsong to make a point favoring carmody is absurd.

 

[Styre]

I knew it wouldn't last. Sigh.

 

[FitzFan]

I'll bet that Chris never even thought about Carmody before he decided to take the job. Remember Law's father stated that Vic would have never come to NU if Carmody was the coach and Mac switched his commitment when Collins was named HC. Do you really think that one of the top big men in the state would have come to NU if Carmody was still here. No way in hell. Including the murder of Byrdsong to make a point favoring carmody is absurd.

I only spoke up because I felt like a certain poster was hijacking an upbeat, positive thread and stirring up trouble for the sake of making noise.

Carmody began coaching the team when the program was at its lowest. He coached the team to a level of mediocrity that the program had not seen in some time. It was probably much more appealing to Collins to take over a program with some recent history of MINOR success, SOME talent on the roster, NO recent scandals or turmoil, etc., than it would have been to take over a program with very little recent success, very little talent, and a major scandal in the years preceding his takeover. Carmody deserves credit for improving the "stock" of the program, just as Collins deserves credit for taking the program in a different direction, improving recruiting, and leading the program to its first tournament appearance. It's what we all mean when we say, "point A to B, point B to C."

Does that make sense?

 

[stpaulcat]

I only spoke up because I felt like a certain poster was hijacking an upbeat, positive thread and stirring up trouble for the sake of making noise.

I'm not saying that Collins ever brought up Carmody while recruiting, thought about Carmody, or talked to Carmody prior to taking the job, nor am I using the death of Byrdsong to "make a point favoring Carmody." I am saying that I doubt Collins would have accepted the head coaching position at NU had the program been in the state it was in the 1990's.

Carmody began coaching the team when the program was at its lowest. He coached the team to a level of mediocrity that the program had not seen in some time. It was probably much more appealing to Collins to take over a program with some recent history of MINOR success, SOME talent on the roster, NO recent scandals or turmoil, etc., than it would have been to take over a program with very little recent success, very little talent, and a major scandal in the years preceding his takeover. Carmody deserves some credit for improving the "stock" of the program, just as Collins deserves credit for taking the program in a different direction, improving recruiting, and leading the program to its first tournament appearance. It's what we all mean when we say, "point A to B, point B to C."

Does that make sense?

Carmody deserves a lot of credit. NU basketball was dog meat before he got there, mainly because building (or beginning to build) a major sports program at NU is like trying to grow bananas in Minnesota. You have to give Carmody, Collins, Barnett, Walker and Fitz A LOT of credit.

 

[NURoseBowl]

Carmody deserves a lot of credit. NU basketball was dog meat before he got there, mainly because building (or beginning to build) a major sports program at NU is like trying to grow bananas in Minnesota. You have to give Carmody, Collins, Barnett, Walker and Fitz A LOT of credit.

Why anybody would argue - or even question - this . . . is beyond me.

 

[D_C_B]

Jesus Christ, duuuddeee, I'm deleriously happy! I'm happy for CCC and his team! We have a great coach! A coach who blew up the Carmody system that did not build the lightbulb and actually built the lightbulb at NU - putting to rest decades and decades of hopelessness and failure which included - yes - BC's decade+ of failure at getting to the Tourney.

I'm doing backflips over this!!

To listen to some around here, though, you'd think that BC actually deserves some credit for this. That notion is pure fallacy, revisionist history and "every kid deserves a trophy" thinking.

I was a Carmody fan. I loved watching the Princeton offense worked well. Carmody deserves plenty of credit, yes. For what he did. He had good teams. He got us to the NIT. He had multi-game win streaks for the first time in ions. He sniffed the bubble. Credit for that. Yes. I am sure as heck not trying to dump on BC.

But like every other human on earth, he doesn't deserve any credit for what he didn't do, contrary to what some here are insinuating. BC didn't take this team to the Tourney. CCC did. And he did it with defense and rebounding - precisely the opposite of the BC method. So, truthfully, BC didn't do anything having to do with this.

Carmody was an accomplished coach who, like Foster and O'Neill, came here with a goal and failed to accomplish that goal. Period. He did not "lay the foundation" for what CCC has done, however. Coaching-wise, CCC gets all the credit for this. 100%. He doesn't have to share it with anybody. But some folks here want to take something away from what CCC has done by saying that CCC couldn't have done this without BC's foundation and "respectable reputation", Neither of which in my view have anything to do with the success that CCC is having doing thing 180 degrees the opposite of the way BC did them.

That's the only reason that I decided to speak up.

 

[Walker Fan]

Time to focus on Sunday at 3:30 pm on national TV versus the undisputed conference champions and no. 1 Big 10 seeded Purdue Boilermakers. Jim Nantz, Bill Rafferty and Grant Hill will be there. What a great opportunity for the program to make another big statement. NU will be underdogs. Any guess as to how many points Purdue will be favored. My guess is 7 points. The gym will be rocking. Purdue fans have bought a ton of tickets months ago in anticipation that they could win the Big 10 championship at this game. Another championship atmosphere. I would like Pardon and Benson to play at the same time for portions of the game as Purdue's Swanigan and Haas do. Do you think Painter does not play his starters as much since the game does not have any meaning from a Big 10 persoective, although a win helps their NCAA tournament seeding. A win for NU still may have BTT tourney and double bye implications. Time to focus on the next game which is going to be a raucous and very fun scene in the last game at Welsh Ryan for a year and a half. I, for one, can't wait, for the final chapter of his amazingly fun roller coaster of a ride regular season!

 

[NJCat]

I was just thinking today that as Duke haters, many of us probably couldn't stand Chris Collins when he was playing for the Dukies back in the day. Who would've thought years later that we'd all love him?

This. I am a Duke hater and hated the Collins hire (even though I knew nothing about him and had never heard him speak). After about 2 month of him coaching at NU I was sold. Class individual and very good coach.

 

[NJCat]

Time to focus on Sunday at 3:30 pm on national TV versus the undisputed conference champions and no. 1 Big 10 seeded Purdue Boilermakers. Jim Nantz, Bill Rafferty and Grant Hill will be there.

More importantly, my fav Tracy Wolfson will be along the sidelines.