Audige will be a Soph next season. He played his true Freshman year at W&M.
No Acceptable Reason we are in this position
- Thread starter olshin
- Start date
Do you remember that BCs worst year was year 8? 8-22. By then he should have "owned the roster" Face it. At schools like NU there is a natural void at about year 7-8 is a period that tends to have a void. Know when PF worst year was (prior to this year) Year 8. in and lot of excitement, building with new guys that get you someplace and then a lull as you are replacing them and the new guys have no experience or are at different stages of development. It happens. Question is what happens next. In the case of BC, his best years followed. Same with PF. Fact is that we will always be more of a developmental program that many of our opponents. How you do has to do with how many of the pieces reach developed state at around the same time and it is much more difficult here. Did CCC make some mistakes? Probably. Hopefully he can learn from them and build from here.
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So - none of the optimists are concerned about more transfers, this time of "young talent"? Because, that's never happened before...
CCC loses one of the people you are counting on to lead the way, then what?
His last three teams look nothing like the three prior. WTF
CCC loses one of the people you are counting on to lead the way, then what?
His last three teams look nothing like the three prior. WTF
Which NU basketball coach has been able to do this?
understand that mindset. i think CCC does own. at least it seems he does.
if the argument is to understand that understand CCC makes millions. then you need to also accept the argument that he is playing with the chips stacked against him.
CCC and staff had Javon Freemen committed, and he almost certainly would have gotten a waiver, and he completed a year of college with solid grades - and admissions said no (he is 20th in the country scoring 21 points a game and playing 32 minutes.) thats not CCC and staff not getting it done, that having the chips stacked against you
just one of many examples of being hamstrung in that regard.
i think based on gaines class (possible all-big defender), the sophomores, boo and beran, and now berry, - plus finally completed facilities - that he is figuring that portion out at NU ... all while losing two assistants to head coaching jobs
again this is a circular argument but the argument has two sides
The hope should be that he figures out how to consistently recruit so we don’t see a couple good years followed by Death Valley. I think it’s headed in the right direction, but the margin for error at NU especially with the Big 10 typically being strong is thin.
Why are we here? Pretty simple- look at the recruiting classes from 2015-17. For actual players in 2015 we added DP and falzon (due to injuries his career was limited). 2016 we got nothing 2017 we got Gaines (currently hurt). Getting 2-3 actual players in 3 recruiting classes creates a huge hole.
The good news is I think maybe CC has finely figured recruiting out at NU. The last 3 classes including 2020 we have brought in 9 players and other than Greer I think they are all solid Big 10 players. And I understand why we reached on Greer.
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Name one player who was counted on to “lead the way” who has transferred under Collins.
Could you provide some other examples of this? "Head coaches with 8+ year tenures at schools like Northwestern" strikes me as a very small sample size.
After 5 straight bowl games, yes.
haywood jahblowme said:
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Medill90 said:
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Not looking to relitigate the Vassar case.
The only recruit impacted by Vassar was Kipper Nichols, IIRC. I like Kipper who is in his fifth year of college ball at U of I. However, I don't know that Kipper's less than 4 pts and 2 rebounds a game in 15 minutes off the bench this year would have changed NU's fortunes. Nor last year's...nor the year prior.
It's been something like 3 years running....possibly 4...that NU hasn't used all its schollies.
A handful of near misses at the guard spot.
Yes, for a million a year the coach has to own it.[/quote]
understand that mindset. i think CCC does own. at least it seems he does.
if the argument is to understand that understand CCC makes millions. then you need to also accept the argument that he is playing with the chips stacked against him.
CCC and staff had Javon Freemen committed, and he almost certainly would have gotten a waiver, and he completed a year of college with solid grades - and admissions said no (he is 20th in the country scoring 21 points a game and playing 32 minutes.) thats not CCC and staff not getting it done, that having the chips stacked against you
just one of many examples of being hamstrung in that regard.
i think based on gaines class (possible all-big defender), the sophomores, boo and beran, and now berry, - plus finally completed facilities - that he is figuring that portion out at NU ... all while losing two assistants to head coaching jobs
again this is a circular argument but the argument has two sides
[/quote]
It does have two sides. And that’s why I accept the misses in recruitment. And having the occasional bad periods. We are NU, not Kansas. Overall I believe we are getting more talent than before.
But CC has a history of majorly blowing it the year after we made the tournament. And last season we were so much less than what we should have been. I know there are explanations in the world. But frankly All State, injuries, problems at point guard, etc, don’t justify missing the tournament in 17/18 or being as pitiful as we were last year. They sound a lot more like excuses. So it’s 21-22 for me. Balanced roster full of seniors. If he can’t do it then, 16/17 was a big fluke.
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Medill90 said:
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Not looking to relitigate the Vassar case.
The only recruit impacted by Vassar was Kipper Nichols, IIRC. I like Kipper who is in his fifth year of college ball at U of I. However, I don't know that Kipper's less than 4 pts and 2 rebounds a game in 15 minutes off the bench this year would have changed NU's fortunes. Nor last year's...nor the year prior.
It's been something like 3 years running....possibly 4...that NU hasn't used all its schollies.
A handful of near misses at the guard spot.
Yes, for a million a year the coach has to own it.[/quote]
understand that mindset. i think CCC does own. at least it seems he does.
if the argument is to understand that understand CCC makes millions. then you need to also accept the argument that he is playing with the chips stacked against him.
CCC and staff had Javon Freemen committed, and he almost certainly would have gotten a waiver, and he completed a year of college with solid grades - and admissions said no (he is 20th in the country scoring 21 points a game and playing 32 minutes.) thats not CCC and staff not getting it done, that having the chips stacked against you
just one of many examples of being hamstrung in that regard.
i think based on gaines class (possible all-big defender), the sophomores, boo and beran, and now berry, - plus finally completed facilities - that he is figuring that portion out at NU ... all while losing two assistants to head coaching jobs
again this is a circular argument but the argument has two sides
[/quote]
It does have two sides. And that’s why I accept the misses in recruitment. And having the occasional bad periods. We are NU, not Kansas. Overall I believe we are getting more talent than before.
But CC has a history of majorly blowing it the year after we made the tournament. And last season we were so much less than what we should have been. I know there are explanations in the world. But frankly All State, injuries, problems at point guard, etc, don’t justify missing the tournament in 17/18 or being as pitiful as we were last year. They sound a lot more like excuses. So it’s 21-22 for me. Balanced roster full of seniors. If he can’t do it then, 16/17 was a big fluke.
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Who has transferred that was a key part of the team? Buie is better than Ash. Young is better than Benson. Kopp and Beran are better than Falzone and Rap. Let’s not get wrapped up in the transfers. They all made perfect sense for the player. If we loss any of the young core to transfer then I will join in the outcry. I find this transfer of current player talk silly. Why are earth transfer right before you are about to get good unless you can’t crack the rotation?
Who has transferred that was a key part of the team? Buie is better than Ash. Young is better than Benson. Kopp and Beran are better than Falzone and Rap. Let’s not get wrapped up in the transfers. They all made perfect sense for the player. If we loss any of the young core to transfer then I will join in the outcry. I find this transfer of current player talk silly. Why are earth transfer right before you are about to get good unless you can’t crack the rotation?
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While I believe you are 100% correct about our transfers, they all transferred to get minutes (and they are playing significant time), that is not the only reason players transfer. Not wanting to be a part of a bad team is often the reason. So is having issues with the coach. And that’s where the concern regarding our current players comes in.
If you're going to run off players to whom you personally offered scholarships who turned out to be no good, you'd better demonstrate a little honor when you prove to be no good.
I hope that second paragraph is humor. Would you rather he recruit "marginal Big Ten players?" Whom do you think he's been recruiting most of the time? Some of you guys know that the resident recuiting ranking fluffer is gone, right? You can start to come terms with the fact that after all this time, the roster is composed mostly of players who aren't even recruited by three-quarters of the league. Have you noticed the destinations of the players who transfer, particularly in this age when transfers tend to transfer "up?" Speaks volumes.
How about simply doing the job he is being paid millions to do? Impossible, is that your response? Then stop wasting money on a program if the commitment from the admin isn’t there.
If we are going to pay a HC millions and spend millions to run a B1G program, then take the steps to make it possible to be competitive.
Then reduce the program or commit to the program. This half arsed approach is embarrassing and a waste of money.
They aren't going to "reduce the program". Stop making up shit (to quote a board sage).
All the transfers are significant better than the empty schollies. Especially in light of the current lack of depth due to injuries.
It’s wildly ridiculous to jump to conclusions that players are run off. It’s college basketball and I’m sure Collins is upfront with court time and the direction he is going with his players. Some can choose to stay knowing they’ll be bench guys but others go elsewhere for playing time. I love how we assume that the evil empire is running people out.
And with all due respect, Bob, you opinion is just nuts. No Big 10 school can move a revenue sport out of the conference and remain a member otherwise. To "reduce the program" they'd have to leave the B1G and the school would be absolutely insane to give up the money and the reputation of belonging to the conference.
Given the current admissions philosophy, NU will be in the bottom half of the B1G talent-wise. NU is competitive in facilities and spending on coaches. You don't like it, don't follow the team.
I'm speaking about one player who was run off and not just told to go away, but actually had some underling try to forge the kid's signature on a time card to make him look bad and expedite the exit. That was freaking shameful. Unless you're among the geniuses here who apparently believe the kid forgot how to spell his name.
I would contrast this coach with one about 90 miles to the east, who at least owns up to it when he and a player agree that the player should move on. At least that coach comes out publicly and says he failed that kid.
Honor. Everyone should try it sometime.
A head coach’s salary does not equal success. There are literally hundreds, if not thousands, of individual things that determine the success of a program in any given year. Many of them are beyond any coach’s control.
Was Collins responsible for what happened with Lathon? No. Did he cause the injuries to Falzon and Ivanauskas that derailed their careers here? No. Is he to blame for admissions rejecting Freeman, as Haywood described? No.
I am so sick of this argument that just because he is paid well, NU should be a great team. There are so many factors that go into the equation. I see the foundation of a good team here. It’s on Collins to sell that vision to 2021 recruits.
I know the people he worked for well and I trust them more than an 18 year old kid.
Despite generally being a pessimist, I have found in life that constantly worrying about "what ifs" is not a very useful exercise, nor does it actually prepare you for real adversity.
Nope, I will follow and voice my opinions. Go move to a more restrictive country if you want to try to silence opinions you don’t like.
And fine, assume the admin has no interest in doing what’s necessary to field a competitive team and no interest in downgrading the level to something that would allow the team to compete, then I would argue they should stop throwing good money after bad.
If the admin is unwilling to support a system that allows for a competitive team, then we don’t need multi-million dollar coaches and facilities. If the team won’t compete, then it’s a waste of money. Also, shift some of that scholarship money to other male sports that are limited in scholarship number by Title IX.
In real programs, underperforming coaches aren’t given 13 years to earn their contracts. If you want a participation trophy team to support, try peewee basketball. How much are they charging for purple STs? Parking? Wilson club?
Come on! Paying big bucks does not come with expectations? That's ridiculous.
Lathon, Falzon, Rap and Freeman were not mistakes. I agree, beyond the coach's control. But examples like those happen to every program. It's all in the game. They do not justify not having enough other players to still be competitive.
It's NU, it's not Kansas. Talent is not always going to be great. Fine. But paying $3M to a coach comes with the expectation that coach can, well... coach. And that is still very much a question mark for CC.
Could be that someone in the athletic did exactly what you said. Could be that the kid was out of town and had someone do his timecard for him
We had a time clock where I worked in high school...had to punch in and out...and lots of stuff went on with those cards. And we didn't write our names our selves. Management put the cards out each week and collected them at close on Sunday.
I know it's a little ridiculous to bring any level of complexity like market factors to the discussion of Collins and his salary, but you guys understand his salary is pretty average compared to other B10 coaches, right?
We'll also ignore that its obvious a large majority of the participants out here have some definite reservations and disappointment about the direction of this thing.
But let's continue down the road of the sportsradio meathead, and push aside any detail like demand for the NU gig, admissions, injuries or the acts of a kid. They would just muck up the holy gospel of the salary-wins sermon.
Let's assume you are right, because total compensation is very hard to determine. And CC salary is not even public record.
Doesn't that entitle fans to expect him to be as competent as the rest of the B1G coaches?
You might believe he is. Does not mean there's not plenty of us who have serious doubts about it.
And yet, personally I still believe he might be a good fit for us, because of what you just pointed out, demand for NU gig, complexity of the job, etc. In 2 years, he will have been at NU for 9. If he can't be competitive, than he is a lousy developer and user of players.
Notwithstanding the hyperbolic comments above from - what does he call himself this week? - Bob - it is entirely reasonable to have expectations that are, well, reasonable. Just as many of us were demanding something akin to a Skimmington Ride for McCall because you simply can't be the absolute worst and not take action, it is ok - really - for NU fans to expect either a) a reasonable minimum level of performance or b) a recovery plan, neither of which we have. A reasonable minimum level of performance would be to win, say, not less than 4 B1G games, not get crushed too often and not lose to D3-type teams often. Last year would be an example of bare minimum, although the long L streak looms large.
This year, not getting crushed, but several bad losses, and, let's say we end up with zero or 1 wins. Forget Carmody comparisons, compare CCC to himself. His first couple of years were reasonable and trending upward. Remember that Fitz-criticizer that used to say something 6-5-4-3-3-1? CCC may go 6-6-8-10-6-4-...one/zero? To me, this is like being in a plane (like Bob!) in an out-of-control dive and saying it's ok because we are still 500 feet above ground.
It's ok to expect to NOT be the worst
I never said that getting paid a high salary (though about the going rate for the Big Ten) doesn’t come with expectations. Of course it does.
But just because he is paid $3 million doesn’t mean he can just snap his fingers and magically make the roster instantly competitive. No coach could, unless you believe there is a better recruiter out there who could more effectively convince Top 50 type guys to actually do the academics part of college and play for NU.
Thus, the idea that he’s somehow “not doing his job” is ludicrous.
There is no cost to running the program. It is covered by what we get from BIG and BTN. Get rid of program and we likely lose more than we gain. He is doing what he is paidto do which is building a program basically from the ground up. As far as the donations for facility improvement, likely would not have happened if CCC was not here. Last guy who was experienced, got us some respectability but then went into the same tank that CCC is in. Again BCs best years were after the funk in years 7 and 8. Hopefully CCCs are as well. Sure looks like we are having more pieces than in the past. Give them a chance to develop
I agree with you. And, even if there are better recruiters out there, find it unlikely we could attract someone who could recruit better than CC.
Also, I do not think he is "not doing his job". I have no info or reason to believe he is not a hard worker.
But that's useless if you can't get more than 4 wins, like last season, with a fairly decent roster. Or you can't make the tourney, or even get close to making it, with a preseason ranked team. Guard play, league better than usual, losing glue guy, All State, injuries, blah blah blah. 4 and 6 wins was very mediocre.
Do you believe 4 B1G wins next season is acceptable? Or the season after?
The difference is that we do not have any where near sa many potential candidates that can get through admissions. When one fails like the ones listed did, it is much much harder to "work around" than it is at other programs
I can't believe I've become the guy who has to fight for reasonable expectations. That's a sad day.
If you can't see a recovery plan - on the low level ... just a plan - through the injuries and some very unusual recruiting circumstances, I can't help you with that. Whether it produces anything is a very reasonable question.
And of course, we'll just breeze by the idea that another plan has already been successful.
I won't even bother with the oh-so-NU discussion of minimum performance. Everybody knows this blows right now, and it shouldn't be accepted ... ON A REGULAR BASIS.
But if you accept the reality of NU admissions, history and fan support, you understand these trainwrecks are going to happen in - what we hope is - this evolution. Contrary to many of the Steinbrenner-like beliefs out here, this was never going to turn on a dime.
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