Which NU QBs (since '95) would you choose to compete for a BT and National Title
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Persa is 10th on the list all time great NU QB's. Thorson is #1. Persa got injured. Stop arguing a hypothetical.
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Persa has the best season and was the most dynamic. His junior year was great, primarily because he was Hodini getting away from the rush. However, I like winning games, and NU was what 7-6 that year. His Senior year was not the same as he was robbed of his mobility. If I recall correctly he rarely ran. NU also was in the 500 range. This isn’t intended to be a Persa bash because I like just about everyone thought he was terrific. However, Thorson has to be strongly considered for the best. I have him comfortablely ahead of Kafka, CJ and Trevor. I have him slightly over Persa and Kustok. Right up there with my biased favorite of Baz.
NU lost its last 3 games after Persa went down. I believe he would've won 2 if not all 3 games if he didn't get injured. So that also points to his value as a QB, going 7-3 with a mediocre team, with a chance to be 10-3 that year.
That was the description of Hughes in Athlon or Street and Smith's that year. That is why those descriptions were in quotes. Sheesh.
I take it back Corbi. Persa is wholly underappreciated and it's astounding.
Persa, Baz, Siemian, Thorson, Kustok, Bacher, Kafka
(Based on “when healthy” for all)
I sympathize with putting Zak at 3, but I think he seriously benefited from having Damien and that innovative offense. He was a heck of a competitor with clutch plays late in games. But Thorson has been too - see Nebraska this year.
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I was gonna like this message bc that scramble against Michigan was so incredible, and his play all day. But then to put Thorson #1, above Persa, I had to hold off...
over the years it seems like all our qbs have had to run...out of necessity.....but was our first real dual-threat Lenny WIlliams?
https://www.rrstar.com/x1087082908/Ex-Guilford-standout-Len-Williams-played-like-todays-NFL-QBs
https://www.rrstar.com/x1087082908/Ex-Guilford-standout-Len-Williams-played-like-todays-NFL-QBs
Fair enough. Thorson gets my vote partly because of recency bias, partly because he won three bowl games (and 33 others games) and a division title. Yes, I know he doesn't deserve ALL of the credit for those achievements (hello great defenses!), but that's what I want out of my QB.
I know wins are not the end-all/be-all of QBs, but I'll take it. Persa's peak was better, but I'll take the longevity and wins. I'm just glad there are enough good candidates to have a fun debate.
I was replying to the comment that NU only finished 7-6 during Persa's junior year. When he blew out his Achilles vs. Iowa on the winning TD, NU got to 7-3. The last 3 games of that season were the Wrigley Field loss to LOLinois, the blowout loss at Madison, and the bowl loss to TT. I would argue that we would've won at least 2 out of 3, if not 3 out of 3, if Persa did not get injured and had his season cut short.
I was at that blowout in Madison, and we wouldn't have won that game if there had been two Persas. In fairness, we had NO sufficient backup, but in general we were no match for the Badgers that year.
Disagree.
If we're talking about careers then yes, Thorson win's by a country mile.
If I could have any one of the post-95 QB's healthy, I'd take Persa. It's not even close.
Well the question just asks which QB. So based on ability and intangibles , I’d pick Persa.
I think the team fell apart after Persa's injury. I can't help think how badly we would've lost to other teams like Iowa that year if we didn't have Persa. He made that much difference.
Agreed. Persa carried that team on his back. Anyone who doesn’t think our recruiting and depth is light years ahead of what it was as recently as five years ago just needs to compare the roster while Persia was there to our current roster. No contest.
Persa with our current defense and RBs like JJ/Larkin and Bowser would have been something. Then again we don't have any WRs nearly as talented as Ebert. I think with Persa healthy, he and Ebert break a lot of records and frankly I think Ebert gets a much better look in the NFL. It was hard to maximize him with Kain being more of a runner.
I know I already responded to this post, but I didn't have time to address it adequately the first time. A couple of reactions:
First, I find the focus on cumulative career yards or TDs to miss the point of the OP. The question is which post-'95 QB you would choose to compete for a B1G and national title. I think that allows you to choose the snapshot of a pre-injury Persa. And saying one player was "greater" than the other because he played longer without serious injury strikes me as being the same as what Trump said about preferring heroes who didn't get caught. (Sorry for the political reference; it just seemed apt.)
Second, if you look at averages and ratings, rather than the fact that one guy started for four years rather than less than two (and therefore obviously had higher cumulative yards and TDs), the answer becomes clear. Persa's career completion percentage was an astounding 72.7%, while Thorson's was 58.4%. Persa's TD/INT ratio was 34/13, while Thorson's was 61/45. Persa's QB rating was 155.0, while Thorson's was 118.1. Moreover, in his one year as starter before his achilles injury, Persa even rushed for 519 yards (which I assume might be net of sacks).
Third, to the extent you are focusing on total career wins and bowl victories, Thorson played with a much better defense and with better RB help.
And I am not trying to disrespect Thorson at all. He was a real warrior for us--a great player and person. It's just that due to recency bias and cumulative numbers, we sometimes tend to forget how good Persa was.
I actually thought they were deficient in both eras. Persa took a lot fewer sacks because of his Houdini-like escapability.
Ebert was great but we have several good WRs on this team. Football is a game of attrition. You need quality and depth in order to have sustained success.
I really don't understand the point of all these posts analyzing our QB play recently (not attacking the merits of this one specifically but others).
Some have been targeted explicitly at CT to diminish him, which seems foolish given what the guy gave to this program.
The only thing that matters to me is winning and longevity. That's it; I don't care about style points; maybe that will change if we're in the national title hunt someday, but right now style points mean nothing. We need as many Ws as we can get, whether in overtime or by multiple touchdowns in regulation. Right now they all count the same. I don't care if we beat Rutgers by 3 points or Minnesota by 39.
As far as our best QBs go, if I needed a guy who can basically carry an offense singlehandedly, it's got to be Persa.
But nobody beats CT in terms of his longevity and commitment to working hard for this program and making winning plays in tight games over 4 years.
Some have been targeted explicitly at CT to diminish him, which seems foolish given what the guy gave to this program.
The only thing that matters to me is winning and longevity. That's it; I don't care about style points; maybe that will change if we're in the national title hunt someday, but right now style points mean nothing. We need as many Ws as we can get, whether in overtime or by multiple touchdowns in regulation. Right now they all count the same. I don't care if we beat Rutgers by 3 points or Minnesota by 39.
As far as our best QBs go, if I needed a guy who can basically carry an offense singlehandedly, it's got to be Persa.
But nobody beats CT in terms of his longevity and commitment to working hard for this program and making winning plays in tight games over 4 years.
The specific topic for this thread is which NU QB would you pick for a championship game? We're not arguing who was the best, etc. but who do you think would give the best chance for that W.
Persa us my man.
I’d agree that Thorson certainly poses a threat with his legs and he has legitimate NFL arm talent and leadership skills. He’s an excellent QB...but he is not the best QB NU has had since the dark ages.
That’s Dan Persa and it’s not close.
What's odd about this thread is that whenever we lose a game, whether it be because of injury, poor play, great play but stupid mistakes, a bad team surprising us, whatever, that is a LOSS. It's traumatic, everyone freaks out and wants to fire all the coaches and the number goes in the wrong column. The first time in quite a while I can remember that not happening is THIS YEAR, against ND and OSU, which were generally recognized as better teams who we were likely not to beat (except in ECAT's mind). Why? Because we were darn good too and we played them both well. But this is the rare exception to the usual response of going catatonic after a loss, much less a losing season (for whatever reason) Why? Clayton Thorson, along with a great D. Oh, and by the way we won a Division Title outright
(Which NU QBs (since '95) would you choose to compete for a BT ...Title). There are so many variables in winning and losing, but it is clear from past history that we value the WINNER. Thorson is the winner, this not hypothetical.
Persa was a great QB, no question, but one might remember that one of the reasons he scrambled for so many yards was because he had to. What if all he had to do was hand the ball off and pass most of the time, behind a great OLine, would his stats have been better, the same? He was a great QB for the situation at the time, but he ended up IMO pushing himself so hard in doing that, he got injured. Fact is, if we had a complete and across the board outstanding team, capable of winning a (blank) title, I would choose any of the QB's we've been discussing to lead that team. Thorson is one who did it, leading an imperfect team.
(Which NU QBs (since '95) would you choose to compete for a BT ...Title). There are so many variables in winning and losing, but it is clear from past history that we value the WINNER. Thorson is the winner, this not hypothetical.
Persa was a great QB, no question, but one might remember that one of the reasons he scrambled for so many yards was because he had to. What if all he had to do was hand the ball off and pass most of the time, behind a great OLine, would his stats have been better, the same? He was a great QB for the situation at the time, but he ended up IMO pushing himself so hard in doing that, he got injured. Fact is, if we had a complete and across the board outstanding team, capable of winning a (blank) title, I would choose any of the QB's we've been discussing to lead that team. Thorson is one who did it, leading an imperfect team.
^This
Dan was playing with leaky lines, less than stellar RBs and a Hankowitz defense that was still several years from morphing into the force it is today. Yet he almost singlehandedly carried the team to victories by converting endless third downs and controlling the clock (which isn’t an easy strategy to excute even with optimal talent). When he went down in November of 2010, it was immediately lights out. I have a hard time imagining any other quarterback carrying the load that he did. It was incredible.
As far the question posted at the top of the thread, it’s Dan then everybody else (and there are several excellent choices in the latter grouping).
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It would depend on the strength of the team around the quarterback. With a strong o-line, I would prefer either Thorson or Siemian, with Schnur as a third choice. With a weaker line I would want Persa, Basenez and the Kustok. If the line was something in the middle, I would probably take Mike Kafka. I am hedging completely, but I really do think which QB you need depends on what the QB has to work with.
Comparing Thorson behind a strong line to Persa behind the same, I like Thorson’s height and his ability to make a quick throw over the middle, where Persa was handicapped by his height a little. I would have loved to have seen Siemian develop behind a strong line. In a run for your life situation, I thought Persa could throw darts on the run better than any other QB wearing the purple in that era.
As a final, final hedge, Schnur may have been the most canny QB in that era, and probably would be credible in any circumstance.
Comparing Thorson behind a strong line to Persa behind the same, I like Thorson’s height and his ability to make a quick throw over the middle, where Persa was handicapped by his height a little. I would have loved to have seen Siemian develop behind a strong line. In a run for your life situation, I thought Persa could throw darts on the run better than any other QB wearing the purple in that era.
As a final, final hedge, Schnur may have been the most canny QB in that era, and probably would be credible in any circumstance.
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There are two discussions you can never win on this board:
1) Barnett was a coaching God
2) Persa was a QB God
Going to limit my take to the Fitz era (makes things easier, plus, didn't get to see as many games of the QB's who pre-dated the Fitz era due to various reasons).
And for this exercise, going to use the 2014 team as the basis of comparison for each QB (how each QB would have fared) as that was arguably the best team of the Fitz era w/ a near elite D w/ each QB being(1) healthy and (2) in their SR year.
1. Persa - the only true dual-threat QB that has played under Fitz; someone who could pass, run and extend passing plays w/ his legs.
W/o Persa, the 2010 team gets maybe 4-5 wins instead of the 7 it got before Persa went down (w/ a healthy Persa, the 'Cats would have beaten Illinois and would have had a better chance of winning their bowl game).
Persa was a poor-man's Russell Wilson; there were numerous times when thought that Dan was surely going to get sacked, but somehow found a way to escape.
A good more recent comparable would be PSU's Trace McSorley.
W/ the combo of Persa, JJtBC and the 2014 D, the 'Cats win the West and have a pretty good shot at upsetting the winner of the East (likely dOSU).
2. Siemian - from the very start of Trevor seeing action, was intrigued by Siemian as he threw a beautiful deep ball. Wasn't surprised by Siemian's ability to sling the ball around despite being early in his NU career as he had put up impressive passing #s in HS and was one of the more polished passers coming into the program.
While TS was no Persa, he did have the ability to extend plays w/ his legs; something which we saw in the 4th Q of the M00N game where Trevor nearly (and should've) led the 'Cats comeback (didn't agree w/ the coaching decision to go for 2 and the refs missed a holding call on the prior drive) and the ND win, but not nearly enough of.
Thought Trevor talents weren't utilized all the way; granted he had a leg/ankle injury which made him immobile for a period of time over 2 seasons, but when he was healthy, the coaching staff underutilized his scrambling ability and ability to pass accurately while on the move.
3. Tie - Bacher/Kafka - Like Siemian, Bacher had pretty gaudy passing stats in HS and was known for his gunslinging ways - which is what was needed at the time as the 'Cats usually had to outscore opponents.
Maybe I'm underselling Bacher here when it comes to his ability to extend passing plays w/ his legs (memory is a little fuzzy), just as he tends to be underappreciated among the more recent NU QBs, esp. as he was a good enough runner to have runs of 35 and 27 yds during his career.
Kafka was really raw (as a passer) coming into the program, but worked hard at his craft and by the time he was a SR, was able to put up 3,430 passing yds; of the Fitz-era QBs, only surpassed by one only QB (Bacher w/ 3,656 passing yds in 2007).
4. Thorson - I'm sure many will think that I'm placing Clayton too low on my list, but am only doing so b/c think he needs to continue to develop. Like Kafka, Thorson was pretty raw coming in as passing QB and while he has improved, would have liked to have seen more accuracy on deep balls and more improvement when it came to extending passing plays w/ his legs (albeit some of that may be on the play-calling/giving the QB enough freedom to do so).
That being said, it's not like Clayton is that far behind and he has the best physical tools of the QBs listed - best arm, fastest and good size.
So if Thorson continues to work on his game, may end up being the best (former) NU QB when it comes to the NFL (needs to go to a team where the system suits him and where he can sit and learn for a couple of years).
And for this exercise, going to use the 2014 team as the basis of comparison for each QB (how each QB would have fared) as that was arguably the best team of the Fitz era w/ a near elite D w/ each QB being(1) healthy and (2) in their SR year.
1. Persa - the only true dual-threat QB that has played under Fitz; someone who could pass, run and extend passing plays w/ his legs.
W/o Persa, the 2010 team gets maybe 4-5 wins instead of the 7 it got before Persa went down (w/ a healthy Persa, the 'Cats would have beaten Illinois and would have had a better chance of winning their bowl game).
Persa was a poor-man's Russell Wilson; there were numerous times when thought that Dan was surely going to get sacked, but somehow found a way to escape.
A good more recent comparable would be PSU's Trace McSorley.
W/ the combo of Persa, JJtBC and the 2014 D, the 'Cats win the West and have a pretty good shot at upsetting the winner of the East (likely dOSU).
2. Siemian - from the very start of Trevor seeing action, was intrigued by Siemian as he threw a beautiful deep ball. Wasn't surprised by Siemian's ability to sling the ball around despite being early in his NU career as he had put up impressive passing #s in HS and was one of the more polished passers coming into the program.
While TS was no Persa, he did have the ability to extend plays w/ his legs; something which we saw in the 4th Q of the M00N game where Trevor nearly (and should've) led the 'Cats comeback (didn't agree w/ the coaching decision to go for 2 and the refs missed a holding call on the prior drive) and the ND win, but not nearly enough of.
Thought Trevor talents weren't utilized all the way; granted he had a leg/ankle injury which made him immobile for a period of time over 2 seasons, but when he was healthy, the coaching staff underutilized his scrambling ability and ability to pass accurately while on the move.
3. Tie - Bacher/Kafka - Like Siemian, Bacher had pretty gaudy passing stats in HS and was known for his gunslinging ways - which is what was needed at the time as the 'Cats usually had to outscore opponents.
Maybe I'm underselling Bacher here when it comes to his ability to extend passing plays w/ his legs (memory is a little fuzzy), just as he tends to be underappreciated among the more recent NU QBs, esp. as he was a good enough runner to have runs of 35 and 27 yds during his career.
Kafka was really raw (as a passer) coming into the program, but worked hard at his craft and by the time he was a SR, was able to put up 3,430 passing yds; of the Fitz-era QBs, only surpassed by one only QB (Bacher w/ 3,656 passing yds in 2007).
4. Thorson - I'm sure many will think that I'm placing Clayton too low on my list, but am only doing so b/c think he needs to continue to develop. Like Kafka, Thorson was pretty raw coming in as passing QB and while he has improved, would have liked to have seen more accuracy on deep balls and more improvement when it came to extending passing plays w/ his legs (albeit some of that may be on the play-calling/giving the QB enough freedom to do so).
That being said, it's not like Clayton is that far behind and he has the best physical tools of the QBs listed - best arm, fastest and good size.
So if Thorson continues to work on his game, may end up being the best (former) NU QB when it comes to the NFL (needs to go to a team where the system suits him and where he can sit and learn for a couple of years).
This.
And Persa was a just a dual-threat QB, he was a triple-threat QB (which is what made him so dangerous).
Persa could (1) pass in the pocket, (2) run like a RB and (3) extend passing plays w/ his legs (when Dan started to run, he would almost always keep looking down-field to see if a receiver was getting open).
A receiver getting open often had to do w/ a defender peeling off thinking that Persa was going to tuck it and run.
And let's not forget, Thorson had Carr (during best statistical season), the only NU receiver of late to make it onto an NFL roster and stick.
Ebert was drafted (7th rnd) but got released and then signed onto a couple of practice squads before getting signed by the Jags, then released, then signed to the PS, then activated (3 career NFL receptions) before being released again.
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My only issue with Kafka as the "best" QB for a title game is that his last game for NU was a loss vs. Auburn in the 2010 Outback Bowl, in a way that Persa wouldn't have lost.
Kafka's stat line was crazy: 47-78, 532 yards, 5 TD, 5 INT.
He gave up some key interceptions, including the 100 yd pick-6. In fact, the first two drives for NU ended with interceptions. He made some good plays, but ultimately I believe his mistakes led to the loss. Not to mention Demos having a horrible day, missing a PAT and 2 field goals, one of them a potential game-winning 43 yarder with 3 seconds left.
Persa is my first choice as QB for a title game.
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