The NIT is utterly meaningless, and anyone who touts an NIT berth as an accomplishment is a loser...
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I guess it’s all relative. It’s better than finishing in 10th place like we usually do and being ranked 160th.
Brown is gone
- Thread starter CoralSpringsCat
- Start date
The NIT is utterly meaningless, and anyone who touts an NIT berth as an accomplishment is a loser...
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I guess it’s all relative. It’s better than finishing in 10th place like we usually do and being ranked 160th.
No one cares about final rankings except you. All that matters is if you made The Tournament or not.
Yo Mystic, I have not engaged with you yet. Sometimes I think you offer a fair dose of reality, other times I think you go over the top.
I think I stated that CCC does not impress me as a game day coach - the line up card snafu is within that characterization. But the 5 year thing - does not bother me yet. I believe a coach deserves some time under his own recruits - and that is not simply year 4. Recruiting takes time to cultivate and establish relationships. CCC came in and quickly grabbed what he could - and landed Law and Mac while whiffiing on Vassor and probably breaking even on Lindsey and Skelly. Not bad for no prep time.
His subsequent years have result in seeming more mixed bags. But he began building his recruiting network and establishing relationships. I am pretty happy with the incoming class and believe it represents maturation of this process. I am disappointed in last year's class - I had expected this maturation back then. But alas, I feel it has arrived. So, in my book, CCC is now on the clock. The next few years will represent his work - in recruiting, in developing and in game day. If CCC cannot bring the program to regular NITs with NCAAs sprinkled in, then I will start beating the drum. (Kinda like the drumbeat that I have started on the FB side...).
If you are a NU fan (a frustrated one like many of us) and maybe even a BC fan, I think you can agree that in fairness, CCC deserves a handful of years under his system with the players he had the time to recruit and bring in to build a program. CCC is human - Vassar, Brown, maybe Falzon and RI, are evidence. Not many gods in coaching. I would be happy if NU developed a competitive program over the next couple years. Then I would raise the bar again. Walk, then run.
(btw, for Va, Walker and the rest of you crackpots - if you a. think that this does not demonstrate that I am not a CCC hater or NU hater and b. you do not think this is a fair approach to the state of the program, then you need to find a 12 Step Program for your Purple Koolaid addiction. I recommend a product often suggested by a long time Board member, drano.)
Fair points about the need to build relationships in recruiting. The 2018 class is a step-change from his other classes. Time will tell if the results on the floor live up to the vaunted expectations. It will be very interesting to see how the 2019 class shapes up with new facilities in place.
I don't get what you mean about Collins being "on the clock". The dude has a contract through 2025 and like it or not, he will be at NU well into the 2020's whether he repeats his NCAA Tournament bid or not. Beat your drum all you want but I doubt Phillips or his successor will be reading these boards. Maybe Fitz can tell him since we KNOW he lurks here......
Ok.
I’d just rather be in the next 4 out in years we don’t make the tourney, than the next 104 out.
Agree with everything you say. And I’m nowhere near saying we should be making a shortlist for CCs replacement.... yet.
Agree especially about the need for more recruiting cycles. Next years incoming class could make or break us for the short term. My point is that we’ve been 10th in 60% of his time and 9th once. That’s 80% of his career (and I’d be mildly surprised if next year isn’t similar).
There’s just too much deadweight in the program. Vassar, Skelly, brown, Gaines, falzon, rap, ash...
If the talent level doesn’t increase across the board, we’re toast, because I don’t thing anyone believes CC is going to outcoach very many Big 10 coaches who have superior talent.
I’m all for CC but objectively, it’s hard to argue anything has changed. I’m sure the arena will help though.
Gaines deadweight? After one year? He showed quite a bit of potential last year. Falzon has showed potential when healthy and we haven't seen a healthy Rap yet. Ash is a decent back up guard. He is no starter but he can handle the ball okay defend solidly and is pretty athletic. Brown isn't in the program anymore and he scored some key points in the year we went to the dance. Skelly also isn't in the program anymore and I would hardly call such a high energy guy off the bench deadweight. Did he have a rough senior year? sure but the dude was pretty dang solid of the bench in a limited scenario and had some very momentum switching stretches of play. I do get Collins isn't the best coach ever, he is not perfect, but seriously he is not nearly as bad as you portray he us.
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I’m not saying he is a “bad” coach.
I do think he makes too many rookie mistakes in year 5 that makes one wonder what his ceiling is.
But if he can recruit we’ll be ok. The jury is certainly out on this point.
But not just getting an occasional great player. BC did that a lot. Lots of programs do. The key obviously is to get back to back great classes. Our implosion late this year is a perfect example. My list above just shows how many non contributors CC has brought in. Not saying it’s easy or that that makes him a bad coach... just saying in the Big 10 if you have an empty recruiting cycle, your gonna be down for a long time. Since we have bottom half recruits anyway, it’s even more dangerous for us.
I’m not saying he is a “bad” coach.
I do think he makes too many rookie mistakes in year 5 that makes one wonder what his ceiling is.
But if he can recruit we’ll be ok. The jury is certainly out on this point.
But not just getting an occasional great player. BC did that a lot. Lots of programs do. The key obviously is to get back to back great classes. Our implosion late this year is a perfect example. My list above just shows how many non contributors CC has brought in. Not saying it’s easy or that that makes him a bad coach... just saying in the Big 10 if you have an empty recruiting cycle, your gonna be down for a long time. Since we have bottom half recruits anyway, it’s even more dangerous for us.
11th
7th
10th
5th
8th
8th
10th
11th
9th
7th
8th
7th
11th
Walk me through how that's really all that much better/different.
Don't know if two misses in four recruiting classes can be called a huge miss by Collins and his staff. One of the misses rests at least a lot on the
First Collins is likely in line for 9 more years. secondly if you think that Gaines is deadweight, then you obviously know as little about basketball as you do in coaches.
Interesting thoughts here.
Some coaches advocate that you need two great players to make noise. One isn't enough.
But the argument can be made that NU isn't in a position to get great players. NU can get good and really good players (Shurna, Esch, etc.), but we've not seen great in decades and decades. Esch is the closest, IMO (and might be there). So, we're not in the "need two great players" category, in which schools like OSU reside...bringing in tons of top level takent from which a couples greats are more likely to arise.
NU has been and will be a developmental destination. Good players who have the physical makeup to become great. And so if you're going to compete every year, you can't have sub standard years (because there's a lot more "good" out there than "great"). You have to be more like Wisconsin with 3ish good kids coming in every year.
I think it's a legit take.
I would just add that IMO the current staff has higher standards than previous staffs (note plural). They won't take best available if that player doesn't check all the boxes for "good". And so a year like last, with just Gaines. I'd argue that's better than filling up the roster with kids that aren't going to find the floor.
At least Collins has shown his willingness to spend time recruiting. Also he's on campus when potential recruits visit.
Fair points about the need to build relationships in recruiting. The 2018 class is a step-change from his other classes. Time will tell if the results on the floor live up to the vaunted expectations. It will be very interesting to see how the 2019 class shapes up with new facilities in place.
I don't get what you mean about Collins being "on the clock". The dude has a contract through 2025 and like it or not, he will be at NU well into the 2020's whether he repeats his NCAA Tournament bid or not. Beat your drum all you want but I doubt Phillips or his successor will be reading these boards. Maybe Fitz can tell him since we KNOW he lurks here......
By on the clock, I mean my clock for CCC is ticking before I turn into mystic
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Its not, that’s the whole point.
Those years average out to a higher finish than CC”s do over his tenure. Including half a decade in with all his own players finishing 10th with one quality win all year.
But thanks for making my point.
Its not, that’s the whole point.
Those years average out to a higher finish than CC”s do over his tenure. Including half a decade in with all his own players finishing 10th with one quality win all year.
But thanks for making my point.
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Too quick to label here. Vassar & Brown - yes. Skelly - got a lot from a lowly regarded recruit brought in last-second during the same recruiting year that CCC was hired. I think he exceeded expectations and was best use of a schollie at the time. Gaines - not ready to agree here. I don't expect much out of freshman. Falzon - I am not the supporter others here are. I think Falzon will prove to be a bust, but I hope I am proven wrong. Rap - Seemingly bust Ash - BC recruit, confirmed into the program by CCC, but recruited by BC. So, a few on the minus side, a few on the plus side and a few TBD. But they arrive at a time when CCC was afforded the opportunity to build long recruiting relationships. So - pass.
As stated above, I give a pass for the last several years due to regime change and the need to build a system and relationships. So the ranks don't mean much while the NCAA berth is a Godsend. In my book, CCC really begins his era next season. A team of fully developed, home grown recruits of his choosing. And putting so many eggs in the Lathom basket makes me really nervous. Next year can be really special, or really bad. And it all sits on CCC's head. No excuses. Don't care about injuries, WR Arena, the tooth fairy. As of next fall, I join the put up or shut up squad but I begin with a clean slate.
Well, there is one big difference. I think people call it "The dance".
I didn't grade out all four as it would involved too many TBD. If forced, then as of today, count Falzon and RI as busts. Count Gaines as 'I Dunno.' Be fair - don't force it. The early hiccups in the CCC recruits can also be attributed to taking what you can get when you have not had time to evaluate and recruit for the several years a player develops in HS. Not a big deal.
It might just be semantics, but Esch and Shurna were both First Team All Big 10 and All Americans. That might not qualify as "great" but pretty damn close. And Esch made some NBA money. If those guys aren't great which NU player would you call Great? Otto?
Right. I’m not saying he missed on 2 of 4. Just that that can’t hapoen hopefully because our margin of error is pretty thin vis a vis the Big 10.
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NIT! NIT! NIT!
Would you rather finish 8th, 8th, 7th and 8th in the conference and go to the NIT all four years or finish 9th, 10th, 6th, and 9th and go the NCAA tournament once during those four years? Gee, I don't know. That's a tough one. In his 4th year, Chris Collins did the only thing that matters in college basketball and he did it starting 4 of his recruits. Nobody gives a shit if we finish 9th or 8th or 7th in the conference other than you (and I don't really believe you do either). Did we go the NCAA's? Are we building to that? Those are the only two questions that really matter from a performance perspective. Obviously, if Collins were to go 3 and 33 over the next two seasons, I would expect him to be fired. That would be truly awful. No one could survive that. But I expect the team will be very competitive next year if everyone is healthy and I hope that at least two of the freshmen have all-conference potential.
This was a disappointing year. No doubt about it. But if we go the NCAA tournament once every 5 years, that would still be better than any other coach in school history.
And Gavin Skelly was a solid rotation player who had a bad senior year when he was asked to play too much. He made significant contributions in several big games throughout his career. He was no Chier Ajou or Mike Turner. He was a B1G caliber player.
4 points, 2 rebounds, 1 assist, 1 turnover. 24% from 3 and 43% overall on a 10th place team.
Not sure what you’d call that.
Not saying he won’t be good some day but I think non contributor is fair for now.
Yeah I wrote something along these lines when people were getting excited about us potentially coming back to snag an NIT berth.
I was basically like "sure if we make it I'll watch the games and cheer for them, and it'd be nice for the seniors to play a bit more, but for the most part... don't care."
I would consider myself well into the upper 1% of CBB fans in the country, have seen at least part of nearly every NCAAT game this season, and yet I have not watched a single NIT game this year. That is true for the majority of years that NU is not in the NIT.
It was a nice thing when we had never ever made the tournament and barely even made postseason play ever in recent history, but now we should be past that. It is a consolation prize that is certainly better than no postseason, but not something to aspire to IMO.
(PS my comment has nothing to do with nor is it trying to take sides in this silly reincarnation of a CC debate... but for the record I remain very positive on him and what he's done)
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His solid defense doesn't show up on the stat sheet. Also calling any freshman deadweight is plain idiotic. It's just as bad as expecting any not top 10 to be an instant impact starter. (Not saying you're doing the latter just don't like that either)
Edit to add anyone with an eye for basketball can tell ya Gaines has the potential to be solid contributer to a contending B1G team. (Not saying NU will be contending or Gaines will be a star just not a weak point at all)
Those stats are for a true freshman who is playing what 15, 16 minutes a game? Come on man. . .you act like he was a starter playing 35+ minutes every outing.
Yeah... his “per 40” essentially show a guy who has potential but plenty to work on: 8.6 points, 5.4 rebounds, 2.5 assists, 1.9 TOs, and 1.1 steals.
Thanks for doing the math, and your description of him is spot on. Calling him "dead weight" and putting him the same category as Rap who never played a game is just silly.
The 2019 recruiting class will be extremely interesting and will be Exhibit 1 on how NU’s brand perception has changed, if at all, after making the NCAA Tournament then having a bad year. No longer are recruits coming to “make history” with the First Dance (though there’s plenty still left to make). Lathon, Nance and Kopp all signed on thinking they’d be playing for a Big Ten contender. Can Collins still make that claim? Maybe.
The other big selling point of course is the new arena, but that’s not going to be completed by the time NU needs these 2019 players on board.
I’m nervous about the 2019 class. Law and Pardon will be major losses. And right now Collins is aiming high but I hear nothing about NU’s chances with, say, Nobal Days.
Come on man. . .you act like he was a starter playing 35+ minutes every outing.
What are you even you even talking about? Do you see any reference to minutes played in my post?
I'd like to hear an explanation of what Collins has done so poorly in RI's three games of availability in two years. He's mentioned three or four times as one if the points against Collins. I'd like to hear more details on what Collins did so poorly with RI.
You mad we made the tournament last year?
Right, cause I went to handful of games. Remind us, how many did you attend? You get to drunk on the koolaid and can't drive to the games...
I will take this one. RI has been injured from the beginning. Whether he chased an injury prone star, or his staff failed to get him healthy, or the ghost of BC doomed him, he is a CCC recruit. And all successes and failures land on his resume. Stop cherry picking - you cannot have the diamond in the rough Mac and hide the ones that didn't work out too.
Well of course not, had you included his minutes it would have undercut your bad argument and you usually leave that up to other folks.
With all those maybe-could-be-almost-but-not-sure scenarios based completely in "objectivity," you should work for someone's election campaign.
I can see from "all failures land on his resume" and "don't care about injuries" we're in the meathead phase of the discussion. That's fine. If we're not going to base your discussion in reality, I have no problem getting off the train.
But I do have one last question. Since we're not accepting "cherry picking" or complexity into the discussion, can I assume this will be the last we hear about the line up card that absolutely no one cares about?
