Give Collins an extension

[SDakaGordie]

It was a moonshot. He couldn’t get the approval to deservedly fire CCC last year. If you fire a coach, portal rules say you’re getting an exodus anyway, so there aren’t any recruits to hold on to. It’s a totally fresh start.

I generally think that the public praise, private criticism is the right approach. But maybe this was the message that was needed to actually make CCC take some action.

James has been with the Collins family for 30 years. He was on every Doug Collins NBA staff after Chris played for him. And he was bumped to a new role (but still on the bench?) to make room for Lowery. That’s a change, and perhaps one that wouldn’t have been made otherwise.

The idea that Chase and Boo are finally playing together…I do wonder if Mc has a bit more of their ears now, as an actual assistant. (Mc’s story: dude, Lindsey and I couldn’t get along, and we wrecked my senior year.) Does that resonate more now? Did Borovich get pushed to a lesser role at MSU? (“Hey Jon, thanks for your service. We’re letting you go in xxx weeks, but we’ll give you time to find something else.”)

I would argue that the public statement had little risk. Most fans that care wanted him gone, and Gragg couldn’t do it. A dip in recruiting — the recruits without the statement were an under the radar big guy and a Hail Mary Elon decommit. While both look like they belong, they weren’t mega-stars anyway.

And frankly, what we’ve realized is that no-star Boo and no-star Audige are the most important players this program has had since Mc and Law and Pardon.

Maybe no-stars Clayton and Barkley and Strauss are the profiles we should be attacking: guys who want a degree, guys who want to defend, and guys who want to be hoops lifers whether that’s scrapping in Europe and Asia and the G-League, or getting right into coaching.

Or maybe NU should try to build around the Bensons and Falzons and Kopps and Ivanauskases and Simmonses — look at those stars!


Also, for what it’s worth, I still think this is an NCAA or bust* season, and February is tougher than January, and there could be a ten-game losing streak lurking this season just like there was the last time NU hit the top 25. (I think…)

*if Boo and Chase commit to staying, I think I’d give him another last last last chance.

“He couldn’t get the approval to deservedly fire CCC last year”. Maybe the minority were right - he didn’t/doesn’t deserve to be fired. He just needed to make some changes, like any coach at some point.

Clayton and Barkley are 3-star, not zero.

“10-game losing streak” for this team? No way, Jose!

“if Boo and Chase commit to staying, I think I’d give him another last last last chance” - he doesn’t need any more chances; this year was all we needed to prove to the doubters that Collins is a solid coach.

 

[wildcatpn]

“He couldn’t get the approval to deservedly fire CCC last year”. Maybe the minority were right - he didn’t/doesn’t deserve to be fired. He just needed to make some changes, like any coach at some point.

Clayton and Barkley are 3-star, not zero.

“10-game losing streak” for this team? No way, Jose!

“if Boo and Chase commit to staying, I think I’d give him another last last last chance” - he doesn’t need any more chances; this year was all we needed to prove to the doubters that Collins is a solid coach.

Collins deserves all the credit in the world for what this team has done this season and for finally giving the team an identity.

He also deserves all of the criticism in the world for it taking this long. Desperate times call for desperate measures and it looks like that’s what it took for him to finally realize how his team has to play to have success and he made some really good coaching hires. That’s what a good coach does.

Doesn’t make all the criticism he’s taken the last several years any less legit. He could’ve done this several years ago and didn’t. I personally think he should be retained because he’s now shown that he has a formula for being competitive. Saying this year is all we needed to prove Collins is a solid coach doesn’t mean he’s always been a solid coach. I think it’s more appropriate to say he’s a slow learner.

 

[NUCat320]

“He couldn’t get the approval to deservedly fire CCC last year”. Maybe the minority were right - he didn’t/doesn’t deserve to be fired. He just needed to make some changes, like any coach at some point.

Clayton and Barkley are 3-star, not zero.

“10-game losing streak” for this team? No way, Jose!

“if Boo and Chase commit to staying, I think I’d give him another last last last chance” - he doesn’t need any more chances; this year was all we needed to prove to the doubters that Collins is a solid coach.

Hopefully he’s learned a lot from this year and from the previous five.

Hopefully he doesn’t waste three years chasing PBJ and Max Christie and any bright shiny star-laden objects.

Hopefully, if he ever decides to recruit a post player again, he lets that guy play before he’s a junior.

Hopefully he doesn’t rely on a Swiss Army knife to be an alpha when he’s got two actual alphas on his roster.

He’s not been a solid coach all along. Hopefully he’s learned from this season and from Lowery and will continue to preach defense first, second, and third.

No disrespect to the incoming recruits. They have zero P5 offers, and that might just be fine. Give me Martinelli over Kopp every time.

 

[phatcat]

Praise in public; admonish in private. Management 101.

I would have preferred "fire in public" but I am content with "light a fire under his ass in public".

Politics ain't beanbag. Collins deserved the public butt-kicking just as he deserves the public praise now.

Arguably, not saying something in public leads one (including recruits and their families) to believe that nothing is happening to turn the ship. Who would join that?

I'm impressed with Dr Gragg. He showed up with 2 piles of dog crap on his desk and is working to get them cleaned up.

 

[SDakaGordie]

Collins deserves all the credit in the world for what this team has done this season and for finally giving the team an identity.

He also deserves all of the criticism in the world for it taking this long. Desperate times call for desperate measures and it looks like that’s what it took for him to finally realize how his team has to play to have success and he made some really good coaching hires. That’s what a good coach does.

Doesn’t make all the criticism he’s taken the last several years any less legit. He could’ve done this several years ago and didn’t. I personally think he should be retained because he’s now shown that he has a formula for being competitive. Saying this year is all we needed to prove Collins is a solid coach doesn’t mean he’s always been a solid coach. I think it’s more appropriate to say he’s a slow learner.

He showed he had a formula for being competitive the first time. His teams constantly improved up to the tourney team. They had an identity of defense then, even if that was not BMac’s strength. He was far from perfect, and we are far from a a level playing field with other programs, so he has had to learn some things and adapt, and we just needed some patience and faith in him.

 

[Zootcat]

I would have preferred "fire in public" but I am content with "light a fire under his ass in public".

Politics ain't beanbag. Collins deserved the public butt-kicking just as he deserves the public praise now.

Arguably, not saying something in public leads one (including recruits and their families) to believe that nothing is happening to turn the ship. Who would join that?

I'm impressed with Dr Gragg. He showed up with 2 piles of dog crap on his desk and is working to get them cleaned up.

I know you agree with Gragg’s between-season public comments about Collins. What else has Gragg done or said that impressed you? I can’t come up with anything.

I hope he’s a good AD for us, but I haven’t seen sufficient evidence of it so far.

 

[AdamOnFirst]

No need to do so now, IMO, especially with the real guy check stretch coming up the next few weeks. In 3-7 weeks, there will be ample evidence on what to do.

 

[JournCat]

Give me Martinelli over Kopp every time.

I can’t wait for two full student sections to give him hell in a few weeks …

 

[SDakaGordie]

Collins deserves all the credit in the world for what this team has done this season and for finally giving the team an identity.

He also deserves all of the criticism in the world for it taking this long. Desperate times call for desperate measures and it looks like that’s what it took for him to finally realize how his team has to play to have success and he made some really good coaching hires. That’s what a good coach does.

Doesn’t make all the criticism he’s taken the last several years any less legit. He could’ve done this several years ago and didn’t. I personally think he should be retained because he’s now shown that he has a formula for being competitive. Saying this year is all we needed to prove Collins is a solid coach doesn’t mean he’s always been a solid coach. I think it’s more appropriate to say he’s a slow learner.

Criticizing him for some technical flaws is one thing; calling for his firing is an entirely different thing.

 

[zeek55]

No need to do so now, IMO, especially with the real guy check stretch coming up the next few weeks. In 3-7 weeks, there will be ample evidence on what to do.

Correct approach as Collins' contract already goes through 2025.

NCAA tournment bid required for early extension.

NIT bid will grant another year but no extension this year.

Miss both and he's gone.

Pretty simple for me with the above set of choices. Way too early to say anything is decided.

A lot of basketball left this year and the pressure ramps up considerably the rest of the way.

 

[hdhntr1]

He did the right thing.

Talking to him about expectations in private is reasonable but actively trying to gut him in public was not.

 

[hdhntr1]

Correct approach as Collins' contract already goes through 2025.

NCAA tournment bid required for early extension.

NIT bid will grant another year but no extension this year.

Miss both and he's gone.

Pretty simple for me with the above set of choices. Way too early to say anything is decided.

A lot of basketball left this year and the pressure ramps up considerably the rest of the way.

Likely would have been possible for an NIT bid last year if they had not had DePaul game cancelled. THat had them below 500 for the season. With a win there they would have been 16-16 and good possibility of selection as they were the best of rest in BIG. As it was there was no BIG team in NIT

 

[zeek55]

Likely would have been possible for an NIT bid last year if they had not had DePaul game cancelled. THat had them below 500 for the season. With a win there they would have been 16-16 and good possibility of selection as they were the best of rest in BIG

Fair point, but I think an NIT bid just provides an extra year at this point.

I want to be clear that I hope Collins coaches this team to a 4-6 year extension, but I don't see how he gets that without an NCAA bid in hand.

 

[NUCat320]

Fair point, but I think an NIT bid just provides an extra year at this point.

I want to be clear that I hope Collins coaches this team to a 4-6 year extension, but I don't see how he gets that without an NCAA bid in hand.

It would be hilarious if he got an extension after his first +.500 conference (full) month since the tournament.

 

[ThatkidfromHolland]

If he’s the only coach to bring NU to the tournament and does that not once but twice he deserves a very large extension. Especially after the AD hung him out to dry and drastically restricted momentum.

 

[hdhntr1]

Correct approach as Collins' contract already goes through 2025.

NCAA tournment bid required for early extension.

NIT bid will grant another year but no extension this year.

Miss both and he's gone.

Pretty simple for me with the above set of choices. Way too early to say anything is decided.

A lot of basketball left this year and the pressure ramps up considerably the rest of the way.

And I would say that the performance to date should warrant the removal of the threat for this year, NIT should buy two and NCAA should buy extension, A second NIT after next year would warrant an extension. Not a 5 or more year one but maybe 2 years getting him to 3 remaining. Dance and have to get him to total remaining of 5 or more. Have to remember that in last 54 or more years, NU has had exactly one winning BIG season and a couple of 0.500 seasons and the biggest handicaps are still there. (admissions and strength of BIG and NU history) What has been removed is facilities and some of the history.

So much depends on health, depth, selection committee feelings and other things outside of the coaches control and with the other obstacles that NU has to face more leeway is warranted, While the program has not been successful at putting a team in the dance in the last couple years, we have also not put an embarrassing product on the floor. And this year it is definitely an entertaining product. I have been to the last several games and for the first time in a long time, student enthusiasm and impact is real. Have not really seen much of that at NU

 

[hdhntr1]

Fair point, but I think an NIT bid just provides an extra year at this point.

I want to be clear that I hope Collins coaches this team to a 4-6 year extension, but I don't see how he gets that without an NCAA bid in hand.

Sorry but what Gragg did was unconscionable. It would take more than buying a year with the immediate threat still remaining to undo the damage he did

 

[AdamOnFirst]

Criticizing him for some technical flaws is one thing; calling for his firing is an entirely different thing.

This is big time sports, with guys putting on their big big pants and making HUGE dollars. Calling for firings for the good of the program is totally in bounds, expected, and 100% part of the deal. It’s not personal, it’s business.

 

[hdhntr1]

He showed he had a formula for being competitive the first time. His teams constantly improved up to the tourney team. They had an identity of defense then, even if that was not BMac’s strength. He was far from perfect, and we are far from a a level playing field with other programs, so he has had to learn some things and adapt, and we just needed some patience and faith in him.

He tried to go the way of going after high end talent but unfortunately a bunch of that higher end talent did not really buy into the overall scheme, They have moved on and Collins seems to have learned from his mistakes, The guys here now have bought in, worked their butts off and their efforts show. The current product is one that that we can all be proud of. Lots of ways to measure success and to me, what we are seeing is a version of success whether we make it to the dance or not.

I remember during the tourney run and leading up to it how the players were, I remember their parents as well. I am seeing it again

 

[hdhntr1]

This is big time sports, with guys putting on their big big pants and making HUGE dollars. Calling for firings for the good of the program is totally in bounds, expected, and 100% part of the deal. It’s not personal, it’s business.

We are talking about the way Gragg went about it and he was wrong

 

[wildcatpn]

Criticizing him for some technical flaws is one thing; calling for his firing is an entirely different thing.

Calling for his firing after how bad his teams have been since the tourney year is absolutely justified. In fact, he’s lucky he coaches at NU because at 99% of other P6 programs he would’ve been gone and never had the chance to even get to this season.

The fact that it took him 6 seasons to figure out an identity is certainly a huge flaw and hopefully he’s finally learned.

Of course it helps to have veteran players but he had that last year and failed.

 

[hoosboot]

If he’s the only coach to bring NU to the tournament and does that not once but twice he deserves a very large extension. Especially after the AD hung him out to dry and drastically restricted momentum.

Collins has done a terrific job with this year's squad, but exactly what momentum are you talking about that Gragg restricted?

 

[AdamOnFirst]

We are talking about the way Gragg went about it and he was wrong

I’m not so sure about that, but it’s a minor point. Everybody with eyes could understand he was on the hot seat. I don’t see it as different than Frost or Harbaugh having their pay cut, a clear public sign that results are demanded ASAP, or other similar things. I guess we’ll see if and when Gragg has to try to get him an extension. At any rate, it’s a minor point.

 

[IGNORE2]

If he’s the only coach to bring NU to the tournament and does that not once but twice he deserves a very large extension. Especially after the AD hung him out to dry and drastically restricted momentum.

Disagree. And apparently not the only one. I have higher expectations than pre BC. I expect regular NIT bids and to dance at least every few years, maybe as frequently as the terrible seasons. Not one pretty good season every ten years or so surrounded by unwatchable seasons.

#raisethebar

 

[GatoLouco]

Gragg could (and should) have had that conversation behind close doors. Those who need to know he was on the hot seat would know anyway as a result of it. Recruits would not.

There’s other ways Gragg could have signaled to the fans he’s not sipping cocktails in Aruba.

 

[IGNORE2]

We are talking about the way Gragg went about it and he was wrong

Matter of opinion. I join those that don’t have a problem with it. I wish he did the same to the golden child after this last season.

My guess - you will see the difference. PF garnered closed door reprimands and let’s see how football does next season.

 

[NUCat320]

Gragg could (and should) have had that conversation behind close doors. Those who need to know he was on the hot seat would know anyway as a result of it. Recruits would not.

There’s other ways Gragg could have signaled to the fans he’s not sipping cocktails in Aruba.

Any recruit paying attention would have assumed his leash was short. Gragg’s comments were to keep @phatcat satisfied.

 

[zeek55]

Sorry but what Gragg did was unconscionable. It would take more than buying a year with the immediate threat still remaining to undo the damage he did

I strongly disagree with this statement.

AD Gragg came into a tough situation here given the on-field results at our two flagship programs the past few years.

And he's shown 2 different ways of dealing with them (publicly+privately with Collins and privately with Fitz).

The public statement was absolutely needed given the fanbase attitude towards Collins. A substantial portion of our hoops fanbase would have been fine with Collins getting fired last year. Fitz was nowhere close to that spot. Different situations call for different measures.

I completely disagree with any notion that the AD only works in the background.

We had 5 losing seasons in basketball prior to this. Yes we got a bunch of extra non-conference wins last year but 7-13 in the Big Ten is not that different from 6-13 the year before.

Collins needed a complete reboot and to date it's delivered. Finish the season strong and he'll have earned an extension.

 

[SDakaGordie]

This is big time sports, with guys putting on their big big pants and making HUGE dollars. Calling for firings for the good of the program is totally in bounds, expected, and 100% part of the deal. It’s not personal, it’s business.

But it would be better business if the decision were accurate.

 

[Zootcat]

I’m not so sure about that, but it’s a minor point. Everybody with eyes could understand he was on the hot seat. I don’t see it as different than Frost or Harbaugh having their pay cut, a clear public sign that results are demanded ASAP, or other similar things. I guess we’ll see if and when Gragg has to try to get him an extension. At any rate, it’s a minor point.

It’s not a minor point.

 

[AdamOnFirst]

I strongly disagree with this statement.

AD Gragg came into a tough situation here given the on-field results at our two flagship programs the past few years.

And he's shown 2 different ways of dealing with them (publicly+privately with Collins and privately with Fitz).

The public statement was absolutely needed given the fanbase attitude towards Collins. A substantial portion of our hoops fanbase would have been fine with Collins getting fired last year. Fitz was nowhere close to that spot. Different situations call for different measures.

I completely disagree with any notion that the AD only works in the background.

We had 5 losing seasons in basketball prior to this. Yes we got a bunch of extra non-conference wins last year but 7-13 in the Big Ten is not that different from 6-13 the year before.

Collins needed a complete reboot and to date it's delivered. Finish the season strong and he'll have earned an extension.

Especially considering 1. ADs at most other programs are constantly having to operate publicly and 2. Gragg’s pressure on Collins forced Collins hand to make changes to the program (and brought him the resources to do so) including significant coaching changes, that were instrumental in the remarkable turnaround this year.

This is sports. You’re getting paid eight figures to coach 20 year olds to win ball games against other 20 year olds. Not taking away at all from the many years of incredibly long hours it takes to achieve this level, but you’re incredibly fortunate if you find yourself in this position and you’re inherently always singing for your supper until the day you retire.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

As long as people are consistent in allocating credit or blame for the team's success or failure... then you can be pro-Collins or anti-Collins, as long as you have reasons.

Just don't always blame the players when we lose and credit the coach when we win.
And the flipside of course - don't only blame the coach when we lose and credit the players when we win.

Its my opinion that when something changes within the program and results go from pretty bad to pretty good, then the things that changed are the likely reason for the improvement.

 

[hdhntr1]

I’m not so sure about that, but it’s a minor point. Everybody with eyes could understand he was on the hot seat. I don’t see it as different than Frost or Harbaugh having their pay cut, a clear public sign that results are demanded ASAP, or other similar things. I guess we’ll see if and when Gragg has to try to get him an extension. At any rate, it’s a minor point.

Sorry but there was nothing really to gain and potentially a lot to lose doing it the way Gragg did it, , Very hard to keep trying to recruit this year under those circumstances so at bare minimum it is a lost year. You have no idea whether the coaching staff was changed because of anything Gragg said or did. You also potentially make it a lot more difficult to keep players that might have other options. And finally, if CCC is successful, he would likely have plenty of other opportunities. Why would he not basically decide to tell Gragg to pound sand and go somewhere else? Get a fresh start, probably with a longer term contract than Gragg would offer and with out constant threat in any off year. Plus could be issues then retaining guys here that bought in to CCC and potentially difficult to bring in someone new knowing how Gragg operates and knowing how difficult it is to recruit here and how bare the cupboard could be.

So overall nothing really to gain and, potentially a whole lot to lose.

 

[zeek55]

Sorry but there was nothing really to gain and potentially a lot to lose doing it the way Gragg did it, , Very hard to keep trying to recruit this year under those circumstances so at bare minimum it is a lost year. You have no idea whether the coaching staff was changed because of anything Gragg said or did. You also potentially make it a lot more difficult to keep players that might have other options. And finally, if CCC is successful, he would likely have plenty of other opportunities. Why would he not basically decide to tell Gragg to pound sand and go somewhere else? Get a fresh start, probably with a longer term contract than Gragg would offer and with out constant threat in any off year. Plus could be issues then retaining guys here that bought in to CCC and potentially difficult to bring in someone new knowing how Gragg operates and knowing how difficult it is to recruit here and how bare the cupboard could be.

So overall nothing really to gain and, potentially a whole lot to lose.

Gragg's the AD, his constituency is the university leadership, students, alums, fanbase. He had to say something publicly about Collins being retained another year and not being let go. The expectation on these boards was that he would probably be fired after the 2021-22 season.

I think his phrasing was fine. Does it affect recruiting? Possibly, though I'd have to imagine everyone knew he was on the hot seat anyway after the last 5 years. He's been on plenty of those lists. Most MBB commentators have been saying it's "tournament or bust" for him. This is common knowledge.

This was Gragg's actual statement:
“Coach Collins and I met today to discuss the high expectations we have for our men’s basketball program, and the path forward for it. At the conclusion of a challenging seasons, I share in the disappointment felt by our staff and avid fans.

“As our Wildcats enter the offseason, we are committed to evaluating all aspects of the program on and off the court to ensure we are supporting this team with the foundation necessary to compete and win in the nation’s best college basketball conference. I have tasked Coach Collins with making necessary changes to build towards success in the 2022-23 campaign.”

I'm really struggling to find a problem with making this statement given the public expectations of change at our MBB program. I think he had to make that statement to tell his constituency that we have high expectations and Collins knows it and is making changes to achieve them.

After that statement, I was okay with Collins being retained. It would have been a different thing entirely to just roll this season out without telling the fanbase that our expectations are much higher than the past 5 years. Just my opinion obviously.

I think the football and basketball situations are different and that's why the treatment of Fitz and Collins is different.

 

[AdamOnFirst]

Sorry but there was nothing really to gain and potentially a lot to lose doing it the way Gragg did it, , Very hard to keep trying to recruit this year under those circumstances so at bare minimum it is a lost year. You have no idea whether the coaching staff was changed because of anything Gragg said or did. You also potentially make it a lot more difficult to keep players that might have other options. And finally, if CCC is successful, he would likely have plenty of other opportunities. Why would he not basically decide to tell Gragg to pound sand and go somewhere else? Get a fresh start, probably with a longer term contract than Gragg would offer and with out constant threat in any off year. Plus could be issues then retaining guys here that bought in to CCC and potentially difficult to bring in someone new knowing how Gragg operates and knowing how difficult it is to recruit here and how bare the cupboard could be.

So overall nothing really to gain and, potentially a whole lot to lose.

Lolz, the idea in here that he could go literally anywhere else in the Power 5 and have LESS pressure to perform from year to year than at NU is pretty funny.

 

[IGNORE2]

I will say it feels good to have a good team and an ad that seemingly fend the same as I do about the future of coach for once. As I read this thread, the next months will be very interesting. Finally.

 

[Hungry Jack]

So….is Collins a good coach? I don’t know the game well enough to pass judgment.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

So….is Collins a good coach? I don’t know the game well enough to pass judgment.

Well, when you go to your son's middle school games are you yelling at your son, the refs or the coach?

I just realized that when I go to Welsh Ryan, I yell at the refs over "bad calls," the opposing players over misbehavior and Collins over the lineup and strategy. Never NU players, unless its something positive...

Weird.

 

[GatoLouco]

Well, when you go to your son's middle school games are you yelling at your son, the refs or the coach?

Video of consequences of Hungry's actions at little Hungry's games:

 

[Booty Maximus]

Agree you should lock him up! Very impressive job given what was lost from last year's team.

And with Scheyer struggling @ Duke....I'm sure they'll give him another year or two but after that? Might start looking for another branch of the Koach K Koaching tree. And a Khris Kollins might be a guy they look at.