Where’s the presser? It’s time to see annoyed CC after the pounded 🪨 not having cracked. It’s Feb 2021 again.
The end of the Collins era
- Thread starter MC_Cat
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Maybe if we had a better coach we would win more instead of losing “close” games?
I don’t see him getting fired by Gragg, but it’s probably time.
Based on all the past history of it? You really think that NU is going to pay up for a big name successful established coach? Unless they overpaid greatly I can’t see any of those types wanting to come here.
There’s nothing wrong with hiring an exciting up and coming coach. You just have to be good at identifying the real ones vs the pretenders. There are plenty of guys out there who don’t have the collins brand name but would bring better coaching to our team.
And then we have to recruit and get "our" team admitted. Good F****** luck.
That's the point right there that I can't understand why more of you guys who know hoops on this board aren't hammering. He gets less out of more than any NU hoops coach in decades. I could not stand Carmody... but he got us to a few 20 win seasons with SO much less talent. CC clearly has recruited the best collective talent to NU of any hoops coach in our history. By far. But except for the early CC seasons, Carmody's teams won far more games.
Honestly I don't watch much NU basketball since things went south after the Dance year, but when I do, I see disorganized and lifeless offense, and more missed open shots than any P5 team should ever have... and its been the same for five years now.
What I can't understand is, it seems he has consistently brought in pretty good assistant coaches his entire time here. Why are most of our already very talented players not developing more?
Just venting here... I waited DECADES for our basketball team to bring in great recruits, and it just drives me nuts when we now get them, and they mostly drastically underperform as a group, and for years. I was SO excited when we hired Collins, and then after the Dance year... so disappointed ever since. Well, at least we have Fitz and the winning football team... wait, DOH!!!!
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So if we concede it is impossible for Collins or anyone to win at NU, why don’t we go back to a dirt floor arena, shut down the new practice facilities and petition for admission to the Great Lakes Conference? Why waste all these resources on a lost cause?
Because there are solid coaches looking to rebound from getting fired. I mentioned the other day that Cuonzo Martin looks likely to be let go by Missouri, despite getting them to the Tournmanent twice. He's taken each of the major conference programs he's coached to the Tournament, including a trip to the Sweet 16 with Tennessee. I don't think anyone would contend he is a great coach, but he is a good, solid coach who recruits well and knows the Big Ten, and is unlikely to get any other head coaching offers from major conference schools, at least ACC/Big Ten/SEC/Pac 12 schools. He would be a clear, clear step up from Collins in every aspect.
I don't think we should concede it, but Collins would be a better coach than he appears to be if he could get the players he needs to compete in the B1G. He may not be the greatest coach, but this is not all on him
I’m sorry I understand that winning at NU is damn hard but I have seen nothing over the last five years that indicates to me that Chris Collins can coach. Sure it’s not all on him, and as I’ve said repeatedly, if NU wants to live with an empty arena and the inability to recruit at even the level Collins has established, then by all means continue with the status quo — as more and more NU fans check out. I can’t bring myself to watch NU games anymore, just too painful and nonproductive. I have to believe I’m not alone. But if NU wants to continue down that path, by all means knock yourself out.
Couldn't agree more with every word you said. I've checked out.... I record the games, and then don't watch them... for the last couple years. "Too painful and nonproductive" to watch - exactly how I feel when I watch.
Bottom line; where is there any evidence at all that Chris Collins can coach a Big Ten team well?
We've all heard that definition of insanity
"Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result."
To me, that is Chris Collins in a nutshell.
But today I came up with a different definition of insanity...
Watching somebody do the same thing over and over and expecting him to do something different.
And unfortunately that describes me in a nutshell.
In other words, Chris Collins has driven me insane.
"Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result."
To me, that is Chris Collins in a nutshell.
But today I came up with a different definition of insanity...
Watching somebody do the same thing over and over and expecting him to do something different.
And unfortunately that describes me in a nutshell.
In other words, Chris Collins has driven me insane.
About a year ago, I said NU could go two ways (not mutually exclusive) to have a chance with a coach considering it’s history and recruiting limitations. One would be to copy Wisconsin 20 years ago and find a coach that emphasizes strong interior team defense and player development, playing a slow, physical game with players who are not top 100 recruits and build over three or four years. The other is a player who can recruit internationally and emphasizes defense. If you are looking for a name, I would suggest Todd Golden of University of San Francisco. The Dons are currently rated 33 NET as a mid major. 7 players on his roster are European or Australian. He played at St. Mary’s, which is the poster child for the international model under Randy Bennett. St. Mary’s and USF play sound, disciplined basketball.
Collins was a brilliant hire due to his name and Duke pedigree, which gave him a credible chance to get some players. Unfortunately, he wasn’t able to build on the good year he had, and it really is time to try something different.
Collins was a brilliant hire due to his name and Duke pedigree, which gave him a credible chance to get some players. Unfortunately, he wasn’t able to build on the good year he had, and it really is time to try something different.
Yep, I posted about all of those games on the Other Sports Board and watched the Clemson game on the ACCN. Today the ladies take on 7th ranked Oklahoma State at 9:30 EST. Check it out.
A) any successful coach making significantly less than Collins B) sadly the last 22 years are the most successful 2 decades+ since Dutch Lonborg.
We NU fans are a patient lot. You can suck, but can no longer sustain suck. I think most of us could live with suck, then .500, then NIT with NCAA once every decade. It's the year after year sucking we can no longer tolerate
Maybe that’s the role that suits him best. Look I get why NU took a shot with him. Local kid, the family name, Duke ties, etc. But it’s always a bit of a shot in the dark when you give a guy his first head coaching job. I’ve been surprised at his lack of development as a head coach. Seems like the same guy we hired 8 years ago or whatever.
I think we’d be better off looking for a guy with a proven track record at a smaller school who is looking for the bigger stage. Sort of like Rutgers and Steve Pikiell. Established himself at Stony Brook and then moved up.
Exactly. Find a guy who has an overall plan and style, has had success at lower levels and give him a shot on the bigger stage
After all these seasons of CC I still have no idea what his overall program style is meant to be- I mean is there anything we are known for other than maybe bad shot selection?
He’s getting pretty consistent at being able to grind out close losses
Possibly the same type of players that averaged 18 wins a year for the 10 year period ending after the Allstate year? I'm tired of those of you cuffing the admissions department around the face and head. Very few of us are asking for one-and-done players. We had 10 years if moderate success. Just...do that.
Using admissions as a punching bag just gives Collins cover. Allegedly, he's had our best recruiting classes ever and had 2 good years, and is trending poorly.
Further, unless you (all) mean inbound transfer admissions as the primary difficulty, the NIL and Portal partially neutralize the recruitment admissions issue. I have no confidence that CCC could turn around a team abruptly with a couple of high level recruits, and said recruits would bail like Brandon Joseph if the team struggled (now I sound like those guys that say "who would coach here?!?!)
This was my apprehension about Collins from the word go. And unfortunately, it proved true.
No more guys without head coaching experience!
If I'm the AD, I only want to talk to guys with head coaching experience as well as experience at any level in a P6 program. The P6 experience is because it took Carmody too long to understand what he didn't know.
Lastly - and none of us have any way of knowing this - please no more offense first guys. I think CC and Carmody strongly leaned to that side of the game.
Obviously, the coach needs to work well on both sides of the ball. But with the probable talent gap between NU and the B10, I think the way to be consistent is to start with strong fundamentals and an emphasis on defense. I dont think either CC or Carmody had that.
I often find your posts on point, but not here.
How is it that Collins coached us to the NCAAs but cannot coach now? I don’t think that’s some “proof” of your position. Please explain, and don’t credit Baldwin, as we’ve seen him in action on his own and it ain’t pretty.
I think Collins tries hard to find good defensive players and really does value defense. Recruits like Pardon, Law, Skelly, Ash, Gaines, Roper, Simmons. He desperately wants to play man-to-man but his guys just can’t handle it, hence all of the problems with help defense. (Not sure why they can’t handle zone better, to be honest, but that’s another story).
The issue is that he can’t find many guys with both offensive and defensive talent. And if I’m him, I’d probably take defense first, as he typically does.
Ultimately, he wants to give these guys as much offensive confidence as possible in his pro-style, fast-paced system. But he can’t find the talent to make it succeed, and certainly not consistently (as I’ve said many times).
Good luck trying with a new coach who can create a different system and attract top-notch recruits on par with other teams. But of course, if he loses the team from yesterday on out, that’s reason enough to look elsewhere at this point.
(To Gato and others who thought our talent level was better than Minnesota (and Penn State and Maryland’s) - that’s just not looking very accurate).
Great post. While I do not have much of an opinion on Todd Golden, it exemplifies how ludicrous the idea of “who else could we get“ is. There are plenty of names to explore. Plenty. I’m not defending any names, but I’ll list a few worth a look. Again, not advocating for any, just saying they are due diligence worthy:
-Niko Medved
-Leon Rice
-Jeff Linder
-Scott Naggy
-Dennis Gates
-Matt McMahon
-Casey Alexander
-John Becker
-Eric Henderson
-Eric Konkol
-Grant McCasland
-Nick McDevitt
-Mike Rhoades
-Mark Schmidt
-Scott Davenport
Anyone sitting on Wisconsin’s bench.
Again, not advocating any of these names are the right one. Just that they’re worth a look, like I’m sure several others would. Craig Smith was a hot name last year and, as I followed Utah State, I was able to form an opinion I would be very skeptical of hiring him.
What basketball or NU knowledge do you need to conclude CC is not a good coach? None. All you need is to look at the results. NU specificities or not, results are not acceptable at any of the 357 programs in D1 basketball. If they are it’s not a program, it’s a rec center.
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I too believe you could interest just about all of these names. I am not sure that these are names that would excite the masses. Let’s be honest, I doubt there are more than a couple people who have even heard of these coaches. I certainly, can’t identify where they all are without a google search. Doesn’t mean they don’t know how to Coach. Fans aren’t flocking to the new WR with these names. How many of the posters that have “checked out” actually show up to the games or support the program in any way other that a BTV subscription? It is by far the worst atmosphere in the conference for players. I-L-L I-N-I , Go Green, Go White, Let’s go Boilers. Maybe figure a way to get the students in the best seats close to mid court like Illinois, Michigan and MSU.
At the end of the day, NU still is plagued with the same institutional challenges that many casually recognize when calling for a new Coach. Basketball History, Fan Support, campus culture, and of course, admissions. A Facilities edge is a fallacy. Just because they are no longer embarrassing doesn’t mean it is a recruiting bonanza. A new Coach would likely give a short term jolt of energy, but unless these other obstacles are addressed, we will be back here again like we always are.
NU basketball is like a poorly run business that changes CEO’s all the time but never addresses the systemic issues that causes the majority of the angst.
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Iowa fans were bummed about Fran McCaffrey for one or two seasons, and then he started winning games and making ncaa tournaments.
Boring guy with a *pretty good* record of winning at three prior stops. (Boring until he has a tantrum, anyway.)
The name ‘Collins’ probably sold 100 tickets. Many more have been lost with the , uh, losses.
Yes Sir. I couldn't care less who the coach is (famous or no-name). If he wins, I'd be at W-R to watch NU.
I agree with everything you said. Everything. 100%. I love the idea of moving the students. They are the only source of atmosphere. Hire Gates and call the section the gates of hell.
Personally I could not care if any coach would excite the masses. Win and they will come. Outside big time programs that’s the norm anyway.
We can win a lot and still see opponents taking over the WR. It’s Chicago after all. But I definitely cringed with how loud Let’s go Boilers sounded.
The structural problems will still be there. I know that. The facilities are not necessarily an advantage against most recruiting competition. But they are against some competition and at least they are not a disadvantage against most. That’s progress that might not represent a huge leap in recruitment, but represents a leap regardless. I can’t imagine a world where we do not get one more decent recruit every other year than we would with the old WR.
Addressing the structural problems in on the institution. I’ve voiced my opinions on that and think they could and should be addressed. But that is, for me, beyond the point. Regardless, we gotta try to maximize what we have.
I’m not going to get into the discussion if our players are, or not, as good as believe they are. I know we disagree on that. Neither i am getting, in this post at least, into the discussion of whether CC needs to go. My point is that I don’t believe the idea of “who else could we get” as a reason to hold on to CC. Or any coach for that matter.
And I do not believe CC is going anywhere, at least not before the end of next season.
I never thought I would be saying this, but the Students are the only thing saving the basketball environment. Players win games- you need top players. If I am a top 50-100 recruit, there is no way I am signing on to take my talents to NU. No way, until there is a commitment to care about winning. I mean a commitment from the school, not Pat Ryan. WTF do any of us want to go to a home game, cheer for the Cats, and be subject to heckled because you are outnumbered 5 to 1. It is an embarrassment. All the fair weather fans that are going to return with wins. Laughable, because the systemic issues make consistent winning impossible. It’s the classic chicken and the egg.
That one NCAA trip was probably an outlier based on the data. Maybe that collection of talent was able to overcome his coaching deficiencies? Maybe it was just a magic year? He had basically the same group back the next year with another year of experience and it wasn’t very pretty.
He seems to want to run things that takes a lot of above average players and it doesn’t match our roster.
Winning means having an edge. It means having some advantage your opponent does not. If you look at NU, we will never have a consistent talent advantage or home game environment advantage. That means the only thing left is a system and coaching advantage. Kind of like that year Wisconsin beat Arizona, who had four NBA players, in the NCAA tournament. So like it or not, NU is going to have to find a unique coach with an idenfiable system who can recruit niche players to that system and win close games against better talent. Consistently. Easy to do? Nope. But the alternative is more of same.
I posted upthread, but one model to look at is St. Mary’s in the Bay Area. They play in a 3,500 seat gym, compete in a mid-major, are at best the third team in the Bay Area, and consistently registered single digit win seasons as recently as 20 years ago.
They are currently ranked 20th in NET rankings, and have been a consistent top 40 team the last 10 years.
Randy Bennet built the team on international recruiting, deliberate offense, coordinated strong interior defense and sound fundamentals.
I suggested USF’s coach as a possible target, in part because he played there.
Even if NU did not go for someone with a St. Mary’s pedigree, I think Collins or his successor would be smart to hire one of the Cats’ alums who played professionally in Europe and use him to build a recruiting network there. We will consistently be limited and fall short in U.S. recruiting. Strategically targeting international sources is a no brainer to me. Of course, I think a head coach who essentially plays Euro-ball would help with that.
This is a very good post, but I take issue with your final conclusion. We don’t change CEO’s “all the time.” We have had two coaches in the last 20 years. We provide tremendous job stability and latitude to the “CEOs” to figure it out. We’ve stayed the course far longer than any other peer institution would have done given the results of the last five years.
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Providence is currently ranked #8 in the country and we lost to them by five points. We beat Michigan State on the road and beat Rutgers. There is talent on this roster, but there’s an issue with consistency/coaching.
You are right. The point I was trying to make, is more than just the leadership needs to be addressed to right the ship.
Think about what believing our talent is bad means. It means all those close games against IL, wins against Rutgers and MSU, were a big over achievement. Made possible by a master tactician on the bench. It also means that said master tactician in essence sucks at recruiting as even with such superb coaching the talent is still 3rd worst in the league. Ultimately arriving at the same conclusion, our guy on the bench can’t handle it.
The twists and turns the mind does to come up with for some good old confirmation bias.
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I think we actually already tried a similar approach with Carmody. TJ Parker, Hachad, Vedran Vukusic, Luka Mirkovic, Ivan Tolic etc were all foreign born players. St. Mary's caught lightening in a bottle with Patty Mills.
Sorry, but St. Mary’s has had a bunch of key contributors from abroad, not just Mills. Carmody did ok with the foreign players, but did not have the deep connections to go all in. Again, USF has 7 foreign players currently on scholarship. That is pretty close to all in.
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