Collins’ Future

[clarificationcat]

Did he also mention that Nicholson and Roper would be starting for his team?

7'1" 270 lbs players like MN get tired when the coach has them running all over the court on both offense AND defense.

I give him credit for his effort although I was surprised he raised his arm to be subbed out after we turned a 25-20 deficit into a 38-35 lead late in the first half. It was only a 7:15 segment.

And the banked-in free throw was a clever technique to break the Spartans' spirit.

Very few teams in the country don't have the center running all over the court on offense and defense. Matt's not effective enough to be camped under the basket offensively. And every team runs pick and roll with the center so there is very little you can do about that defensively.

I really think Barnhizer might be our best post option. He's pretty crafty and a decent passer. Verhoeven works hard on defense and is a pretty good rebounder but he does not appear to have any consistent moves with his back to the basket. Matt cuts hard to the basket and runs the court well for his size. But I have not seen anything yet to suggest he has moves in the post. I know that we don't get him the ball down there very often, at all, but I am guessing part of that is based on performance in practice.

 

[rwhitney014]

There are things I like about MN. I like that he can be a presence at the rim on defense. I like that we finally have a center who can take the feed on the slip-screen and jam it through with authority. But at the same time, I haven't seen a center in a while who is as inept as MN is at making layups at the basket. He had multiple scoring opportunities from two feet in against a smaller opponent and he missed them horribly. Like, really horribly. He really is the anti-Ryan Young in many ways. I don't how he hasn't developed that two-foot game after three years in the program. The guy should be doing Mikan drills all-day, everyday. Because if he could score, he would be really something for this team.

I’ll trade the couple of bugaboos you’re mentioning for the absolute hammer throw downs he seems to have once or twice a game, including the ability to do it on fast breaks or even dribble drives. Great for momentum, for making defenders think twice about challenging him in the post, etc. Need to see more attacking from this team and that’s a great way to do it versus a nice piece of footwork on a shot that can still get blocked.

UPDATE: many, many fewer attempts so it’s not apples to apples, but Nicholson’s FG% this year is higher than Young’s ever was here. (Though not higher than Young’s is this year at Duke.) It’s also higher than Zach Edey’s is, or ever was, at Purdue.

I also appreciate that the Ryan Young 3-pointer is out of the offense, because that gave up whatever efficiency Young may have provided in the post. No coincidence that he hasn’t taken one yet at Duke.

 

[clarificationcat]

Exactly. It's harder to see Beran as an anomaly after the underachievement of Falzon, Ivanauskas, and even Nance to a certain extent. The most frustrating part about this team is if Beran could be a 10-15 ppg scorer (not an unprecedented thing to ask of a 4-star in his senior year), we'd contend for the dance.

Falzon was one dimensional when he came in the program. He was not a great athlete and, once he got hurt, was really limited. But he could get his shot off against almost anybody and could have been a more explosive Taphorn if he hadn't gotten hurt. Ivanauskas was hurt almost the whole time he was at NU and I don't think he was as highly rated as the other guys coming out of high school (on a consensus basis). Beran, however, was highly rated and has never developed any kind of offensive game other than the 3. I think that falls on Collins and his staff. Beran just can't finish around the basket. Has no post game. I think he's a good defender and a good rebounder but we need guys like him to be stars.

 

[hoosboot]

He had multiple scoring opportunities from two feet in against a smaller opponent and he missed them horribly.

That must have been the only two shots he missed because he was 2 for 4 from the field. MN can't be missing THAT many shots because we would kill for the rest of the team to have the FG% that he does.

 

[clarificationcat]

I’ll trade the couple of bugaboos you’re mentioning for the absolute hammer throw downs he seems to have once or twice a game, including the ability to do it on fast breaks or even dribble drives. Great for momentum, for making defenders think twice about challenging him in the post, etc. Need to see more attacking from this team and that’s a great way to do it versus a nice piece of footwork on a shot that can still get blocked.

UPDATE: many, many fewer attempts so it’s not apples to apples, but Nicholson’s FG% this year is higher than Young’s ever was here. (Though not higher than Young’s is this year at Duke.) It’s also higher than Zach Edey’s is, or ever was, at Purdue.

I also appreciate that the Ryan Young 3-pointer is out of the offense, because that gave up whatever efficiency Young may have provided in the post. No coincidence that he hasn’t taken one yet at Duke.

He shot eight 3-pointers in his last 2 years in the program (6 last year and 2 the year before). Don't think we gave up much of anything. I actually think we did a really nice job of getting him the ball last year in positions where he could be effective. He's not huge so he's not capable of backing guys down consistently. We would often reverse the ball after he set a screen up top and then he would drop down in a position to make a quick move. At Duke this year, a lot of his points are coming off of offensive rebounds. They have lots of scoring options so he is free to focus on that. He's great at it.

 

[elgatoloco]

Here it is. I don't think he comment about giving Collins enough credit was bad, he was referring to what he said in his opening remarks about the game. Check out his comments around 9:00, about how Collins has improved the defense, and made Audige more of a passer, "played under control" ("maybe it was the haircut"), "Boo no crazy shots and he guarded":

View embedded media

Not sure why people are questioning Izzo's intent. He's a good guy behind the scenes, very helpful and encouraging to other coaches, players, and programs.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

No. One of their guards is h

Very few teams in the country don't have the center running all over the court on offense and defense. Matt's not effective enough to be camped under the basket offensively. And every team runs pick and roll with the center so there is very little you can do about that defensively.

I really think Barnhizer might be our best post option. He's pretty crafty and a decent passer. Verhoeven works hard on defense and is a pretty good rebounder but he does not appear to have any consistent moves with his back to the basket. Matt cuts hard to the basket and runs the court well for his size. But I have not seen anything yet to suggest he has moves in the post. I know that we don't get him the ball down there very often, at all, but I am guessing part of that is based on performance in practice.

I think your assesment is fair, but Nicholson is bigger than most centers, so the running around affects him more than a guy like Verhoeven or Rutgers' Omoruyi or less bulky college centers.

I'm not saying MN needs to camp in the lane all the time, but there are times when he can score down there. There are guys on the team like Barnhizer and Roper and Audige who want to get in the paint and mix it up (like a lot of SEC teams). Nicholson sets good screens and actually seems to be getting decent at it. I'm just thinking we need more variety and more attacking the basket is warranted.

Barnhizer is an interesting case - in my mind, a protypical small forward. The games so far are indicating that playing Barnhizer at the 3, with Beran at the 4 is effective.
(I have NU winning 100-85 when Beran is teamed with Barnhizer, but losing 82-70 when Barnhizer is playing Beran's position)

 

[clarificationcat]

I think your assesment is fair, but Nicholson is bigger than most centers, so the running around affects him more than a guy like Verhoeven or Rutgers' Omoruyi or less bulky college centers.

I'm not saying MN needs to camp in the lane all the time, but there are times when he can score down there. There are guys on the team like Barnhizer and Roper and Audige who want to get in the paint and mix it up (like a lot of SEC teams). Nicholson sets good screens and actually seems to be getting decent at it. I'm just thinking we need more variety and more attacking the basket is warranted.

Barnhizer is an interesting case - in my mind, a protypical small forward. The games so far are indicating that playing Barnhizer at the 3, with Beran at the 4 is effective.
(I have NU winning 100-85 when Beran is teamed with Barnhizer, but losing 82-70 when Barnhizer is playing Beran's position)

I am fine with him as a 3. I just think that if we want to get the ball in the post, he might be our most effective option at this point. I am fine getting Matt a few more looks with his back to the basket to see what he can do.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

That must have been the only two shots he missed because he was 2 for 4 from the field. MN can't be missing THAT many shots because we would kill for the rest of the team to have the FG% that he does.

MN missed a left-handed baby hook bank shot on the baseline when somebody got him the ball in the half court.

He also missed a putback after taking the offensive rebound over a guy who had inside position, then trying to bank it in over that defender. A second MSU defender came from behind him and hacked at the ball as he was shooting, no call.

 

[TheC]

That must have been the only two shots he missed because he was 2 for 4 from the field. MN can't be missing THAT many shots because we would kill for the rest of the team to have the FG% that he does.

My point is not that he is hurting us by missing a ton of shots. My point is that he is not the weapon he could be if he were just a little more proficient scoring around the rim. It would really open up the offense if he had an inside game. With his size, he could take over for stretches. We would have another option besides praying that Boo or Chase get hot.

 

[Sec.112]

AD doing that set back the program so much from a recruiting perspective. Even if NU makes the tournament and Collins gets kept… the AD basically killed this years recruiting class.

Honestly, I can't believe CC has been able to bring on anyone.

 

[Hungry Jack]

My point is not that he is hurting us by missing a ton of shots. My point is that he is not the weapon he could be if he were just a little more proficient scoring around the rim. It would really open up the offense if he had an inside game. With his size, he could take over for stretches. We would have another option besides praying that Boo or Chase get hot.

He is averaging 3.7 shots per game, and making 2.3 (64%), which means he is missing 1.4.

1.4 shots per game missed.

But I agree that if he could develop a low post offensive game, it would be a big help.

 

[docrugby1]

Falzon was one dimensional when he came in the program. He was not a great athlete and, once he got hurt, was really limited. But he could get his shot off against almost anybody and could have been a more explosive Taphorn if he hadn't gotten hurt. Ivanauskas was hurt almost the whole time he was at NU and I don't think he was as highly rated as the other guys coming out of high school (on a consensus basis). Beran, however, was highly rated and has never developed any kind of offensive game other than the 3. I think that falls on Collins and his staff. Beran just can't finish around the basket. Has no post game. I think he's a good defender and a good rebounder but we need guys like him to be stars.

I agree that Beran should be a more consistent scorer. He has a beautiful 3 pt stroke but NU's offense does not employ the kick out that Pitt used to destroy NU. Beran and Berry would be 15ppg scorers if NU could use Buie or Audige to draw double teams and then pass back out.

The team is playing hard for CC. NU was not going to beat Pitt last week in light of their extraordinary 3pt % and hopefully that game will be a rare outlier. If NU can improve their shooting NU may surprise a few teams but on off days, they can lose big as their offense does not create a lot of open looks

 

[hoosboot]

He is averaging 3.7 shots per game, and making 2.3 (64%), which means he is missing 1.4.

1.4 shots per game missed.

But I agree that if he could develop a low post offensive game, it would be a big help.

More low post motion with off-ball screens to allow MN to set up strong low post position while the ball is swinging to allow him to get shots in more rhythm seems like an obvious way to help develop that idea. Nicholson isn't yet that sort of "dump it in, clear out, and let him go to work" kind of offensive center yet at the college level (don't know if he'll ever be). But NU's offense could be helped greatly if we used off ball action to get guys like him to a spot on the floor where they are comfortable with a favorable matchup.

 

[kreggk]

Won't link the source, but here's part of the transcript ...

"Shit, I’m happy for Chris. He did a hell of a job and he’s gone through a lot himself, people over there ripping him for this and that. Not easy at Northwestern to do what he’s done and losing some players he lost. He deserves a lot more credit on this whole thing than maybe I gave him early. He did his job and he got those guys ready. I told Audige after the game, I told Buie, and this is the greatest coaching thing I can tell Chris – those guys just shot shots last year. I thought they threw up shots and I didn’t think they guarded very well. And right now that might be as good a defensive team – they held Auburn to 42 or (43) points – that I’ve seen as far as come at you and get after you. And they’re all experienced guys and they’re all at the perimeter, then they rotate guys inside. He’s done a hell of a job getting Audige to become more of a passer. He really played under control compared to last year. Maybe it was the haircut and the whole look. I give him a lot of credit, I told him that after the game. I thought even Boo Buie, there were no crazy shots and he guarded. That was a better Northwestern team because of the way they guard. They’re a very good defensive team."

He's the best.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

He is averaging 3.7 shots per game, and making 2.3 (64%), which means he is missing 1.4.

1.4 shots per game missed.

But I agree that if he could develop a low post offensive game, it would be a big help.

Big Matt is what he is. You take the bad with the good. It is up to the staff to figure out how to get more of the good each game. I like his effort every time he sees the floor.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

More low post motion with off-ball screens to allow MN to set up strong low post position while the ball is swinging to allow him to get shots in more rhythm seems like an obvious way to help develop that idea. Nicholson isn't yet that sort of "dump it in, clear out, and let him go to work" kind of offensive center yet at the college level (don't know if he'll ever be). But NU's offense could be helped greatly if we used off ball action to get guys like him to a spot on the floor where they are comfortable with a favorable matchup.

This comment was like a light bulb for me. It clarified what we don't do on offense. We never screen to get guys mismatches or good position in the low post. And we don't set a lot of screens off the ball to get shooters (like Beran) good looks.

Why is that?

 

[GatoLouco]

This comment was like a light bulb for me. It clarified what we don't do on offense. We never screen to get guys mismatches or good position in the low post. And we don't set a lot of screens off the ball to get shooters (like Beran) good looks.

Why is that?

It has been like that under CC from the beginning. He comes from the school of motion offense. Screens are for creating driving lanes. Designed to facilitate penetration.

Nightmares of Pardon's last season, when he was 1 of 2 of our best offensive weapons and ended up setting screens outside the 3 point line, over and over again.

It's not unique, little Pitino had Oturu, for 2 years, doing the same.

@hoosboot is, IMO, right. More off ball screens would help big Matt's production. As is, he is stuck rolling to the basket, the occasional lob or offensive rebound resulting from it.

 

[Hungry Jack]

More low post motion with off-ball screens to allow MN to set up strong low post position while the ball is swinging to allow him to get shots in more rhythm seems like an obvious way to help develop that idea. Nicholson isn't yet that sort of "dump it in, clear out, and let him go to work" kind of offensive center yet at the college level (don't know if he'll ever be). But NU's offense could be helped greatly if we used off ball action to get guys like him to a spot on the floor where they are comfortable with a favorable matchup.

I ran through this through Google Translator and it all checks out.

 

[EagerFan]

Weren't people demanding the AD (or at least the athletic department) make a statement that "this will not be tolerated in the future?" or something along those lines? Well, okay, that is what the AD did in response to fan anger or so I thought at the time.

Actually, I think many on the board were also critical that the AD's statement wasn't strong enough and too open to interpretation or something.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

It has been like that under CC from the beginning. He comes from the school of motion offense. Screens are for creating driving lanes. Designed to facilitate penetration.

Nightmares of Pardon's last season, when he was 1 of 2 of our best offensive weapons and ended up setting screens outside the 3 point line, over and over again.

It's not unique, little Pitino had Oturu, for 2 years, doing the same.

@hoosboot is, IMO, right. More off ball screens would help big Matt's production. As is, he is stuck rolling to the basket, the occasional lob or offensive rebound resulting from it.

The School of Motion Offense (SMO) is the basketball equivalent of a party school.

While the "motion offense" probably sounds awesome when you're floating over the court listening to Pink Floyd, sometimes you have to put the bong down and study what actually works with college players.

Screening away from the ball forces the defense to react and creates open looks for easy baskets.

 

[Catreporter]

I'm really rooting for Matt but he doesn't look like a post up option to me. Hasn't shown much touch at all and he is a bad free throw shooter (I consider his 3-for-4 Sunday as part of the MSU miracle). He runs the floor well and is very good at finishing lob passes at the rum. He's also a defensive presence out there.

 

[GatoLouco]

The School of Motion Offense (SMO) is the basketball equivalent of a party school.

While the "motion offense" probably sounds awesome when you're floating over the court listening to Pink Floyd, sometimes you have to put the bong down and study what actually works with college players.

Screening away from the ball forces the defense to react and creates open looks for easy baskets.

There's a reason the motion offense is so popular. It's what you see all NBA teams use. It was an obvious evolution from the times or Reggie Miller being screened for 10 times in each possession. It creates better looks with penetration and kicking it to shooters. Some teams do it ad nauseum to one player. Doncic, or the Harden of the Rockets.

The problem, IMO, is that it relies on having guards that can penetrate. The front court out tries to create the motion and space for said penetrations. From my limited perspective of viewing games, good examples of success in college ball are Villanova or Baylor. We don't have such clear slashers against the competition we face.

Having said all this, for this particular season, it's probably the best overall offense we can have. Pray Buie can have a great season! Does not mean we can't give different looks.

 

[hoosboot]

I think my understanding of what a "motion offense" is different than yours. A traditional motion offense to my understanding doesn't run "plays" like you see in most NBA offenses. My understanding is that it has a set of principles that involve cutting, screening, and passing based upon the location of the ball and the defenders and those actions are run without the need for a play to be called. They can call a play if the shot clock is running down or a special need necessitates it, but they don't typically do so in the course of their usual offense.

But all of that doesn't really relate to whether a team uses off-ball screens. There are teams that run plays that use off-ball screens and there are teams that run "motion" that use off-ball screens. NU just chooses to primarily use on-ball screens because (I'm guessing) the offense is trying to maximize one of two outcomes - something going hard to the basket or someone shooting a 3 pt shot for players perimeter players.

 

[GatoLouco]

We are discussing terms that are usually only important for people writing papers. You are right that the origins of the motion offense are what you pointed out. And it has been around for a long, long time.

Maybe I don't have the terminology. I have read things like Villanova's motion offense, dribble drive motion offense, etc, etc. I am not sure what terminology to use for NU. 5 out motion offense? Not sure.

 

[hoosboot]

We are discussing terms that are usually only important for people writing papers. You are right that the origins of the motion offense are what you pointed out. And it has been around for a long, long time.

Maybe I don't have the terminology. I have read things like Villanova's motion offense, dribble drive motion offense, etc, etc. I am not sure what terminology to use for NU. 5 out motion offense? Not sure.

All good points. I shouldn't have jumped on that point as I see that terminology used, too. It seems foreign to me though that people call Duke's offense a dribble drive motion offense because there is no ball movement and there's not a ton of off-ball movement by other players. It's basically a drive and kick offense, but people have called it a motion offense, maybe because K's original offensive schemes were built off of Knight's motion offense philosophies. The offense for K's later Duke teams seems far removed from his early offenses.

 

[GatoLouco]

All good points. I shouldn't have jumped on that point as I see that terminology used, too. It seems foreign to me though that people call Duke's offense a dribble drive motion offense because there is no ball movement and there's not a ton of off-ball movement by other players. It's basically a drive and kick offense, but people have called it a motion offense, maybe because K's original offensive schemes were built off of Knight's motion offense philosophies. The offense for K's later Duke teams seems far removed from his early offenses.

Yeah. I hear you. Recently I heard something like a “high pick and roll offense” and thought that was maybe the terminology that matched what you see in the NBA.

Matched, in my mind, the seeing how often that is just waiting for Doncic, to mention an extreme example, to do something, without much motion elsewhere,

 

[IGNORE2]

I have never understood why off ball, low post screens aren’t used so much more. Timed to swinging the ball around the perimeter, it causes D to make some decisions. Double from the drop in leaves the passer open for three. Double low on the screen leaves weak side open for reverse skip pass. No double leaves miss match.

 

[Rebel II]

I had convinced myself that he had to go after this season regardless of results on the court.

Now I’m not convinced he has to go. I’m not saying I’m convinced he should stay, but I am wondering if he’s a better coach than I thought.

Izzo made some comments about Boo and Chase, and a few other statements about our play, that gives me pause (about firing CCC). Granted, Izzo always praises Collins but this time it was a bit more coachiness and less politeness after our second straight win in East Lansing.

Would love to have your take on CCC. Lots of season left.

I had the exact same feeling. If competitive in the B1G he may well save his job. And NU could still save a rather large buy out!

 

[Sec.112]

All good points. I shouldn't have jumped on that point as I see that terminology used, too. It seems foreign to me though that people call Duke's offense a dribble drive motion offense because there is no ball movement and there's not a ton of off-ball movement by other players. It's basically a drive and kick offense, but people have called it a motion offense, maybe because K's original offensive schemes were built off of Knight's motion offense philosophies. The offense for K's later Duke teams seems far removed from his early offenses.

Later in his career, K became strongly influenced by the offensive philosophy of D'Antoni. I believe their Olympic experience together is where K evolved.

 

[TheC]

In high school we used the Bobby Knight motion offense that included off ball screens, including screens set in the post as the ultimate goal was to pound the ball inside on the block.

 

[hoosboot]

Later in his career, K became strongly influenced by the offensive philosophy of D'Antoni. I believe their Olympic experience together is where K evolved.

I can totally buy that. He definitely seemed to became more of a "sets" guy later on and that's something D'Antoni was already great at.

 

[hdhntr1]

AD doing that set back the program so much from a recruiting perspective. Even if NU makes the tournament and Collins gets kept… the AD basically killed this years recruiting class.

While true, hard to say that Collins did that great with the higher rated players. Best team was more of a mixture of 2 and 3 star kids that played well together. But part of that mix was also Baldwin as an assistant coach. Anybody notice that he is on the Georgetown bench these days? Wonder why we did not try or were unable to bring him back into the fold

 

[Catreporter]

Well Pat will be job searching again next year because Patrick Ewing is going to get fired. Terrible, undisciplined play and poor defense turned Georgetown's early 20-6 lead at Syracuse into a double digit loss. And I saw them blow a win over South Carolina when one of their players grabbed a guy's jersey as a pass sailed over his head in the dying seconds and got called for an intentional foul.

 

[Alaskawildkat]

I think that pretty much sums it. If we make the tourney (not that I think we will) one can make an argument we could be players in the portal.

I believe the AD had to have the "come to Jesus" conversation with Collins putting him on the hot seat. Just don't understand how that conversation needed to be public in the form of a statement. The ripples on recruiting were completely predictable.

If correct that was very poor judgment and reflects badly on the AD.

 

[Titanium999]

The last 2 classes

Bad move

 

[ballerog711]

I think this coaching staff deserves another year. Defensively the team has bought in for the most part. Only issue is being out out position occasionally for Boo.

They are playing hard and are playing together.

Hopefully, they add another grad transfer that can help with scoring and has iq.

I think the new staff picked the kids coming in and hopefully they come in with the mindset of the new staff. Martenekli looks like he can help next year.

 

[NUCat320]

I think this coaching staff deserves another year. Defensively the team has bought in for the most part. Only issue is being out out position occasionally for Boo.

They are playing hard and are playing together.

Hopefully, they add another grad transfer that can help with scoring and has iq.

I think the new staff picked the kids coming in and hopefully they come in with the mindset of the new staff. Martenekli looks like he can help next year.

While I agree that the team is playing harder than they have defensively since 2017, and I truly enjoy what I’ve seen, this is a really huge leap after one conference game, an excellent performance in a loss, and a dismal performance in a loss. (Was Georgetown worth anything? As much as Liberty?)

I’ll reserve judgment until March.

 

[CappyNU]

I think this coaching staff deserves another year. Defensively the team has bought in for the most part. Only issue is being out out position occasionally for Boo.

Yeah it is way too early to make this statement given the offensive struggles.

 

[NJCat]

I think this coaching staff deserves another year. Defensively the team has bought in for the most part. Only issue is being out out position occasionally for Boo.

They are playing hard and are playing together.

Unless Bo and Chase return for their freebie Covid year, next year will be a train wreck. Who is going to play PG? A true FY? Who is going to transfer into a program with a lame duck HC? The team will be young, and well below the scholarship limit. The only reason to keep him is to avoid 1 year of the buy-out.