Vassar's allegations

[Sec.112]

Work-study isn't supposed to include landscaping jobs. It's supposed to help students mitigate the cost of attendance by providing students with work opportunities related to academic majors/interests. Of course, NU, like many other schools, skirts these requirements through the "less desirable" jobs you describe, but those jobs are not supposed to be work-study jobs.

But the complaint states outright that other positions were available and NU refused to allow him into any of those jobs. I don't know what the "Wildcat Internship Program" is - and Googling the phrase only brings up this complaint, so if it does exist, it exists under a different name - but "internships" should not involve picking up trash and leaves. The university should not be using unpaid student labor for tasks like that when they could be paying actual workers.

I get the feeling a fact may be lost in the conversation.

On page 22 of the complaint, it's described that Vassar requested an NU committee hearing after the timecard fiasco (under crappy conditions set by NU I may add - no lawyer allowed - how scummy). Anyhow, he won.

The Committee chose "'to administer the granting of the aid in a different manner than usual due to the unusual circumstances presented in this appeal.' In doing so, the Committee recognized that Johnnie 'had not come to Northwestern with the expectation that you would be doing maintenance work' and confirmed 'that it was very awkward for [Johnnie] to be at work while other student athletes were coming for practice.'"

I'm not providing this as an excuse for NU or to say the timecards shouldn't be investigated. It just seems this fact is missing in some of the previous conclusions.

Granted, this takes JV away from the athletic scholarship and some of those perks. That's supposedly some of the damages.

 

[Styre]

To go back to the original point of Collins bashing, want to make a bet on whether Collins was involved with the job or the time cards?

Not unless you're betting that he was.

If he even made a phone call to inquire about anything regarding the "work study," I might fire him. It's too stupid and he should know better than to get involved at that level.

Yeah. Programs deliberately keep their head coaches insulated from decisions on that level, so that if problems arise the coach is protected. There's no way (I hope!) that Mike Krzyzewski's former right-hand man would be stupid enough to get directly involved at that level, whether or not NU's actions were permissible.

 

[Styre]

I get the feeling a fact may be lost in the conversation.

On page 22 of the complaint, it's described that Vassar requested an NU committee hearing after the timecard fiasco (under crappy conditions set by NU I may add - no lawyer allowed - how scummy). Anyhow, he won.

Yeah, you're making a good point here. Would be interesting to hear more about the committee hearing and the arguments on both sides.

 

[mikewebb68]

I think this is exactly what a lot of people feared when we fired BC,

Kevin Coble says hello.

 

[hdhntr1]

I already went down this road on another site, so I'll try to keep it short. However, let's make sure we understand the true facts of NU's history with players before we say this is a complete change for NU. I dare anyone to find me another program where so many players "left the team" but stayed in school as they did during the BC era - a complete oddity in college basketball, but somehow it was petty normal during the BC era. How about the several who completely "quit the sport?" Another basketball oddity. Sure, it had nothing to do with coaching in the past.

But that is always conveniently ignored as well as the list of players shown the door - especially at the beginning of the BC regime (which happens everywhere but some want to make it "a thing.")

It's so obvious there are many of the CBC acolytes turning this into another excuse to bash CCC.

Maybe that was because BC recruited quite a few guys that were marginal players that no one else really wanted so when they couldn't make it as players here....Staying in school was their best option.

 

[hdhntr1]

Running players off the team is one thing - it makes a mockery of the idea of the "student-athlete," of course, but that hasn't been a legit concept in decades. It's incredibly common throughout college basketball and happened here under previous coaches, as you say. I accept this as the cost of doing business. (Not all of the methods, though. Humiliating a 19 year old by making him do manual labor in front of his teammates shouldn't be acceptable, though of course we don't have all of the context here.)

Acts of fraud intended to create justifications for pulling a scholarship, on the other hand, are both illegal and unacceptable. If the time card story is true, everyone involved with it should lose their jobs. The same would be true if BC was still the coach.

I cleaned toilets and worse to pay for school. He is getting about a 75k scholarship and they ask him to do a little manual labor and that is out of bounds? Give me a break.

 

[hdhntr1]

Work-study isn't supposed to include landscaping jobs. It's supposed to help students mitigate the cost of attendance by providing students with work opportunities related to academic majors/interests. Of course, NU, like many other schools, skirts these requirements through the "less desirable" jobs you describe, but those jobs are not supposed to be work-study jobs.



There's nothing wrong with manual labor! It's vital work and we should do right by our laborers. But the complaint states outright that other positions were available and NU refused to allow him into any of those jobs. I don't know what the "Wildcat Internship Program" is - and Googling the phrase only brings up this complaint, so if it does exist, it exists under a different name - but "internships" should not involve picking up trash and leaves. The university should not be using unpaid student labor for tasks like that when they could be paying actual workers.

As difficult as he has been, why should they have to coddle him? If the work needed to be done ...

 

[MysticCat]

Maybe that was because BC recruited quite a few guys that were marginal players that no one else really wanted so when they couldn't make it as players here....Staying in school was their best option.

Can somebody name some of the "so many" players that left the team but stayed at NU?

 

[mikewebb68]

Work-study isn't supposed to include landscaping jobs. It's supposed to help students mitigate the cost of attendance by providing students with work opportunities related to academic majors/interests. Of course, NU, like many other schools, skirts these requirements through the "less desirable" jobs you describe, but those jobs are not supposed to be work-study jobs.



There's nothing wrong with manual labor! It's vital work and we should do right by our laborers. But the complaint states outright that other positions were available and NU refused to allow him into any of those jobs. I don't know what the "Wildcat Internship Program" is - and Googling the phrase only brings up this complaint, so if it does exist, it exists under a different name - but "internships" should not involve picking up trash and leaves. The university should not be using unpaid student labor for tasks like that when they could be paying actual workers.

Maybe things have changed since the 80's but in four years my work-study jobs had precisely zero to do with my major. Worked as an attendant at Patten Gym, the Evanston YMCA (???) and as an intramural sports official....

 

[mikewebb68]

Can somebody name some of the "so many" players that left the team but stayed at NU?

Don't believe Kevin Coble left. If I am correct on that one and gave it 5 seconds of thought, I would imagine there are many others.

 

[FitzFan]

Don't believe Kevin Coble left. If I am correct on that one and gave it 5 seconds of thought, I would imagine there are many others.

Turner
Vassar
Coble
Segura

At least those are the players I can remember from the last 8 years or so. Should note that Segura was a walk-on. I would agree that there are probably others.

 

[MysticCat]

Turner
Vassar
Coble
Segura

At least those are the players I can remember from the last 8 years or so. Should note that Segura was a walk-on. I would agree that there are probably others.

1-4 Fitz.

Under bc was the statement made by 112 and hdhtr.

I suppose no one other than us wanted Kevin Coble senior year, career ending injury and all.

 

[FitzFan]

1-4 Fitz.

Under bc was the statement made by 112 and hdhtr.

I suppose no one other than us wanted Kevin Coble senior year, career ending injury and all.

Please cut the sass. I was responding indirectly to your comment below, which did not specify.

Can somebody name some of the "so many" players that left the team but stayed at NU?

But yes, if I had the time to go back and look at the team rosters from early 2000's I'm fairly confident I could find a player that left the team but stayed in school.

 

[Styre]

I cleaned toilets and worse to pay for school. He is getting about a 75k scholarship and they ask him to do a little manual labor and that is out of bounds? Give me a break.

There's nothing wrong with doing manual labor if that's what you sign up for. Work-study jobs and internships are not supposed to be manual labor.

Maybe things have changed since the 80's but in four years my work-study jobs had precisely zero to do with my major. Worked as an attendant at Patten Gym, the Evanston YMCA (???) and as an intramural sports official....

Yeah, it was the same thing when I was in school in the early 2000s - dorm security monitors, intramural officials, etc. Some of those jobs are great, but those jobs are not what work-study is supposed to be. It's an easy way for NU to save money on labor costs, though.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

I also thought the Inside NU column was dumb and a ham-handed attempt at criticizing a system that actually deserves plenty of criticism. Calling Vassar the recruit that epitomizes Collins' tenure? Come on. That said, student writers are students who are paying full freight to attend NU and get better at journalism, and most on this board wouldn't personally attack student-athletes in some of the terms seen here. Some dispensation may be in order. (My username gives away my sympathies.)

I don't frequent the b ball board, but the "journalism" some of those youngsters spit out is crapola with a capital C . The culture article was conjecture not supported with evidence. I respect they are young ins learning, but you have to be held accountable and a few of these kids are as thin skinned as they come. I for one was thrilled a few people called them out for that caca they spewed.

At least that site is good to post pics of the uniforms and two deep in football.

 

[YesterdaysCat]

I couldn't care less about the case. I am disappointed that Collins is just like all of the other scumbags.

I don't think that Coach is a "scumbag." He is merely doing what it takes to win. If that makes him a scumbag, then most winners are.

 

[YesterdaysCat]

The Committee chose "'to administer the granting of the aid in a different manner than usual due to the unusual circumstances presented in this appeal.' In doing so, the Committee recognized that Johnnie 'had not come to Northwestern with the expectation that you would be doing maintenance work' and confirmed 'that it was very awkward for [Johnnie] to be at work while other student athletes were coming for practice.'"

Awkward it was and intentional.

 

[YesterdaysCat]

Please cut the sass. I was responding indirectly to your comment below, which did not specify.



But yes, if I had the time to go back and look at the team rosters from early 2000's I'm fairly confident I could find a player that left the team but stayed in school.

Under Carmody not too many on scholarship who stayed after leaving the team. We had walkons who departed, guys who were booted, and Coble, who gets his own category. I don't think that Parker or Maley stayed at all after leaving the team.

 

[YesterdaysCat]

Turner
Vassar
Coble
Segura

At least those are the players I can remember from the last 8 years or so. Should note that Segura was a walk-on. I would agree that there are probably others.

Well yeah and walkons like Nichols and Jimenez quit.

 

[YesterdaysCat]

I cleaned toilets and worse to pay for school. He is getting about a 75k scholarship and they ask him to do a little manual labor and that is out of bounds? Give me a break.

The point is that they assigned him that work to punish, humiliate and intimidate. If you were a work study student assigned to clean tables at Norris or bathrooms in Tech, you could always quit that job. I don't think that Johnnie had a choice.

 

[mikewebb68]

1-4 Fitz.

Under bc was the statement made by 112 and hdhtr.

I suppose no one other than us wanted Kevin Coble senior year, career ending injury and all.

Love your revisionist history on Coble. Since I came up with him in all of 5 seconds, I figured there were others, and I was correct (and these only go back to 2007, the earliest year for which I could find rosters on the nusports website)

Players that meet MysticCat's criteria, left team under Coach Camody but stayed at NU (2007-12 only):

Kevin Coble
Jean-Marc Melchior-- stayed at NU and graduated early
Mike Thompson (the center) -- stayed at NU and graduated
Bernard Cote-- stayed at NU and graduated rather than stay on as a 5th year senior
Austin Nichols-- stayed at NU and graduated

So that is 5 that I found in five seasons under Carmody (didn't count 2012-13, since any players who left the team would have done so under Collins). Would imagine that there are more.

 

[mikewebb68]

Well yeah and walkons like Nichols and Jimenez quit.

Didn't count Jimenez in my analysis since he was on the roster for 2012-13 (Carmody's final season), but I believe you may be correct that he quit before Collins arrived.

 

[Sec.112]

Kevin Coble
Jean-Marc Melchior-- stayed at NU and graduated early
Mike Thompson (the center) -- stayed at NU and graduated
Bernard Cote-- stayed at NU and graduated rather than stay on as a 5th year senior
Austin Nichols-- stayed at NU and graduated

Those are the four I had. I'm not sure Nichols counts since he was a walk-on.

If we want to get official Cortez also graduated, but I understand there were juuuuuuust a few problems there.

Like I said, I'd love to see an example of a program with a similar track record.

 

[lunker35]

Running players off the team is one thing - it makes a mockery of the idea of the "student-athlete," of course, but that hasn't been a legit concept in decades. It's incredibly common throughout college basketball and happened here under previous coaches, as you say. I accept this as the cost of doing business. (Not all of the methods, though. Humiliating a 19 year old by making him do manual labor in front of his teammates shouldn't be acceptable, though of course we don't have all of the context here.)

Acts of fraud intended to create justifications for pulling a scholarship, on the other hand, are both illegal and unacceptable. If the time card story is true, everyone involved with it should lose their jobs. The same would be true if BC was still the coach.

You do realize that this happens in every sport and sometimes it's just not the right fit. You spend countless hours with the players and coaches and when a guy doesn't fit sometimes it's time to move on. We had plenty of these guys on the baseball team. The coaches are there to win and not be your lovable best friend. Many times they drive you into the ground and if you can't take it then maybe sports just aren't right for you. So many of you who are up in arms are the exact reason we have had decades of incompetence. He's doing his job and doing it well. This JV case is sour grapes and if we want to win we are not going to please every kid that comes here.

 

[Styre]

You do realize that this happens in every sport and sometimes it's just not the right fit. You spend countless hours with the players and coaches and when a guy doesn't fit sometimes it's time to move on. We had plenty of these guys on the baseball team. The coaches are there to win and not be your lovable best friend. Many times they drive you into the ground and if you can't take it then maybe sports just aren't right for you. So many of you who are up in arms are the exact reason we have had decades of incompetence. He's doing his job and doing it well. This JV case is sour grapes and if we want to win we are not going to please every kid that comes here.

Did you actually read the post you responded to?

 

[Alaskawildkat]

As difficult as he has been, why should they have to coddle him? If the work needed to be done ...

Maybe things have changed since the 80's but in four years my work-study jobs had precisely zero to do with my major. Worked as an attendant at Patten Gym, the Evanston YMCA (???) and as an intramural sports official....

Does anyone know exactly what the "manual labor" was? My first job at Northwestern was helping out the custodial staff waxing the floors in Sargent Hall before classes started. I just did that to kill time as I had arrived on campus a few weeks early. As part of my scholarship package once school started I spent some time each week busing tables at Elder. Neither of those jobs would I consider to be "manual labor" similar to the job I had harvesting sea lions on a remote island in Alaska earlier in the summer or on a summer break assigned to a forest fire fighting crew. In my upperclass years I earned extra money by working in a shipping department and having a part time photography business - again hardly "manual labor."

I find it ironic that someone who lives by the standard of "no pain no gain" and is willing to hire a personal trainer would actually prefer sitting at a desk checking out books in a library rather than doing something physical for his campus "job" - especially after spending the requisite hours sitting at a desk to study for classes.

 

[Medill90]

I read his objection to doing work as arrogance. He's not going to do anything he didn't expect to do when he left home to come to NU. The work as described is not demeaning to the vast majority of the population (like 99%). Would parents of NU kids who are paying full boat sign their sons and daughters up for the same work in exchange for the same package. The line would run down Sheridan to the cemetery.

So there's a life lesson here that he's not getting which would make him a better person which is too bad.

With that said, if the accusation that he was denied other open positions is true that's a major problem.

If true that would mean that some administrators may have understood he felt demeaned by the work and so conspired to keep him in it, as the complaint suggests. That's just fxxxxxg with the kid. He might be an arrogant, conceited prick, but that doesn't justify such treatment.

And that might be the sour grapes that compelled him to join the suit that he'll never see a dime from. You fxxx with me, I'll fxxx with you. That's not the lesson we want to give.

 

[lunker35]

Did you actually read the post you responded to?

Of course not

 

[Hungry Jack]

The point is that they assigned him that work to punish, humiliate and intimidate. If you were a work study student assigned to clean tables at Norris or bathrooms in Tech, you could always quit that job. I don't think that Johnnie had a choice.

The intent of these work assignments is pure speculation at this point. They might have been the only jobs available given the timing of his requests.

 

[Styre]

The intent of these work assignments is pure speculation at this point. They might have been the only jobs available given the timing of his requests.

The complaint specifically says that Vassar was told other positions were open but he wasn't allowed to have any of them. Doesn't mean that's the whole story or even that it's true, of course, but that's what it says.

 

[mikewebb68]

The complaint specifically says that Vassar was told other positions were open but he wasn't allowed to have any of them. Doesn't mean that's the whole story or even that it's true, of course, but that's what it says.

His version defies logic. If I know a kid is a potential litigant, why on earth would I tell him "other positions are open, but you're not permitted to take them?"

 

[YesterdaysCat]

The intent of these work assignments is pure speculation at this point. They might have been the only jobs available given the timing of his requests.

Whoa, you must wear purple morning, noon and night to believe that. Individually, all of the complaints can be explained away. The alleged buyout? A misunderstanding or Johnnie made it up. The job itself and the circumstances? "Only jobs available" is your theory. The timesheet fiasco? Was settled in Johnnie's favor.

Taken together and in sequence, and in conjunction with what else we know about the coaches and Johnnie not getting along, the events are very suspicious.

 

[YesterdaysCat]

His version defies logic. If I know a kid is a potential litigant, why on earth would I tell him "other positions are open, but you're not permitted to take them?"

Your defense of Alma Mater is admirable but you weren't there. Do you ever question the party line?

 

[mikewebb68]

Your defense of Alma Mater is admirable but you weren't there. Do you ever question the party line?

Do you believe everything you read in lawsuits?

 

[mikewebb68]

Whoa, you must wear purple morning, noon and night to believe that. Individually, all of the complaints can be explained away. The alleged buyout? A misunderstanding or Johnnie made it up. The job itself and the circumstances? "Only jobs available" is your theory. The timesheet fiasco? Was settled in Johnnie's favor.

Taken together and in sequence, and in conjunction with what else we know about the coaches and Johnnie not getting along, the events are very suspicious.

Assuming that our athletic staff possesses critical thinking skills, and they full well KNOW that a player is a potential litigant, why in the world would they take the actions that the plaintiff's attorney alleges they took? And, if they did, why in the world would Johnnie continue to attend the school? Heck, he could have sat out a year and transferred by now....

 

[YesterdaysCat]

Do you believe everything you read in lawsuits?

In other words, "yes, I mikewebb always believe in whatever my alma mater says."

 

[mikewebb68]

In other words, "yes, I mikewebb always believe in whatever my alma mater says."

How in the world can I believe or disbelieve what my alma mater says when I haven't gotten to actually hear what my alma mater says?

You do now how lawsuits work correct? The lawsuit is only the plaintiff's version of events. It could be 100% correct, partially correct, or complete nonsense. But see you have drawn your conclusion already. without facts, as usual.

 

[YesterdaysCat]

Assuming that our athletic staff possesses critical thinking skills, and they full well KNOW that a player is a potential litigant, why in the world would they take the actions that the plaintiff's attorney alleges they took? And, if they did, why in the world would Johnnie continue to attend the school? Heck, he could have sat out a year and transferred by now....

You have obviously never worked for NU if you believe that the athletic staff is so intelligent that they never make a mistake. History is filled to the brim with many intelligent people doing completely stupid things. Just look at Gary Hart. He dared the press to catch him -- and well, they did.

As for why Johnnie is in school, apparently you have no idea how bright he is and how tough he is. You're so blind with loyalty to NU that you don't see how or why a kid could get caught in Coach's cross hairs to free up a valuable scholarship.

Now, look, Coach is a good man. A lot of us have met him and we're convinced of it. I am. But, he's doing what has to be done to win here, even if he has to push out, what, 4 guys now? It's within the rules.

And Johnnie is a good man. Not a boy, but a man, and he's doing what has to be done to show that if NU is following the rules, then the system is terribly broken.

Like Johnnie or not, you have to respect his desire to earn an NU degree.

 

[mikewebb68]

You have obviously never worked for NU if you believe that the athletic staff is so intelligent that they never make a mistake. History is filled to the brim with many intelligent people doing completely stupid things. Just look at Gary Hart. He dared the press to catch him -- and well, they did.

As for why Johnnie is in school, apparently you have no idea how bright he is and how tough he is. You're so blind with loyalty to NU that you don't see how or why a kid could get caught in Coach's cross hairs to free up a valuable scholarship.

Now, look, Coach is a good man. A lot of us have met him and we're convinced of it. I am. But, he's doing what has to be done to win here, even if he has to push out, what, 4 guys now? It's within the rules.

And Johnnie is a good man. Not a boy, but a man, and he's doing what has to be done to show that if NU is following the rules, then the system is terribly broken.

Like Johnnie or not, you have to respect his desire to earn an NU degree.

If a school did such terrible things to me that I would even consider suing them, the last thing I would want to do is continue to attend that school.

 

[YesterdaysCat]

How in the world can I believe or disbelieve what my alma mater says when I haven't gotten to actually hear what my alma mater says?

You do now how lawsuits work correct? The lawsuit is only the plaintiff's version of events. It could be 100% correct, partially correct, or complete nonsense. But see you have drawn your conclusion already. without facts, as usual.

I have read hundreds of your posts and you always -- always -- stand up for the establishment, NU, its coaches, its players. Your loyalty is admirable, even if it's utterly blind to reality.

In reality, this is not so black and white. Northwestern may have followed the rules and then it's a question of what compliance means. The trail of bodies (Chier, Kale, Mike, Johnnie, Aaron, Nick) is such that we should at least consider the possibility that Coach is doing whatever necessary to mold his roster -- and we ought to consider whether or not his methods meet our standards, not just the NCAA's or a court of law's.