What Record Would Get Collins Fired?

[GatoLouco]

i think the combo of the arena and practice facility coming online (which the program hasn't had in a competitive format) and the remaining contract are the main factors. he'll get a chance to succeed on a level playing field (from facilities at least, not admissions still)

I appreciate the reply. And I appreciate the insights you bring. I surely have learned a lot about the program from you.

I am still on the side of those who believe we are better off with Collins than going out looking for a new coach. I still believe he is smart and will adapt. Of course one can feel this way and still be critical of the man.

I have a major beef with most everything but recruiting:
1) The offensive sets - Would be nice to see sets that put Nance or Kopp with the ball close to the basket.
2) The in game decisions - substitutions, changing on defense... Yesterday I just saw a team defending zone with great success, where players knew what they were doing, were dialed into an opponent, communicated. Ours shows guys standing around, often just guarding space while some other dude is covering 3 opponents. We got lucky with Providence. Something is wrong with the coaching, the teaching, the preparation of games
3) The feeling too many players get turned off by the coach and not confident. Felt it with Taylor last year. The Benson departure might have something to do with that. If your players have no confidence, you have a coaching problem

Again, I still believe he will adapt:
1) He will make different choices that might go against how he has viewed basketball all along
2) He will make better personnel choices and surround himself, or give enough leash to, people who can work on aspects of the game where they excel

If not, for me, by 21/22 it will be enough. We are better off rolling the dice. Recruiting improvement won't be enough. Good chance recruiting will be going downhill anyway. I know I'd have serious doubts on wanting to play for him if I were a player.

Or think about it like this: Providence game proved we have talent. Hard to imagine if we didn't we could win that game. The talent is there, raw and whatnot. If, by 21/22, we can't develop said talent to a consistent competitive level throughout a season, we do not have a coach.

 

[Sec.112]

OK, one message on the never-ending topic of Collins' dismissal and that's it for me.

I keep going back to the idea that many seem to forget: This is Northwestern. This is where hopeful careers go to die. It's not a prime gig.

The one thing the NU job has always had going for it is that the administration understands the difficult circumstances around admissions, and they are patient. They should be because they tie one arm of coaches behind their back.

You can't dump Collins three years after the tourney bid when he's part of the team that wakes up a sh*tty fan base enough to get a new arena and a new practice facility. That will make a sh*tty job sh*ttier, and coaches will notice.

With that said, the start of this season and the last couple seasons can't be ignored. Yes, they are young. Yes, there's some potential if you squint hard enough. But they are also unprepared for the season in several ways. For me, the worst is they don't have "that guy" - the experienced guy the kids can rely on to get a bucket in the middle of an 8-0 run. That guy doesn't need to be an All B10 superstar. He simply needs to be pretty good.

And there's no way Benson, Falzon, or Ash would have improved that situation. They were more of the same - another indictment on Collins.

So there's no rudder on the ship. And I'm just not sure an average program EVER enters a season like that.

That's just one of the signs.

The older I get, the more I believe you can see the coaches and managers who understand all those little details they need to win regularly. It's more than simply star players. It's the right guys in the locker room. It's filling roster spots with intangible guy who aren't great, but do those specific jobs that a coach understands he needs.

And then when the guy leaves who did the "intangibles," you find another guy who can do nearly the same thing because the winning coach knows exactly what is needed.

The college basketball version is finding that top-200 guy who will be a strong part of your mix for at least two years of their career ... the defender, the ball handler/leader, the shooter off the bench (oh, for a shooter!!).

I'm not sure Collins knows specifically what is needed and how to find/develop those one or two guys at a non-Duke level. You can convince me of Gaines. Anybody else? I think he simply tries to get the best, but doesn't understand the mix.

In the end, for me, the tourney bid means he's earned (key word) the right to see if he can develop this group. But a program can't be in a Bulls-like state of perpetual development. At some point, you need to win and be productive.

 

[NUCat320]

@Sec.112 Great post.

 

[GatoLouco]

I keep going back to the idea that many seem to forget: This is Northwestern. This is where hopeful careers go to die. It's not a prime gig.

Great post.

This quote... is exactly why no proven coach will pick up the phone. Because that has not changed. Yet at least.

I remember reading some story about Jim Calhoun considering Northwestern when he was at Northeastern. He said he called Bobby Knight and was advised to avoid it like the plague. And Calhoun was not even solidly "proven" at that time

That's why, at the end of the day, I loved and hated Carmody at the same time:
1) If the university accepted all we wanted was to not be embarrassing in the B1G, he got more out of his players than what was reasonably expect. Loved him for that
2) If the university wanted a prayer of making it to the tournament, it would take a miracle for it to happen on Carmody's watch. Hated him for that.

Collins has showed it can be different. And that was before shiny arenas and training centers.

 

[Medill90]

I think Benson, Ash and Falzon moving on are a reason that you have to give this team some leeway. It's not about the on court contribution, it's about culture and the locker room and their ability to translate to the new guys what Collins is all about.

Frankly, while it sucks to lose to these two teams, the season ahead is a complete unknown. The roster is so young and so new to NU that we can't possibly conceive what will happen. 10-15 games in they may start to get their sea legs, click and start beating good teams....because they are a talented, good team. Or it may crash. There's just no way to know.

On recruiting, there's every reason after seven years, to believe that Collins will keep doing what he's been doing....over perform.

On his status, he took NU to the tournament, won a game and came within a whistle or two of beating the #1 team in the country. Yes, that was two years ago. In NU sports time that would put it a few minutes after my first coffee this morning. Collins would have to show nothing for years upon years to get canned. It's just not going to happen. Question is, can those things legitimately pointed out be fixed? Have the last two coaching changes addressed those issues and it's now about wait and see?

 

[JournCat]

Great post.

This quote... is exactly why no proven coach will pick up the phone. Because that has not changed. Yet at least.

I remember reading some story about Jim Calhoun considering Northwestern when he was at Northeastern. He said he called Bobby Knight and was advised to avoid it like the plague. And Calhoun was not even solidly "proven" at that time

That's why, at the end of the day, I loved and hated Carmody at the same time:
1) If the university accepted all we wanted was to not be embarrassing in the B1G, he got more out of his players than what was reasonably expect. Loved him for that
2) If the university wanted a prayer of making it to the tournament, it would take a miracle for it to happen on Carmody's watch. Hated him for that.

Collins has showed it can be different. And that was before shiny arenas and training centers.

That anecdote about Calhoun was from 1986, according to this Skip story ... and by the way, a lot of Knight's predictions about who would always be good and bad were wrong:
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1991-12-05-9104190739-story.html

Were we to replace Collins, we would not get a call back from Billy Donovan or Brad Stevens, but how many programs would? With NU's money, facilities, and location, I'm certain we'd be able to hire a top assistant and/or a sitting mid-major head coach, like most power-conference schools. Porter Moser at Loyola would take the call and many others would.

 

[DaCat]

I keep going back to the idea that many seem to forget: This is Northwestern. This is where hopeful careers go to die. It's not a prime gig.

This used to be true years ago, but with the commitment to the program from Phillips and Morty, I don't think it's true anymore. As @JournCat says, we would definitely get interest if the head coaching job opened up. I'm not saying fire Collins yet, but he does need to demonstrate progress this season.

 

[IGNORE]

There is no record at which Collins could get fired by Phillips. Collins is his boy. It was his day one mission on the job when he was made AD. It took a couple of years to get Carmody out of the way but here we are. It would take Phillips leaving for Collins to get whacked.

Poorly performing BB and FB, a pissed off high level donor, obstinate AD that refuses to make changes, said donor threatening to change his will...maybe it's not McCall, PF and CCC that should be worried. Non revenue teams are no longer dominating anywhere in Evanston. Maybe there is a good reason the B1G passed on JP to be the next Commissioner.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

Poorly performing BB and FB, a pissed off high level donor, obstinate AD that refuses to make changes, said donor threatening to change his will...maybe it's not McCall, PF and CCC that should be worried. Non revenue teams are no longer dominating anywhere in Evanston. Maybe there is a good reason the B1G passed on JP to be the next Commissioner.

Congrats Bob, you have put every major player in NU athletics on the hit list. Is Amonte-Hiller next?

 

[Sec.112]

It's a big leap from taking the call from NU to signing on the dotted line.

There's also a huge difference between a prime gig and a job someone is interested in. How many jobs are worse than NU in the B10? Rutgers and ... arguably Nebraska and Penn State. That's not a prime job.

I have no doubt you could get 10 candidates pretty easily. But what kind of candidates are we talking? How many have head coaching experience in big conferences?Honestly, I'm not a huge believer in assistants for NU, and the assistants better have top program experience. Then we're talking mostly mid-major coaches.

Remember when half this board loved Dave Paulsen at Bucknell? Check out what he's done at George Mason.

As an aside, Phillips has said several times that CC was the only assistant who interviewed. I'd love to know who the other head coaches were.

 

[IGNORE]

Congrats Bob, you have put every major player in NU athletics on the hit list. Is Amonte-Hiller next?

Your welcome. I just wonder what the purpose of the AD is? I thought it was clean, competitive athletic programs. I mean, heck of a lot of money that a variety of NU departments would prefer directed elsewhere. All those departments have high graduation rates too.

So, if they are going to spend the money on these programs, shouldn't AD manage them for success? Or is the Washington Generals level of competition what NU strives for in excellence?

And before you tell me how much the B1G gives us for our participation, I will point out that they do not require us to spend it. Drop coaching salaries to match the expectations. Drop the scholarship program and re-direct to scholar-athlete scholarships and allow every varsity athlete compete for the pool of money.

Crazy? Yes. The is D1, P5, B1G athletics - arguably the premier in college athletics. This is NU a global leader in academic excellence that expands those demands of excellence beyond the classroom. So, build competitive programs without concern of expense (NU isn't hurting for dough, never has been). Start with the best and brightest coaching STAFFs - up and down. Spend the dough on top notch facilities that are regularly updated. Then bring in the talent and let the staff do their magic. (And I would agree that admissions needs to back off until a program becomes a problem - then fix the problem by firing the coach given too much discretion).

That's my position. I will not bury my head in the sand and backpat the graduation rates with the rest of you. It is beneath my alma mater and the standards they demand.

 

[NJCat]

Your welcome. I just wonder what the purpose of the AD is? I thought it was clean, competitive athletic programs. I mean, heck of a lot of money that a variety of NU departments would prefer directed elsewhere. All those departments have high graduation rates too.

So, if they are going to spend the money on these programs, shouldn't AD manage them for success? Or is the Washington Generals level of competition what NU strives for in excellence?

And before you tell me how much the B1G gives us for our participation, I will point out that they do not require us to spend it. Drop coaching salaries to match the expectations. Drop the scholarship program and re-direct to scholar-athlete scholarships and allow every varsity athlete compete for the pool of money.

Crazy? Yes. The is D1, P5, B1G athletics - arguably the premier in college athletics. This is NU a global leader in academic excellence that expands those demands of excellence beyond the classroom. So, build competitive programs without concern of expense (NU isn't hurting for dough, never has been). Start with the best and brightest coaching STAFFs - up and down. Spend the dough on top notch facilities that are regularly updated. Then bring in the talent and let the staff do their magic. (And I would agree that admissions needs to back off until a program becomes a problem - then fix the problem by firing the coach given too much discretion).

That's my position. I will not bury my head in the sand and backpat the graduation rates with the rest of you. It is beneath my alma mater and the standards they demand.

Hey Bob, you got this on your agenda?

 

[haywood jahblowme]

This used to be true years ago, but with the commitment to the program from Phillips and Morty, I don't think it's true anymore. As @JournCat says, we would definitely get interest if the head coaching job opened up. I'm not saying fire Collins yet, but he does need to demonstrate progress this season.

it is until admissions change.

Your welcome. I just wonder what the purpose of the AD is? I thought it was clean, competitive athletic programs. I mean, heck of a lot of money that a variety of NU departments would prefer directed elsewhere. All those departments have high graduation rates too.

So, if they are going to spend the money on these programs, shouldn't AD manage them for success? Or is the Washington Generals level of competition what NU strives for in excellence?

And before you tell me how much the B1G gives us for our participation, I will point out that they do not require us to spend it. Drop coaching salaries to match the expectations. Drop the scholarship program and re-direct to scholar-athlete scholarships and allow every varsity athlete compete for the pool of money.

Crazy? Yes. The is D1, P5, B1G athletics - arguably the premier in college athletics. This is NU a global leader in academic excellence that expands those demands of excellence beyond the classroom. So, build competitive programs without concern of expense (NU isn't hurting for dough, never has been). Start with the best and brightest coaching STAFFs - up and down. Spend the dough on top notch facilities that are regularly updated. Then bring in the talent and let the staff do their magic. (And I would agree that admissions needs to back off until a program becomes a problem - then fix the problem by firing the coach given too much discretion).

That's my position. I will not bury my head in the sand and backpat the graduation rates with the rest of you. It is beneath my alma mater and the standards they demand.

i agree on the graduation rates. lower admission standards and watch on-court/on-field excellence go up

 

[JournCat]

Remember when half this board loved Dave Paulsen at Bucknell? Check out what he's done at George Mason.

As an aside, Phillips has said several times that CC was the only assistant who interviewed. I'd love to know who the other head coaches were.

Among the widely reported candidates were Bryce Drew (since fired by Vanderbilt) and John Giannini (since departed LaSalle by mutual agreement). So ... point taken. The best outcome here is Collins makes it work.

 

[Sec.112]

... So ... point taken. The best outcome here is Collins makes it work.

That wasn't meant to be my point. A good fan just can't wave their hands and give up if they give a damn.

But on the other hand, it's not as easy at NU as some want to portray it.

Honestly, I would have been happy with a Drew. I might still take him. I'd bet he's one of those guys who does well at his next stop.

I also had a Greg Gard phase as well as the unrealistic hope that NU would jump on Bruce Weber when it was obvious the Illini panties were bunching up over his regular trips to the tourney.

But to be fair, I also had a Dan Dakich phase and some Ben Braun love.

 

[phatcat]

Two comments I have about some of the main tenets of some of the posts above.

1) for argument's sake, let's say we win 4 games next year and 5 the next. 'no proven coach will take us'. So what? How much worse can we be? We have a sparkling new gym, a great facility on the lake, a world-class university, and we would pay a LOT more than, say, an above average mid-major team would. No aspiring young coach would turn down a 400% pay raise and a chance to coach in the B1G. Or, let's say, not all of them would.
2) We talk about Benson et al leaving like 'oh well, they wouldn't have helped much, we need to focus on the kids'. What if we return to the days of good players e.g. Carlisle bolting at the first opportunity. Any guarantee Nance doesn't leave if he develops this year?

Repeating - VERY casual fan here, but our BBall community, even more than FBall, is like an abused wife or child. We feel we deserve it, and cannot do better.

Fitz is the best we can do because he is really a good coach and embodies all things NU. CCC? Not sure. Just because he has a pedigree doesn't mean he can be a good coach. The remaining doubt I have is not the tourney year, but they way the teams played in the years prior. CCC, get that spirit back, s'il vous plait.

 

[haywood jahblowme]

Two comments I have about some of the main tenets of some of the posts above.

1) for argument's sake, let's say we win 4 games next year and 5 the next. 'no proven coach will take us'. So what? How much worse can we be? We have a sparkling new gym, a great facility on the lake, a world-class university, and we would pay a LOT more than, say, an above average mid-major team would. No aspiring young coach would turn down a 400% pay raise and a chance to coach in the B1G. Or, let's say, not all of them would.
2) We talk about Benson et al leaving like 'oh well, they wouldn't have helped much, we need to focus on the kids'. What if we return to the days of good players e.g. Carlisle bolting at the first opportunity. Any guarantee Nance doesn't leave if he develops this year?

Repeating - VERY casual fan here, but our BBall community, even more than FBall, is like an abused wife or child. We feel we deserve it, and cannot do better.

Fitz is the best we can do because he is really a good coach and embodies all things NU. CCC? Not sure. Just because he has a pedigree doesn't mean he can be a good coach. The remaining doubt I have is not the tourney year, but they way the teams played in the years prior. CCC, get that spirit back, s'il vous plait.

getting Nance to the NBA is a big win for the kid and NU. Shows you can come to NU and still be a pro

 

[phatcat]

getting Nance to the NBA is a big win for the kid and NU. Shows you can come to NU and still be a pro

sorry I was talking about a transfer, not early NBA departure. our past is full of transfers.

 

[catsattackfor3]

Baldwin?

So if Collins wins 0 games in the B1G this year and lets say 4-6 overall would you can him to hire Baldwin with the promise his son comes here with him along with a few of his AAU teammates?

 

[Sec.112]

So if Collins wins 0 games in the B1G this year and lets say 4-6 overall would you can him to hire Baldwin with the promise his son comes here with him along with a few of his AAU teammates?

See the record of Pat Kennedy at DePaul for the lightning in a bottle approach to hiring and recruiting. And Kennedy actually had three future-NBA players in his first two recruiting classes.

EDIT: Having said that, I always thought Baldwin would make a really good coach. He's had some great success with several different programs as an assistant. I hope he proves himself in Milwaukee, but so far ...

 

[catsattackfor3]

Poorly performing BB and FB, a pissed off high level donor, obstinate AD that refuses to make changes, said donor threatening to change his will...maybe it's not McCall, PF and CCC that should be worried. Non revenue teams are no longer dominating anywhere in Evanston. Maybe there is a good reason the B1G passed on JP to be the next Commissioner.

Dr. Jim has done a lot of great things but.......he is reportedly the 2nd highest paid AD in the country behind only Swarbrick at ND. If his 2 flagship programs are a disaster that cannot bode well for him. He is not getting paid that kind of cabbage to be overseeing such a miserable product. Actually think the football teams horrible season saves Chris Collins a bit. If Fitz had the team around .500 with a chance at a Bowl game and then CC has a 4 win season it would be easier to justify making a move. But 2 disastrous seasons puts the heat on everyone.

On a side note this job would be very desirable with the facilities, B1G and money paid. A guy like Moser would take the call no question so would a bunch of successful mid major head coaches. It is a very good not great job

 

[catsattackfor3]

Poorly performing BB and FB, a pissed off high level donor, obstinate AD that refuses to make changes, said donor threatening to change his will...maybe it's not McCall, PF and CCC that should be worried. Non revenue teams are no longer dominating anywhere in Evanston. Maybe there is a good reason the B1G passed on JP to be the next Commissioner.

See the record of Pat Kennedy at DePaul for the lightning in a bottle approach to hiring and recruiting. And he actually had three future-NBA players in his first two recruiting classes.

That guy couldnt coach a lick from what I remember, teams were so undisciplined at everyone of his stops but he could recruit. Do not see the comparison really.

 

[phatcat]

That guy couldnt coach a lick from what I remember, teams were so undisciplined at everyone of his stops but he could recruit. Do not see the comparison really.

sounds...strangely...familiar

 

[NJCat]

sounds...strangely...familiar

So true!!!

 

[curdog]

It's a big leap from taking the call from NU to signing on the dotted line.

There's also a huge difference between a prime gig and a job someone is interested in. How many jobs are worse than NU in the B10? Rutgers and ... arguably Nebraska and Penn State. That's not a prime job.

I have no doubt you could get 10 candidates pretty easily. But what kind of candidates are we talking? How many have head coaching experience in big conferences?Honestly, I'm not a huge believer in assistants for NU, and the assistants better have top program experience. Then we're talking mostly mid-major coaches.

Remember when half this board loved Dave Paulsen at Bucknell? Check out what he's done at George Mason.

As an aside, Phillips has said several times that CC was the only assistant who interviewed. I'd love to know who the other head coaches were.

Our current coach had zero head coaching experience at any level. Learning on the job is not
conducive to success in the BIG.
If/when collins gets canned, the next coach needs to have head coaching experience. Another career assistant would be a bad move

 

[catsattackfor3]

I wonder how many years Ferentz has left.

I talked to a Hawkeyes fan today who was actually cheering for the Gophs over the weekend — cheering for the story and the excitement — because he’s bored of winning 7 to 11 games every year, and because he’s jealous of the energy that Matt Campbell has brought to Ames.

(sorry for the immediate threadjack )

Our current coach had zero head coaching experience at any level. Learning on the job is not
conducive to success in the BIG.
If/when collins gets canned, the next coach needs to have head coaching experience. Another career assistant would be a bad move

So true. The Big Ten is an awful place for a 1st time head coach without previous experience either as a head coach or with the league. Promoting from within has worked in the league (Izzo, Gard) but cannot think of others who were assistants elsewhere getting a head coaching job other than Collins and Howard.

 

[IGNORE]

Hey Bob, you got this on your agenda?

View embedded media

I stopped having interest in S&D after retiring. I got enough of it. The only diving I do anymore is to start a scuba class, I offer suicide or do some obnoxious somersault splash maker.

I didn't even go back to watching rugby (which I played varsity level in law school) until a few years ago. I dunno, it just doesn't interest me.

 

[Catreporter]

Might have been a little too early to bury CCC, given the 78-51 romp over a decent Bradley team (made finals of MVC Tourney last year) I stated how horrible our man defense was vs. Merrimack, but somebody must have coached them up since then.

 

[haywood jahblowme]

Might have been a little too early to bury CCC, given the 78-51 romp over a decent Bradley team (made finals of MVC Tourney last year) I stated how horrible our man defense was vs. Merrimack, but somebody must have coached them up since then.

this was my argument earlier in the week though - coaching or player pride/energy? both maybe?

 

[ricko654321]

it is until admissions change.


i agree on the graduation rates. lower admission standards and watch on-court/on-field excellence go up

Or don’t... seriously, this has been the case forever and was part of the deal when CC signed up. Using it as a crutch and whining about does not work. Sure it can inform the results, but we should not expect it to change. I don’t want it to anyways.

Btw, missed this thread earlier, I don’t think any overall record in itself this season is going to lead to getting rid of CC. He’s earned another year almost regardless of that. The only thing that could tip is if there are more transfers after this season, particularly of key pieces. The number he’s had thus far is a bit concerning, and if talent continues to flow outward along with it looking like the team has quit on him, that’s the only way you could preemptively make a move without giving him at least another season. As we’ve all said, this year was expected to be a rebuilding one.

 

[NUCat320]

this was my argument earlier in the week though - coaching or player pride/energy? both maybe?

Coaching and player energy are one and the same.

Whether it’s by bringing in the right guys, or by setting the right tone, your team’s attitude reflects on the culture created. And the culture cascades from the leadership.

 

[haywood jahblowme]

Coaching and player energy are one and the same.

Whether it’s by bringing in the right guys, or by setting the right tone, your team’s attitude reflects on the culture created. And the culture cascades from the leadership.

i disagree. its why football teams have "hype" squads to keep the "energy" on the sidelines. coaches scheme and set execution. players compete - and only the player can dictate what level of effort they are going to commit.

 

[haywood jahblowme]

Or don’t... seriously, this has been the case forever and was part of the deal when CC signed up. Using it as a crutch and whining about does not work. Sure it can inform the results, but we should not expect it to change. I don’t want it to anyways.

Btw, missed this thread earlier, I don’t think any overall record in itself this season is going to lead to getting rid of CC. He’s earned another year almost regardless of that. The only thing that could tip is if there are more transfers after this season, particularly of key pieces. The number he’s had thus far is a bit concerning, and if talent continues to flow outward along with it looking like the team has quit on him, that’s the only way you could preemptively make a move without giving him at least another season. As we’ve all said, this year was expected to be a rebuilding one.

i agree. but to complain that NU doesn't recruit at a high level when the competition doesn't have those standards is simply unfair. i agree that is who NU is - but then on the back end you have to realize thats who NU is

 

[ricko654321]

i agree. but to complain that NU doesn't recruit at a high level when the competition doesn't have those standards is simply unfair. i agree that is who NU is - but then on the back end you have to realize thats who NU is

My expectations are not for NU to compete for a B1G title every year. I would like us to be consistently be middle or above average in conference (at least most of the time, see football this year), and maybe occasionally be in the mix for a conference title.

I have no complaints about Collins’s recruiting ITD.

 

[DaCat]

My expectations are not for NU to compete for a B1G title every year. I would like us to be consistently be middle or above average in conference (at least most of the time, see football this year), and maybe occasionally be in the mix for a conference title.

I have no complaints about Collins’s recruiting ITD.

Throw in a few NCAA tournament appearances every few years too.