He WAS better. Who would you rather count on? A quitter who barely contributed or a consistent presence at center for four years? Stop with this nonsense, Mystic. Nobody is going to back you on this..
So 3 seasons under the belt for Collins and no post season to speak of...
- Thread starter Katatonic
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He WAS better. Who would you rather count on? A quitter who barely contributed or a consistent presence at center for four years? Stop with this nonsense, Mystic. Nobody is going to back you on this..
I wouldn't say I'm hyper-focusing on anything. How much can you really count on a guy if he's not interested as a senior during an important stretch. You can't. Thus, he was benched.
Why wouldn't fans be loyal and supportive of the Cats and their current coach? I care FAR MORE about the players and their success at NU than I do about a former coach or even a present coach.
You guys seem to care more about the last coach than NU's success. It comes across as schadenfreude and ugly considering the players work hard and are hungry for success.
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Luka would hardly be the first player to go through something like that, especially if injured and stressed out to begin with. I tend to think the benching stuck because Reggie Hearn was playing really well and BC had wanted to get him on the floor (info from the Hearn long form piece) and it turned out Shurna could play a little 5.
But once again, my original point was even though his productivity waned at the very end of his career (BIG play in 2012), I would still go with Luka. Better athlete, better passer, better rebounder, and a better understanding of the PO than Jennings.
Honestly, who knows. We certainly don't know the situation first hand. I just cant imagine a vital piece like Demps or another important piece on the current team just suddenly deciding he's not interested anymore and playing lazy during an vital stretch run...so much so he gets benched. It's very strange...
Why all the hatred towards NU's current BB coach? Also when you don't have an answer when challenged, internet "tough guys" like you lash out by calling others names. Really don't know why you post on a NU message board, since your are obviously not an actual NU fan, just a fan of a certain coach. Maybe you just get off by expressing hate, real sad.
So you have that KON left the best center and power forward that BC had during his tenure. And Jitim. And when you add in the guys that BC was not able to hold on to (such as Johnson who likely would have been at or near the top of the list at his position) and you sure cannot say that the cupboard was bare.
Add that TH was the best PF BC had during his tenure and Jitim was the best player on a couple of those teams. And McCants and Johnson were not chopped liver. And Derren Brody was a guy who I liked a lot and who was pretty important to his new school helping them to the dance. Blake and Burke were also not terrible. Not saying the cupboard was full but it sure was not as empty as some would like to suggest.
While you think that TH was middle of the pack, he was the best we had during the 13 years of BC. (Shurna was PF in name only) He as consistent and his senior year stats were 12.3 ppg, 6.4 rpg( 6th) and 1 block and 2.4 apg. That was also before PFs were a threat from 3. He really did not even shoot from there in his first two years and in his Sr. season when he took more shots from 3, he averaged 28%. He gave us an inside presence (which was his job) that we never had again after he left under BC.
Regarding AJ at center, again, the best we had during the 13 year BC tenure.
And Jitim Young, what needs to be said?
That is three starters that were the best (or close to it) at their position during the entire BC era.
And that DC was starting said that we were unable to hang on to Newman and BC was unable to get a viable replacement. While the cupboard was not full, it certainly was not empty.
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That would be assuming Olah would have improved for Carmody like he did for Collins. If you take past evidence into account, he probably wouldn't have...
So you want to count Jennings Frosh and Soph years vs MTs JR and Sr years? And MT only played in 15 games as a JR so were those mostly preseason? MT only played in 15 games as a JR so were they mostly preseason? And AJs Sr year was better. Do we need to go into MTs Sr year? Not saying MT was less talented. Just that AJ had a far bigger impact.
While Olah has become a pretty good center, it sure was not under BC. BC was not particularly good at recruiting centers and worse at developing them. Jennings might still have a slight edge.
Thanks for playing Hdhnter.
A few points: just some basics. To post here you should know a few names, a few dates, a few things about anything. Understanding rpi would be a big plus, for example.
1) The guy's name was Brody Deren, not Derren Brody. If you have no clue, just don't post about it.
2) He never played for Carmody. If you don't know, just don't talk.
3) Burke averaged 4 points and 2 rebounds over his 4 year career. That's not even aspiring to chopped liver.
4) MT didn't have junior and senior years. And no, I don't think he played 15 "preseason games" his junior year at Northwestern. If you don't even know the guy played 16 games and not two season, just, be quiet, and watch. You don't always have to embarrass yourself.
5) "Do we need to go into MTs Sr year?"
No Hdhntr, we don't. Because he didn't HAVE one. But keep posting.
6) Ben Johnson rode the pine as a FIFTH YEAR SENIOR for the 10th place team out of 11.
7) And that DC was starting said that we were unable to hang on to Newman and BC was unable to get a viable replacement.
Right. I guess that 3 weeks after BC was hired and rosters were frozen wasn't enough time to replace the talent of David Newman.
8) That was also before PFs were a threat from 3.
WOW!
9) He really did not even shoot from there in his first two years and in his Sr. season when he took more shots from 3, he averaged 28%.
Yeah, that's the point. At his best he was TERRIBLE!
I know you only had a few posts and there's probably still more idiocy to be teased out of them, but I'll just leave it at this:
You think Tavaras Hardy was better than Shura, Coble and Vedran Vukusic.
Wow.
Peace out.
I love Hardy, but I think VV and Shurna were both better at the 4. And I agree that Luka and Olah were better than Jennings at the 5. There wasn't much here when BC got here and, much like when CCC got here, it didn't in any way fit what the new coach wanted to do. It was a different time in NU hoops history and NU fans should be grateful for how BC took us from point not-even-part-of-the-alphabet to point B.
But, it's silly to suggest that CCC is or should be on the hot seat any time soon. BC got lots of time to try to get us over the hump and I can't imagine why CCC wouldn't get a likewise long rope to make it happen. He hasn't even gotten close to the end of that rope and I hope he never does because he's too busy taking us from point B to point C and beyond.
But, it's silly to suggest that CCC is or should be on the hot seat any time soon. BC got lots of time to try to get us over the hump and I can't imagine why CCC wouldn't get a likewise long rope to make it happen. He hasn't even gotten close to the end of that rope and I hope he never does because he's too busy taking us from point B to point C and beyond.
I just caught up on this thread. Enlightening!
A few things:
- Jitim and, arguably, McCants were the only B1G-quality players BC inherited. (McCants was a terrible system fit - he thrived when he played in Bruce Pearl's 'pants on fire' offense, but that wouldn't happen at NU or, really, the Big Ten.)
- there are a lot of ways to lose credibility. One such way is to suggest that a player was a great player on the basis of half a season and a recruiting ranking.
- the assertion that Tavaras is a better player than Vukusic, Coble, Shurna, or even Swopshire is the most absurd assertion I've ever seen. I love T, but his claim to fame is being the best player on winless conference team.
- Georgetown makes the Dance with PO concepts. Oregon State did not. Herb Sendek's teams typically have not. Michigan and Beilein play a lot of Princeton style philosophies, but I think he's a mad scientist more than a PO acolyte. (Sendek is actually similar - a self-taught PO disciple.) I love the PO - and its 'threes and dunks' philosophy was ahead of its time - but it's a system designed to make inferior teams competitive. (I think it's significant that Georgetown basically never does anything in March.)
- as a follow up, depending on how well NU recruits - I love the across the board star ratings, but Mac remains the only great player CCC has recruited - the PO may, in fact, be the best style for NU to play. (I think CCC, in his perfect world, would play in the 50s like UVa does. Personally, I think a well-run slowdown Princeton offense with a 1-3-1 defense is more interesting than UVa's in the 50s pack line style with terrible isolation offense, but I like wins most.)
- Seriously, Winston Blake was a one-trick pony, and made 24% of his tricks as a senior. JB was skilless, though handsome. I did appreciate KON's recruiting philosophy - were gonna put a wall around Plano, and build from there. (Burke, Blake, Towne were all from the Metroplex, specifically Plano.)
- Luka's gesture at IU remains one of my favorite moments as a Wildcat fan. (I forget if it was a raise the roof or a lower the floor, but it was in a win at Assembly Hall.)
- I'm not optimistic about a tournament berth this year. I do hope that Law or Lindsey or Falzon or Brown or Benson or Rap show 'second fiddle' consistency. Mac is awesome, but even Allen Iverson couldn't win 1 on 5.
- I think CCC should get a decade.
- I don't think CCC is as good an interview as Fitz, but I've been away from Chicago for a while and the thickness of CCC's accent is off-putting to me. (Fitz has an accent best described as 'football coach'.)
- BC was fired at the right time. The plateau was on. The talent level was slipping.
- I think it was cool that Styre tried to bring facts into the pissing match portion of this thread.
ALL I WANT IS FOR NU TO WIN A LOT AND WIN IN THE NCAA TOURNAMENT, EVEN IF MY OPINIONS DIFFER FROM YOURS!!
A few things:
- Jitim and, arguably, McCants were the only B1G-quality players BC inherited. (McCants was a terrible system fit - he thrived when he played in Bruce Pearl's 'pants on fire' offense, but that wouldn't happen at NU or, really, the Big Ten.)
- there are a lot of ways to lose credibility. One such way is to suggest that a player was a great player on the basis of half a season and a recruiting ranking.
- the assertion that Tavaras is a better player than Vukusic, Coble, Shurna, or even Swopshire is the most absurd assertion I've ever seen. I love T, but his claim to fame is being the best player on winless conference team.
- Georgetown makes the Dance with PO concepts. Oregon State did not. Herb Sendek's teams typically have not. Michigan and Beilein play a lot of Princeton style philosophies, but I think he's a mad scientist more than a PO acolyte. (Sendek is actually similar - a self-taught PO disciple.) I love the PO - and its 'threes and dunks' philosophy was ahead of its time - but it's a system designed to make inferior teams competitive. (I think it's significant that Georgetown basically never does anything in March.)
- as a follow up, depending on how well NU recruits - I love the across the board star ratings, but Mac remains the only great player CCC has recruited - the PO may, in fact, be the best style for NU to play. (I think CCC, in his perfect world, would play in the 50s like UVa does. Personally, I think a well-run slowdown Princeton offense with a 1-3-1 defense is more interesting than UVa's in the 50s pack line style with terrible isolation offense, but I like wins most.)
- Seriously, Winston Blake was a one-trick pony, and made 24% of his tricks as a senior. JB was skilless, though handsome. I did appreciate KON's recruiting philosophy - were gonna put a wall around Plano, and build from there. (Burke, Blake, Towne were all from the Metroplex, specifically Plano.)
- Luka's gesture at IU remains one of my favorite moments as a Wildcat fan. (I forget if it was a raise the roof or a lower the floor, but it was in a win at Assembly Hall.)
- I'm not optimistic about a tournament berth this year. I do hope that Law or Lindsey or Falzon or Brown or Benson or Rap show 'second fiddle' consistency. Mac is awesome, but even Allen Iverson couldn't win 1 on 5.
- I think CCC should get a decade.
- I don't think CCC is as good an interview as Fitz, but I've been away from Chicago for a while and the thickness of CCC's accent is off-putting to me. (Fitz has an accent best described as 'football coach'.)
- BC was fired at the right time. The plateau was on. The talent level was slipping.
- I think it was cool that Styre tried to bring facts into the pissing match portion of this thread.
ALL I WANT IS FOR NU TO WIN A LOT AND WIN IN THE NCAA TOURNAMENT, EVEN IF MY OPINIONS DIFFER FROM YOURS!!
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Nice post, though I admit I've only watched NU basketball over the past 5 years and have no handle on the history of NU BB before 2010.
>dacoeite? I went running to Google and still am not sure what this means? Dacoit? As in Indian-Burman banditry? [seriously interested in 'new' words and their meaning]
>If you think Fitz gives a more honest, straight-forward interview than CCC, then I suggest you adjust your ears and listen again. CCC is a terrific interview. Fitz is oftentimes defensive and not fully candid. Fitz tosses out more coachspeak than CCC. To me, both coaches are easy to understand, but then I grew up in the Chicago area.
Hardy wasn't a Big1G player!? Uh huh...
Clearly you enjoy crapping all over KO recruits (Blake was "skillless"!!!? Nice. He wasn't great offensively, but he was better than average defensively). Don't forget your boy BC had a loooong list of his own recruits that "arguably" weren't even D1 players...
Re: daceoite - I got it corrected. I loved that moment! I've never been a Dan either.
Re: interviews - mostly just being silly there.
Fitz is a toolbox obviously, but CCC has the thicker Chi-cahhhhhh-go accent.
Good post. The best part was your use of the word "acolyte".
"...but Mac remains the only great player CCC has recruited..."
A true statement as of June 9, 2016 but not really a fair statement - Law was on a great trajectory until his injury, and it's too early to call for Falzon, Rap, and others.
Great post 320.
One point: no one said mt was s "great" player, the question was simply - was he better than Aaron Jennings.
There are a couple regular posters here who would take Jennings and hardy over any and every center and power forward of the entire bc era!
Too bad all the other B!g coaches don't share their eye for talent!
One point: no one said mt was s "great" player, the question was simply - was he better than Aaron Jennings.
There are a couple regular posters here who would take Jennings and hardy over any and every center and power forward of the entire bc era!
Too bad all the other B!g coaches don't share their eye for talent!
Mystic - appreciating what Carmody did for the program, and supporting Chris Collins, are not mutually exclusive attitudes. BC had a good run with limited resources, took the program about as far as could, and now hopefully Collins will get us to the next level. Onward and upward!
I give you a lot of credit for being confident and authoritative. Can't agree with some of what you wrote, though. Winston Blake certainly had a poor senior season. He shot 38% from 3-point range his junior year, though, and his advanced stats for that year (based on WS from the Sports Reference site) were probably in the top 10 or 15 of all of the players that Carmody coached at NU. Hardy also had a fine senior year from an advanced stat's perspective (better than Swopshire's shortened season) and his 12 and 6.4 (with a block and a steal a game) hold up pretty well against everyone other than VV and Shurna (who both should have played the 3 if we had guys to play the 4). And from a macro perspective, it's hard for me to believe that Carmody went 7 and 9 in the conference with one B1G quality player (who was not nearly the player he was in his junior and senior seasons) and VV playing limited minutes. That's quite a coaching job, considering he won 1 conference game in two seasons with a team full of his own recruits. I think that O'Neil left Carmody a decent core of players with absolutely no B1G quality depth. Carmody did a great job taking what he inherited and turning it into a competitive team. I am sure he would have loved to have had Hardy, Blake and even Jennings on some of his later teams.
"...but Mac remains the only great player CCC has recruited..."
I hate to be negative, but it strikes me as a bit premature to label BMac "a great player." I'm mean, we're talking about a player who hasn't even made third team all-conference at this stage in his career. Granted, he may grow into a "great player" before his career is over, but right now I'd say he's pretty good, definitely the best we got, but definitely not "great."
I hate to be negative, but it strikes me as a bit premature to label BMac "a great player." I'm mean, we're talking about a player who hasn't even made third team all-conference at this stage in his career. Granted, he may grow into a "great player" before his career is over, but right now I'd say he's pretty good, definitely the best we got, but definitely not "great."
First MT played two years at DUKE so his first year here would have been as a JR. And since he played in all of 13 games, many of them were likely in preseason. And the second year would have been his Sr year when he had his problems and made it into all of 3 games and averaged all of 1.7ppg, etc. Jennings Sr year, he averaged more PPG than MT did his Jr year. RPG similar but also blocks and assists and that was through 29 games including the entire BIG season. So yes, MT had both a reasonable 3rd or Jr year and a poor Sr season. http://www.foxsports.com/college-basketball/michael-thompson-2-player
Yes you are correct ind Brodys name. But I never said he played for BC, just another player (another PF by the way) that was part of the system and that BC was not able to get to stay so he gets put into the category of those other guys in the system that made the cupboard not so bare when BC first got to Evanston.
TH was the only legitimate PF that BC ever had on the roster. He never recruited one. And he was solid and consistent. He recruited plenty of wings including Shurna, Coble and VV that were all truly Small forwards and played that way. None of them rebounded as well as TH. So I stick by the statement that TH was the best PF that BC had during his tenure. By the way, he averaged more ppg and rpg than Olah as a Sr. and more than anyone on the current roster. His scoring worked up to a higher level as a sr than Olah and almost at the level of BMac this year, He was not recruited for his ability to shoot 3s but for his ability to work inside, provide rebounding and inside scoring which he did pretty effectively. That he was able to go from not making 3 pt shots as Frosh or Soph to getting to 28% from 3 as a Sr. is pretty respectable. By the way, it is higher than Olah averaged this year.)
Both were more small forwards than PFs. They played at the 4 position because we had no 4s. But a true PF is more of an inside position while the two of them (three if you count Coble) play more of their game on the outside like a 3. Not saying they were not great players for us/ Just that they were not PFs regardless of what number they supposedly occupied. Couls or should have a lineup of 1, 2/3, 2/3, 3 5 with no 4 because that is the way they played
No where did I say that TH was a better player than the others, I said that TH was the best PF we had and he played that role very well and not having a presence like him cost us over the years.. The others you listed were not power forwards but really small forward of which we had plenty. But true PFs they were not. We really never had a true PF after TH. None of them really played that well inside where a true PF makes his living.
As far as what was here that was BIG quality, at least TH, Jitim, Jennings and McCants were all worthy.
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Sorry but Luka and his 6.3 ppg (7.4 max) 4.7 rpg was not better. Olah eventually might have been but not under BC and likely if he had remained, he never would have been
The top PGs in the BIG were probably stronger than any other year I can remember. BMac has already set the single season record for assists as a Soph. Great might be an exaggeration but definitely solid. And no one that CCC has recruited has more than two years so very premature to rate him that way anyway.
The Princeton offense stuff was pretty good, right?
Re: B1G-quality, I think one thing that is unquantifiable is how much better Jitim made everyone. He was arguably three B1G players himself...
I'll grant Tavaras, but he never would've seen the court for top tier conference teams. His stats were more, 'well, there will be some points scored, so someone's got to score them,' (or, you know, rebounds). This is in the same way that Ben Johnson led a team in scoring, because a team's leading scorer can't be 'nobody'.
I do love NU hoops. What a painful and wonderful program to follow.
I loved Jitim. He got every loose ball, something we struggled with before and after he played. But I think you are still underestimating Blake's junior year. He wasn't a star by any stretch but he was definitely a very effective B1G player. 13.6 points and 4 rebounds a game are good stats from your 3. And he played pretty good defense as well. Hardy did a nice job as well on the defensive end. Like I said, you don't go 7 and 9 in the conference without any stars if you don't have 3 or 4 quality players. Jitim was good that year but he got a lot better in his last couple of years.
Remember there were more legitimate scoring options (Shurna, Crawford, Juice all overlapped several seasons) during Luka's era than Jennings. Also consider that AJ only averaged more than 6.1 points once (his senior year where he put up a strong 11 ppg). It's true that Mirk did only average 4.7 rebounds (5.7 max) per game, but Jennings was even worse (3.4 ; 4.6 max).
Aaron shot the three ball better, but Luka was the better passer of the two and it wasn't even close. He was also quite good at cutting/playing off the ball and understood spacing and flow of the PO, whereas Jennings would just hang around the top of the 3 point line most of the time. Both their defensive play was mediocre at best, although when Mirk was feeling it, he could be effective. Consistency was the biggest knock on Luka (making him absolutely maddening to watch on occasion), but all in all, pretty good for a guy who had only been playing basketball for a handful of years prior to attending NU.
Olah was clearly the best of the three. Although he did show some promise as a true feshman under Carmody, his development (as you and others noted) should be attributed to Collins and James tutelage. They did outstanding work with the big Romanian.
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I think it has been tough to make the Big 10 top three teams for a freshman and sophomore starter on a 10 or 11th place Big 10 team. Also, it is tough to make the all Big 10 team when competing against players from the top three Big 10 teams like Yogi Ferrell, Melo Trimble and college player of the year Denzell Valentine who played the PG this year. McIntosh has put together two very good and solid seasons for NU even though his production tailed off at end of the season. I think he could be an all big 10 selection behind Trimble this year and his senior season.
I think Falzon makes a big jump next season in development and am hopeful that Vic will make a big jump as our no. 2 and 3 guys on the team.
I think Falzon makes a big jump next season in development and am hopeful that Vic will make a big jump as our no. 2 and 3 guys on the team.
I agree with you about Falzon. It is hard to imagine anyone other than Law and Falzon being the second and third high scorers, Dererk would need to really polish his post skills to create his own shot and Sanjay, Tap, Ash and Scottie just too limited or inconsistent.
I agree that Olah became the best of the three. But not under BC. CCC and his coaching staff made Olah what he became and based on past history, I doubt he would have developed the same under BC. During his time with BC, he was pretty limited. So I cannot count him as the best center under BC. He became the best of the three but not while BC was coach.
The whole purpose of this was just to say that the cupboard was not bare when BC took over (as some would like us to think). Guys he inherited became the core of the team (just like a couple of BC recruits have been important to CC's teams so far). Was there depth? No (especially after the transfers) but there were some important core players that were BIG quality. And BC teams really never had any depth. So far that is a change we have seen with CCC.
The irony is that Aaron barely practiced that senior year, due to debilitating shin splints that lasted the entire season.
We are (and have been) saying the exact same thing in regards to Olah, so cool.
I tend to disagree about the "cupboard" thing. Perhaps, that's because I think of it differently.
Yes, there was some potential in the roster O'Neil left behind, but it was almost all in the freshman and sophomore classes (because KO's demeanor ran off so many players). If we're going to make argument Olah became what he was because Collins developed him, the same can be said of Carmody with the youngins he inherited. The difference I see is that in Collins case, he had upperclassman who had previously proven effective in the BIG - guys like Crawford, Cobb and Sobo (although Sobo was an awful fit). It wasn't only potential. CC also inherited future talent in Olah and Demps. Obviously, we're talking about Northwestern here (it's relative), but Collins has gone on record saying the Northwestern job was more appealing when he took over than in the past. There was a reason for that.
Yep.
There's no doubting Jennings toughness. Being a primary option on a team (along with Jitim) with a lot of underclassmen, it could have been an even bigger senior year for Aaron had he been healthy.
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