Where the Cats are, have been, and will be with Collins as coach (revisited)

[eastbaycat99]

Three weeks ago, on the day of the Iowa game, I posted a thread relative to where the Cats and the basketball program were that got some positive and some negative responses. My points were:

1. This year's team has talent but also flaws, and there was a good chance the Cats could end up in the bottom third of the conference, missing postseason play.
2. Next year's team was going to require significant rebuilding with the loss of Law and Pardon, as well as Taylor.
3. While Collins has recruited better athletes than any other coach the Cats have had in my lifetime, his recruiting has not resulted in a complete team: this year it is missing a point guard and a strong forward who can help Pardon against the teams in the B1G that have big front lines.
4. Collins has failed to create an identity for the team that allows him to recruit to advantage.
5. Faced with the possibility of a non-postseason both this year and next, he may be ready to look for another opportunity, and NU may want to start considering another coach (essentially managing him out of the program).

I did point out in my post that because of his Duke, Chicago area and family pedigree, there was probably no other coach who could have gotten the Cats to the Tourney, and he did a remarkable job in doing so. Hence my question was really whether this is the optimal time for him to consider moving on.

In the last three weeks since I wrote that, the Cats have won 2 games (Rutgers and Indiana) and been beaten soundly in four games (Iowa, Michigan, Wisconsin and Maryland), all teams that are clearly superior to them. To their credit, Collins and the team are playing hard, and the performance by Falzon against Indiana, and Collins' reaction to it, was a high point of the season, maybe the high point thus far. In my original post, I said I was having trouble figuring out the identity of the team, but it has become clear since then: it is essentially Duke light, a team that plays excellent perimeter defense, can get out on the open court and run, but has trouble generating open looks in its half court offense and has trouble defending teams with a strong post presence.

Based on all this, I am more convinced that it might be advantageous for Collins to start looking for a position that would build his resume and move him toward what I assume his ultimate goal is, that is, replacing Coach K at Duke. To me, this would be an assistant head coach in the NBA or a coaching gig at a school that could actually support his vision of building a team in Duke's image: perhaps an SEC team if the position was available.

If I was to look for NU's next coach, my preference would be to use Dick Bennett as a prototype. Look to a mid-major team that has advanced based on sound defense, discipline and good floor coaching.. One such coach could by Kyle Smith at University of San Francisco. He has the Dons playing at a high level, has experience coaching in the Ivy League (Columbia), and hence knows the landscape of coaching at a school with high academics.

Again, my point is not to fire Collins, but rather plan a transition to protect his trajectory and build on the success he has had. My fear is that if he has two more non-tournament teams at NU, it both will be hard for him to land the job that keeps him moving up and hard for NU to land a coach who can use the tournament success and facilities upgrade to really put the program on a sound footing.

 

[JournCat]

Again, my point is not to fire Collins, but rather plan a transition to protect his trajectory and build on the success he has had. My fear is that if he has two more non-tournament teams at NU, it both will be hard for him to land the job that keeps him moving up and hard for NU to land a coach who can use the tournament success and facilities upgrade to really put the program on a sound footing.

Sigh. I've been wondering if Collins to the Bulls happens as a face-saving move, even if it causes a city-wide revolt.

 

[willycat]

Three weeks ago, on the day of the Iowa game, I posted a thread relative to where the Cats and the basketball program were that got some positive and some negative responses. My points were:

1. This year's team has talent but also flaws, and there was a good chance the Cats could end up in the bottom third of the conference, missing postseason play.
2. Next year's team was going to require significant rebuilding with the loss of Law and Pardon, as well as Taylor.
3. While Collins has recruited better athletes than any other coach the Cats have had in my lifetime, his recruiting has not resulted in a complete team: this year it is missing a point guard and a strong forward who can help Pardon against the teams in the B1G that have big front lines.
4. Collins has failed to create an identity for the team that allows him to recruit to advantage.
5. Faced with the possibility of a non-postseason both this year and next, he may be ready to look for another opportunity, and NU may want to start considering another coach (essentially managing him out of the program).

I did point out in my post that because of his Duke, Chicago area and family pedigree, there was probably no other coach who could have gotten the Cats to the Tourney, and he did a remarkable job in doing so. Hence my question was really whether this is the optimal time for him to consider moving on.

In the last three weeks since I wrote that, the Cats have won 2 games (Rutgers and Indiana) and been beaten soundly in four games (Iowa, Michigan, Wisconsin and Maryland), all teams that are clearly superior to them. To their credit, Collins and the team are playing hard, and the performance by Falzon against Indiana, and Collins' reaction to it, was a high point of the season, maybe the high point thus far. In my original post, I said I was having trouble figuring out the identity of the team, but it has become clear since then: it is essentially Duke light, a team that plays excellent perimeter defense, can get out on the open court and run, but has trouble generating open looks in its half court offense and has trouble defending teams with a strong post presence.

Based on all this, I am more convinced that it might be advantageous for Collins to start looking for a position that would build his resume and move him toward what I assume his ultimate goal is, that is, replacing Coach K at Duke. To me, this would be an assistant head coach in the NBA or a coaching gig at a school that could actually support his vision of building a team in Duke's image: perhaps an SEC team if the position was available.

If I was to look for NU's next coach, my preference would be to use Dick Bennett as a prototype. Look to a mid-major team that has advanced based on sound defense, discipline and good floor coaching.. One such coach could by Kyle Smith at University of San Francisco. He has the Dons playing at a high level, has experience coaching in the Ivy League (Columbia), and hence knows the landscape of coaching at a school with high academics.

Again, my point is not to fire Collins, but rather plan a transition to protect his trajectory and build on the success he has had. My fear is that if he has two more non-tournament teams at NU, it both will be hard for him to land the job that keeps him moving up and hard for NU to land a coach who can use the tournament success and facilities upgrade to really put the program on a sound footing.

Wow, you are sure assuming an awful lot. Also please we have gone the Ivy league route once and that proved to be enough. Also while I agree that one of the biggest problems is the lack of a true, highly recruited PG, from all appearances that one was out of Collins control. Don't know what really happened with Lathon but do know that the decision happened way to late and he's playing at UTEP.

 

[Fitz51]

We are a program whose greatest achievement is appearing in one NCAA Tourney. That lone appearance does not seem to have moved the needle on where this program actually is in the short term. Chances are, we are just back to being Northwestern Basketball again. It will take a handful of years to see if Collins' recruiting plus the new facilities, etc. has any real affect. If there is one group of fans you would think would know what patience is, it's NU basketball fans.

 

[eastbaycat99]

Wow, you are sure assuming an awful lot. Also please we have gone the Ivy league route once and that proved to be enough. Also while I agree that one of the biggest problems is the lack of a true, highly recruited PG, from all appearances that one was out of Collins control. Don't know what really happened with Lathom but do know that the decision happened way to late.

I don’t think I am wrong in saying there is a good chance the Cats miss the postseason, and run the risk of another poor season next year; therefore, Collins runs the risk of coaching 7 years at NU and missing the postseason in 6 of them. This is not certain, but it is a distinct possibility. If you were him, I think the value of getting out while you are still highly regarded may be greater than anything you gain by having a pretty good year next year when compared to the reputational damage that would come from a bad season next year.

With regards to Kyle Smith, I used him as an example of someone who could fit the Dick Bennett mold since I am familiar with him, living in the Bay Area. The Dons have become a very good team in the few years he has been on the hilltop. It would be worth your while to catch them on ESPN some late night. They gave Gonzaga a really good game about 2 weeks ago. He coached as an assistant at St. Mary’s, which is a good place to learn and at Richmond as well as being head coach at Columbia. I am not necessarily advocating that the Cats run out and get him, but use him as an example that such a person exists, and if NU goes that route, they could find someone solid.

 

[torque-cat]

Three weeks ago, on the day of the Iowa game, I posted a thread relative to where the Cats and the basketball program were that got some positive and some negative responses. My points were:

1. This year's team has talent but also flaws, and there was a good chance the Cats could end up in the bottom third of the conference, missing postseason play.
2. Next year's team was going to require significant rebuilding with the loss of Law and Pardon, as well as Taylor.
3. While Collins has recruited better athletes than any other coach the Cats have had in my lifetime, his recruiting has not resulted in a complete team: this year it is missing a point guard and a strong forward who can help Pardon against the teams in the B1G that have big front lines.
4. Collins has failed to create an identity for the team that allows him to recruit to advantage.
5. Faced with the possibility of a non-postseason both this year and next, he may be ready to look for another opportunity, and NU may want to start considering another coach (essentially managing him out of the program).

I did point out in my post that because of his Duke, Chicago area and family pedigree, there was probably no other coach who could have gotten the Cats to the Tourney, and he did a remarkable job in doing so. Hence my question was really whether this is the optimal time for him to consider moving on.

In the last three weeks since I wrote that, the Cats have won 2 games (Rutgers and Indiana) and been beaten soundly in four games (Iowa, Michigan, Wisconsin and Maryland), all teams that are clearly superior to them. To their credit, Collins and the team are playing hard, and the performance by Falzon against Indiana, and Collins' reaction to it, was a high point of the season, maybe the high point thus far. In my original post, I said I was having trouble figuring out the identity of the team, but it has become clear since then: it is essentially Duke light, a team that plays excellent perimeter defense, can get out on the open court and run, but has trouble generating open looks in its half court offense and has trouble defending teams with a strong post presence.

Based on all this, I am more convinced that it might be advantageous for Collins to start looking for a position that would build his resume and move him toward what I assume his ultimate goal is, that is, replacing Coach K at Duke. To me, this would be an assistant head coach in the NBA or a coaching gig at a school that could actually support his vision of building a team in Duke's image: perhaps an SEC team if the position was available.

If I was to look for NU's next coach, my preference would be to use Dick Bennett as a prototype. Look to a mid-major team that has advanced based on sound defense, discipline and good floor coaching.. One such coach could by Kyle Smith at University of San Francisco. He has the Dons playing at a high level, has experience coaching in the Ivy League (Columbia), and hence knows the landscape of coaching at a school with high academics.

Again, my point is not to fire Collins, but rather plan a transition to protect his trajectory and build on the success he has had. My fear is that if he has two more non-tournament teams at NU, it both will be hard for him to land the job that keeps him moving up and hard for NU to land a coach who can use the tournament success and facilities upgrade to really put the program on a sound footing.

I hope Collins stays. His first full cycle of recruits got us our first ever tourney bid, raised our profile with other recruits (see Nance, Kopp, Beran) and got us a beautiful arena and facilities. This year's roster is a long, athletic, versatile and has the 2nd highest NET/Kenpom ratings in our history (only to the tourney team) but the big ten is brutal and rather than being above average in a typical year we are #10 of 14 teams so far. The next cycle of recruits will take over next year as Law/Pardon graduate. I trust CC will be able to leverage the tourney bid, talent trajectory (at least three 4 star underclassmen), new facilities and beautiful arena to keep things going upward. There is year-to-year variation but fans over-react to every season (not to mention each game). Collins is also a local kid with a phenomenal resume (McD All-American, Illinois POY, Duke player, National Champion, son of NBA coach) who seems to want to build his legacy here. I hope he has more stomach for ups and downs and the fortitude to stick it out, because any program build like this takes time. Fitz had his down years and frankly will have more, but patience paid off. (CC could use an X's and O's genius like Hank for our offense btw). Excited to watch CC here for a long time.

 

[cometclear]

Probably too big of a risk by taking a flyer on coach who hasn't been a head coach at this level. Find an experienced coach on the rebound. We've all had some fun at Tom Crean's expense, but Georgia did well to hire him and it's already paying dividends for them. That sort of situation.

And, no, I'm not suggesting Alford.

 

[NUCatswin]

Three weeks ago, on the day of the Iowa game, I posted a thread relative to where the Cats and the basketball program were that got some positive and some negative responses. My points were:

1. This year's team has talent but also flaws, and there was a good chance the Cats could end up in the bottom third of the conference, missing postseason play.
2. Next year's team was going to require significant rebuilding with the loss of Law and Pardon, as well as Taylor.
3. While Collins has recruited better athletes than any other coach the Cats have had in my lifetime, his recruiting has not resulted in a complete team: this year it is missing a point guard and a strong forward who can help Pardon against the teams in the B1G that have big front lines.
4. Collins has failed to create an identity for the team that allows him to recruit to advantage.
5. Faced with the possibility of a non-postseason both this year and next, he may be ready to look for another opportunity, and NU may want to start considering another coach (essentially managing him out of the program).

I did point out in my post that because of his Duke, Chicago area and family pedigree, there was probably no other coach who could have gotten the Cats to the Tourney, and he did a remarkable job in doing so. Hence my question was really whether this is the optimal time for him to consider moving on.

In the last three weeks since I wrote that, the Cats have won 2 games (Rutgers and Indiana) and been beaten soundly in four games (Iowa, Michigan, Wisconsin and Maryland), all teams that are clearly superior to them. To their credit, Collins and the team are playing hard, and the performance by Falzon against Indiana, and Collins' reaction to it, was a high point of the season, maybe the high point thus far. In my original post, I said I was having trouble figuring out the identity of the team, but it has become clear since then: it is essentially Duke light, a team that plays excellent perimeter defense, can get out on the open court and run, but has trouble generating open looks in its half court offense and has trouble defending teams with a strong post presence.

Based on all this, I am more convinced that it might be advantageous for Collins to start looking for a position that would build his resume and move him toward what I assume his ultimate goal is, that is, replacing Coach K at Duke. To me, this would be an assistant head coach in the NBA or a coaching gig at a school that could actually support his vision of building a team in Duke's image: perhaps an SEC team if the position was available.

If I was to look for NU's next coach, my preference would be to use Dick Bennett as a prototype. Look to a mid-major team that has advanced based on sound defense, discipline and good floor coaching.. One such coach could by Kyle Smith at University of San Francisco. He has the Dons playing at a high level, has experience coaching in the Ivy League (Columbia), and hence knows the landscape of coaching at a school with high academics.

Again, my point is not to fire Collins, but rather plan a transition to protect his trajectory and build on the success he has had. My fear is that if he has two more non-tournament teams at NU, it both will be hard for him to land the job that keeps him moving up and hard for NU to land a coach who can use the tournament success and facilities upgrade to really put the program on a sound footing.

If you're collins is going to a SEC team truly an upgrade? Kentucky sure but that's not open. NU pays collins "North of 3 million" (source: https://www.chicagotribune.com/spor...ions-greenstein-spt-0426-20170425-column.html) which from both the tribune and the USA today appears to be a top 15 salary in College basketball. (USA Today: http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/salaries/mens-basketball/coach/) (also keep in mind private school salaries aren't public which is why Collins is showing much less than USA today, but i'd trust Teddy on this. The only SEC school "North of 3 million" is UK.

 

[eastbaycat99]

If you're collins is going to a SEC team truly an upgrade? Kentucky sure but that's not open. NU pays collins "North of 3 million" (source: https://www.chicagotribune.com/spor...ions-greenstein-spt-0426-20170425-column.html) which from both the tribune and the USA today appears to be a top 15 salary in College basketball. (USA Today: http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/salaries/mens-basketball/coach/) (also keep in mind private school salaries aren't public which is why Collins is showing much less than USA today, but i'd trust Teddy on this. The only SEC school "North of 3 million" is UK.

I would say Floria, Georgia, Arkansas and LSU are all places he could coach, build a team around his design, and win consistently. The motivation isn’t salary compared to NU. It is a place he can demonstrate consistent success to step toward the Duke job. His alternative is an NBA gig.

 

[NUCat320]

As I was watching last night, the question of “What is NU hoops’ identity?” crossed my mind. I guess we aspire to be Virginia - defending the three-point line and whatnot. But I’m not really sure.

This question is compounded by the fact that I have no idea what “Pound the Rock” means. I don’t think it is intended to mean “dribble aimlessly and without plan before getting up a contested shot”, but that’s what it feels like sometimes.

 

[willycat]

I don’t think I am wrong in saying there is a good chance the Cats miss the postseason, and run the risk of another poor season next year; therefore, Collins runs the risk of coaching 7 years at NU and missing the postseason in 6 of them. This is not certain, but it is a distinct possibility. If you were him, I think the value of getting out while you are still highly regarded may be greater than anything you gain by having a pretty good year next year when compared to the reputational damage that would come from a bad season next year.

With regards to Kyle Smith, I used him as an example of someone who could fit the Dick Bennett mold since I am familiar with him, living in the Bay Area. The Dons have become a very good team in the few years he has been on the hilltop. It would be worth your while to catch them on ESPN some late night. They gave Gonzaga a really good game about 2 weeks ago. He coached as an assistant at St. Mary’s, which is a good place to learn and at Richmond as well as being head coach at Columbia. I am not necessarily advocating that the Cats run out and get him, but use him as an example that such a person exists, and if NU goes that route, they could find someone solid.

Gee this terribly unsuccessful should think about moving on while he has value. Gee, what is it , terrible coach or one with great value???

 

[hdhntr1]

I would say Floria, Georgia, Arkansas and LSU are all places he could coach, build a team around his design, and win consistently. The motivation isn’t salary compared to NU. It is a place he can demonstrate consistent success to step toward the Duke job. His alternative is an NBA gig.

Why would anyone want to step into that Duke job when Coach K retires? There is no way that the person can really be successful. Being outstanding only gets you to maybe breakeven and anything less and they are looking for your head. Here he can take the time to develop the program making a couple mistakes along the way, He will be remember always as the guy that took us to the dance (sort of like Barnett taking us to Pasedena) He got us a new area that likely would not have happened without him. He is recruiting well but having no PG (not his fault) and injured Law sure are not doing him any favors but still he has a nice class coming in. And the BIG will not always be as tough as it is this year. He is trying to Man Up against the rest of the BIG and we are just a little short on the ready talent for that battle. We are getting there but so far it has been one step forward and one back. I think that the loss of Baldwin has hurt more than we know but he still has some pretty good assistants and that he will learn from mistakes and get us to a competitive level pretty quickly.

 

[eastbaycat99]

Gee this terribly unsuccessful should think about moving on while he has value. Gee, what is it , terrible coach or one with great value???

He was the right person at a particular time for the Cats. As I said, because of his Duke/Chicago/family pedigree he could come in, make a persuasive pitch to players like Law and Pardon to come to a school that did not have a history of success, and do something extraordinary. Think of him as a turn around guy. The question I raised is whether he is the right guy for NU now that they have both a trip to the tournament and a new facility. I don’t think this is in any way a self-contradictory thought.

 

[eastbaycat99]

Why would anyone want to step into that Duke job when Coach K retires? There is no way that the person can really be successful. Being outstanding only gets you to maybe breakeven and anything less and they are looking for your head. Here he can take the time to develop the program making a couple mistakes along the way, He will be remember always as the guy that took us to the dance (sort of like Barnett taking us to Pasedena) He got us a new area that likely would not have happened without him. He is recruiting well but having no PG (not his fault) and injured Law sure are not doing him any favors but still he has a nice class coming in. And the BIG will not always be as tough as it is this year. He is trying to Man Up against the rest of the BIG and we are just a little short on the ready talent for that battle. We are getting there but so far it has been one step forward and one back. I think that the loss of Baldwin has hurt more than we know but he still has some pretty good assistants and that he will learn from mistakes and get us to a competitive level pretty quickly.

There are a handful of truly top positions in college basketball, and Duke is one of them. If you are talented and ambitious, which I think Collins is, to aspire to the head coaching job there makes perfect sense. My guess is that he would figure that at Duke he could consistently make the final 4. Like he was uniquely positioned to get the Cats to the tournament, he could well be positioned as one of few people who could be successful following Coach K at Duke, if he makes the right moves to create the opportunity. The logical moves would be either turning around an NBA team or winning championships at a power conference school.

 

[hdhntr1]

As I was watching last night, the question of “What is NU hoops’ identity?” crossed my mind. I guess we aspire to be Virginia - defending the three-point line and whatnot. But I’m not really sure.

This question is compounded by the fact that I have no idea what “Pound the Rock” means. I don’t think it is intended to mean “dribble aimlessly and without plan before getting up a contested shot”, but that’s what it feels like sometimes.

It means work hard and continue to work hard even though you initially do not see the results. Keep pounding away and eventually the rock breaks. He knew coming into this year it would be a challenge without a true point. THe coaching staff put together the team the best they knew how but without the guys that can drive the BB to a point to challenge the D and create openings it will look somewhat stagnant. We have just gone through a gauntlet of teams that we do not match up particularly well with exposing our weaknesses. But when those areas are addressed next year... Yes we will miss Pardon. Maybe Taylor. Law i a question mark because based on his normal performance he will be greatly missed but based on the last month, not as much,

 

[torque-cat]

He was the right person at a particular time for the Cats. As I said, because of his Duke/Chicago/family pedigree he could come in, make a persuasive pitch to players like Law and Pardon to come to a school that did not have a history of success, and do something extraordinary. Think of him as a turn around guy. The question I raised is whether he is the right guy for NU now that they have both a trip to the tournament and a new facility. I don’t think this is in any way a self-contradictory thought.

I see no reason to distinguish turnaround guy bs long term guy. He’s not a used car salesman who lands recruits on short term promises, has a good season then bolts. KON was a known turnaround guy. CC seems to deeply care about his players and doing things the right way. As coach Ks right hand guy he could’ve gone a lot of places, but was deeply emotional about coming to Northwestern. So to answer your question, he absolutely is the long term guy. We could’ve run Fitz outta here with similar logic after a couple tough seasons, but glad we didn’t.

 

[eastbaycat99]

I see no reason to distinguish turnaround guy bs long term guy. He’s not a used car salesman who lands recruits on short term promises, has a good season then bolts. KON was a known turnaround guy. CC seems to deeply care about his players and doing things the right way. As coach Ks right hand guy he could’ve gone a lot of places, but was deeply emotional about coming to Northwestern. So to answer your question, he absolutely is the long term guy. We could’ve run Fitz outta here with similar logic after a couple tough seasons, but glad we didn’t.

You are basically asking Phillips to bet the program’s future and Collins to bet his career on the assumption you are right, and I respect that. I think both needto buy into that. From my perspective, as I have laid out, I think there is a mismatch between Collins and NU in the long run. I Was not sure the Duke blueprint was his operating guide prior to this year. Based on what I have seen (including the recruitment and use of Taylor and Turner, I think it is, and I respect that. As I have said, I think the best chance for long term success at NU is following a Dick Bennett-like blueprint, but that is just my opinion. As this year and next roll out, we will get to see if both Collins and Phillips stay the course and if they do, if you are right.

 

[TheC]

After the 2016 season, I thought CC was a wizard. After last year and this... I wonder if he can coach at all. The truth is likely in the middle. He certainly seems to be able to coach defense. We play really nice D despite having lesser athletes and lesser size (or the combination of both) at most positions. However, I think even a wizard would struggle to turn the pumpkin that is our guys' offensive skill into a crystal carriage (I'm not sure if that analogy worked). My theory is that CC wanted to go for broke with high level recruits. In the end, he missed out on a lot and was left with slim pickings or he reached for kids that were highly rated, but based more on potential than on demonstrated skill. So far, that potential has not been realized (Falzon, Rap, Benson (ugh)) and the places where he struck out (think guard) has really hurt us. So, in the end, I'm not sure what to think about him. I think he took a chance on jumpstarting this program and it backfired a bit, but the recruiting classes in '18 and '19 are promising, so I'm ok with letting him go a bit longer to see if we progress.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

We are a program whose greatest achievement is appearing in one NCAA Tourney. That lone appearance does not seem to have moved the needle on where this program actually is in the short term. Chances are, we are just back to being Northwestern Basketball again. It will take a handful of years to see if Collins' recruiting plus the new facilities, etc. has any real affect. If there is one group of fans you would think would know what patience is, it's NU basketball fans.

Patience. There was a firestorm on these boards to jettison Fitz after 2014.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

Why would anyone want to step into that Duke job when Coach K retires? There is no way that the person can really be successful. Being outstanding only gets you to maybe breakeven and anything less and they are looking for your head. Here he can take the time to develop the program making a couple mistakes along the way, He will be remember always as the guy that took us to the dance (sort of like Barnett taking us to Pasedena) He got us a new area that likely would not have happened without him. He is recruiting well but having no PG (not his fault) and injured Law sure are not doing him any favors but still he has a nice class coming in. And the BIG will not always be as tough as it is this year. He is trying to Man Up against the rest of the BIG and we are just a little short on the ready talent for that battle. We are getting there but so far it has been one step forward and one back. I think that the loss of Baldwin has hurt more than we know but he still has some pretty good assistants and that he will learn from mistakes and get us to a competitive level pretty quickly.

You would have to have your head examined to take the Duke job after Coach K. No win situation unless you win the Natty every other year. Good luck.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

He was the right person at a particular time for the Cats. As I said, because of his Duke/Chicago/family pedigree he could come in, make a persuasive pitch to players like Law and Pardon to come to a school that did not have a history of success, and do something extraordinary. Think of him as a turn around guy. The question I raised is whether he is the right guy for NU now that they have both a trip to the tournament and a new facility. I don’t think this is in any way a self-contradictory thought.

Maybe not contradictory, but suggesting he bail while he still has a decent reputation in my mind insults the man. What Coach worth his salt would ever think this way? I would bet my house that CCC expects and thinks he will have sustained success at NU. This program is light years better than it was under the previous Coach where some got excited because we "schemed" our way to a few improbable wins. The pitchforks and lighted stakes will come out next year in full force as we won't be good. However, we should have a strong contender when the current class are Juniors and thereafter.

 

[eastbaycat99]

You would have to have your head examined to take the Duke job after Coach K. No win situation unless you win the Natty every other year. Good luck.

If you are an ambitious guy like Collins, the chance to win a national championship could well override the thought you might fail, I think.

 

[Fitz51]

This question is compounded by the fact that I have no idea what “Pound the Rock” means. I don’t think it is intended to mean “dribble aimlessly and without plan before getting up a contested shot”, but that’s what it feels like sometimes.

https://changingthegameproject.com/pound-the-rock/

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

You are basically asking Phillips to bet the program’s future and Collins to bet his career on the assumption you are right, and I respect that. I think both needto buy into that. From my perspective, as I have laid out, I think there is a mismatch between Collins and NU in the long run. I Was not sure the Duke blueprint was his operating guide prior to this year. Based on what I have seen (including the recruitment and use of Taylor and Turner, I think it is, and I respect that. As I have said, I think the best chance for long term success at NU is following a Dick Bennett-like blueprint, but that is just my opinion. As this year and next roll out, we will get to see if both Collins and Phillips stay the course and if they do, if you are right.

No, Phillips career is always going to be primarily measured by the success of his revenue programs. This is true of all AD's. How much heat is Whitman taking for Lovie and Underwood? A lot. Phillips has given zero indication that he has issues with CCC.

I have no idea what you mean by a mismatch between Collins and NU. What does the recruitment and use of Taylor and Turner have in common with the Duke "Blueprint" (whatever that is). Has CCC expressed any known interest in advancing to the NBA or a Blue Blood program? Not every Coach wants to move to that level and it's not because they are not career orientated. See Fitz. We finally have an energetic good young Coach that WANTS to be at NU, actually recruits players that are wanted at other high level programs and we suggest he bails before the going gets too tough. You are talking about a program that has NEVER made it to the Dance prior to CCC. Hardly a traditional powerhouse, but you would think he had the advantages of Kansas in putting together a team.

Again, this guy is far from perfect, but he fits here very well. Nearly every school in the country would love to find a young Dick Bennett. If it was easy, they would all do it. I could give a multiple of examples where schools thought they has that young Dick Bennett only to launch him a few years later.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

If you are an ambitious guy like Collins, the chance to win a national championship could well override the thought you might fail, I think.

You could be right EBC. None of us know what is in CCC head. I think you can still be an ambitious guy and set your sites on making NU a perennial contender. In fact, it can be argued that this is much more ambitious than taking a historical powerhouse like Duke and keeping it at a National Championship level.

 

[zeek55]

@eastbaycat99

I like your posts, but this seems way too premature to consider. This whole thing is a radical overreaction to some short-term struggles.

We always knew this was a multi-year rebuild after the tournament run (at least I always felt that way), and that's significantly more true after the Lathon situation.


Let's wait until CCC puts together a complete team again before we judge him. This team is not a final product and won't be for another two years probably.

CCC's trajectory here is similar to Fitz's...; bowl win followed by 2 years missing bowls, then a great 4 year run. CCC doesn't yet have the team for a great multi-year run so there's going to be struggles here and there in a loaded Big Ten.


There is no mismatch between Collins and Northwestern. At least not that I've seen yet; it's just a situation where we don't have the players to make the kinds of deep tournament runs that we all hope to enjoy in the future.


As far as Duke goes, you never want to be the guy after "the guy". Nobody can fill the shoes that Coach K will leave open.


Regardless, CCC can build a deeper and broader legacy here over a 20+ year period than he can at Duke. I think that matters to him, but nobody knows what he thinks about these types of things. If he bolts, I'd wish him well, but at the same time, I hope he'd see the upside that he could enjoy here if he sticks it out until he has teams that are ready to set us on a higher trajectory (as we hope to have in the next 2-3 years).

 

[NJCat]

Regardless, CCC can build a deeper and broader legacy here over a 20+ year period than he can at Duke. I think that matters to him, but nobody knows what he thinks about these types of things. .

In the interviews and podcasts I've listened to, it seems like Collins is really into creating his own legacy of success. Going to Duke wouldn't build anything for him, there is no upside to following K. He may not be a lifer at NU, but I think he is competitive and likes challenges so if he leaves it won't be for Duke.

 

[zeek55]

In the interviews and podcasts I've listened to, it seems like Collins is really into creating his own legacy of success. Going to Duke wouldn't build anything for him, there is no upside to following K. He may not be a lifer at NU, but I think he is competitive and likes challenges so if he leaves it won't be for Duke.

Yeah, I've heard him say all those things too, but at the same time, that could be coach-speak in a general sense because he's never been tested on that question.

I always want to give the benefit of the doubt, but the difference between Fitz and CCC is Fitz is one of us. I never worry about Fitz leaving here. Doesn't matter if the NFL or Alabama or whoever calls, I don't worry about Fitz leaving NU.


With CCC, the ultimate test to me is when the Duke job comes open and they offer it to him; if he passes on it, then yeah I think we can say CCC has become one of us. If not, we wish him well there.

 

[torque-cat]

You are basically asking Phillips to bet the program’s future and Collins to bet his career on the assumption you are right, and I respect that. I think both needto buy into that. From my perspective, as I have laid out, I think there is a mismatch between Collins and NU in the long run. I Was not sure the Duke blueprint was his operating guide prior to this year. Based on what I have seen (including the recruitment and use of Taylor and Turner, I think it is, and I respect that. As I have said, I think the best chance for long term success at NU is following a Dick Bennett-like blueprint, but that is just my opinion. As this year and next roll out, we will get to see if both Collins and Phillips stay the course and if they do, if you are right.

"You are basically asking Phillips to bet the program’s future and Collins to bet his career on the assumption you are right"

I'm saying that losing the coach who got us our only tourney bid in 80 yrs would be risking the program's future much more than letting him continue to build with his second cycle of recruits.

 

[IdahoAlum]

I think, eastbay, you are digressing with all this talk about Collins leaving so he can eventually work his way back to Duke. I don't think Collins is going anywhere (right now, who at a Top 10 program would hire him, given the recent struggles of this program?), and I don't think NU has any thoughts whatsoever about nudging him out the door. The program and Collins are "married" for the foreseeable future.

I think the more pertinent question is can Collins turn this NU program into a consistent post-season contender? I'd say the jury is still very much out on that, especially given the crash-and-burn of last season, when expectations were so high, the current "rebuild" season and the dim prospects for next year without our two best players. It absolutely is too soon to "give up" on Collins. But it is absolutely time to start asking hard questions, such as, "If Collins goes to one post-season in 7 years, does that impact his ability to recruit?" "Can Collins coach an efficient (or even entertaining) offense?" "Can Collins figure out how to win close games?" "What is his vision (identity) for the NU program?" "Will he have a true PG next year?" "Will he have a Big Ten quality center?" "And what are the true ceilings for this year's freshmen, who came in so highly touted but haven't really established themselves yet?"

 

[NUCat320]

For what it’s worth, Wojo has an easier job but is definitely ahead of Collins in post-Duke success. I don’t know if he ever floor-slaps on the sidelines. Maybe on the sneakers weekend.

 

[eastbaycat99]

"You are basically asking Phillips to bet the program’s future and Collins to bet his career on the assumption you are right"

I'm saying that losing the coach who got us our only tourney bid in 80 yrs would be risking the program's future much more than letting him continue to build with his second cycle of recruits.

And if he doesn’t make post season this year and next, youhave lost the momentum the facility investment brought. You then have a coach who has made a tournament once in 7 years whose recruiting pitch is that he is building a top level program is contradicted by his results.

The two things an AD gets to play are facility upgrades and coaching changes. Phillips player the facility card. If the Cats don’t improve, he will not be able to play it again for about 10 years. Who coaches the next 3 is a critical choice. I respect those who say it should be Collins, but at this point, I don’t agree with them

 

[Sec.112]

He was the right person at a particular time for the Cats ...

Personally, my favorite part of this thread is the reference to Collins in the past tense - less than two years after a historic run. Oh well.

As for the Collins/Duke discussion, you might want to take into consideration the thoughts of Dana Ford, a pretty well respected college basketball writer for The Athletic.

In the preseason, somebody asked her who was most ready (I believe was the term) of the usual suspects to replace Coach K. Mike Brey was the choice, but she doesn't think he will leave ND. Her choice was Wojo at Marquette. She also talked about Capel and someone else. Collins wasn't even in the discussion.

P.S. I'll put my money on Billy Donovan.

Lastly, eastbay, I must have missed your all your support when I repeatedly mentioned Greg Gard as a Carmody replacement six and seven years ago.

 

[Sec.112]

... I think the more pertinent question is can Collins turn this NU program into a consistent post-season contender? ...

Before you ask 400 questions about Collins in particular, I think the real questions are:

a) What is the definition of a consistent post-season contender at NU?
b) Is that the next step or is there something in between?

I think eastbay is an example that people's expectation are a bit off the rails in this time of change (fingers crossed). Personally, I think people are STONED if they think the program is at a point where you can expect an NCAA tournament more than once every 3-5 years.

I'm sure I'm in the minority, but I don't care about NITs.

Get an NCAA tournament once every four or five years, and that's a nice next step.

 

[willycat]

Yeah, I've heard him say all those things too, but at the same time, that could be coach-speak in a general sense because he's never been tested on that question.

I always want to give the benefit of the doubt, but the difference between Fitz and CCC is Fitz is one of us. I never worry about Fitz leaving here. Doesn't matter if the NFL or Alabama or whoever calls, I don't worry about Fitz leaving NU.


With CCC, the ultimate test to me is when the Duke job comes open and they offer it to him; if he passes on it, then yeah I think we can say CCC has become one of us. If not, we wish him well there.

Think it has been stated that at least to other assistants from Duke are considered over Collins when K retires. Also think that Chris may have his future sights set on a job in the NBA rather then college. His dad may have a lot to do about that.

 

[IdahoAlum]

Before you ask 400 questions about Collins in particular, I think the real questions are:

a) What is the definition of a consistent post-season contender at NU?
b) Is that the next step or is there something in between?

I think eastbay is an example that people's expectation are a bit off the rails in this time of change (fingers crossed). Personally, I think people are STONED if they think the program is at a point where you can expect an NCAA tournament more than once every 3-5 years.

I'm sure I'm in the minority, but I don't care about NITs.

Get an NCAA tournament once every four or five years, and that's a nice next step.

How about 1 NCAA tournament every 7 years? Does that work for you? I’d say that’s a high probability of the reality after next season. And it’s fine if you don’t care about the NIT, but if what we are looking at is one post-season every five years, is that why we built a new arena, or why we are paying Collins more than $3 million a year? Do you think Collins and Phillips will be satisfied with one post season every five years?

 

[NUCat320]

a) What is the definition of a consistent post-season contender at NU?
b) Is that the next step or is there something in between?

I think eastbay is an example that people's expectation are a bit off the rails in this time of change (fingers crossed). Personally, I think people are STONED if they think the program is at a point where you can expect an NCAA tournament more than once every 3-5 years.

I'm sure I'm in the minority, but I don't care about NITs.

Get an NCAA tournament once every four or five years, and that's a nice next step.

While I agree that NIT’s are worthless and I don’t care, I’m shocked at how low your standards are.

Not expecting to be at a point where NU should make an NCAA tournament every 3-5 years means that your expectation is that NU should, uhh, at *best* be expected to make the tournament every six years. That’s better than Rutgers, and maybe Penn State, but that’s pretty much it.

I don’t know how different the conversation would be if NU hadn’t made the tournament in 2017.

I’m really disappointed in this season, but more disappointed that NU’s next chance at a good team will be 2021 (and more likely 2022).

Recruiting or development has to get better. Period. Because there is no system - the system is “have better players.”

 

[zeek55]

Before you ask 400 questions about Collins in particular, I think the real questions are:

a) What is the definition of a consistent post-season contender at NU?
b) Is that the next step or is there something in between?

I think eastbay is an example that people's expectation are a bit off the rails in this time of change (fingers crossed). Personally, I think people are STONED if they think the program is at a point where you can expect an NCAA tournament more than once every 3-5 years.

I'm sure I'm in the minority, but I don't care about NITs.

Get an NCAA tournament once every four or five years, and that's a nice next step.

I'm not sure that's the right kind of mindset here. The mindset we need is that we want the program to get to a rolling capacity where we're drawing enough good recruits and developing them well enough to make the tournament most years in a decade.

We're clearly not there, but I still believe CCC can get us there in the next 3-4 years.

Once we have enough talent in the pipeline and are developing that talent; we should be ready to roll (by 2021-2022).


I really don't think the right mindset is making the tournament once every X number of years, but rather when will we get to having a program that can regularly make the tournament.

To me, this is what we need CCC's future to look like here:

2019 - no postseason
2020 - no postseason
2021 - NIT
2022 - NCAA
2023 - NCAA
2024 - no postseason
2025 - NCAA
2026 - NCAA
2027 - NCAA
2028 - NIT
2029 - NCAA


That's what I think we should expect for the next 10 years of Northwestern basketball if CCC is as successful as we think he should be.

 

[eastbaycat99]

Personally, my favorite part of this thread is the reference to Collins in the past tense - less than two years after a historic run. Oh well.

As for the Collins/Duke discussion, you might want to take into consideration the thoughts of Dana Ford, a pretty well respected college basketball writer for The Athletic.

In the preseason, somebody asked her who was most ready (I believe was the term) of the usual suspects to replace Coach K. Mike Brey was the choice, but she doesn't think he will leave ND. Her choice was Wojo at Marquette. She also talked about Capel and someone else. Collins wasn't even in the discussion.

P.S. I'll put my money on Billy Donovan.

Lastly, eastbay, I must have missed your all your support when I repeatedly mentioned Greg Gard as a Carmody replacement six and seven years ago.

I used the past tense because I was talking about the time at which Carmody was being replaced and that Collins was a very good choice. I did not voice any opinion about a replacement at the time of hiring as I was dealing with other non Cats stuff Then, but Gard would have been a great choice if the Cats could have landed him; I have no dea if the Cats had a legitimate chance to do so.

 

[NUCat320]

The goal should be that not competing for an NCAA bid is considered failure.