Off topic, though not entirely. Football penalties.

[Eurocat]

I was watching some playoff hockey last night and a player got sent off for two minutes.

It then came to me that (as far as I know) they are the only sport that penalizes in this way.

I was wondering if an average coach would prefer to take a five yard penalty (ten yards? more?) or play one down (two downs? more?) with 10 guys.

 

[shakes3858]

I was watching some playoff hockey last night and a player got sent off for two minutes.

It then came to me that (as far as I know) they are the only sport that penalizes in this way.

I was wondering if an average coach would prefer to take a five yard penalty (ten yards? more?) or play one down (two downs? more?) with 10 guys.

Playing defense with 10 would be nightmare especially in todays spread game. Not sure how'd you play it and I think it would be disastrous as in easy huge gains.

On Offense it would mean one less WR, so one more guy is getting doubled. You could just run a dive into to the line and hope to get a Couple yards but let's say it would be no gain. Would you rather lose 5 yards or lose a down? Either way, I don't think it's the end of the world.

Obviously, situations matter but i think this would favor the offense immensely and be a huge disadvantage to the defense. I also think it would make the game a lot less fun.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

It's an interesting thought.

Kind of a different angle on the same idea, what if a particular player were put in a penalty box for 2 to 5 minutes for certain penalties, like roughing the passer, illegal block, taunting, or personal foul? Team can have 11 on the field, but not that player, he's out for a while. Kind of a lesser version of the ejection penalty already in use, but lesser severity for lesser offenses.

Would still stick with loss of yards or downs for the more mundane offenses, of course, like off sides or false start, illegal substitution, etc.

Thanks for the nice thought-provoking thread, Euro.

 

[Deeringfish]

It's an interesting thought.

Kind of a different angle on the same idea, what if a particular player were put in a penalty box for 2 to 5 minutes for certain penalties, like roughing the passer, illegal block, taunting, or personal foul? Team can have 11 on the field, but not that player, he's out for a while. Kind of a lesser version of the ejection penalty already in use, but lesser severity for lesser offenses.

Would still stick with loss of yards or downs for the more mundane offenses, of course, like off sides or false start, illegal substitution, etc.

Thanks for the nice thought-provoking thread, Euro.

I actually like the idea of personalizing penalties in that way. The player feels the pain he created and gets a blow which might save him an injury. It also gives some oe else a chance to play.

 

[Gladeskat]

This is silly. The immediate objective in football is to gain ten yards in 3 downs and get a first down. The most reasonable penalty is to add or reduce yardage needed to reach that objective. The player who commits a penalty definitely feels the pain for what he did to his teammates. I still remember many of the penalties I made over 40 years ago. Taking a man off the field gives the offense or defense a tremendous advantage, disproportionate to the "crime". This is particularly true to a game which is tightly orchestrated with designed plays and can rapidly exploit the loss of a player.

Hockey and soccer are more free-flowing with more loosely designed plays. The only way to punish a team short of giving the opponent a goal is to take a player off the ice.

 

[Deeringfish]

This is silly. The immediate objective in football is to gain ten yards in 3 downs and get a first down. The most reasonable penalty is to add or reduce yardage needed to reach that objective. The player who commits a penalty definitely feels the pain for what he did to his teammates. I still remember many of the penalties I made over 40 years ago. Taking a man off the field gives the offense or defense a tremendous advantage, disproportionate to the "crime". This is particularly true to a game which is tightly orchestrated with designed plays and can rapidly exploit the loss of a player.

Hockey and soccer are more free-flowing with more loosely designed plays. The only way to punish a team short of giving the opponent a goal is to take a player off the ice.

That is a good point Glades. I have never really given much thought to the penalty portion of sports. It is really interesting all the different variations. In BB penalties usually cause a change of position and sometimes penalty shots and eventual personal disqualification. Hockey has the shorthanded play. Baseball being less of a contact sport has the advancement of bases. All seem to have ejection for certain levels of poor sportsmanship.

 

[docrugby1]

I was watching some playoff hockey last night and a player got sent off for two minutes.

It then came to me that (as far as I know) they are the only sport that penalizes in this way.

I was wondering if an average coach would prefer to take a five yard penalty (ten yards? more?) or play one down (two downs? more?) with 10 guys.

There are plenty of sports that have "penalty boxes"

Lacrosse-30 seconds for minor offenses to major unreleasable penalties that do not expire if a goal is scored

Rugby- 10 minute "sin binning" for flagrant fouls, professional fouls. Red card offenses lead to playing a man down for the remainder of the game

There are many others-my favorite though was roller derby

 

[Alaskawildkat]

In a game like Hockey your defense and offense are on the ice at the same time so a penalized team still has the option of just focusing on defense to "kill" the penalty. Not sure how one could "kill" a penalty in football when a team is only going to have its offense or defense on the field at one point in time. The idea though of not allowing an ejected player to have a replacement is intriguing. If you have a team with strong backups like the powerhouses have it really is not much of a punishment when someone equally talented can just step in as a replacement.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

So a follow-up to the idea of personalizing penalties in football, I'd propose that all down and distance penalties remain as they are. Then on top of those costs, the offending player goes into a penalty box for a period of time on certain penalties. Team can substitute for that player; the penalty to the team is the down/distance element.

Looking through the 36 most commonly called penalties, I could see about a third of them benefiting from this kind of addition to the game.

• Add a 2-minute penalty box element to 5 penalties: block below the waist, block in the back, horse-collar tackle, tripping, unsportsmanlike conduct (no contact involved).
• Add a 4-minute penalty box element to 5 penalties: chop block, clipping, face mask, roughing the passer/kicker, and spearing.
• Add a 5-minute penalty box element to 1 penalty: personal foul
• Maintain the remainder of half + another half element to 1 penalty: targeting

Then leave the other 24 common penalties without a penalty box component: delay of game, encroachment, equipment violation, false start, holding, illegal batting, illegal formation, illegal forward pass, illegal kick, illegal kickoff, illegal motion, illegal participation, illegal shift, substitution infraction, ineligible receiver, illegal touching of a kick, illegal use of hands, intentional grounding, leaping, neutral zone infraction, offside, pass interference, running into the kicker (not roughing; see above), and sideline infraction.

I'm really warming to the idea. Think it makes a lot of sense, and adds an element of personal responsibility/personal cost to the more egregious penalties.

 

[hdhntr1]

It's an interesting thought.

Kind of a different angle on the same idea, what if a particular player were put in a penalty box for 2 to 5 minutes for certain penalties, like roughing the passer, illegal block, taunting, or personal foul? Team can have 11 on the field, but not that player, he's out for a while. Kind of a lesser version of the ejection penalty already in use, but lesser severity for lesser offenses.

Would still stick with loss of yards or downs for the more mundane offenses, of course, like off sides or false start, illegal substitution, etc.

Thanks for the nice thought-provoking thread, Euro.

If it was for a period of time and the ball changed hands during that period (downs or whatever) if would negate the impact of the offense. If a team was in a 2 minute drill type O, it would magnify the effect.