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graduating and leaving vs. graduating and staying vs. leaving and not graduating

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haywood jahblowme

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Aug 5, 2010
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the board is up in arms today with the timing of these announcements - and while it is a depleted roster and this point the short term memory astounds

i have read for years the following:

ash - not a big ten level ball handler and poor shooter. while a strong defender, the team was at a disadvantage offensively with him on the court. when brought up this year about being the back up ball handler this notion was vehemently struck down. avg. 2 ppg

falzon - a shooter who doesn't shoot well. can't move laterally or defend. can't handle the ball well. is a one trick pony without the trick. broken down body that failed him. avg 5 ppg

benson - apparently a great team/fan guy. not quick, foul prone, missed a lot of layup, should dunk more for his height, big hair. avg 2 ppg

there is no logical reason to think this would be greatly improved if these guys started playing 25 mpg (which i believe they want) there is no logical reason to think NU would be good with these playing 25 mpg

graduating and staying - are things going great? are guys major contributors? is the fanfare and environment unbelievable (like MSU, UM, IU, PU?)

graduating and leaving - are guys pursing a chance to play in a new place with a potential for more fun?

leaving and not graduating - doesn't apply here

while the timing stinks. there is a clear understanding that the team will be young an rebuilding regardless of transfers. the main selling point is minutes. this means future players. this means high minutes for the young guys (much like bmac, law, lindsey) does the staff play 2-5 ppg guys high minutes? or give major minutes to the future and the dreaded word potential?

all players on this list were part of the historic tourney team. all these guys have not been successful since. two bad years (which they are were upperclassmen team members!). all 3 guys seemingly stayed out of trouble and were good program guys. all these guys have graduated with a northwestern degree.

does it really surprise people that they want to go PLAY? people really are upset and can't understand this? we are NU fans! 3 years losing in a row certainly isn't fun - i wish these kids nothing but the best
 
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haywood jahblowme said:
the board is up in arms today with the timing of these announcements - and while it is a depleted roster and this point the short term memory astounds

i have read for years the following:

ash - not a big ten level ball handler and poor shooter. while a strong defender, the team was at a disadvantage offensively with him on the court. when brought up this year about being the back up ball handler this notion was vehemently struck down. avg. 2 ppg

falzon - a shooter who doesn't shoot well. can't move laterally or defend. can't handle the ball well. is a one trick pony without the trick. broken down body that failed him. avg 5 ppg

benson - apparently a great team/fan guy. not quick, foul prone, missed a lot of layup, should dunk more for his height, big hair. avg 2 ppg

there is no logical reason to think this would be greatly improved if these guys started playing 25 mpg (which i believe they want) there is no logical reason to think NU would be good with these playing 25 mpg

graduating and staying - are things going great? are guys major contributors? is the fanfare and environment unbelievable (like MSU, UM, IU, PU?)

graduating and leaving - are guys pursing a chance to play in a new place with a potential for more fun?

leaving and not graduating - doesn't apply here

while the timing stinks. there is a clear understanding that the team will be young an rebuilding regardless of transfers. the main selling point is minutes. this means future players. this means high minutes for the young guys (much like bmac, law, lindsey) does the staff play 2-5 ppg guys high minutes? or give major minutes to the future and the dreaded word potential?

all players on this list were part of the historic tourney team. all these guys have not been successful since. two bad years (which they are were upperclassmen team members!). all 3 guys seemingly stayed out of trouble and were good program guys. all these guys have graduated with a northwestern degree.

does it really surprise people that they want to go PLAY? people really are upset and can't understand this? we are NU fans! 3 years losing in a row certainly isn't fun - i wish these kids nothing but the best
Click to expand...

Not really. Just hope Collins has a plan.
 
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Couple simple points:
  • Benson was projected starter
  • Injuries will happen. Fact of life. Suspensions, admission denials, mid season transfers do happen. Then guys also foul out or worse get booted. What happens when the nine guys you bring aren’t enough.
  • Many transfer candidates are off the board.
  • Roster management has become a thing. Making the kinda of money CCC makes, he should have contingencies
You are right. None of these three guys are stopping the cats from dancing. But they, plus RI, maybe Brown, are pushing the cats down further with these departures.

And the NIT reached deep this year. And we never fill all the schollie So these guys aren’t blocking the recruitment of a player like Vassar did.

These events, following two crappier years than expected, are very alarming. CCC was supposed to be the savior. Post dance, not feeling very saved around here.
 
IGNORE said:
Couple simple points:
  • Benson was projected starter
  • Injuries will happen. Fact of life. Suspensions, admission denials, mid season transfers do happen. Then guys also foul out or worse get booted. What happens when the nine guys you bring aren’t enough.
  • Many transfer candidates are off the board.
  • Roster management has become a thing. Making the kinda of money CCC makes, he should have contingencies
You are right. None of these three guys are stopping the cats from dancing. But they, plus RI, maybe Brown, are pushing the cats down further with these departures.

And the NIT reached deep this year. And we never fill all the schollie So these guys aren’t blocking the recruitment of a player like Vassar did.

These events, following two crappier years than expected, are very alarming. CCC was supposed to be the savior. Post dance, not feeling very saved around here.
Click to expand...


yes - because no one would be talking about how bad the NU roster is if it looked like this: (this is a no win for collins - if he keeps guys gets crushed for not having good enough guys, if they leave because they don't like their role or spot on the depth chart he gets crushed, and if they graduate and leave he gets crushed.)

G - ash, brown, greer, malnati
F - falzon, gaines, kopp, nance
C - benson, rap, young (nance)

. NU had young guys playing 30 min a game. the "take a flyer on developmental guys" didn't work out. 2 guys got crushed with injuries, a 3rd was severely hampered his senior year.

its not an excuse. its the reality.

this year that cycle starts over - with 4 sophomore and 3 freshmen playing high minutes assisted by some transfers. moving forward can't have "developmental guys" - for the first time in its entire history NU has made the tourney and will have big ten facilities. admissions will still be tough but job of selling is a lot different.

many big ten schools and power 5s with zero recruiting restrictions, strong fan support and tradition, post season and NBA presence - fire coaches and struggle to maintain a high level of play and recruiting. and you expect it to be immediately changed at NU after making 1 tourney?
 
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Re Benson...and this in no way is a criticism of the young man I admire...Haywood indicated weeks ago that Barrett did not have the starting role locked up....that Ryan Young and the Georgia kid would compete. And that it might be Nance.

I've got $100 says Barrett plays on the West Coast next year....for him it's about the life experience....and fun. St. Mary's...USF....Pepperdine....something like that.

Now, it is concerning that he and Ash are choosing to leave, rather than help NU with the transition. But let's wait until the story comes out, which it will in a handful of days/weeks.
 
haywood jahblowme said:
yes - because no one would be talking about how bad the NU roster is if it looked like this: (this is a no win for collins - if he keeps guys gets crushed for not having good enough guys, if they leave because they don't like their role or spot on the depth chart he gets crushed, and if they graduate and leave he gets crushed.)

G - ash, brown, greer, malnati
F - falzon, gaines, kopp, nance
C - benson, rap, young (nance)

. NU had young guys playing 30 min a game. the "take a flyer on developmental guys" didn't work out. 2 guys got crushed with injuries, a 3rd was severely hampered his senior year.

its not an excuse. its the reality.

this year that cycle starts over - with 4 sophomore and 3 freshmen playing high minutes assisted by some transfers. moving forward can't have "developmental guys" - for the first time in its entire history NU has made the tourney and will have big ten facilities. admissions will still be tough but job of selling is a lot different.

many big ten schools and power 5s with zero recruiting restrictions, strong fan support and tradition, post season and NBA presence - fire coaches and struggle to maintain a high level of play and recruiting. and you expect it to be immediately changed at NU after making 1 tourney?
Click to expand...

You can’t just ignore the events. If CCC had full rosters w crappy players, then your argument works. He doesn’t. RI, Brown, Falzon, Ash, Benson could have stayed without impacting schollie availability.

And Benson was not a planned departure. He was a planned starter.

And you still fail to address: when the injuries happen and then guys foul out or if someone gets suspended or announces a transfer - who subs in? You? There are nine remaining guys on scholarship. 200 minutes to fill. Four guys never played a minute of college ball. Two sophomores did not look like 20+ minute guys at the end of this year. A coach that keeps freshmen on short leashes. And Nance at the five? He can’t play the three or four yet.

Cuz the excuse of you couldn’t see it coming is bullshit. It’s 8 months out and I can see it coming. And I’m not getting paid millions of dollars to prepare for it.
 
Original post is spot on. Players who earn a degree and are neither key contributors nor part of the future want to get a graduate degree on a scholarship while playing basketball? I say good for them.

The team is not going to be projected to be great next year. Let’s start the rebuild with players who are going to be here for a while.
 
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IGNORE said:
Couple simple points:
  • Benson was projected starter
  • Injuries will happen. Fact of life. Suspensions, admission denials, mid season transfers do happen. Then guys also foul out or worse get booted. What happens when the nine guys you bring aren’t enough.
  • Many transfer candidates are off the board.
  • Roster management has become a thing. Making the kinda of money CCC makes, he should have contingencies
You are right. None of these three guys are stopping the cats from dancing. But they, plus RI, maybe Brown, are pushing the cats down further with these departures.

And the NIT reached deep this year. And we never fill all the schollie So these guys aren’t blocking the recruitment of a player like Vassar did.

These events, following two crappier years than expected, are very alarming. CCC was supposed to be the savior. Post dance, not feeling very saved around here.
Click to expand...
If it weren't for the greatest season in our entire program history by
IGNORE said:
You can’t just ignore the events. If CCC had full rosters w crappy players, then your argument works. He doesn’t. RI, Brown, Falzon, Ash, Benson could have stayed without impacting schollie availability.

And Benson was not a planned departure. He was a planned starter.

And you still fail to address: when the injuries happen and then guys foul out or if someone gets suspended or announces a transfer - who subs in? You? There are nine remaining guys on scholarship. 200 minutes to fill. Four guys never played a minute of college ball. Two sophomores did not look like 20+ minute guys at the end of this year. A coach that keeps freshmen on short leashes. And Nance at the five? He can’t play the three or four yet.

Cuz the excuse of you couldn’t see it coming is bullshit. It’s 8 months out and I can see it coming. And I’m not getting paid millions of dollars to prepare for it.
Click to expand...
How in the world did you know CC's plan for Benson next year? Do you have access to CC's brain? We had a guy who redshirted an entire year, do you think he did so to just say "hey BB, I know you're the anointed starter, so I'll just grab sone pine over here..."
 
Styre said:
The best case scenario here is that everything is fine with the program but that Collins managed to bring in exactly two players capable of playing in the Big Ten over three recruiting cycles. That does not inspire confidence.
Click to expand...

Hopefully CC has learned and adjusted which would seem to the the case based on the last 2 recruiting classes. The next two classes may determine his future at NU. Good ones and we would seem to be a program on the rise, bad ones and he would seem to be in over his head.
 
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haywood jahblowme said:
NU can not admit juco players i believe
Click to expand...
They have done so in football on numerous occasions over the years. Also not all JC guys are there because of grades, as some just need to work on their game or bulk up a bit. Don't you think that saying that they cannot admit juco's is a bit elitist and a problem for the program?
 
willycat said:
They have done so in football on numerous occasions over the years. Also not all JC guys are there because of grades, as some just need to work on their game or bulk up a bit. Don't you think that saying that they cannot admit juco's is a bit elitist and a problem for the program?
Click to expand...

And so has men's basketball, just not very recently. Dan Kreft and Brian Chamberlin were juco transfers.
 
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willycat said:
They have done so in football on numerous occasions over the years. Also not all JC guys are there because of grades, as some just need to work on their game or bulk up a bit. Don't you think that saying that they cannot admit juco's is a bit elitist and a problem for the program?
Click to expand...
I'm not sure this is accurate. I remember Tim Hughes and maybe a couple of others from the 80s and 90s, but who have we gotten as a juco in the last 20 years? NU has certain standards. They want to give scholarships to those who've earned it on the field and in the classroom. If you want to tar any sort of standards (athletic, academic or otherwise) as "elitist", then have at it, but everything's elitist one way or another.
 
IGNORE said:
And Benson was not a planned departure. He was a planned starter.
Click to expand...
Why do you keep saying this? If he was the starter next year, then we were in big trouble already. I agree that losing him may hurt a little because we lose the depth, but BB was not a starter, nor would he be next year I don't think.
 
willycat said:
They have done so in football on numerous occasions over the years. Also not all JC guys are there because of grades, as some just need to work on their game or bulk up a bit. Don't you think that saying that they cannot admit juco's is a bit elitist and a problem for the program?
Click to expand...

Can you please name a JUCO player that Fitz has brought on since he was a head coach? I can’t recall a single one, particularly not in the last 5-7 years.
 
TheC said:
Why do you keep saying this? If he was the starter next year, then we were in big trouble already. I agree that losing him may hurt a little because we lose the depth, but BB was not a starter, nor would he be next year I don't think.
Click to expand...

Well, Lou V has said, Teddy G has said it. I guess we are all idiots. That's cool - I like the company.
 
freewillie07 said:
Can you please name a JUCO player that Fitz has brought on since he was a head coach? I can’t recall a single one, particularly not in the last 5-7 years.
Click to expand...
I don't remember any but I was referencing the likes of Hughes and a few others. Just saying that NU has recruited and accepted Juco guys. Was Steve tasker also one?
 
gocatsgo2003 said:
Not really. Just hope Collins has a plan.
Click to expand...
Simply stated but well said. I don't think we are upset really. Just concerned that this string of transfers could mean that the internal vibe in the program isn't great right now. It doesn't mean that for sure, but it's not a great indicator. And yes, we are hoping there is a plan to find some more depth for next year.
 
ricko654321 said:
Simply stated but well said. I don't think we are upset really. Just concerned that this string of transfers could mean that the internal vibe in the program isn't great right now. It doesn't mean that for sure, but it's not a great indicator. And yes, we are hoping there is a plan to find some more depth for next year.
Click to expand...
I don't doubt he has a plan.

It's the execution that worries me......
 
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willycat said:
They have done so in football on numerous occasions over the years. Also not all JC guys are there because of grades, as some just need to work on their game or bulk up a bit. Don't you think that saying that they cannot admit juco's is a bit elitist and a problem for the program?
Click to expand...

Ok genius who was the latest JC player in football?
 
willycat said:
I don't remember any but I was referencing the likes of Hughes and a few others. Just saying that NU has recruited and accepted Juco guys. Was Steve tasker also one?
Click to expand...

Oh yeah 1980s and 1990s are so relevant! Collins is doing fine. It’s a little bit worrisome about guys leaving but none of them was any good.
 
Pukecat said:
Ok genius who was the latest JC player in football?
Click to expand...
I was just stating that NU HAS recruited and accepted JC guys before . Why does it even matter when the last one was and we are talking basketball recruits in the post, in case you haven't noticed. No try and come up with a intelligent response, "GENIUS"!
 
willycat said:
They have done so in football on numerous occasions over the years. Also not all JC guys are there because of grades, as some just need to work on their game or bulk up a bit. Don't you think that saying that they cannot admit juco's is a bit elitist and a problem for the program?
Click to expand...

No
 
IGNORE said:
Well, Lou V has said, Teddy G has said it. I guess we are all idiots. That's cool - I like the company.
Click to expand...
First, I didn't call you an idiot. I was just questioning why you thought he would be a starter. I hadn't seen those guys talk about that. I still think you'd all be wrong, but I guess its a moot argument now.
 
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