No Acceptable Reason we are in this position

[freewillie07]

I agree with you. And, even if there are better recruiters out there, find it unlikely we could attract someone who could recruit better than CC.

Also, I do not think he is "not doing his job". I have no info or reason to believe he is not a hard worker.

But that's useless if you can't get more than 4 wins, like last season, with a fairly decent roster. Or you can't make the tourney, or even get close to making it, with a preseason ranked team. Guard play, league better than usual, losing glue guy, All State, injuries, blah blah blah. 4 and 6 wins was very mediocre.

Do you believe 4 B1G wins next season is acceptable? Or the season after?

Four B1G wins next season would merit putting Collins on the hot seat. Four B1G wins in 2021-22 and I would almost certainly support a coaching change.

(We also have different opinions on a “fairly decent roster.” While NU absolutely should have won at least 2-3 more games last year, the lack of a PG was killer. And again, that was beyond CCC’s control.)

 

[GatoLouco]

The difference is that we do not have any where near sa many potential candidates that can get through admissions. When one fails like the ones listed did, it is much much harder to "work around" than it is at other programs

Admissions is a problem. I agree.

But admissions has nothing to do with whether CC can develop or use players efficiently. We've had talent to expect more than what we got the last couple of years. This year, different story.

 

[GatoLouco]

Four B1G wins next season would merit putting Collins on the hot seat. Four B1G wins in 2021-22 and I would almost certainly support a coaching change.

Exactly what I think.

And, if that happens, and I hope it doesn't, I don't see myself in a position to accept excuses of transfers or injuries. Everyone has them and it's not like we have a blue chip, who injured or transferred, would make that much of a difference.

 

[willycat]

The difference is that we do not have any where near sa many potential candidates that can get through admissions. When one fails like the ones listed did, it is much much harder to "work around" than it is at other programs

Duke seems to find a way or two.

 

[phatcat]

Let's say the CCC supporters are right, that he will right the ship. OK, I'm happy to say I was wrong. I've been married 30+ years, saying I was wrong is something i do well

OTOH, what is he really is a bad coach? Are we so intimidated that "no one will come" to the graveyard of coaches?

How about this. Develop a database of coaches that are a) lower paid b) successful c) in lesser conferences d) not older than dirt. My hypothesis is that there may be as many as 10.

Pick one. If he sucks, get another. Beats having a moribund program. Just don't accept being the worst.

 

[Styre]

Four B1G wins next season would merit putting Collins on the hot seat. Four B1G wins in 2021-22 and I would almost certainly support a coaching change.

He should be on the hot seat after this year, assuming they don't go off and win a bunch of games down the stretch. If, after that, they go 4-16 in conference play again next year, with what will then be a reasonably experienced roster with some of the highest-rated recruits in program history scattered across it, it should be the end of Collins' tenure. Missing the postseason 7 times in 8 years, with 6 sub-.500 seasons, is enough evidence to move on.

 

[hdhntr1]

Admissions is a problem. I agree.

But admissions has nothing to do with whether CC can develop or use players efficiently. We've had talent to expect more than what we got the last couple of years. This year, different story.

But it has a heck of a lot to do with the players CCC has to develop.

 

[hdhntr1]

He should be on the hot seat after this year, assuming they don't go off and win a bunch of games down the stretch. If, after that, they go 4-16 in conference play again next year, with what will then be a reasonably experienced roster with some of the highest-rated recruits in program history scattered across it, it should be the end of Collins' tenure. Missing the postseason 7 times in 8 years, with 6 sub-.500 seasons, is enough evidence to move on.

Sorry but no. This year was going to be a rebuilding year regardless. But with the injuries... It isn't just that we only had 8 scholarship players available the other night and 7 against MN but we were short at the guard position because of all the injuries. We played both teams tough but just outmanned at this point in a very tough conference. Likely if we had Buie or Gains we have a good shot at winning both those games. Now if it were to go on a couple more years then I might agree. But not after this year.

 

[go cats go]

We've had talent to expect more than what we got the last couple of years. This year, different story.

This difference is at the heart of why I can actually live with the current circumstances. The team has a bit of the heartbeat of Collins' teams leading up to that Tournament season. That Pound the Rock pulse and ethic. I loved the energy in the Providence game (especially after the opener, but still). This team has some fight. They won't win many, but they'll win some B1G games...and the messageboard will be sporadically happy.

But it has a heck of a lot to do with the players CCC has to develop.

I am most excited about Beran at the moment. I can imagine a world in which Beran becomes another all-timer in the mold of Vukusic or Shurna--natural scorer, outside shooting, inside scoring, able to drive, decent mid-range game, solid rebounding, some blocked shots, good passer, able to play multiple positions, good ball handler, crafty post play, decent defender, good length, fairly athletic, strong competitor, good free throw shooter and so on. Collins and company seem like they have plenty to work with in Beran.

 

[IGNORE2]

Notwithstanding the hyperbolic comments above from - what does he call himself this week? - Bob - it is entirely reasonable to have expectations that are, well, reasonable. Just as many of us were demanding something akin to a Skimmington Ride for McCall because you simply can't be the absolute worst and not take action, it is ok - really - for NU fans to expect either a) a reasonable minimum level of performance or b) a recovery plan, neither of which we have. A reasonable minimum level of performance would be to win, say, not less than 4 B1G games, not get crushed too often and not lose to D3-type teams often. Last year would be an example of bare minimum, although the long L streak looms large.

This year, not getting crushed, but several bad losses, and, let's say we end up with zero or 1 wins. Forget Carmody comparisons, compare CCC to himself. His first couple of years were reasonable and trending upward. Remember that Fitz-criticizer that used to say something 6-5-4-3-3-1? CCC may go 6-6-8-10-6-4-...one/zero? To me, this is like being in a plane (like Bob!) in an out-of-control dive and saying it's ok because we are still 500 feet above ground.

It's ok to expect to NOT be the worst

Thanks

 

[IGNORE2]

There is no cost to running the program. It is covered by what we get from BIG and BTN. Get rid of program and we likely lose more than we gain. He is doing what he is paidto do which is building a program basically from the ground up. As far as the donations for facility improvement, likely would not have happened if CCC was not here. Last guy who was experienced, got us some respectability but then went into the same tank that CCC is in. Again BCs best years were after the funk in years 7 and 8. Hopefully CCCs are as well. Sure looks like we are having more pieces than in the past. Give them a chance to develop

We could reallocate the money and scholarships (Title IX limitations) - in a much better fashion if the admin has no plans to field a competitive squad. Take the money, smile and bulk up our non-revenue sports. Maybe we can replace this board with a Mens swim team board to follow the subsequent annual national championship contenders. And they also sport a high graduation rate...

 

[IGNORE2]

But it has a heck of a lot to do with the players CCC has to develop.

Who recruited said players? One cannot say that NU cannot draw players that can be developed. Do we really want to go down that path?

 

[willycat]

We could reallocate the money and scholarships (Title IX limitations) - in a much better fashion if the admin has no plans to field a competitive squad. Take the money, smile and bulk up our non-revenue sports. Maybe we can replace this board with a Mens swim team board to follow the subsequent annual national championship contenders. And they also sport a high graduation rate...

Hockey???

 

[hdhntr1]

Who recruited said players? One cannot say that NU cannot draw players that can be developed. Do we really want to go down that path?

What players were recruited that NU would not let in?

 

[IGNORE2]

What players were recruited that NU would not let in?

What players have come to NU and become all B1G?

 

[GatoLouco]

But it has a heck of a lot to do with the players CCC has to develop.

Sure does. But isn't that beyond the point of whether he can develop players or not?

Debatable for sure, but one could even argue lower ranked players might have more room for development than 5* recruits.But, again, beyond the point.

 

[freewillie07]

We could reallocate the money and scholarships (Title IX limitations) - in a much better fashion if the admin has no plans to field a competitive squad. Take the money, smile and bulk up our non-revenue sports. Maybe we can replace this board with a Mens swim team board to follow the subsequent annual national championship contenders. And they also sport a high graduation rate...

right, “the admin has no plans to field a competitive squad.” that’s definitely their plan, yep.

do you even hear yourself?

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

Sure does. But isn't that beyond the point of whether he can develop players or not?

Debatable for sure, but one could even argue lower ranked players might have more room for development than 5* recruits.But, again, beyond the point.

You mean like Ryan Young?

 

[GatoLouco]

GatoLouco said:

↑



Sure does. But isn't that beyond the point of whether he can develop players or not?

Debatable for sure, but one could even argue lower ranked players might have more room for development than 5* recruits.But, again, beyond the point.

You mean like Ryan Young?
[/quote]
Sure. Or Dererk.

 

[hdhntr1]

Duke seems to find a way or two.

Standards at Duke for a BB player are no where near what they are here

 

[hdhntr1]

Sure does. But isn't that beyond the point of whether he can develop players or not?

Debatable for sure, but one could even argue lower ranked players might have more room for development than 5* recruits.But, again, beyond the point.

Especially since we have never gotten a 5 * recruit

 

[hdhntr1]

What players have come to NU and become all B1G?

The problem is not necessarily getting one player that can get to that level but getting enough good guys in the system at the same time to develop together. Again, the % of top players that we can even entertain going after is only about 10% of the pool other programs have to work with, especially at certain positions and there is a lot of competition for that elite group.

Fact is that CCC has been pretty good getting some to come. It is hard to get enough and when those that come get bitten by the injury bug or don't get beyond a certain point, the effects are magnified

 

[willycat]

What players were recruited that NU would not let in?

Not sure of the names or circumstances but seems like quite a few names have been talked about on this board, regarding admissions in the last 10 years or so.

 

[hdhntr1]

Not sure of the names or circumstances but seems like quite a few names have been talked about on this board, regarding admissions in the last 10 years or so.

That is the point. Plenty of guys that would have come, or at least would have had an interest, admissions would not let in. Again, we are limited to about 10% of the top guys and it is not as if no one else wants them.

 

[haywood jahblowme]

Standards at Duke for a BB player are no where near what they are here

duke literally has the ncaa minimum as their recrutiing requirements.

 

[hdhntr1]

duke literally has the ncaa minimum as their recrutiing requirements.

They are that high? A bunch of them lately have gone to the pros before they really ever set foot in class. They have made a joke of the term "student athlete"

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

They are that high? A bunch of them lately have gone to the pros before they really ever set foot in class. They have made a joke of the term "student athlete"

That term has been a joke for 40 years. Players go to Duke to join the NBA. Pretty much every recruit they get. That is their vocational training and taking an Art Appreciation class isn’t going to help them any in later life. It’s a bigger joke trying to pretend they are students first.

 

[willycat]

Standards at Duke for a BB player are no where near what they are here

Yet they are mentioned along with NU when high academic schools are discussed. So is Vanderbilt.

 

[IGNORE2]

right, “the admin has no plans to field a competitive squad.” that’s definitely their plan, yep.

do you even hear yourself?

Every time I hear one of opine that NU refuses to give any leeway in admissions and therefore we cannot recruit, that’s my takeaway.

 

[hdhntr1]

Yet they are mentioned along with NU when high academic schools are discussed. So is Vanderbilt.

The rest of the school maybe but with regards to athletes, only Stanford is close to our standards for admission

 

[hdhntr1]

Every time I hear one of opine that NU refuses to give any leeway in admissions and therefore we cannot recruit, that’s my takeaway.

Not that they give no leeway. Just that the amount of leeway is no where close to what other "academic" institutions give. You, yourself, indicated that Duke found a way indicating that you thought we had the same standards for admission of athletes was the same as here and they are not even close. Many of their top BB players don't go there to play school. Many of us feel that BB needs to be given more leeway on who they can bring in. Not as far as Duke has, but certainly more than we have now.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

Not that they give no leeway. Just that the amount of leeway is no where close to what other "academic" institutions give. You, yourself, indicated that Duke found a way indicating that you thought we had the same standards for admission of athletes was the same as here and they are not even close. Many of their top BB players don't go there to play school. Many of us feel that BB needs to be given more leeway on who they can bring in. Not as far as Duke has, but certainly more than we have now.

Why not as far as Duke has? Has the number of strong applicants declined due the dunce caps that suddenly get admitted to play B Ball? Is there an uproar from the student body or the Alumni of Duke that this “athletes” are tarnishing our reputation as an elite university?

 

[hdhntr1]

Why not as far as Duke has? Has the number of strong applicants declined due the dunce caps that suddenly get admitted to play B Ball? Is there an uproar from the student body or the Alumni of Duke that this “athletes” are tarnishing our reputation as an elite university?

Sorry, just feel Duke has gone too far with ++




































































































































































































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[flight 33]

Where is @mikewebb68 ?

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

Where is @mikewebb68 ?

Moved on to become a Fighting Undie Fan.

 

[hdhntr1]

Why not as far as Duke has? Has the number of strong applicants declined due the dunce caps that suddenly get admitted to play B Ball? Is there an uproar from the student body or the Alumni of Duke that this “athletes” are tarnishing our reputation as an elite university?

Sorry but Duke has gone, IMHO, way too far. They and KY make a mockery of the situation even worse than any of the FB factories. For FB, they at least have to stay for 3 years. But in BB, they only have to get through one quarter or semester and they can go pro

 

[NJCat]

Sorry but Duke has gone, IMHO, way too far. They and KY make a mockery of the situation even worse than any of the FB factories. For FB, they at least have to stay for 3 years. But in BB, they only have to get through one quarter or semester and they can go pro

Not Duke or Kentucky's fault. Blame likes with the NBA and the NBAPA. They made the rule that players couldn't go to the NBA until they are at least 1 year removed from high school. Cal and Coach K are paid to win BB games. They are doing what every other college coach would do, putting the best product on the floor they can.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

Sorry but Duke has gone, IMHO, way too far. They and KY make a mockery of the situation even worse than any of the FB factories. For FB, they at least have to stay for 3 years. But in BB, they only have to get through one quarter or semester and they can go pro

The rules are the same for every school. Is Duke not supposed to take the best players because they are likely one and done?

Sorry, Coach K’s job is to get the best players he can to put Duke in position to challenge or win the Natty. Very few if any care about his graduation % for recruits. The term “student athlete” which the NCAA insists on using when introducing players for press conferences is a joke and always has been. These players are recruited to Duke to challenge for a Natty not a Rhodes Scholar.

 

[Vassar69]

Well, they at least care about academics to the point that they ensure their APR stays above the threshold for scholarship reductions. Of course that only requires students to “make progress towards their degree” within each semester before they withdraw.

But to my knowledge nobody is hanging banners for graduation rate, and Duke sure has a lot of banners...

 

[hdhntr1]

The rules are the same for every school. Is Duke not supposed to take the best players because they are likely one and done?

Sorry, Coach K’s job is to get the best players he can to put Duke in position to challenge or win the Natty. Very few if any care about his graduation % for recruits. The term “student athlete” which the NCAA insists on using when introducing players for press conferences is a joke and always has been. These players are recruited to Duke to challenge for a Natty not a Rhodes Scholar.

I just object to the poster suggesting "well Duke finds a way so why cannot we" As if they have the same constraints. I was in AZ when the rules started to get relaxed about the mid 70s. Even then, I think they could go after 3 years. But this one and done is a travesty. FB seems to have hit a better balance with them having to remain 3 years.