Pat Baldwin Jr
- Thread starter The Purple Knight
- Start date
Another top prospect selects the G League.
This is the future. And if they produce a Top-5 pick this year, the flood gates will open.
I doubt it. G league isn’t on espn every night like the college blue bloods. The exposure could be worth millions when it comes to future endorsements.
Now go make a post for each of the other top 25 prospects and tell me whether they are going to college or the G League
It’s a new thing, right?
I don’t follow college hoops enough to know but, other than Zion, who has come to the nba as a pre-ordained star in the last decade?
I saw Jayson Tatum on a bag of Ruffles the other day, but it was because he scores like crazy with Boston, not because he won the ACC tournament and lost in the second round with Duke in 2017 (I looked those things up).
LaMelo is the biggest star in the current rookie class, and he disappeared for three years.
The thread between Zion and LaMelo is that they were stars before college.
Nobody comes to the NBA as a star because of college anymore, because they only spend 35 games there.
What? Ben Simmons, Anthony Davis, Karl Anthony-Towns were all huge stars in college. Throw Andrew Wiggins in there too. Cade Cunningham this year, if he lives up to his potential.
Simmons is a PBJ story. Nobody cared about LSU before and nobody since. Cunningham is similar — and his postseason was a washout.
I think Davis is the only guy who became a star because of college, simply because a) he won, and b) he emerged as a prospect so late.
Yes now tell me who cares about watching the G League. People watched LSU for Ben Simmons - that’s the entire purpose. College ball is a platform for these players. Why is Cunningham a household name for basketball fans but not Kuminga? The vast majority of top prospects, when they have to choose between the G League and college, they end up picking college for obvious reasons.
There has never been another option. That’s all. I suspect more kids will continue to go pro.
Unfortunately fewer people are watching college basketball these days as well. Certainly most top players continue to choose a year in college. But the G League and overseas continue to offer options that are attractive to some of the top prospects. My guess is that more top prospects will choose those options in the future, forcing the NBA to eventually dump the age 19 limit. Then any top prospect who wants to go straight to the league will do so.
Why would that force the NBA to dump the age 19 limit? They can go play in the G League or overseas until they reach age 19, then go to the NBA. I don't see the forcing function.
Ironically, the one thing that can save NCAA basketball from losing its stars is the same thing that threatens to destroy NCAA sports on the whole -- NIL action. Mark Emmert and the entire system as we know it is in a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situation.
Collins not being able to build a.winning, if not an NCAA tourney team, the past 4 seasons is why the Cats weren't even a finalist despite all the ties and being close to family being high on PBJ's list.
CC has done a decent job when it comes to getting a certain # of 4* and/or Top 150 recruits to commit (albeit, at the very start, stated that without a schematic advantage, he's going to have to recruit even better), but the problem is that too many of those recruits haven't panned out and has done a downright awful job of building a team roster geared for success.
247 NU recruit rankings
1. Nance
2. Law
3. Beran
4. Kopp
5. Falzon
6. Berry
7. Simmons
8. Roper
9. Barnhizer
10. Cobb
Including the incoming class, CC has recruited 9 of the 10 highest ranked recruits.
Putting aside the incoming frosh (which I have high hopes for, but want to see/hear how they do in practice), how many of the other 6 are better than Shurna, Juice, Crawford, Coble or a healthy Cobb?
Esp. as true frosh (Shurna, etc. all had impacts as frosh).
Someone from before disagreed with my assessment that Nance didn't show much of his potential during his frosh season, but the fact of the matter is, Nance (was pleasantly surprised by his development this past season) showed less inkling than Pardon, who was supposed to RS and had his shirt burned halfway thru his frosh season.
Aside from Law, CC's best players have been his lower rated recruits like BMac, Pardon AWD Lindsey.
Why have so many of CC's top recruits not been able to live up to their star rating/class rankings?
The other side of the coin is that CC has done a piss-poor job of building his roster.
Understand where the game is going/has gone and why CC has heavily recruited wings/stretch-4s, but the problem is that way too few of those wings can create their own shot or drive to the basket and too many of those stretch 4s can't shoot.
That's bad enough, but the teams' struggles is heavily due to not having a B1G caliber ball handler/distributor ever since BMac graduated (you want your 2 to be able to handle bringing up the ball at times, as well as having someone off the bench who can spell your lead guard).
Sobo got a lot of flack here, but what does it say that during these past 3 seasons, the team didn't even have a Sobo level lead guard?
Sobo was limited athletically, but he was a steady ball handler and was good for about 10 ppg.
Having a Sobo on the team the past few seasons would have made a difference.
What made the 2016-17 team a Tourney team was its make-up, having different parts to give teams different looks.
At the core, you had BMac being the facilitator and Pardon being the presence in the middle.
Then you had the 3 Ls - Law, Lumpkin and Lindsay being the perimeter defenders.
When the Cats needed another shooter, you brought in Tap.
When the Cats needed more beef and someone who would drive the other team batty, you brought in Skelly.
And Brown did just enough to spell BMac and to add a scoring punch here and tgete.
There were clear pieces to that team, along with some versatility.
Over the past 3 seasons, struggle with the identity of the team (other than the lack of good ball distribution and throwing up a bad shot).
Going back to recruiting classes, having the 43rd ranked class (247) is great by historical NU standards, but UNL has the 17th ranked class which includes a 4* and a 5*.
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Collins took lower-rated recruits who were not all his to the Dance - isn’t that a credit to him?
These better recruits of Collins are still not quite good enough (see your last point re. UNL). We truly are more competitive than we used to be - I can see that from watching for over 30 years. But we’re just not able to get recruits who will forever change the trajectory of the program.
I agree on the lack of capable point guard post BMac. (But Sobo would not have been the answer).
Bottom line - There aren’t many other coaches out there who are perfect enough to not have some problem that would keep us from the Dance. We have decades of proof. And new facilities just don’t change a program’s perception. Let’s let this all play out a bit more.
The grass isn’t always greener elsewhere - it’s green where you water it.
These better recruits of Collins are still not quite good enough (see your last point re. UNL). We truly are more competitive than we used to be - I can see that from watching for over 30 years. But we’re just not able to get recruits who will forever change the trajectory of the program.
I agree on the lack of capable point guard post BMac. (But Sobo would not have been the answer).
Bottom line - There aren’t many other coaches out there who are perfect enough to not have some problem that would keep us from the Dance. We have decades of proof. And new facilities just don’t change a program’s perception. Let’s let this all play out a bit more.
The grass isn’t always greener elsewhere - it’s green where you water it.
^ Point is, if Lumpkin didn't end up RS (due to unfortunate events) - no tourney, or even maybe if Tap hadn't remained committed to the Cats.
But CC had a template for building a successful team, but went away from that.
And no, whole Sobo wouldn't have been the answer at point, he would still have been a better answer than who was helming the position the past 3 seasons.
But CC had a template for building a successful team, but went away from that.
And no, whole Sobo wouldn't have been the answer at point, he would still have been a better answer than who was helming the position the past 3 seasons.
Please explain why you believe Collins had no impact on Lumpkin’s or Tap’s staying at NU. And please also explain the successful template he has moved away from.
What is the current template for success? I'd wager that the program unfortunately currently doesn't have an identity that it recruits and develops to. And that's a big problem.
I would suggest you re-read the quotes from our incoming freshmen recruits. They have bought into a fast-paced, interchangeable position style of play.
What I think is certainly not the problem. When is the last time we ever recruited 2 guys who were the top 2-3 players in the state, especially good hoop states like IN and MI? And our third recruit “may have the most upside” of the class? I still remain on the side of optimism.
I'll take that to mean that you don't have an answer to "What's the current template for success?" If that's the case, you may want to lay off things like "And please also explain the successful template he has moved away from" and just stick with benign insights like "I still remain on the side of optimism". That's your sweet spot.
Whether you or I like it or not, the (and my) answer is what the recruits (and others) have said it is - fast-paced with guards who can handle multiple positions. I just wanted to hear how things have changed in your mind (not an unreasonable request by me and I even said “please”). Of course you don’t have to answer.I'll take that to mean that you don't have an answer to "What's the current template for success?" If that's the case, you may want to lay off things like "And please also explain the successful template he has moved away from" and just stick with benign insights like "I still remain on the side of optimism". That's your sweet spot.
Well, let's certainly hope the incoming guys actually have the combination of talent and skill to run that kind of scheme.
But there isn't exactly a good track history of K disciples having success - Capel over at Pitt is on the hot seat.
Like I've said, I'm hopeful for the incoming guys but was hopeful about Nance (took a bit later than had thought to bloom), Kopp, Beran, Falzon, Rap, Jones (remember him?), Benson, Boo and Berry (yes, Berry is still young, but was expecting more out of his frosh season) - so excuse me if want to wait until see some proof on the court.
And even if they are an upgrade in talent/skill - it's not like other programs are standing still.
UNL has an incoming 5* and 4*, along with three 3*.
And plenty of recent Cats were top tier recruits in their respective states.
Falzon - 2nd MA
Berry - 1st KS
Boo - 2nd ME
.
Ok, those aren't big BB states, but these are..
Rap - 4th IL
Benson - 5th IL
Nicholson - 6th MI
Young - 4th PA
Jones - 9th GA
Beran - 5th VA
Kopp - 6th TX
Vassar was the 7th ranked recruit in IN; how do we know yet whether Barnhizer is more like BMac than Vassar? (Do think he's more like BMac.)
To put things in perspective, the 5* recruit heading to UNL is #1 in SC.
The 4* is #8 in CA, and one of the 3* is #4 in TX and another, #7 in MO.
Btw, Roper is #4 in MI and Barnhizer is #6 according to 247 composite rankings, so not quite top 2-3.
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All of this is good info. Thanks. I don’t think Boo can take us to the Dance, so I’m happy that we have some very highly rated guards, which we have not had much of recently.
Of course you would undervalue Lumpkin's contribution/value to that team (as you always have) since he isn't a CC recruit.
We've already covered fhis, but here it is again.
Ranked in the Top 10 Glue Guys for 2016-17 by bleacherreport.
Pretty good definition of a glue guy.
"Glue guy" is a nebulous term that means different things to different people. As the phrase suggests, it refers to a player whose presence holds the team together, helping the team function as a single unit, rather than five individuals.
The glue guy may provide a service that is otherwise lacking, such as a physical inside presence, floor leadership or standout defensive play. Often a glue guy's influence is not immediately obvious, but it becomes noticeable over the course of several games or if he is unavailable.
Sometimes the team's best player is the glue guy, but it is often someone else. The glue guy may not get the most publicity, but he is essential to a team's success. Although it is difficult to describe in words what a glue guy does, you know one when you see one, and most top teams have such a player.
We all saw what happened to the team the next season.
Said coach Chris Collins: "Sanjay is our glue guy. He will be our defensive stopper and can guard multiple positions. He can handle (the ball) a little, can make a shot, score inside. He has a nose for the ball. He would have played a lot last year. That was a big loss that people didn't talk about a lot."
Lumpkin got Collins' attention in practice. Team managers keep stats, assigning a plus or minus efficiency value based on categories such as turnovers, offensive rebounds and charges taken.
Lumpkin, a 6-foot-6, 210-pound forward from outside Minneapolis, is tops in practice points.
"I make a lot of hustle plays," he said. "I try to hang my hat on that. Getting offensive rebounds really pushed up the score — and not turning the ball over. I just try to be solid every day."
Said Collins: "He might be our fourth- or fifth-leading scorer, but he is our leading efficiency guy."
Return of 'glue guy' Lumpkin a boost for NU
Northwestern 's best rebounder, defender, "energy guy" and practice player are all the same person. And here's guessing you can't name him.
www.chicagotribune.com
But Sanjay wasn't simply, the glue guy - as Collins had stated, was the heart & soul of the team.
There's a reason why CC had been so effusive in his praise of Lumpkin (so much so, thought CC wanted to adopt him),
From a Daily article.
Asked about Lumpkin’s defensive acumen, Collins rattled off story after story about when Lumpkin forced a game-saving turnover on Illinois’s Malcolm Hill, and another one when he locked down Wake Forest’s John Collins, and more notable feats.
But one story stood out in Collins’ mind, perhaps because it was the first: Lumpkin shifting onto 7-foot Purdue giant A.J. Hammons in the final minutes of a January 2014 game and holding the future NBA player without a field goal for the rest of regulation — and overtime, and double overtime — in a dramatic 66-63 NU win.
“I knew he obviously had a lot of size on me, but I just didn’t care,” Lumpkin said.
♦ ♦ ♦
Over the course of the following three and a half seasons, Lumpkin’s unique combination of strength and lateral quickness and resulting ability to guard many different positions consistently gave the team rotational flexibility at the “three” through “five” spots.
The innateness of those traits also allowed Lumpkin to grow into a mentor for his teammates just like Crawford had been for him. Collins credited Lumpkin for improving the defensive skills of rising seniors Bryant McIntosh and Scottie Lindsey and rising junior Vic Law, who now compose the core of the Cats’ lineup.
Curtain Call: Despite underwhelming numbers, Lumpkin’s Northwestern legacy transcends statistics
A broken wrist sent Sanjay Lumpkin to Salt Lake City, and maybe the Wildcats to the NCAA Tournament. The story is textbook evidence for Lumpkin’s theory that things always happen for a reason and a coincidence that the graduating senior forward has reflected on endless times over the past year...
dailynorthwestern.com
That Daily article started with this sentence...
A broken wrist sent Sanjay Lumpkin to Salt Lake City, and maybe the Wildcats to the NCAA Tournament
While BMac was the QB of the O, Sanjay was that for the D - and that Tourney team was predicated on D, not an explosive O.
We all saw how the D all too often broke down w/o Sanjay running the show; being just about the only guy who can get all others to carry their load on D.
But he wasn't just the glue/leader when the Cats were on the court playing D, he was also the glue (along with Tap) keeping the team together (Tap being the team cook).
There's a reason why during the announcement of the Tourney teams/seeds, CC was sitting next to Sanjay and had his arm around him.
For someone who seemingly takes to everything CC does, you sure are hesitant to follow how much he valued Sanjay.
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You seem to conflate "template for success" with "why players choose a program".
The NCAA tourney team didn't play a particularly fast pace. Guys didn't really play a bunch of different positions. So, those are a few ways things that have changed if you buy into the idea that our template for success is a fast pace with position interchangeability. However, I'd say that the NCAA tourney team hung it's hat on strong help defense, valuing possessions offensively, winning the paint on both ends, and having the ability to score in multiple ways. The whole was greater than the sum of the parts. I don't think anyone would say that is currently the case.
Don't 90% of teams fit that mold of fast pace and interchangeable positions?
For Lumpkin, it would have been a moot point if he hadn't gotten mono and then broke his wrist - leading to a medial RS.
While it didn't seem so at the time, it was a fortuitous circumstance for Lumpkin and us fans.
Think Tap would have stuck with NU no matter who the coach was (he understood the value of an NU degree).
The best sell job CC did to those who had been recruited by BC was Crawford.
Crawford already had his degree and could have gone to program that regularly goes to the Tourney as a grad transfe,but he didn't.
There was someone who had stated that BC had left the cupboard bare - which wasn't the case at all.
Crawford, Cobb, Lumpkin, Demps, Olah, Tap and Sobo all could play, and there was that top 120 recruit who ended up decommitting.
The last couple of years, BC had it tougher than usual when it came to recruiting as he hadn't gotten an extension.
Which is why had always stated that Phillips should have canned BC earlier if he wasn't going to support him.
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That’s hard to parse what it implies - players choose a program but don’t buy into the coach’s template for success?
I agree the pieces all fit well with the Tourney team. But that does not imply to me that Collins’s approach has changed; he’s still looking for a group of pieces that solve the puzzle. I cannot imagine he does not still value all of the things that you mention above that led to success.
Of course you would undervalue Lumpkin's contribution/value to that team (as you always have) since he isn't a CC recruit.
We've already covered fhis, but here it is again.
Ranked in the Top 10 Glue Guys for 2016-17 by bleacherreport.
Pretty good definition of a glue guy.
"Glue guy" is a nebulous term that means different things to different people. As the phrase suggests, it refers to a player whose presence holds the team together, helping the team function as a single unit, rather than five individuals.
The glue guy may provide a service that is otherwise lacking, such as a physical inside presence, floor leadership or standout defensive play. Often a glue guy's influence is not immediately obvious, but it becomes noticeable over the course of several games or if he is unavailable.
Sometimes the team's best player is the glue guy, but it is often someone else. The glue guy may not get the most publicity, but he is essential to a team's success. Although it is difficult to describe in words what a glue guy does, you know one when you see one, and most top teams have such a player.
We all saw what happened to the team the next season.
Said coach Chris Collins: "Sanjay is our glue guy. He will be our defensive stopper and can guard multiple positions. He can handle (the ball) a little, can make a shot, score inside. He has a nose for the ball. He would have played a lot last year. That was a big loss that people didn't talk about a lot."
Lumpkin got Collins' attention in practice. Team managers keep stats, assigning a plus or minus efficiency value based on categories such as turnovers, offensive rebounds and charges taken.
Lumpkin, a 6-foot-6, 210-pound forward from outside Minneapolis, is tops in practice points.
"I make a lot of hustle plays," he said. "I try to hang my hat on that. Getting offensive rebounds really pushed up the score — and not turning the ball over. I just try to be solid every day."
Said Collins: "He might be our fourth- or fifth-leading scorer, but he is our leading efficiency guy."
Return of 'glue guy' Lumpkin a boost for NU
Northwestern 's best rebounder, defender, "energy guy" and practice player are all the same person. And here's guessing you can't name him.www.chicagotribune.com
But Sanjay wasn't simply, the glue guy - as Collins had stated, was the heart & soul of the team.
There's a reason why CC had been so effusive in his praise of Lumpkin (so much so, thought CC wanted to adopt him),
From a Daily article.
Asked about Lumpkin’s defensive acumen, Collins rattled off story after story about when Lumpkin forced a game-saving turnover on Illinois’s Malcolm Hill, and another one when he locked down Wake Forest’s John Collins, and more notable feats.
But one story stood out in Collins’ mind, perhaps because it was the first: Lumpkin shifting onto 7-foot Purdue giant A.J. Hammons in the final minutes of a January 2014 game and holding the future NBA player without a field goal for the rest of regulation — and overtime, and double overtime — in a dramatic 66-63 NU win.
“I knew he obviously had a lot of size on me, but I just didn’t care,” Lumpkin said.
♦ ♦ ♦
Over the course of the following three and a half seasons, Lumpkin’s unique combination of strength and lateral quickness and resulting ability to guard many different positions consistently gave the team rotational flexibility at the “three” through “five” spots.
The innateness of those traits also allowed Lumpkin to grow into a mentor for his teammates just like Crawford had been for him. Collins credited Lumpkin for improving the defensive skills of rising seniors Bryant McIntosh and Scottie Lindsey and rising junior Vic Law, who now compose the core of the Cats’ lineup.
Curtain Call: Despite underwhelming numbers, Lumpkin’s Northwestern legacy transcends statistics
A broken wrist sent Sanjay Lumpkin to Salt Lake City, and maybe the Wildcats to the NCAA Tournament. The story is textbook evidence for Lumpkin’s theory that things always happen for a reason and a coincidence that the graduating senior forward has reflected on endless times over the past year...dailynorthwestern.com
That Daily article started with this sentence...
A broken wrist sent Sanjay Lumpkin to Salt Lake City, and maybe the Wildcats to the NCAA Tournament
While BMac was the QB of the O, Sanjay was that for the D - and that Tourney team was predicated on D, not an explosive O.
We all saw how the D all too often broke down w/o Sanjay running the show; being just about the only guy who can get all others to carry their load on D.
But he wasn't just the glue/leader when the Cats were on the court playing D, he was also the glue (along with Tap) keeping the team together (Tap being the team cook).
There's a reason why during the announcement of the Tourney teams/seeds, CC was sitting next to Sanjay and had his arm around him.
For someone who seemingly takes to everything CC does, you sure are hesitant to follow how much he valued Sanjay.
I doubt his comment was referring to the Sanjay part of your message. I think all recognize the value he brought.
It appears that there are a lot of things that you cannot imagine.
If Collins has a template and is selling recruits on running up and down the floor with five 6'5" players, thats a big problem.
The team is currently best equipped to play slow tempo, grinding, zone defense, pound it inside, kick it out basketball.
Nance, Young and Nicholson fit that mold perfectly and should be the focus of the team, since the first two are clearly the best players on the team at this point.
Or you can sit your best players and lose doing something suboptimal game after game, using your 7th and 8th best players as starters.
If Collins ever has another good season it will be because the players have figured out how to make things work.
The team is currently best equipped to play slow tempo, grinding, zone defense, pound it inside, kick it out basketball.
Nance, Young and Nicholson fit that mold perfectly and should be the focus of the team, since the first two are clearly the best players on the team at this point.
Or you can sit your best players and lose doing something suboptimal game after game, using your 7th and 8th best players as starters.
If Collins ever has another good season it will be because the players have figured out how to make things work.
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