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VirginiaWildcat said:
The budget ALWAYS increases. Do you not think it ever increased during Carmody's tenure? What you inferred is that it increased exponentially for Phillips. There is no evidence of that.
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I did not infer that it increased exponentially. I repeated what the article said. You are too quick to attack people without really thinking about what they said.

Besides that, if these increases were not notable, why were they mentioned specifically in the article? If the increases were not important, then why did Phillips approach major donors?

Why does it bother you that Phillips went really to bat for Collins and increased these budgets? It does not bother me. It suggests that he didn't do this for Carmody, but you know what? Chris is Jim's guy and I understand that and I don't see anything wrong with it. It's just factual information. It's no reason to fly off the handle and act so strangely.
 
YesterdaysCat said:
I did not infer that it increased exponentially. I repeated what the article said. You are too quick to attack people without really thinking about what they said.

Besides that, if these increases were not notable, why were they mentioned specifically in the article? If the increases were not important, then why did Phillips approach major donors?

Why does it bother you that Phillips went really to bat for Collins and increased these budgets? It does not bother me. It suggests that he didn't do this for Carmody, but you know what? Chris is Jim's guy and I understand that and I don't see anything wrong with it. It's just factual information. It's no reason to fly off the handle and act so strangely.
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Ah, how many years was Bill, Jim's guy? Also do you believe everything you read? Phillips came up with the cash to re-do the dressing rooms and that was before Chris arrived, per a request from Bill. Maybe if Bill had asked for a private plane for recruiting purposes, he would have been able to be in Evanston for Kaminsky's visit, or not. Finally you claimed that Carmody and Phillips argued on the court, after games. Really I attended lots of games when Carmody was coach and never witnessed that. Documentation, photos, audio, please.
 
YesterdaysCat said:
I think it's fair to say that Princeton offense or not, a team built around Sobolewski, Sina, Abrahamson, Lumpkin, Taphorn, Demps, and Olah would not have made the NCAAs. I don't know; maybe Hardy would have brought in the next Shurna or Crawford or Juice, but we can't assume as much. Shurna was our all-time leading scorer; how often do those guys come around? Those of us long-time Cats fans can name the phenoms of the last 25 years of NU BB on one hand--and two of them transferred out.
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I think the change was made at the right time - the next John Shurna wasn't walking through that door, and the CCC's first team didn't have the talent to compete.

But I do think Dr. Jim ensured that the next John Shurna wasn't walking through that door the day he extended Carmody by two years, which is the same as zero. Three or four years would've given him a chance to land some talent. Two years was such a non-commitment.
 
hdhntr1 said:
CCC asked for some of the things. Did BC? If he did and was not given them, then it is a valid point but if not, why are you suggesting Phillips was withholding from him? In general, if you need something, you put together a presentation to show why you need it and how it will benefit. If you don't make such a presentation, whose fault is it you are not getting additional funds? Got to realize that part of a coaches responsibilities is helping with fundraising. How much of that did BC do and how good was he at doing it? Having an out reach type of guy like CCC (similar to Fitz)probably made reaching into donors pockets easier and more successful for getting the upgrades.
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If big time programs travel exclusively private, and big time programs recruit using exclusively private aircraft, then the three people in charge - as someone else wrote, Big Shon (development), Dr. Jim (department), and CBC (hoops) - were equally at fault for it not having happened.

It's possible that CBC or Shon or Jim were ignorant that this is how teams and recruiters travel. It's also possible that Dr Jim wanted it Big Shon and CBC couldn't shake up the donors, or it's possible that CBC asked (he wouldn't tell us, so we can only speculate) and Dr Jim said that resources should be devoted to Fitz and football, or it's possible that Shon wanted it and Jim wanted it and the donors didn't. Lots of things are possible. CCC's demand and Dr Jim's delivery make the program stronger today than yesterday, at least from an infrastructure standpoint. Why we gotta argue?
 
olshin said:
But that's not at all the context of the story.
He didn't want to talk about his greatest failure as a coach, one that he was frustratingly close to. Because anything he could say would come off as an excuse as to why he didn't get the job all the way done. The Point A to Point B but not quite Point C stuff is a pretty fair assessment of Carmody's tenure and the records compared to others who have tried over the last 60+ years (including Hall of Famers) speak to that.
It's not like Feinstein asked "what do you think of Northwestern?" and Carmody said "Eff em"
But I don't think you can drop your anti-Carmody bias enough to realize he did a very good job to get us from Point A to Point B and put us in a position where someone like Collins would find our program attractive.

Hopefully we do get to Point C under Collins, so we don't have to deal with these articles much longer.
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For what it's worth, CCC's father was fired for the same reason. Got MJ to point B. If only Point C were to work out the same way...
 
Gladeskat said:
How about responding to YesterdayCats' reasonable comments rather than going on a witch hunt?
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You wouldn't know anything about a witch hunt, would you, Glades? Lol I just want to know if I'm dealing with the same compulsive liar as before. It's not a witch hunt to ask for a little honesty, no?

As for his points, willy already addressed them nicely. Carmody WAS Phillips guy for several years. But by all means, keep making excuses for a coach that was so well respected he ended up at Holy Cross two seasons after he was let go. The attempts to (still!!) make Carmody a victim by some of the posters here is pretty laughable. Carmody isn't coaching because he was NEVER going to get us to point A, end of story...thus a change was made.

Instead, it was Phillips' fault, the facilities, anything to direct blame elsewhere. Didn't Dr.Jim get him new locker rooms? One could complain that all CCC got was a lousy scoreboard. Lol
 
docrugby1 said:
Did BC sleep with your wife or molest your children ?

BC was a brilliant BB coach but a poor recruiter. Do you think CC could have out performed BC with the same talent ? CC is bringing in better talent, now it is up to him to achieve more than BC.

I have no problem with the CC hire but am tired of the BC bashing. If there was a coach's convention and BC was speaking in one room and CC was speaking in another, which room do you think would be full

BC improved NU with both offensive and defensive gimmicks , dealing with severe talent deficiencies. CC is trying to win playing conventional BB with better talent. . I feel like we have a better chance to win now but appreciate BC's efforts because I recognize how undermanned NU was during his tenure
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At the same time, the lack of talent that BC had to deal with was because of BC. I acknowledge that he did a lot with limited talent but the reason he had limited talent was not because of someone else
 
YesterdaysCat said:
Supposedly Carmody is "my boy" but I have to say this statement is not fair to Collins. Chris hasn't been a head coach long enough to make his mark. Also, I think Carmody owes a great deal to Carril. Carmody took over at Princeton coming off Carril's final year and a monumental NCAA tournament victory over defending champion UCLA. Carmody was set up to succeed at Princeton--and he did. He was successful here only within the context of NU basketball history.

I hope that Carmody is not remembered as a major figure in NU basketball 50 years from now. If that's the case, then we still haven't made the NCAAs or won anything of note. A great man, a terrific coach, entertaining teams, great players, but he didn't take us to the NCAAs. He didn't win any Big Ten titles.
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He should be remembered but hopefully as the guy who set the stage so that others could reach higher rungs rather than the pinnacle of our BB success
 
YesterdaysCat said:
If you are going to quote someone, you should provide a URL or post. If you are going to accuse somebody of being somebody else, you should provide some evidence.

As far as sabotage, when Phillips said that the expectations for the team are the same even with the team's stars injured, I think it's very obvious that he was going to make a change at an opportune time.

I and other Wildcat fans personally witnessed Phillips and Carmody arguing after games on the court. They did not appear to get along, and if they did actually get along, they gave a public impression in front of us that they did not.

When you consider that they did not seem to get along publicly and that Phillips gave Carmody unrealistic expectations given the injury spate, it's highly suggestive that Phillips wanted another coach. Now, you have a nationally known writer who cites increased recruiting and travel budgets coming after Carmody is fired. Then we all know the party line about arena upgrades during Carmody's tenure ("not possible") shifted dramatically under Collins ("possible" and done!).

Perhaps Phillips did not consciously sabotage Carmody, but Phillips wanted another coach and his preference seemed to color his actions and behavior. That's the gentlest way to put it and all of this is evidence based rather than vociferous defense of anybody without regard to the facts.
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BC was the HC under Phillips for what? 5 years? He did not just get rid of him based on one season. Could personality conflict be part of the issue? Sure. While his statement might be construed as a message that NU might go in a different direction at the end of the season, I don't see it as sabotage. As far as increases in budget for recruiting, it appears that CCC asked for it. Did BC? Also CCC was likely a better help in fundraising (BC did not seem to like recruiting. How good do you see him in the fundraising arena) If you help bring in new funds for the program, don't you think that might loosen the purse strings?
 
VirginiaWildcat said:
You wouldn't know anything about a witch hunt, would you, Glades? Lol I just want to know if I'm dealing with the same compulsive liar as before. It's not a witch hunt to ask for a little honesty, no?

As for his points, willy already addressed them nicely. Carmody WAS Phillips guy for several years. But by all means, keep making excuses for a coach that was so well respected he ended up at Holy Cross two seasons after he was let go. The attempts to (still!!) make Carmody a victim by some of the posters here is pretty laughable. Carmody isn't coaching because he was NEVER going to get us to point A, end of story...thus a change was made.

Instead, it was Phillips' fault, the facilities, anything to direct blame elsewhere. Didn't Dr.Jim get him new locker rooms? One could complain that all CCC got was a lousy scoreboard. Lol
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Actually never going to get us to C
 
NUCat320 said:
If big time programs travel exclusively private, and big time programs recruit using exclusively private aircraft, then the three people in charge - as someone else wrote, Big Shon (development), Dr. Jim (department), and CBC (hoops) - were equally at fault for it not having happened.

It's possible that CBC or Shon or Jim were ignorant that this is how teams and recruiters travel. It's also possible that Dr Jim wanted it Big Shon and CBC couldn't shake up the donors, or it's possible that CBC asked (he wouldn't tell us, so we can only speculate) and Dr Jim said that resources should be devoted to Fitz and football, or it's possible that Shon wanted it and Jim wanted it and the donors didn't. Lots of things are possible. CCC's demand and Dr Jim's delivery make the program stronger today than yesterday, at least from an infrastructure standpoint. Why we gotta argue?
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JP came from a smaller program so he would not have known coming in. Basically CCC came from a bigger program where he was used to it and knew the value, wanted it and asked for it and JP delivered, As quickly as it was delivered, have to think it was not asked for before. Maybe because BC felt unsure of his position, couldn't picture the advantage or whatever. In any event, welcome to the big time.
 
hdhntr1 said:
JP came from a smaller program so he would not have known coming in. Basically CCC came from a bigger program where he was used to it and knew the value, wanted it and asked for it and JP delivered, As quickly as it was delivered, have to think it was not asked for before. Maybe because BC felt unsure of his position, couldn't picture the advantage or whatever. In any event, welcome to the big time.
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Shhhhhhhhh!

A couple Decembers ago I was standing on the middle island at O'Hare waiting for a car to pick me up. And out of the terminal (not the chimney) comes the entire Stanford men's basketball team. I think they were playing at the United Center.

So let's keep this private jet thing just among this group so that Collins can use it to his advantage for as long as possible.
 
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hdhntr1 said:
JP came from a smaller program so he would not have known coming in. Basically CCC came from a bigger program where he was used to it and knew the value, wanted it and asked for it and JP delivered, As quickly as it was delivered, have to think it was not asked for before. Maybe because BC felt unsure of his position, couldn't picture the advantage or whatever. In any event, welcome to the big time.
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Yes, but the point is that it's all three - or at least two - at fault. CBC, as you'll recall, came from an even smaller-time program than Dr. Jim. Maybe CBC didn't know. Maybe Dr. Jim didn't know. Or maybe Dr. Jim knew and didn't care. Or maybe CBC knew and didn't care. Lots of possibilities, and it's great that CCC came from a well-resourced program and therefore made the request.
 
hdhntr1 said:
Also CCC was likely a better help in fundraising (BC did not seem to like recruiting. How good do you see him in the fundraising arena) If you help bring in new funds for the program, don't you think that might loosen the purse strings?
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I don't think some people realize just how important this often is...
 
I'm pretty sure NU was flying private to many of the Big Ten games for the last few years of the Carmody regime. The difference might be that it is now SOP and that the private planes are made available for coaches recruiting trips. As was pointed out, the basketball staff got new offices and new locker room for the team so I don't think JP was "sabotaging" Carmody. I feel like BC did a good job but in talking to many of my fellow fans at games the last couple of years of his regime, they seemed to feel a ceiling had been reached, and apathy was beginning to set in. Attendance and enthusiasm has definitely gone up since the change was made.
 
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Weren't the new basketball locker rooms and offices a Murphy project? I thought the locker rooms were done in '07 and the offices were done in summer '08.
 
Styre said:
Weren't the new basketball locker rooms and offices a Murphy project? I thought the locker rooms were done in '07 and the offices were done in summer '08.
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Correct. The Brown Family Basketball Center was a 2007 announcement.
 
VirginiaWildcat said:
And Carmody was the beneficiary...so let's stop with the nothing was ever done to help him baloney.
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This wasn't Phillips' project. That was the poster's point. Why do you dislike Coach Carmody so much? I don't know if you realize it, but it comes off as almost obsessive. You can't say that I'm the same way. I have said many positive things about Phillips, Collins, and Carmody, and some negative things about each person's performance. Your comments are always negative about Carmody and usually despite not having the facts on your side. I just wanted to share with you the way in which your remarks are coming across in case you wish to change. You can say you don't like Coach Carmody and think he deserved to be fired, but sometimes your venom for him and for anybody who posts anything remotely supportive of Bill comes across as very personal and off kilter.
 
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Catreporter said:
I'm pretty sure NU was flying private to many of the Big Ten games for the last few years of the Carmody regime. The difference might be that it is now SOP and that the private planes are made available for coaches recruiting trips. As was pointed out, the basketball staff got new offices and new locker room for the team so I don't think JP was "sabotaging" Carmody. I feel like BC did a good job but in talking to many of my fellow fans at games the last couple of years of his regime, they seemed to feel a ceiling had been reached, and apathy was beginning to set in. Attendance and enthusiasm has definitely gone up since the change was made.
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Sabotage is probably a strong word, but I'm seeing it from Jim's perspective. Men's basketball is a big-ticket sport and we've never made the tournament. Jim is an aggressive guy and knows a lot about basketball. (I believe that he was a basketball manager at U of I?) It must have driven him crazy to watch our team being repeatedly outrebounded and playing such lousy defense. Then he had to deal with Coach Carmody's laid-back attitude toward recruiting and fundraising.

But, Jim had to suck it up because of Bienen and because Carmody was winning games. I don't blame Jim for wanting his own guy and taking the first opportunity to get his own guy in there. I just think subconsciously or intentionally he wasn't in any hurry to upgrade the program itself, knowing that he had to offer a carrot to his own guy.

Again, this is perfectly acceptable strategy. I'm not complaining or whining.
 
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YesterdaysCat said:
This wasn't Phillips' project. That was the poster's point.
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So the point of the poster was....? More BS about how Phillips hated Carmody even though he gave him five years.

And stop acting like you've been nice to Phillips. I still remember your, "Phillips, we see you sweat, boy!" BS. Do you deny saying that? Do you deny saying Phillips is the reason Broja (spelling) wasn't admitted?
 
YesterdaysCat said:
But, Jim had to suck it up because of Bienen and because Carmody was winning games. I don't blame Jim for wanting his own guy and taking the first opportunity to get his own guy in there. I just think subconsciously or intentionally he wasn't in any hurry to upgrade the program itself, knowing that he had to offer a carrot to his own guy.
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I agree almost completely -- the only thing I'd disagree with is the "first opportunity" part, as Phillips could have fired Carmody at any point in those 5 years with exactly the same "B to C" justification. But he didn't, because he knew he would take a massive PR hit for firing an NIT coach at Northwestern.

In the end, though, that strategy might result in a lucky break. Collins almost certainly wouldn't have taken the job back in 2009, and if he turns out to be the guy who gets us over the top, then it all worked out for NU in the end.
 
So let me be up front with a question (and please be up front with an answer). Did Phillips WANT Carmody to fail, thus undermining him in his job? Because that's basically what what's being implied here through so many words...

And isn't it wonderful that Phillips can be criticized, but don't you f'ing dare criticize Carmody (not even once)!! The same Carmody that couldn't even muster up a farewell to the school he coached for 13 seasons. So ridiculous. It's the same group it's always been though. No surprise...
 
VirginiaWildcat said:
So let me be up front with a question (and please be up front with an answer). Did Phillips WANT Carmody to fail, thus undermining him in his job? Because that's basically what what's being implied here through so many words...

And isn't it wonderful that Phillips can be criticized, but don't you f'ing dare criticize Carmody (not even once)!! The same Carmody that couldn't even muster up a farewell to the school he coached for 13 seasons. So ridiculous. It's the same group it's always been though. No surprise...
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Dude.
 
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VirginiaWildcat said:
Too difficult of a simple question to answer, I guess. lol I understand. Phillips didn't want him to succeed. Isn't that the narrative here? If not, please explain otherwise...
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Hey, everybody, did anyone notice that NU Men's Basketball has a game tonight?
 
VirginiaWildcat said:
Too difficult of a simple question to answer, I guess. lol I understand. Phillips didn't want him to succeed. Isn't that the narrative here? If not, please explain otherwise...
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Carmody has been criticized pretty consistently throughout this thread. Phillips wanted his own guy, that doesn't mean he actively sabotaged Carmody or anything like that, but it was pretty obvious he wanted his own guy. This is all that's being said.
 
thewildcat2011 said:
Carmody has been criticized pretty consistently throughout this thread. Phillips wanted his own guy, that doesn't mean he actively sabotaged Carmody or anything like that, but it was pretty obvious he wanted his own guy. This is all that's being said.
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So here's a simple yes/no question. Did Phillips undermine Carmody?
 
VirginiaWildcat said:
So here's a simple yes/no question. Did Phillips undermine Carmody?
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"Let me frame the issue and I shall win the case."

Did Phillips undermine Carmody? Probably not.
Did Phillips fully support Carmody with everything he had? Probably not.

World's not black and white...you're the only one not acknowledging that.
 
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thewildcat2011 said:
Did Phillips undermine Carmody? Probably not!
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I'm good with that. Carmody has no one to blame but himself, and his fans can't repeatedly infer Phillips played some role in his failure to bring NU to the tourney.

There we have it. A genuine ending to this thread...

Let's see if we can pull out a win tonight!
 
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