We have an architect that is 80 years old…it’s called NU basketball; need to try some perspective on for size. And try reading my post more where I took out recruiting from the question, which was about player usage.
"Secret scrimmage" vs. Iowa State
- Thread starter FeralFelidae
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No, I won’t. Programs go up and down. Let’s watch Duke post Coach K. So no. CCC owns it all. He is the current architect. Handsomely paid to make it all happen, including coaching, developing, strategizing.
Maybe he is putting the best lineup out. Wins and losses. That simple. His program, his players, his choices. Live and die by them.
Purple is simply looking at stats and bringing up good talking points. All CCC has to do is win. That simple.
I can see why there is so much hate for CCC when you don’t consider the environment. I stand by what I have said numerous times that it would be a miracle to create a sustained winning program here at NU for the 2 major sports. Fitz has gotten ever so close which, again, is amazing. Our margins are just so much thinner than the other factories. I just always keep that in mind when evaluating a coach.
I don’t think the adjustment is minor. If we are being honest here, NU’s starting line up does not match up most B1G teams. The first guy removed from the line up is likely to have the worse +/-. The first guy coming in generally plays the other teams subs as well. NU talent aligns with many teams bench players. It becomes more of an even match and +/- will improve.
Beran needs to be better. He knows it, the Coaches know it, and we know it. CCC definitely has to shorten the leash if Beran doesn’t have it. That is the real issue here.
Then find a little league team to root for. They celebrate participation there. And stop wasting millions on a program if there are no expectations.
Then stop wasting money on the program. Don’t need better facilities, high paid babysitters, etc. Spread that money to the other non revenue but more competitive athletic programs.
Well, I don't consider myself a hater. I consider myself a fact-based realist. I don't think Chris Collins is a very good basketball coach. He is much better at recruiting.
I think NU has its best opportunity in 40 years to put together a competitive basketball program. The facilities are improved, the school's reputation is improved. You only need 2-3 players a year to sustain the program. Surely this is possible.
C’mon Bob, I was in a non-revenue sport just like you. The men’s teams have been downsized/eliminated for decades now to support the money makers. The last thing that will ever happen with Title IV is a return of money invested in non-revenue Men’s Sports. You want to invest it in Women’s athletics? Ok, have at, but in almost all cases they aren’t money makers. So, there really is no option but to keep trying. My point is they aren’t going to stop trying despite the obvious obstacles the program faces. The next HC better be John Wooden like to make NU a consistent tournament threat.
Other teams don't sub like Chris Collins subs.
This may surprise you, but I looked at each game last year and in most games, the NU lineup that had the most success in the first half DID NOT PLAY together in the second half. It is one of those Collins anomalies that I can't get a handle on. But it makes me wonder what he is doing (or if he just wings it).
As for "the first guy removed from the lineup is likely to have the worse +/-" there's really no basis for that assertion.
Bottom line is there is not enough top end talent to have a winning record in the B1G. Put out any combination you want. Bring in John Wooden from the heavens to steer the ship, because it would take something like that. The team might be able to pull a few upsets and beat the lower third with experience, but that is the realistic ceiling.
I hope to be terribly wrong, but I have eyes too. A bunch of people will come out with torches and pitchforks by January 1st and say NU has great talent and blame CCC for all that is wrong. The flames will be fanned as Pete, Chase, Boo, and Young all have excellent games at one point or another. The problem will be most of them won’t be able to consistently string those excellent games together against B1G competition. The wildcard is the newcomers. If 1-2 of them are strong contributors, there is a chance. Hope it happens, because the players seem like a good bunch of dudes who have through a lot of losing.
If this team makes the tourney, CCC should immediately get a 5 year contract extension.
I understand that you don't see our roster as having the talent others do. And that's 100% legit. I often question my own opinion on that one.
But would you agree rebounding was a problem last year? There are stats almost perfectly correlating success last year in the B1G with rebounding.
If you do, and for as much as Kopp was not the hardest nosed guy out there, doesn't it give you pause that the first lineup we know of substitutes Kopp for Berry? I doubt Kopp was a worse rebounder than Berry will be.
Let's assume you are right, and we are severely short on talent. We should still try to maximize our wins. And that's where I feel Young playing 30 minutes has to happen. Beran is the weak link out there. I would not be shocked if, after adjustments driven by pre-season games, Beran dropped from the starting five to coming off the bench behind Williams.
Yes, these are all legitimate points and wouldn’t quibble with any of them.
Lemme guess. He hit you with the old “reducing to the absurdity” fallacy? It’s a favorite of people who don’t like to admit this program is fundamentally screwed.
Ok, I guess we can live off the big ten revenue split cuz if the admin lets the program run dead then that’s the only revenue. As we are seeing with Fitz, folks stop going to the games and with it goes concessions and merchandising. Press stops showing up and covering so less exposure. At some, they will be forced to pay for radio coverage or drop it to the student radio.
Let’s see the attendance if CCC puts another stinker season together. I read yesterday that donations come with debt servicing requirements. I really hope that is true here. If so, it might be the only thing that forces the admin to make the hard choices.
It’s very hard to build a fan base - especially at a small school full of eggheads. It’s easy to run them off or turn them uninterested. And what everyone refuses to accept, and hates me for bringing up all the time, is that without fan interest - it all goes away. No fans = no money.
Ok. But if the team does as badly as last year, he should be run out of town.
There are lots of smaller programs that do it better. Hell, how did Gonzaga become a powerhouse. What the hell is Gonzaga? Not sunny, beautiful Malibu - that’s Pepperdine. So exactly how did the zags do it?
And NU has recruited players that became studs. So if we are going to pay P5 money, then it should be for a P5 coach that can find recruitable talent, sign them and develop them.
CCC is a good recruiter. Not sold on his eye for talent, ability to develop and don’t think he’s a good X and O guy. He would make a great assistant coach at the college level.
An NCAA tourney (and a win) for NU! Just want to remind everyone to compare these denigrating comments regarding CCC to that fact. Many of his guys are playing in some form of professional leagues. Every announcer I hear says Collins runs excellent sets. (And to even think Doug Collins’s son is not a good Xs and Os guy does not compute for me).
I agree we’d like to get to Gonzaga’s level. They’ve been consistently winning for 25-30 years with solid academics. Getting close with Huff was a good sign.
I agree we’d like to get to Gonzaga’s level. They’ve been consistently winning for 25-30 years with solid academics. Getting close with Huff was a good sign.
We just see things very differently.
The Collins defenders ALWAYS say there is no talent on the roster, while crowing about how great his recruits are. It really can't be both.
His detractors say there is plenty of talent, but he is not good at developing it or using it in games.
At least that position is not logically conflicted.
I'm in the second camp and have been for several years now. Last year we relied heavily on two approaches that just don't make any sense. Playing Nance at the 5 and Beran at the 4 when both guys are 4s is just stupid. The results proved it. When John Beilein was doing color commentary in one of our earliest Big Ten games, he said "Well obviously you'd prefer to have Young at the 5 and Nance at the 4." Yes, obviously.
The other bad idea was that somehow Ryan Young, Miller Kopp and 3 guards would be effective together.
That approach got crushed game after game. In the Big Ten you have to rebound the basketball.
So at least 55% of the minutes went to counterproductive lineups. Frequently we started the game with Nance and Beran (bad idea #1) and then substituted Young and Gaines in for Nance and Beran, putting us into bad idea #2. That is a recipe for losing.
The "normal" NU lineups (A center, a power forward, a small forward and two guards) performed like an average Big Ten team. Just any random "normal" lineup - it didn't require Collins to understand that Buie was more productive than Audige, Greer and Gaines or that Nance was better than Beran. Just fill the 5 positions with guys who actually play those positions.
When playing time is uncorrelated with production, as it was last season, most people would conclude that there's a coaching problem.
I remain confident in our players, but I'm almost dreading what Collins is going to do this year. We have a lot of talent, everything is there for a good season. Ty Berry should be better than last year. Simmons, Barnhizer or Roper can contribute. Nicholson is just waiting to make an impact. We should win 9 games or more, but... the coach... the coach...
My non-expert assessment is that the overall talent level on the roster from top to bottom is deeper and more consistent under Collins than under Carmody, but that the top level talent is no better under Collins than under Carmody. I do question some of Collins' use of personnel. Like others, I have always thought that Young should play more and Beran should play less, and that Nance should not play the 5.
I can only speak for myself. I don’t believe NU has the top end star level players you need to win in the B1G. There are teams in this league that we wouldn’t have any players that started for them except Pete. That means at least 80% of the line up is better than ours. The best players on the top teams are better than our best players and they have more of them. We do not have the superstar killer that takes over. Plain as day. You just don’t beat teams often when there is such a discrepancy in top tier talent. You don’t believe me? Try this exercise, count the total top 50 & top 100 recruits by team. None of your line up gymnastics is going to consistently overcome the talent issue.
I do believe CCC has improved the talent on the 4-10 players on the team over CBC. However, basketball is a game dominated by the stars and without a corresponding increase in players 1-3 it’s still an uphill battle to win. I don’t find that a conflicting argument at all. So yes we see things very differently if you think NU is loaded with top tier talent. Some nice players, so far no great players.
I never claimed anybody on our roster is a top tier talent.
I just said our roster is mid-pack for the league and we should win 9 games, maybe a couple more with progress from just a couple of our current players.
My complaint is that Collins underperforms our midpack talent.
I think we are deeper than what Carmody had, but Carmody got more out of his team.
Eye for talent is a critical part of recruiting. Collins is a slick sales guy, nothing more. There’s more to recruiting than closing the deal.
He runs excellent sets? Based on what evidence? Is our offense more efficient than others? Are we racking up assists? Do we run teams out of the gym?
I told you the evidence that I, as a casual fan, have - announcers (typically the extra-player, like Bardo) repeatedly saying it.
Bottom line for me has always been Collins’ inability to win close games. If you’re in a close game, by definition you have the talent to compete with that team. Good coaches prepare their teams to win close games and figure out ways to get it done.
I think we have found that the evidence is that he is not materially worse than Carmody, who was the best X and Os guy around. And neither coach’s record in close games is good. It’s more due to talent, and there’s a difference between hanging around with an entire team and having one guy win a game at the end.
Good coaches figure it out. They prepare for key moments based on matchups and they know where to find mismatches based on the flow of that particular game. When you repeatedly lose close games during say a pattened NU 10-game losing streak, that is the sign of ineffective coaching.
BC had a system for offense, but X and O counts for D as well where he fell far short.
No. But when you combine all the institutional issues and impediments with poor coaching, you get several seasons with 10-game or longer losing streaks, consistent losing records and no post season.
Look I’m perfectly happy if you’re perfectly happy with Collins. I’ve always maintained if they got rid of him it would be very difficult to find someone who can recruit like him. I just think it’s a shame he’s squandered so many opportunities to win close games.
But I’ve pretty much tuned out of both NU football and basketball lately. Who needs the aggravation? There are so many good, fulfilling activities in the world. But let me ask you Gordie, what is your end game with Collins? Do you ever see him having a winning season again or a post season team? Is there another NCAA miracle hiding in there? Just curious where you think all this heading.
You almost pulled it off. Made it to the second to last sentence…so close!
I hope for the best for all of our sports teams, recognizing that, by striving to be the best academically and athletically, we will very, very likely not win championships in the major men’s revenue sports. Here I am now rather optimistic about NU basketball, after having watched it for 37 years. It’s really hard for me to say I was ever as optimistic in the past; we could all see year after year that we did not have talent, and that even great coaches could not succeed. Now we have a coach who has shown us real success, regressed (not that unexpectedly, given the slim margin for error in our program), and seems to be on the verge of recovering, rather than sliding down into the typical ill-fated abyss of an NU coach. I want us to reach a more sustained level of success (hard to define exactly, but I think we know it involves going to the NCAA most years), and I personally don’t think Collins is done with achieving success yet.
And yes, despite my passionate support, I’ve missed many games for other activities in life.
BTW and however - I’ll be heading out to Iowa football game and then to Wisconsin game for two different trips/reasons.
An NCAA with some of the other guy’s players and boo since. And pro players afterwards supports the notion of bad coaching. We had pros and could not make any tourney?
zags 25-30? Don’t think so. I went to Pep for law school and that was when they too became relevant. Try 15-20. Meaning they found consecutive good coaches.
CCC has some of the highest recruits yet has made one post season tourney that including prior coach’s players. We have played in the post season. We have had top level talent - without depth.
Either pay the man and budget the program at the level you expect or keep looking for better if you are willing to spend the money. Pay the man to do a job I could do… that’s dumb. And yes gcg, like a room full of monkeys typing out Shakespeare, I could coach a few games to victory.
Never have a heard this. Car most was praised for inbound plays. I have zero recollection of CCC praised for O sets.
