Lia Thomas is a National Champion

[CoralSpringsCat]

Thomas first transgender athlete to win D-I title

Pennsylvania's Lia Thomas became the first known transgender athlete to capture a Division I national title by winning the 500 free at the NCAA women's swimming championships in Atlanta on Thursday, while protesters demonstrated outside.

www.espn.com

 

[CatManTrue]

Congratulations to her, and all of the trans kids who need role models like her.

 

[No Chores]

Congratulations to her, and all of the trans kids who need role models like her.

Ugh. Disgraceful!

 

[CoralSpringsCat]

Interesting take here.

 

[CoralSpringsCat]

Big improvement for Lia.

 

[CatManTrue]

Interesting take here.

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What is interesting about it? I haven’t been following Jenner’s takes on everything unfortunately.

 

[GOUNUII]

Ugh. Disgraceful!

I really feel for the girls who got the finger from the Ivy League and NCAA. Biggest institutional “ F$CK U “ in sports since the SEC refused to recruit blacks more than 50 years ago. Same blind eye to equality and fundamental fairness. Both are equally appalling.

GOUNUII

 

[CatManTrue]

I really feel for the girls who got the finger from the Ivy League and NCAA. Biggest institutional “ F$CK U “ in sports since the SEC refused to recruit blacks more than 50 years ago. Same blind eye to equality and fundamental fairness. Both are equally appalling.

GOUNUII

…that’s quite the leap you made there.

How is inclusiveness of trans people the equivalent to the “old way” of blatant, systemic racism?

Allowing trans people to be themselves does not make us like the racist forefathers of prior generations. Quite the opposite, really.

 

[No Chores]

I really feel for the girls who got the finger from the Ivy League and NCAA. Biggest institutional “ F$CK U “ in sports since the SEC refused to recruit blacks more than 50 years ago. Same blind eye to equality and fundamental fairness. Both are equally appalling.

GOUNUII

Right on the button my man!

 

[CoralSpringsCat]

 

[CoralSpringsCat]

 

[CatManTrue]

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Second place is still first loser. Congratulations to her on the silver!

 

[CatManTrue]

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Transphobia is still alive and well on the WildcatReport. Sad!

 

[No Chores]

Transphobia is still alive and well on the WildcatReport. Sad!

No. You and the NCAA are the sad ones. Ridiculous when a man can win a women's event.

 

[CatManTrue]

No. You and the NCAA are the sad ones. Ridiculous when a man can win a women's event.

Women who want to become trans men are free to transition and compete in men’s events if they undergo what Lia underwent to become a woman.

Fair is fair. It’s now truly a two way street.

Do you really think Lia underwent an elective procedure to endure harassment from millions of people just to win a gold?

 

[GOUNUII]

…that’s quite the leap you made there.

How is inclusiveness of trans people the equivalent to the “old way” of blatant, systemic racism?

Allowing trans people to be themselves does not make us like the racist forefathers of prior generations. Quite the opposite, really.

At the root of both situations was/is institutional politics rooted in the dominant identity based discrimination of the day.

The old way gave absolute preference to whites over blacks in the recruitment/admission of HS students and student athletes to the major Universities of the South. There was to be no co-mingling of the races. These were not academic decisions. They were purely political decisions made and enforced by academic institutions under the thumb of racist Governors and state administrators. Such practices violated our Constitution and federal law. Blacks suffered greatly in the process. Whites had the upper hand by a wide margin. But the lawless human suffering meant nothing to the white institutional forces seeking to preserve their self proclaimed place at the top of the food chain. The institutional defense of a systemic degradation of blacks was augmented by the fear of reprisal supporters of the systemic racism instilled in those who did not toe the line.

Today the new way is rooted in all the same dynamics. Only the identities of the institutionally favored and disfavored have changed. And for that reason it is every bit as appalling.

The very purpose of the NCAA and Ivy League athletic offices is to regulate athletic participation to preserve a level playing field for all competitions. Without a level playing field there is no integrity to the competition and therefore no athletic (vs political) interest to be preserved and promoted. But that core purpose is yielding to the new politically charged identity order that dominates American academia today. Under the thumb of woke Universities and their administrators we now see the interests of identity/trans women (old day whites) being promoted at the expense of the interests of biological women (old day blacks). The lawlessness is there IMHO under Title IX. The baseless discrimination is there. What have biological women done to justify being stripped of a level playing field? The damages are there. No championships and the spoils that come with them. As is the rank stank smell of fundamental unfairness. What is more, so many are speaking out against this modern day identity discrimination only on the condition of anonymity. Because the intimidation tactics and institutional power of reprisal of those advocating this competitive discrimination against biological women is real and often painful.

Inclusiveness that promotes and advances equal opportunity and acceptance for all is important. Really important. But practices that destroy a level playing field for all black, brown, asian, white and other biological women can't be justified in the name of inclusiveness. Those practices are are no different in their nature (arbitrarily tilting the playing field in favor of trans women over biological women) and consequences (the creation/sustaining of identities with no chance to compete) than the ones used to destroy a level playing field for blacks in the old days.

GOUNUII

 

[Dugan15]

I support Lia Thomas. I don’t mean to be mean, but just as the champion looks different, is it wrong for me to think the 3rd place finisher also looks different?

 

[lunker35]

…that’s quite the leap you made there.

How is inclusiveness of trans people the equivalent to the “old way” of blatant, systemic racism?

Allowing trans people to be themselves does not make us like the racist forefathers of prior generations. Quite the opposite, really.

Allowing this to happen promotes inequality only to promote inclusion. It’s ridiculous that it was allowed to happen and incredibly unfair to womens sports. The picture from the podium tells it all. There is Lia Thomas standing next to a former Olympic medalist that she just beat while getting booed by the crowd because everyone knows she has physical attributes that nobody else in the pool had.

 

[lunker35]

Women who want to become trans men are free to transition and compete in men’s events if they undergo what Lia underwent to become a woman.

Fair is fair. It’s now truly a two way street.

Do you really think Lia underwent an elective procedure to endure harassment from millions of people just to win a gold?

She didn’t get the elective procedure. Her own teammates have publicly come out stating how uncomfortable their locker room environment is because of the asset that she has between her legs. #catmanfalse

 

[CoralSpringsCat]

 

[Hungry Jack]

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It’s all in your head!

 

[Hungry Jack]

Allowing this to happen promotes inequality only to promote inclusion. It’s ridiculous that it was allowed to happen and incredibly unfair to womens sports. The picture from the podium tells it all. There is Lia Thomas standing next to a former Olympic medalist that she just beat while getting booed by the crowd because everyone knows she has physical attributes that nobody else in the pool had.

The rights of one individual, cast as a minority victim, trumps the rights of many. It’s absurd.

The Economist weighed in on this recently with a typically sensible solution: have a (biological) female competition and an open competition.




“The science suggests that the compromise does not work. A pair of review studies, published in 2020 and 2021, concluded that testosterone suppression does not go far in removing the advantage bestowed by male puberty.”

“The issue is just as contentious outside America. In September a group of British sporting bodies concluded that balancing fair competition and the inclusion of trans women in women’s sport is impossible.”

“Many sports take their lead from the International Olympic Committee. Before the Tokyo games last year, it had required trans-women athletes to suppress their testosterone levels. However, in the light of the scientific evidence, it promised new rules. Its new policy, announced in November, was greeted with bafflement. It threw the hot potato back to individual sports, but warned them, despite what the record-books say, that there should be no automatic assumption that males possess any advantage at all. Clarity seems further away than ever. “

 

[Arlcatsfan]

This whole situation is wrong on so many levels.The NCAA and the Ivy League are CHICKEN BLEEP in allowing Thomas or any transgender female athlete to compete against biological females.Let them have their own tournament against one another.To say that Thomas does not have a major advantage over biological females is ludicrous.A spot is literally being stolen from one of these women.It is not right nor fair for Thomas to be allowed to participate in this tournament.

 

[CatManTrue]

The rights of one individual, cast as a minority victim, trumps the rights of many. It’s absurd.

The Economist weighed in on this recently with a typically sensible solution: have a (biological) female competition and an open competition.




“The science suggests that the compromise does not work. A pair of review studies, published in 2020 and 2021, concluded that testosterone suppression does not go far in removing the advantage bestowed by male puberty.”

“The issue is just as contentious outside America. In September a group of British sporting bodies concluded that balancing fair competition and the inclusion of trans women in women’s sport is impossible.”

“Many sports take their lead from the International Olympic Committee. Before the Tokyo games last year, it had required trans-women athletes to suppress their testosterone levels. However, in the light of the scientific evidence, it promised new rules. Its new policy, announced in November, was greeted with bafflement. It threw the hot potato back to individual sports, but warned them, despite what the record-books say, that there should be no automatic assumption that males possess any advantage at all. Clarity seems further away than ever. “

You think Lia is the only trans woman, “an individual “?

Doesn’t The Economist have real things to worry about? Like the war in Ukraine?

 

[CatManTrue]

She didn’t get the elective procedure. Her own teammates have publicly come out stating how uncomfortable their locker room environment is because of the asset that she has between her legs. #catmanfalse

Wouldn’t that asset cause drag and slow her down in the pool?

 

[Darren72]

“I have great respect for Lia. Social change is always a slow and difficult process, and we rarely get it correct right away. Being among the first to lead such a social change requires an enormous amount of courage and I admire Lia for her leadership that will undoubtedly benefit many trans athletes in the future. In 2020 I, along with most swimmers, experienced what it was like to have my chance to achieve my swimming goals taken away after years of hard work. I would not wish this experience on anyone, especially Lia who has followed the rules required of her. I believe that treating people with respect and dignity is more important than any trophy or record will ever be, which is why I will not have a problem racing against Lia at NCAAs this year.” —Brooke Forde

Stanford’s Brooke Forde Says She's Okay with Racing Lia Thomas at NCAAs

"I believe that treating people with respect and dignity is more important than any trophy or record will ever be," said Forde in a statement.

swimswam.com

Sportsmanship and class

 

[Darren72]

This is a good read on these issues:

The Trans Swimmer Who Won Too Much

Lia Thomas is not the first trans swimmer in the N.C.A.A., but her victories have put her at the center of a debate about trans athletes.

www.newyorker.com

 

[GOUNUII]

Stanford’s Brooke Forde Says She's Okay with Racing Lia Thomas at NCAAs

"I believe that treating people with respect and dignity is more important than any trophy or record will ever be," said Forde in a statement.

swimswam.com

Sportsmanship and class

What an incredibly twisted play on words. A perfect way to keep the focus on Lia and ignore the many more who Lia and the swimming authorities are screwing.

Dignity called for Lia to continue competing against the boys. She had that option. But why choose that when you can easily win hollow medals against biological women and become famous in the process.

The very definition of sportsmanship is fair play to the field as a whole, regardless of the outcome. Here, we have just the opposite. Personal and political agendas are dictating the outcomes by poisoning the very competition true sportsmanship would say is inviolate.

Class? Have you heard the comments of Martina Navratilova and Caitlyn Jenner? Are you telling us they have no class?

This virtue signaling in defense of perceived victims - and at the expense of many others - is seemingly everywhere you look today. It's the popular thing to do. But it is so damn wrong any way you slice it.

GOUNUII

 

[Hungry Jack]

What an incredibly twisted play on words. A perfect way to keep the focus on Lia and ignore the many more who Lia and the swimming authorities are screwing.

Dignity called for Lia to continue competing against the boys. She had that option. But why choose that when you can easily win hollow medals against biological women and become famous in the process.

The very definition of sportsmanship is fair play to the field as a whole, regardless of the outcome. Here, we have just the opposite. Personal and political agendas are dictating the outcomes by poisoning the very competition true sportsmanship would say is inviolate.

Class? Have you heard the comments of Martina Navratilova and Caitlyn Jenner? Are you telling us they have no class?

This virtue signaling in defense of perceived victims - and at the expense of many others - is seemingly everywhere you look today. It's the popular thing to do. But it is so damn wrong any way you slice it.

GOUNUII

Pieces like that tend to conflate issues. They are often framed as an all or nothing question of equity and inclusion, which is a false dichotomy. Thomas should have every opportunity to compete, but it is self evidently unfair to other biological woman who want to compete if Thomas competes in that arena.

That’s great that Thomas has supporters. But I would bet my last dollar that those women who want to compete with her are in the minority. I am sure many of them do not want to speak publicly on their views.

 

[CatManTrue]

@GOUNUII , @No Chores , @Hungry Jack , @lunker35 , @CoralSpringsCat all ought to give this piece a fair read.

The Trans Swimmer Who Won Too Much

Lia Thomas is not the first trans swimmer in the N.C.A.A., but her victories have put her at the center of a debate about trans athletes.

www.newyorker.com

 

[Hungry Jack]

@GOUNUII , @No Chores , @Hungry Jack , @lunker35 , @CoralSpringsCat all ought to give this piece a fair read.

The Trans Swimmer Who Won Too Much

Lia Thomas is not the first trans swimmer in the N.C.A.A., but her victories have put her at the center of a debate about trans athletes.

www.newyorker.com

Darren posted that article a few posts back.

 

[GOUNUII]

@GOUNUII , @No Chores , @Hungry Jack , @lunker35 , @CoralSpringsCat all ought to give this piece a fair read.

The Trans Swimmer Who Won Too Much

Lia Thomas is not the first trans swimmer in the N.C.A.A., but her victories have put her at the center of a debate about trans athletes.

www.newyorker.com

I did. It had all the staples of a liberal author writing for a liberal journal. The racial profiling against whites. The contempt for Republicans, conservatives and Fox News. The victim and discrimination cards raised on behalf of female athletes as a whole. Complaining that no sport is played on a level playing field because of training and god given physical advantages was pure wokeism in all its delusional splendor.

The one constructive aspect of the article was indirectly suggesting that like so many storms this too may pass. I hope so.

GOUNUII

 

[Hungry Jack]

I did. It had all the staples of a liberal author writing for a liberal journal. The racial profiling against whites. The contempt for Republicans, conservatives and Fox News. The victim and discrimination cards raised on behalf of female athletes as a whole. Complaining that no sport is played on a level playing field because of training and god given physical advantages was pure wokeism in all its delusional splendor.

The one constructive aspect of the article was indirectly suggesting that like so many storms this too may pass. I hope so.

GOUNUII

Also a reminder how the IOC muddies the waters on what constitutes fair competition

 

[Hungry Jack]

You think Lia is the only trans woman, “an individual “?

Doesn’t The Economist have real things to worry about? Like the war in Ukraine?

You obviously don’t read The Economist.

 

[CatManTrue]

Darren posted that article a few posts back.

Well apparently you didn’t learn any empathy for our trans citizens as a result. Instead of looking for practical solutions, so many of our “so intelligent” posters are just demonizing Lia.

When I played, there was a teammate who was obviously gay. It was an open secret and back then (20 years ago) it wasn’t well accepted. I remember being one of the few guys on the team who was nice to him, and for a couple of reasons:

1) I had a gay teammate in HS (circa 2000) and it didn’t bother me then, and it didn’t bother me in college

2) Who am I to judge consensual acts?we’re all human beings with our own peculiar strengths and flaws

3) We really could have used this guy playing at his full potential. He would have been an impact player. But a lot of guys ostracized him and to the team’s detriment.

 

[CatManTrue]

The one constructive aspect of the article was indirectly suggesting that like so many storms this too may pass. I hope so.

GOUNUII

Sorry to burst your bubble but it won’t.

Humanity is changing - most who believe in science would say we’re evolving!

While certain people want to demonize Lia, in 50 years she will be viewed as a civil rights hero. Mark my words.

 

[CatManTrue]

You obviously don’t read The Economist.

I used to be a print subscriber. I still pick up a copy while traveling, but I don’t travel as much these days.

 

[Dugan15]

Well apparently you didn’t learn any empathy for our trans citizens as a result. Instead of looking for practical solutions, so many of our “so intelligent” posters are just demonizing Lia.

When I played, there was a teammate who was obviously gay. It was an open secret and back then (20 years ago) it wasn’t well accepted. I remember being one of the few guys on the team who was nice to him, and for a couple of reasons:

1) I had a gay teammate in HS (circa 2000) and it didn’t bother me then, and it didn’t bother me in college

2) Who am I to judge consensual acts?we’re all human beings with our own peculiar strengths and flaws

3) We really could have used this guy playing at his full potential. He would have been an impact player. But a lot of guys ostracized him and to the team’s detriment.

CMT: That is sad to hear. Forgive my ignorance: NU football? We are a better society when we welcome people for who they are.

 

[NUCat320]

CMT: That is sad to hear. Forgive my ignorance: NU football? We are a better society when we welcome people for who they are.

I assume I know who CMT is talking about, and I also know 20 years is a looooooong time ago.

Don’t ask don’t tell, proudly devised by NU’s Charlie Moskos.

 

[Hungry Jack]

I used to be a print subscriber. I still pick up a copy while traveling, but I don’t travel as much these days.

Their Ukraine coverage has been excellent. They have been publishing weekly opinion pieces on Ukraine from various people close to the situation. This in addition to excellent analysis on various aspects of the war: the Russian military, Ukraine military, economic sanctions, China’s position, nuclear threat, etc. Their coverage is easily the most extensive of any major publication.

Re Thomas, I was surprised but pleased they covered the issue. They make a strong case for keeping biological females in a separate competitive class.

If you can show me the point where I demonize Thomas, I will retract it. I don’t blame her at all.

What I do fault is the notion that her competition is remotely fair to other females. No science yet proves it, and it strongly suggests biological males hold an advantage even after testosterone therapy.

I also fault the notion that inclusion for transgender athletes can only come at a cost to fair sports competition. Transgender athletes are very much a minority right now, and Thomas’ participation in the NCAA meets extracts a significant cost on biological female swimmers that account for the vast majority of participants.

I don’t buy for an instant that most females swimmers are happy to have Thomas there. The Economist article wrote: “In February a letter by 16 of Ms Thomas’s team-mates was supportive of her new identity, but said that “biologically Lia holds an unfair advantage…in the women’s category.” (Citing fears about future employment, none was willing to sign their name.) A broader letter, published on March 15th and signed by more than 5,000 people—including many Olympic athletes—took a similar view.”

Finally, a common reaction of the woke left when reasonable arguments are presented contrary to their positions is to attempt to frame it as a moral issue: a battle of virtuous inclusiveness vs hate. Good vs Evil. As I learned from my buddy Clint, there are not “good” people and “bad” people delineated by a clear moral boundary. Most people are a mix of good and bad as determined by their acts to a much greater extent than simple sentiments.