Sure was. And one of those other midgets is in both the College and Naismith Halls of Fame.
Agree with all of this, especially the last part.
Who Hates Collins?
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Sure was. And one of those other midgets is in both the College and Naismith Halls of Fame.
Agree with all of this, especially the last part.
If you think a list that includes Tex Winter, Rich Falk, and Bill Foster are all midgets, that's insulting. If you don't have respect for Carmody, for taking us from the Dark Ages to the ... uh .... Middle Ages? .... that's insulting too. Bill Carmody was also important because it showed a hot young Duke assistant that this job was one worth taking. Now Chris Collins is taking the coaching AND recruiting part of this to a new level, and that SHOULD be fine by all of us.
Now can we please NEVER discuss this again?
I think I had the final post that drove him over the edge. Or forced him into the latest time out. Maybe I'll change my name to Santa.
If one measures BC against 75 years of futility then you are absolutely right. I'm not comfortable doing that. There is ABSOLUTELY no reason that NU has to have or continue to have a program that simply is too awful to make it to the dance. BC didn't change that and Phillips did the right thing and fired him. If he was such a good coach, why did he get fired? NU should do some of that on the football team with a few assistants, so I was ecstatic that Phillips sat at the "Table of Progress" and 'pruned the coach'.
He simply didn't put forth the energy needed to be borderline NCAA's. To be sure, I never witnessed any BC team that was borderline NCAA's. You mention NIT. Getting into the NIT [And barely at that] proves my point. BC was a whiz, and knew the game but his recruiting was awful. Most say, 2 out of 3 aint bad, but his recruitin was more like 1 out of 5 were good.
Moving forward, CC came in with a bunch of BC guys on the bench and quickly cleared them out. Abrahmanson, That center from Chicago, Sonny and Cher Alou, and I know I'm probably missing another. He even cut loose one of his own, Vassar. CC will sit at the table of progress and prune his team if he has to. BC was a whiz, and could develop a play after a timeout that you just knew would work. But he never made it due to his recruiting. And that's what I'm talking about. I watch our team now and we have NCAA dance type players, just really young. It's really a tribute to CC that our best player, Law, got hurt and we are still playing very well.
NU might have that just after Carmody thanks the university, it's students and most importantly the kids who played for him all those years. Oh yes and how about a big thanks for the millions they paid him.
Don't apologize for that. I've been close to a couple of doctors in my life and it never stops. Every friend, every party, every neighbor, everywhere, somebody asks for advice. "I have this ache or rash. What do you think?" It is deep identity and hard earned, always studying and staying up on things and putting on a caring face even when people are needy and obnoxious. On top of that, it isn't always that lucrative often requires odd hours and interruptions to personal time and takes a great deal of commitment.
you're talking to people who don't post here any more. i think those who still post here have like 100 percent moved forward.
however, because we're all behind Coach Collins doesn't mean many of us don't have a lot of respect for Coach Carmody taking us from the Dark Ages to a point where someone like Collins was highly interested in NU basketball. Carmody was the first person to show us that winning was possible. Collins will be the first person to actually get it done.
Now let's burn this thread.
I like Bill. He was always friendly to me. If you mean he took the program from D to C, that's fine, but if Collins starts taking us to the NCAAs, nobody is going to care about some nice little NIT teams in 10 years. Knowing Bill a bit, I think he would be happy from afar if/when guys like Shurna have a special halftime tribute.
I also am not sure how much more credit that Bill deserves than any other reasonably competent coach in terms of the cupboard. He left Olah, Lumpkin, Taphorn, and Demps. That's a good start for Collins--two starters--but any decent coach would have left something. O'Neill did. Foster did that. With Foster, he got the guys but they all left and then Byrdsong took the remaining guys and went to the NIT. With O'Neill, he blew up his original class, and by the time his next group was arriving, he was gone. Carmody started off with those guys, but then came bad recruiting (the Lees come to mind) and it took time to get Shurna, Crawford, Juice and by then the rest of the cupboard was empty.
Collins is certainly recruiting NCAA Tournament caliber players, so I think if next year's team makes the tournament, he rightfully earned most of the credit. If it happens this year, I hope somebody says thanks to Bill for the role he played.
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I'm talking an F to A scale here. I don't think he started at F because of the recruits that O'Neill lined up. Carmody wasn't starting a team from scratch. Jitim, Winston Blake, Tavaras Hardy, and Ben Johnson. They were all double digit scorers on Carmody's first team--Well, Jitim was at nearly 9 PPG, but that was good, raw talent. Only Hardy was an upperclassman.
So I don't think that Carmody had it terrible. He had it bad because of the poor facilities, lack of tradition after the 1960s, no NCAA history, and O'Neill leaving a bad taste in everybody's mouth. But, he could have had it worse if the program was on probation or had no returning starters and no young talent.
I know you meant an A to F scale. And I'm saying our program was so low that it was as low an F as you can get. A Power 5 school with only 3 postseason appearances (to that point) and 2 postseason wins (to that point) was as low as you could go.
Also, I think who he was left with was a bit irrelevant because he played a style that none of those guys was recruited for. Sort of like the reverse in Collins' first year -- those guys were recruited for an entirely different system than Collins wanted/wants to play.
Also, I think who he was left with was a bit irrelevant because he played a style that none of those guys was recruited for. Sort of like the reverse in Collins' first year -- those guys were recruited for an entirely different system than Collins wanted/wants to play.
I was working through this thread and thinking to myself that once again, there was nothing new here, move on.
And then it hit me. Three years after the coaching change those posters who still need to hammer that nail on BC -- positive or negative -- also have the most vapid posts about the current team and its play.
And then it hit me. Three years after the coaching change those posters who still need to hammer that nail on BC -- positive or negative -- also have the most vapid posts about the current team and its play.
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That doesn't mean that the talent was bad, though. It just meant Bill had to do a lot of instruction and coaching and the players had to adjust dramatically.
What would have been a better situation, talent wise? Maybe if the previous regime had used the Princeton offense.
But what would have been worse is no talent at all.
I mean, look at the Byrdsong to O'Neill transition. Didn't Byrdsong sign Wink? Eschmeyer was there but was actually Foster's baby. So O'Neill really had one incoming frosh and a oft-injured center. Now the center was Esch, but he was only one piece, however significant of a piece he was.
I did not dislike BC. But felt we had reached our ceiling with him and while I would have been fine with keeping him for one more year, I was ready for a change. That it was CCC that we got made the move appropriate for when it occurred.
I think for this year with some weakness in the BIG and with our OOC schedule it would likely take 10-8 and maybe a win in BTT to get to the dance. We can win 9 without beating anyone big. IL, PSU, PSU, MN, RUT and NEB would get us to 9 but I doubt it would get us to the dance. Winning a couple against a MD, MSU, IA or the the like might get us closer but being 9-9 would mean we would have lost to a couple weaker teams. Just saying 10-8 and maybe a win in BTT would have us with 23 wins and we would be hard to keep out. Anything less and ?
No...Wink was KON's first signee during the late period before his first season. He called a guy he knew out in California and asked if knew of any shooter that hadn't been signed. The guy told him he had a kid (Wink) who could hit from anywhere in the gym...
Wondering how many of Carmody's recruits were at NU because they were good a playing the Princeton O. Don't recall any of the centers during that era being able to hit constantly from the high post, as the PO needs and other then Shurna and maybe Crawford they lacked wingmen who could hit from out deep. In fact the only really good 3 point shooter, which is another PO requisite was Moore.
Pros is different than college. Players move on so your sthick sp is on a new group every couple years and doesn't wear as thin. Also, only about 35 games a year instead of up to 100
Okay, which means O'Neill really inherited a bunch of spare parts and Esch.
He really did. That cupboard was BARE! I believe we started three different walk-ons that season at one time or another. Our 2nd best player was scholarship football freshman Napoleon Harris, who was a 6-2 PF. Our starting PG was Julian Bonner, who had no business playing PG (he was a 3). Our only point guards on roster were walk-on Matt Kammrath and frosh Jonah Batumbze (spelling??) who transferred to DIII after the season and still never started. When we played Iowa, Tom Davis' press basically made the game a formality five minutes in. Esch carried us that season...while his walkon frosh brother Jeff played some minutes as well.
Joe Branch was a regular starter and played a ton of minutes (his defense was okay...his offense was zero). Aaron f'n Molnar played some minutes. If anyone else remembers him...well...all you can do is chuckle.
Molnar was tall. You have to give him that.
This is meant for olshin, not you, but the total lack of talent is why I say O'Neill took over at 'F' and Carmody took over at 'D.' Both situations stink but one is worse than the other, objectively speaking.
I didn't read most of this thread, just scrolled right to the bottom to ask where you get the Harbaugh comparison from... Harbaugh is a bonafide PSYCHO. Read up on some stories on him. He's insane
His traditional recruiting was pretty dreadful if you consider just how many of his guys would actually play on any other BIG team. In general, he had about 2-3 BIG players at any one time and the rest ... He made the most of them and gained a bit of an advantage for them. By comparison, now we have at least 9 that would find a place on other BIG teams(Olah, Law, BMac, Pardon, Demps, JVZ, Ash, Lindsey, Falzon) and maybe more.
To be fair, he recruited for players to fit his system either out of necessity because players with more talent may have tended to shy away or because that is who he truly needed. I think it was more the former. Had he not brought in Hardy, he likely would have been gone long before he was.
BC was an Offensive Wiz. Not so sure about D. He did get us to a level of respectability and stability but had he not hired Hardy, I doubt that would have happened. BC and staff did get a few nice players but never enough. He made the most of what he had but what he had was due to him.
Hahaha -- I think we're arguing semantics now. I'd say they were both at an F, but yes where O'Neill took over had far far less talent. Neither had a shot at being competitive when they took over though. But if you want me to say that O'Neill took over an F- while Carmody took over an F, I'm on board with that
Let him attack me all he wants. Nothing gets me giddy like proving Turk wrong time and time again
BC inherited Hardy, Jitim, Ed McCants, and Winston Blake. I think you have to bump up the grade to at least a D- or D because of those guys. They were all better than anything KO inherited beyond Esch. He also inherited the best center (Jennings) he'd have during his entire tenure at NU...which is not saying much.
You know who didn't start out with an F or a D in the last 50 years? Brad Snyder when Glass resigned. Glass was 4th in the Big Ten with a bunch of great players like Kelley and Adams. Snyder finished off a 5th place finisher, then we were quickly 9th or 10th in the conference. I would say Snyder left us with a D, though I don't know if he recruited McKinney or if Winter did. Anybody know?
Again, we're arguing semantics. The program hadn't had back to back winning seasons in about 30 years when Carmody took it over. Forget tournament seasons. WINNING seasons. Program hadn't had back to back seasons with more than 10 wins in 15 years. THAT to me qualifies as an F.
It was a very athletic team. Probably better individual defenders as a whole than at any other time of Carmody's tenure, though I don't have the numbers here to demonstrate if our defensive stats were actually better.
Then Johnson and McCants left, Hardy graduated, and the floor caved in until Vedran developed. Blake in particular really couldn't hit a shot his last year.
I think the one guy who left before Carmody but who would have benefitted from the P.O. was Lepore. I'm not sure David Newman was ever going to get it together and not sure Deren could have handled the rugged Big Ten night in and night out. I think Deren wound up playing for an NCAA tourney team (Creighton I think) but it was a mid major, so he didn't have to survive the physical Big Ten. Newman was even worse at wherever he went, Drake?
What does that matter if you inherited pieces that could get you to a winning season? No back-to-back winners matters for recruiting the following year maybe, but the coach before you has brought guys that you can win with.
But he couldn't. Not with his system. Completely unique skill set. We've seen that.
Yeah...there's typically a step back with any new regime, with exceptions, of course (Weber at Illinois).
But that's Carmody's fault if he can't take decent talent and teach them his system. To his credit, he did a pretty good job... in that respect. They went from 10th to 6th in one year and that's their record after losing Johnson and McCants.
Don't act like O'Neill recruits could not play the P.O. Plenty of other NCAA programs have athletic guys running the P.O. or elements of it and NBA teams, too. One of O'Neill recruits was a pretty decent fit at center, Jennings.
None of this commentary is intended to bash Bill at all. I'm just saying he had the same rotten facilities, same horrible tradition as O'Neill but a little bit better talent at the start.
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