NO, Benson was not standing against Garzas back they were face to face after both went for a contested rebound. Both players are entitled to their space going for a contested rebound. You can't actually believe that Benson fouled Garza, while thinking it's no foul when you purposely throw an elbow to ones face. If you do then you only believe so because of your Io-a loyalties. Garza was getting away with murder and should have fouled out about halfway through the 2nd half.
Second-half thread for Iowa vs. NU
- Thread starter lou v
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Did Benson then swing his face into Garza's elbow. That's sure sounds like what your saying and if so your just plain wrong.
Because they played one of the worst offensive teams. Its not that hard to figure out. We don't challenge anybody. We didn't post up once. Only Gaines took the ball to the rim. You don't draw fouls when you pass around the perimeter for 25 seconds each time.
There has been a ton of ticky tack fouls the last two games. The Illinois game was really bad. Personally watching a free throw contest bores the heck out of me. Many of these “fouls” in the last two games were not called throughout the season and certainly didn’t impact that particular play. In both games the big men were allowed to bang while the Small’s were held to a different standard.I would much prefer a college game where the refs call more fouls, even if it slows down the game. I am so sick of seeing refs call obvious flops offensive fouls (not that this was an issue in this game), and I do not enjoy watching the Michigan State type defense where defenders are allowed to ride/body check the ballhandlers as they are dribbling. Northwestern got called for a few of those today, which surprised me- typically those fouls get called in the non-conference, but completely evaporate once conference play rolls around. Iowa typically doesn’t have to worry about those calls; they just give the ballhandler an open drive to the basket instead
He comes around and rips us BEFORE every football game. He then comes back to tell us we suck, got lucky or shouldn’t have made the conference championship. He was happy as a pig in slop 4 years ago when Iowa won the football game. I think this ass-clown trolls other teams too. Adds zero to the discussion and gets puffy chested after every Iowa Win. Typical Internet tough guy.
It was a foul on benson for hitting Garza's elbow with his cheek?
I concede they were on top of one another, the result of going after a rebound. As a result Benson needs time to separate and neither the refs nor Garza gave him that. If it was a foul on Benson, they didn't need to wait for the elbow. Call the foul. They didn't because it wasn't.
I don't think Garza's intent was malicious, he's not that sort of player. Bigs clear out space that way. They learn it in fourth grade.
But in basketball you can't make contact with a players head by swinging your elbows above the shoulder. Nowhere on the court is that legal. And Garza did see him before doing so.
The initial call was correct. Should not have been a flagrant IMO.
The play had two things I've never seen.
I've never seen a foul overturned on replay.
I've never seen a player hit another in the face with his elbow like that and not get the foul.
See Comment #5 and Play #2 in the rule explanation linked below- yes, it should have been a foul on Benson (although they cannot give him one after the review). By violating Garza’s “cylinder”, the subsequent elbow is actually supposed to be a foul on Benson.
“5. While it is possible for the offense to still commit a player control or flagrant foul, most of the elbow contacts which result from these types of plays are defensive fouls even though the contact may be severe. Officials should not default to an offensive foul as that will be detrimental to the overall attempt to change the culture of playing defense under these new rules.”
https://ncaambb.arbitersports.com/G...Clarifications_and_Play_Situations_111716.pdf
I have never seen that type of play in a basketball game either, but the officials made the correct call under the current rules after the review.
One doesn't have to imagine anything. Watching the replay you can actually see them go for the rebound and get their feet under them as they come down against each other. The Garza looks directly at Benson as he elbows him in the face and then he goes into his shooting motion. The best angle is from about 67:42 to 67:45 of the broadcast.
Garza very obviously cleared Benson out with his elbow and then shot.
If the rules allow for that, I expect we'll see a lot more of it happening because it's a very effective move in getting a nice unobstructed shot at the hoop.
Garza very obviously cleared Benson out with his elbow and then shot.
If the rules allow for that, I expect we'll see a lot more of it happening because it's a very effective move in getting a nice unobstructed shot at the hoop.
I appreciate you posting this 2011, and for those who don't care to spend more time on this, the rule does allow officials to review and rescind the personal foul.
The rule makes it clear that:
The defensive player has his own cylinder;
The offensive player is allowed to swing his arms in a basketball move in front of him if his arms are more vertical than horizontal.
The offensive player's cylinder boundaries are: to his front, arms extended (more vertical than horizontal; so his sides, hip; and, to his back, buttocks.
Garza violated Benson's cylinder. Garza swung his arms/elbows to his side and his back, beyond his hips/buttocks. Garza's arms were more horizontal than vertical (he's two inches taller than Benson and his elbow hit Benson's cheek).
I think what's unique about the play is that it had two, very large post players. Two small guards would not be allowed to lean against one another seven feet away from the basket. Bigs are allowed the contact.
Garza, nor any other player, is entitled to the space that is arms extended 360 degrees around the body. For an elbow to the face to have been ok, Benson's head, which was to the side and behind Garza when he started his move, would have had to be to Garza's front.
The refs got it wrong.
I think the play will get tons of discussion with conference officials and conference refs.
As I posted previously, I like Garza's game. But he does use his elbows to compensate. Like hooking players to create leverage without moving his torso...which is a foul.
I'd bet money that Garza gets called for a few elbow fouls in the next couple of games because his play will be top of mind with officials.
It is a really interesting play and interesting rule. I think the rule is well conceived.
I'm just a fan and my knee jerk reaction is that any elbow to any face has to be punished with extra vigor. There are certain moves that seem to disproportionately risk injury to an opponent - like stepping into/under a shooter in the air - and swinging elbows is a big one.
You are incorrect. The image below is a screengrab from when Garza gained possession of the ball. Notice that Benson is straddling Garza’s leg, his chest is touching Garza’s side, and his face even appears to be touching Garza’s shoulder (or at the very least nearly touching). Benson is invading Garza’s “cylinder”, and thus any contact created from Garza initiating a “basketball move” should be a foul on Benson. I can not fault the officials for initially calling an offensive foul on Garza, but after the review, they clearly corrected their mistake. The rule does not allow them to change the call on the floor to a foul on Benson, so they did the only thing they could do, which is to vacate the foul on Garza and give Iowa possession of the ball.
Garza would have likely been ejected for targeting if this were a football game!
It would have been an offensive foul had Benson not invaded Garza’s “cylinder”. Post defenders are allowed to put a single arm bar in the offensive player’s back, and are obviously allowed to provide resistance with their chest/body if the offensive player starts to back the defender down.
The only reason this came up is because there was a loose ball, and Benson was just a half second too late to the ball, and he ended up in a position where he was invading Garza’s space when Garza gained possession of the ball. The “cylinder rule” typically doesn’t come into play on post possessions, and it would not prevent the move you described above from being called an offensive foul. It was really just due to bad luck on Northwestern’s part in that the ball bounced right to Garza.
I do see that Benson is straddling Garza's lower leg and that's irrelevant to the call. I see that Benson is to Garza's side, he's not fronting Garza. I see Garza's left hip and a few inches of space between that hip and Benson (you can see floor). I see a lean by Benson but I also see a bit of a lean to the the left by Garza. Did Benson lean over his hip to touch his shoulder? It's a tough call and one that is separate and apart from the elbow foul because Benson is to his side.
The rule concedes that an elbow to the face is allowed when it happens to the front of the offensive player during a "basketball move." Arms more vertical than horizontal. Benson is not standing to the front of Garza. he is to his side. The rule allows for a foul to be called on Benson, but not on replay. Nowhere does the rule allow for an elbow to the face when the defensive player is not in front of the offensive player.
It's a foul. If, upon review, you thought Benson committed a foul, you cannot un blow the whistle on Garza. If you could rotate Benson around so he's in front of Garza, toe to toe with his chin inside Garza's extended reach, and if Garza were to load up a bit and whack Benson in the face with his elbow.....no foul upon review.
Benson's position relative to Garza....he is to his side, not his front....means, according to the rule you posted, that any elbow to the face regardless of the cylinder being violated or not is a foul.
Think about what low post play would be like if this were not the case. You want to clear out a couple bigs leaning against you in the paint, throw your elbows.
Also in the photo, look at how Garza holds the ball. The rule is "arms more vertical than horizontal." Ya know, like during a shot. There's a lot of horizontal going on there. There wasn't a basketball move. Garza eyed him, and swung his elbows to clear him out.
2011, you compelled me to read the rule in detail and I thank you for that. Because I'm now expert on the "cylinder rule" I'm going to change my position. It was a flagrant 1 on Garza, possibly a flagrant 2. Two shots, the ball to NU and a coin flip on whether Garza gets tossed.
I appreciate your "cylinder" argument and it would be persuasive if it wasn't obvious from the replay that Garza had the ball, had control, saw Benson, and chose to strike Benson with his elbow to clear him out before shooting.
You paused this too late. This is after Garza has the ball under control and is in the middle of his swing motion. When he collects the ball, you can also clearly see him looking at Benson.
The most telling aspect of the play is that Garza doesn't swing to clear space and shoot in one motion. He swings, makes contact, regroups and goes up for the shot.
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