CCC and the PG

[IGNORE]

I have seen it written repeatedly that the PG problem is not CCCs fault. I have seen it enough to offer a thread. It IS his problem.

CCC should have done better recruiting PGs every year after Mac. Vassar was a poor mans stretch project G. Brown was very much a SG. And after Vassar was removed from the program, recruiting an extra PG should have been a priority.

Placing all the eggs in the basket of a true frosh PG is a fools bet. Yes, he won the bet w Mac. Still a fools bet. Even if Lathom hadn’t screwed the pooch, he has shown that he would not have been the answer here.

CCC has done a terrible job recruiting at guard, especially LG / PG and the problems related fall squarely on him.

Hopefully, this has simply been a series of learning experiences and he will treat the hard positions of LG and C w greater attention as he learned wings are a dime a dozen and 5 of them on the floor is not a winning formula.

 

[NJCat]

I have seen it written repeatedly that the PG problem is not CCCs fault. I have seen it enough to offer a thread. It IS his problem.

CCC should have done better recruiting PGs every year after Mac. Vassar was a poor mans stretch project G. Brown was very much a SG. And after Vassar was removed from the program, recruiting an extra PG should have been a priority.

Placing all the eggs in the basket of a true frosh PG is a fools bet. Yes, he won the bet w Mac. Still a fools bet. Even if Lathom hadn’t screwed the pooch, he has shown that he would not have been the answer here.

CCC has done a terrible job recruiting at guard, especially LG / PG and the problems related fall squarely on him.

Hopefully, this has simply been a series of learning experiences and he will treat the hard positions of LG and C w greater attention as he learned wings are a dime a dozen and 5 of them on the floor is not a winning formula.

I agree with you on this. His strategy seems to be have a PG who is a 4 year starter, live with the consequences in year 1 but thrive thereafter. He can use the recruiting tool of "handing the keys to the NU offense" to entice a high level PG, playing a fast-paced free flowing offensive he seems to desire.

The problem is, if he doesn't land a high level PG he is screwed. And if the chosen PG gets hurt (like BMac did) he is also screwed. Seems to be a very risky strategy.

A college team is only as good as its guards. Look at PSU as Exhibit 1: they lost 2 guards from their NIT Championship team and are at the bottom of the B1G this season, along with NU. NU has had some pretty decent PGs in my time, Juice, Baldwin, BMac to name just three. Collins needs to deliver a good one in 2020.

 

[willycat]

I agree with you on this. His strategy seems to be have a PG who is a 4 year starter, live with the consequences in year 1 but thrive thereafter. He can use the recruiting tool of "handing the keys to the NU offense" to entice a high level PG, playing a fast-paced free flowing offensive he seems to desire.

The problem is, if he doesn't land a high level PG he is screwed. And if the chosen PG gets hurt (like BMac did) he is also screwed. Seems to be a very risky strategy.

A college team is only as good as its guards. Look at PSU as Exhibit 1: they lost 2 guards from their NIT Championship team and are at the bottom of the B1G this season, along with NU. NU has had some pretty decent PGs in my time, Juice, Baldwin, BMac to name just three. Collins needs to deliver a good one in 2020.

Parker?

 

[Titanium999]

Ash will be back next year.

 

[pawildcat]

I agree with you on this. His strategy seems to be have a PG who is a 4 year starter, live with the consequences in year 1 but thrive thereafter. He can use the recruiting tool of "handing the keys to the NU offense" to entice a high level PG, playing a fast-paced free flowing offensive he seems to desire.

The problem is, if he doesn't land a high level PG he is screwed. And if the chosen PG gets hurt (like BMac did) he is also screwed. Seems to be a very risky strategy.

A college team is only as good as its guards. Look at PSU as Exhibit 1: they lost 2 guards from their NIT Championship team and are at the bottom of the B1G this season, along with NU. NU has had some pretty decent PGs in my time, Juice, Baldwin, BMac to name just three. Collins needs to deliver a good one in 2020.

Penn State's problems this year have been as much on the front line as at guard. They expected more than 8.4 ppg from Watkins at this point and their other bigs do not score much at all. Lamar Stevens is listed as a forward, but plays more like a swingman and was certainly expected to record better than a 20 percent three-point shooting average. Reaves, based on his talent level, has also underperformed.

 

[freewillie07]

I have seen it written repeatedly that the PG problem is not CCCs fault. I have seen it enough to offer a thread. It IS his problem.

CCC should have done better recruiting PGs every year after Mac. Vassar was a poor mans stretch project G. Brown was very much a SG. And after Vassar was removed from the program, recruiting an extra PG should have been a priority.

Placing all the eggs in the basket of a true frosh PG is a fools bet. Yes, he won the bet w Mac. Still a fools bet. Even if Lathom hadn’t screwed the pooch, he has shown that he would not have been the answer here.

CCC has done a terrible job recruiting at guard, especially LG / PG and the problems related fall squarely on him.

Hopefully, this has simply been a series of learning experiences and he will treat the hard positions of LG and C w greater attention as he learned wings are a dime a dozen and 5 of them on the floor is not a winning formula.

So you think Collins should have hired Jordan Goodwin’s AAU coach Corey Tate as an assistant to get him to NU, as Saint Louis did?

Here’s the article which confirms it came down to SLU or NU: https://www.bnd.com/sports/high-school/prep-basketball/article95320297.html

 

[hdhntr1]

I have seen it written repeatedly that the PG problem is not CCCs fault. I have seen it enough to offer a thread. It IS his problem.

CCC should have done better recruiting PGs every year after Mac. Vassar was a poor mans stretch project G. Brown was very much a SG. And after Vassar was removed from the program, recruiting an extra PG should have been a priority.

Placing all the eggs in the basket of a true frosh PG is a fools bet. Yes, he won the bet w Mac. Still a fools bet. Even if Lathom hadn’t screwed the pooch, he has shown that he would not have been the answer here.

CCC has done a terrible job recruiting at guard, especially LG / PG and the problems related fall squarely on him.

Hopefully, this has simply been a series of learning experiences and he will treat the hard positions of LG and C w greater attention as he learned wings are a dime a dozen and 5 of them on the floor is not a winning formula.

History at NU and other programs indicates recruiting PGs when you have a solid one is tough. They sort of want to play and if there is a guy ahead of them for 1-3 years, they generally don't come. Having BMac with his success likely stunted the PG recruiting for the time he was here. With Vassar and Brown there were other ways they could potentially get on the floor but neither picked up on the potential to get those other PG minutes. But with another PG, not so much. As far as bets on Frosh, it sort of becomes necessary. It happened with TJ, with Thompson, with Sobo etc. Hard to recruit a solid PG when you have a guy in place. Got Lathon when BMac was going to be leaving. Greer was a fallback and so far while we have seen some good things, nothing to keep a top guy from committing. I think you would find similar problems at most programs. Center likely offers a similar problem. And think of it. After getting Pardon, got Benson and then Young so not as much of an issue. But still, it is still tough when you have a guy established. With wings, there are 3-4 positions and plenty of rotation so no where near the difficulty.

 

[hdhntr1]

I agree with you on this. His strategy seems to be have a PG who is a 4 year starter, live with the consequences in year 1 but thrive thereafter. He can use the recruiting tool of "handing the keys to the NU offense" to entice a high level PG, playing a fast-paced free flowing offensive he seems to desire.

The problem is, if he doesn't land a high level PG he is screwed. And if the chosen PG gets hurt (like BMac did) he is also screwed. Seems to be a very risky strategy.

A college team is only as good as its guards. Look at PSU as Exhibit 1: they lost 2 guards from their NIT Championship team and are at the bottom of the B1G this season, along with NU. NU has had some pretty decent PGs in my time, Juice, Baldwin, BMac to name just three. Collins needs to deliver a good one in 2020.

Again, most programs tend to have difficulty recruiting solid PGs when they have a guy established. It is not just NU. BC had the same problem here. He got one when he had the open minutes to offer but did not when he d a guy in place. Nature of the beast

 

[haywood jahblowme]

I have seen it written repeatedly that the PG problem is not CCCs fault. I have seen it enough to offer a thread. It IS his problem.

CCC should have done better recruiting PGs every year after Mac. Vassar was a poor mans stretch project G. Brown was very much a SG. And after Vassar was removed from the program, recruiting an extra PG should have been a priority.

Placing all the eggs in the basket of a true frosh PG is a fools bet. Yes, he won the bet w Mac. Still a fools bet. Even if Lathom hadn’t screwed the pooch, he has shown that he would not have been the answer here.

CCC has done a terrible job recruiting at guard, especially LG / PG and the problems related fall squarely on him.

Hopefully, this has simply been a series of learning experiences and he will treat the hard positions of LG and C w greater attention as he learned wings are a dime a dozen and 5 of them on the floor is not a winning formula.

missed on Brad Davison (final 2 of wisc and NU) and Cormac Ryan (final 2 of stanford and NU)

landed Jordan Lathon (removed from NU) and got a commit from Paul Mulcahey (denied admissions and going to rutgers)

he found a solid point guard at the last minute who is academically eligible at NU in Greer

remember when you have no tradition its not easy to recruit from a limited talent/academic pool to see behind a 35 minute a game all-big ten 4-year starter

 

[torque-cat]

I have seen it written repeatedly that the PG problem is not CCCs fault. I have seen it enough to offer a thread. It IS his problem.

CCC should have done better recruiting PGs every year after Mac. Vassar was a poor mans stretch project G. Brown was very much a SG. And after Vassar was removed from the program, recruiting an extra PG should have been a priority.

Placing all the eggs in the basket of a true frosh PG is a fools bet. Yes, he won the bet w Mac. Still a fools bet. Even if Lathom hadn’t screwed the pooch, he has shown that he would not have been the answer here.

CCC has done a terrible job recruiting at guard, especially LG / PG and the problems related fall squarely on him.

Hopefully, this has simply been a series of learning experiences and he will treat the hard positions of LG and C w greater attention as he learned wings are a dime a dozen and 5 of them on the floor is not a winning formula.

See the other thread about small recruiting pool. Bottom line is we're competing against 60 power 5 programs and 300 programs overall for a handful of PGs who can help us win in the big ten and can succeed academically at NU. If Indy offers Bmac he probably isn't coming to NU, so nearly everything has to fall right to fill the roster with legit big ten players who are academically qualified and even harder to fit all position needs with depth, compensating for major injuries etc... Stanford has every possible advantage (academics, prestige, athletic success, money, location, weather, powerful athlete alumni network) and has been to NCAA tourney once in 10 years.

 

[willycat]

Ash will be back next year.

And that solves what?

 

[hdhntr1]

missed on Brad Davison (final 2 of wisc and NU) and Cormac Ryan (final 2 of stanford and NU)

landed Jordan Lathon (removed from NU) and got a commit from Paul Mulcahey (denied admissions and going to rutgers)

he found a solid point guard at the last minute who is academically eligible at NU in Greer

remember when you have no tradition its not easy to recruit from a limited talent/academic pool to see behind a 35 minute a game all-big ten 4-year starter

The fact that we were in on these guys and down to the final decision is pretty good. Hopefully we sill start hitting on a guy or two to take us to that next step.

 

[Hungry Jack]

And that solves what?

Gives Weassler license to post

 

[IGNORE]

So you think Collins should have hired Jordan Goodwin’s AAU coach Corey Tate as an assistant to get him to NU, as Saint Louis did?

Here’s the article which confirms it came down to SLU or NU: https://www.bnd.com/sports/high-school/prep-basketball/article95320297.html

Why not. Didn't we end up needing to fill a coach spot anyway?

 

[IGNORE]

History at NU and other programs indicates recruiting PGs when you have a solid one is tough. They sort of want to play and if there is a guy ahead of them for 1-3 years, they generally don't come. Having BMac with his success likely stunted the PG recruiting for the time he was here. With Vassar and Brown there were other ways they could potentially get on the floor but neither picked up on the potential to get those other PG minutes. But with another PG, not so much. As far as bets on Frosh, it sort of becomes necessary. It happened with TJ, with Thompson, with Sobo etc. Hard to recruit a solid PG when you have a guy in place. Got Lathon when BMac was going to be leaving. Greer was a fallback and so far while we have seen some good things, nothing to keep a top guy from committing. I think you would find similar problems at most programs. Center likely offers a similar problem. And think of it. After getting Pardon, got Benson and then Young so not as much of an issue. But still, it is still tough when you have a guy established. With wings, there are 3-4 positions and plenty of rotation so no where near the difficulty.

I dunno. Maybe under CCC and his 35+ mpg approach, guys aren't excited about the potential of 5 minutes or less of short stinted, short leashed relief time. If he played his starters closer to 25ish mpg (when they have quality bench options), then you can sell 15 mpg or a freshman redshirt, or even the chance to start in case of an injury and always a chance to unseat the starter.

How is PG any different than QB? Yet, we have pulled them in annually too - and usually good ones every other year at worst.

Besides, we aren't talking about one and dones. We are talking about the 3 and 4 star guys smart enough to get in so hopefully smart enough to understand the odds of playing pro and the value of the degree.

I get NU is tough. Higher admissions, cold weather, limited hot chicks. But you are in Chicago, on the big stage of the B1G playing on TV and earning parchment that even Vassar understood the value of. Plus, I keep hearing what a great recruiter CCC is. Well, then recruit - recruit to keep the PG and C positions stocked.

 

[Gladeskat]

Gives Weassler license to post

Lots of gerbil wheel squeaks.

 

[haywood jahblowme]

I dunno. Maybe under CCC and his 35+ mpg approach, guys aren't excited about the potential of 5 minutes or less of short stinted, short leashed relief time. If he played his starters closer to 25ish mpg (when they have quality bench options), then you can sell 15 mpg or a freshman redshirt, or even the chance to start in case of an injury and always a chance to unseat the starter.

How is PG any different than QB? Yet, we have pulled them in annually too - and usually good ones every other year at worst.

Besides, we aren't talking about one and dones. We are talking about the 3 and 4 star guys smart enough to get in so hopefully smart enough to understand the odds of playing pro and the value of the degree.

I get NU is tough. Higher admissions, cold weather, limited hot chicks. But you are in Chicago, on the big stage of the B1G playing on TV and earning parchment that even Vassar understood the value of. Plus, I keep hearing what a great recruiter CCC is. Well, then recruit - recruit to keep the PG and C positions stocked.

the CCC minutes fallacy is overblown. its higher but not by much

not unique (didn't count single digits minutes or 10 min)
UM - 7 man rotation - min - 32.8, 32.8, 31.7, 29.5, 27.2, 21.8, 14.8
MSU - 8 man rotation - min - 32.2, 28.6, 28.3, 27.3, 23, 21.5, 18.9, 17.5
Mary - 8 man rotation - min - 33.8, 28.8, 28.5, 26.2, 25.5, 24.5, 13.7, 12.9
PU - 8 man rotation - min - 34. 33.2, 27.5, 24, 19.1, 14.9, 14.4, 13.3, 13.3
NEB - 7 man rotation - min - 33.7, 32.5, 30.7, 30, 28.5, 13.9, 13
minn - 7 man rotaiton - min - 33.4, 31, 30.3, 28.8, 22.3, 20.7, 18.1

etc etc etc

NU - 7 man rotation - min - 32.7, 31.6, 30.7, 30.7, 26.1, 14, 14, (12.6, 12)

 

[IGNORE2]

the CCC minutes fallacy is overblown. its higher but not by much

not unique (didn't count single digits minutes or 10 min)
UM - 7 man rotation - min - 32.8, 32.8, 31.7, 29.5, 27.2, 21.8, 14.8
MSU - 8 man rotation - min - 32.2, 28.6, 28.3, 27.3, 23, 21.5, 18.9, 17.5
Mary - 8 man rotation - min - 33.8, 28.8, 28.5, 26.2, 25.5, 24.5, 13.7, 12.9
PU - 8 man rotation - min - 34. 33.2, 27.5, 24, 19.1, 14.9, 14.4, 13.3, 13.3
NEB - 7 man rotation - min - 33.7, 32.5, 30.7, 30, 28.5, 13.9, 13
minn - 7 man rotaiton - min - 33.4, 31, 30.3, 28.8, 22.3, 20.7, 18.1

etc etc etc

NU - 7 man rotation - min - 32.7, 31.6, 30.7, 30.7, 26.1, 14, 14, (12.6, 12)

I’m on the wrong account - iPad and need to find new password - but Haywood, I would love to see the numbers for the past two seasons for NU!

 

[lou v]

History at NU and other programs indicates recruiting PGs when you have a solid one is tough. They sort of want to play and if there is a guy ahead of them for 1-3 years, they generally don't come. Having BMac with his success likely stunted the PG recruiting for the time he was here. With Vassar and Brown there were other ways they could potentially get on the floor but neither picked up on the potential to get those other PG minutes. But with another PG, not so much. As far as bets on Frosh, it sort of becomes necessary. It happened with TJ, with Thompson, with Sobo etc. Hard to recruit a solid PG when you have a guy in place. Got Lathon when BMac was going to be leaving. Greer was a fallback and so far while we have seen some good things, nothing to keep a top guy from committing. I think you would find similar problems at most programs. Center likely offers a similar problem. And think of it. After getting Pardon, got Benson and then Young so not as much of an issue. But still, it is still tough when you have a guy established. With wings, there are 3-4 positions and plenty of rotation so no where near the difficulty.

How is PG any different than QB? Yet, we have pulled them in annually too - and usually good ones every other year at worst.
.

I don’t think you’ve been paying attention to NU’s QB recruiting lately. After landing Thorson, NU didn’t land a first-tier QB for the next three cycles. They took Lloyd Yates as a project in 2015 and wound up moving him to WR. Then, they got second-tier targets Aidan Smith in 2016 and Andrew Marty in 2017. The fact that walkon TJ Green was the backup last season proves that things didn’t work out as hoped for either of them. NU finally got an A-lister last year when Jason Whittaker committed early.

If Hunter Johnson hadn’t fallen into NU’s lap last year, the QB situation would have been pretty scary going into the 2019 season.

 

[zeek55]

If Hunter Johnson hadn’t fallen into NU’s lap last year, the QB situation would have been pretty scary going into the 2019 season.

Exactly this.

Go back to the threads on the football boards after Cale Millen decommitted in April and before Hunter Johnson transferred in June.

For about 6 weeks, the board was full of complaints about our eventual QB situation post-CT.


Of course getting Hunter in June and then Atkinson as one of our first 2020 commits has completely changed that situation.

 

[ricko654321]

History at NU and other programs indicates recruiting PGs when you have a solid one is tough. They sort of want to play and if there is a guy ahead of them for 1-3 years, they generally don't come. Having BMac with his success likely stunted the PG recruiting for the time he was here. With Vassar and Brown there were other ways they could potentially get on the floor but neither picked up on the potential to get those other PG minutes. But with another PG, not so much. As far as bets on Frosh, it sort of becomes necessary. It happened with TJ, with Thompson, with Sobo etc. Hard to recruit a solid PG when you have a guy in place. Got Lathon when BMac was going to be leaving. Greer was a fallback and so far while we have seen some good things, nothing to keep a top guy from committing. I think you would find similar problems at most programs. Center likely offers a similar problem. And think of it. After getting Pardon, got Benson and then Young so not as much of an issue. But still, it is still tough when you have a guy established. With wings, there are 3-4 positions and plenty of rotation so no where near the difficulty.

I think you are right and bob is also right... 1 it’s tough, but 2 you gotta find a way to get quality PG and depth into the system otherwise you run into trouble. The Lathon situation sucks, but the overall result is still something CC is accountable for as head coach. Hopefully we can find someone for next year.

 

[haywood jahblowme]

If Hunter Johnson hadn’t fallen into NU’s lap last year, the QB situation would have been pretty scary going into the 2019 season.[/QUOTE]

I’m on the wrong account - iPad and need to find new password - but Haywood, I would love to see the numbers for the past two seasons for NU!

im sure you could google it while watching TV like I did

 

[Max_Power]

Why not. Didn't we end up needing to fill a coach spot anyway?

Funny thing about Goodwin is that Gaines is a very similar player.

 

[hdhntr1]

I dunno. Maybe under CCC and his 35+ mpg approach, guys aren't excited about the potential of 5 minutes or less of short stinted, short leashed relief time. If he played his starters closer to 25ish mpg (when they have quality bench options), then you can sell 15 mpg or a freshman redshirt, or even the chance to start in case of an injury and always a chance to unseat the starter.

How is PG any different than QB? Yet, we have pulled them in annually too - and usually good ones every other year at worst.

Besides, we aren't talking about one and dones. We are talking about the 3 and 4 star guys smart enough to get in so hopefully smart enough to understand the odds of playing pro and the value of the degree.

I get NU is tough. Higher admissions, cold weather, limited hot chicks. But you are in Chicago, on the big stage of the B1G playing on TV and earning parchment that even Vassar understood the value of. Plus, I keep hearing what a great recruiter CCC is. Well, then recruit - recruit to keep the PG and C positions stocked.

PG is different for several reasons. First BB has only 13 scholarships so pretty difficult to commit more than two spots max to the position rather than 5 in FB. Season ending or career ending injuries are less likely. They tend to RS their Frosh year. There is the opportunity for QB recruits to switch positions and if there is no opportunity at the program they were recruited to many transfer out. And even in FB, when you have a solid guy underclassman that is starting and doing well, hard to get a top guy to commit until they see open time on the field.

PGs tend to play as Frosh. Once a guy is in place, again most programs have trouble recruiting a solid PG when they have a guy in place. Exception might be one or two and done programs where the recruit sees that he will not be sitting behind the stud on court for long. But for most programs they will have trouble having more than one top PG in the system at any one time, NU is not unique in that. I would guess that at least half of the teams in the BIG are in that position and probably a lot more. They don't come to sit around for a couple years. Almost anywhere. Plus CCC had his PG that got himself basically kicked out.

And as far as your minutes that would be available would it help to know that in most teams in the BIG that the PG is averaging something like 33-35 mpg? The staring PG is on the floor so where are those 15 mpg that the new guy is going to get. Winston with MSU has averaged over 32 mpg this year. The guy from Mich is closer to 35 mpg WIS, something similar. Basically you have 1 pg and you find a way to make do for the minutes that they are not in the game. This is not one team, it is every team. Basically most teams have 1 main PG and one guy they can use in a pinch (probably a 2) Show me the teams that have 2 or more legitimate PGs on the roster at any one time and I would guess it won't be many.

Prior to going into this year, we were supposed to have Lathon, with Turner and Ash to pick up the additional minutes. That would have been a really nice mix. Lathon would have gotten 25 -30 mpg which for a Frosh taking the reigns is about perfect. When BMac arrived, we had Sobo so it worked out that way when BMac was a Frosh. What we ended up with was no Lathon, no Ash and Turner taking 30-35 mpg with Greer taking 5-10 mpg in the role. While he might be our best PG alternative, he is not ready yet. We have seen some good things and I expect significant improvement by next year but for now, he is not ready to take over the position. Definitely not what was planned. Good news is that Greer looks like he will be serviceable in the role while thus far he has not been THE guy so as PG recruits are looking at the program, they see available minutes. Greer is likely to be solid but not until next year so CCC can actively recruit a PG and we will be seen as a descent destination. And that would give the two PG setup you seek.

 

[hdhntr1]

Why not. Didn't we end up needing to fill a coach spot anyway?

I think the guy from Mich who CCC grew up with took that position.

 

[IGNORE]

the CCC minutes fallacy is overblown. its higher but not by much

not unique (didn't count single digits minutes or 10 min)
UM - 7 man rotation - min - 32.8, 32.8, 31.7, 29.5, 27.2, 21.8, 14.8
MSU - 8 man rotation - min - 32.2, 28.6, 28.3, 27.3, 23, 21.5, 18.9, 17.5
Mary - 8 man rotation - min - 33.8, 28.8, 28.5, 26.2, 25.5, 24.5, 13.7, 12.9
PU - 8 man rotation - min - 34. 33.2, 27.5, 24, 19.1, 14.9, 14.4, 13.3, 13.3
NEB - 7 man rotation - min - 33.7, 32.5, 30.7, 30, 28.5, 13.9, 13
minn - 7 man rotaiton - min - 33.4, 31, 30.3, 28.8, 22.3, 20.7, 18.1

etc etc etc

NU - 7 man rotation - min - 32.7, 31.6, 30.7, 30.7, 26.1, 14, 14, (12.6, 12)

17-18 — 8.5 man rotation w top 5 of 34, 32, 31, 30 & 28
16-17 — no real defined rotation and top two guys at 37 & 36

So the minutes fallacy may be becoming one, but it was not in the past. Eyes and stats don’t lie. CCC runs his guys til they drop. He needs to develop an 8 man team that he trusts.

 

[freewillie07]

missed on Brad Davison (final 2 of wisc and NU) and Cormac Ryan (final 2 of stanford and NU)

landed Jordan Lathon (removed from NU) and got a commit from Paul Mulcahey (denied admissions and going to rutgers)

he found a solid point guard at the last minute who is academically eligible at NU in Greer

remember when you have no tradition its not easy to recruit from a limited talent/academic pool to see behind a 35 minute a game all-big ten 4-year starter

I always forget about Cormac Ryan. Man... he commits and Lathon doesn’t look at NU, and the whole ensuing debacle never comes to pass.

The more I think about it, the more annoyed I am that we lost out to Stanford, of all places.

 

[Jeffrey Cat]

17-18 — 8.5 man rotation w top 5 of 34, 32, 31, 30 & 28
16-17 — no real defined rotation and top two guys at 37 & 36

So the minutes fallacy may be becoming one, but it was not in the past. Eyes and stats don’t lie. CCC runs his guys til they drop. He needs to develop an 8 man team that he trusts.

Before making these off hand comments about Chris Collins running players into the ground, why don’t you go to Sports Reference.com. The Northwestern numbers are there for every year and we are clearly running a eight man plus rotation in the recent years. It seems we have three types of people who post here as follows. First, the person who goes to nearly every game of which I am part. Second, the guy who would go to the games but it is geographically impossible either being out of town or fighting Chicago area traffic. Third, people who dislike Collins, James, and Donlen either because of a longtime grudge, a love for the previous coaching staff, or just plain Northwestern haters coming board as someone other than who you are.

I think Lou should ban some of the posters who around just to start a argument.

 

[mikewebb68]

Before making these off hand comments about Chris Collins running players into the ground, why don’t you go to Sports Reference.com. The Northwestern numbers are there for every year and we are clearly running a eight man plus rotation in the recent years. It seems we have three types of people who post here as follows. First, the person who goes to nearly every game of which I am part. Second, the guy who would go to the games but it is geographically impossible either being out of town or fighting Chicago area traffic. Third, people who dislike Collins, James, and Donlen either because of a longtime grudge, a love for the previous coaching staff, or just plain Northwestern haters coming board as someone other than who you are.

I think Lou should ban some of the posters who around just to start a argument.

They have indeed banned many of those posters: Feli, DocCatsFan, and MysticCat, just to name a few, so I believe they are doing a fine job. Big difference between those posters and someone like Bob (the artist formerly known as Xbob, now happliy posting as IGNORE), if your post is directed at him. He's certainly a fan. He even flies his plan to games sometimes, and has invited other board members to join him at least one of which has taken him up on his offer. He is critical of the program, but is a smart poster and knows not to post in a manner like the aforementioned banned posters. I disagree with him on many issues, but don't see anything wrong with his posts. Plus, he was a stand-up guy (like Fitzphile) in honoring a screenname wager on this board (admit I am biased on this one, since it was with me). Yeah, he does troll with his PKK stuff sometimes which has caused some posters to fly off the handle, but if we ban everyone who trolls on occassion, there would be like 10 total posters left on this board (and I would be banned as well, for the record!).

 

[haywood jahblowme]

17-18 — 8.5 man rotation w top 5 of 34, 32, 31, 30 & 28
16-17 — no real defined rotation and top two guys at 37 & 36

So the minutes fallacy may be becoming one, but it was not in the past. Eyes and stats don’t lie. CCC runs his guys til they drop. He needs to develop an 8 man team that he trusts.

but do any teams with low levels of overall talent play their top guys for 36-37 min a game?

im pretty sure they do

so while collins is doing something you make not like (and while it is certainly not ideal) - its not like its out of the norm especially for teams trying to acquire overall talent

 

[IGNORE]

Before making these off hand comments about Chris Collins running players into the ground, why don’t you go to Sports Reference.com. The Northwestern numbers are there for every year and we are clearly running a eight man plus rotation in the recent years. It seems we have three types of people who post here as follows. First, the person who goes to nearly every game of which I am part. Second, the guy who would go to the games but it is geographically impossible either being out of town or fighting Chicago area traffic. Third, people who dislike Collins, James, and Donlen either because of a longtime grudge, a love for the previous coaching staff, or just plain Northwestern haters coming board as someone other than who you are.

I think Lou should ban some of the posters who around just to start a argument.

Jeffrey, I agree that we have three types of posters:

1. Folks who travel to games yet don’t define fandom for others. That knows more than some wet nosed brat ever will. Like me.

2. Fair folks that converse and can agree to disagree. Educated, wise, varied in opinion - Mike and NJ come to mind.

3. Then fools. Know it alls. Entitled, participation trophy blowhards like you. But still, ignore is your friend.

 

[IGNORE]

but do any teams with low levels of overall talent play their top guys for 36-37 min a game?

im pretty sure they do

so while collins is doing something you make not like (and while it is certainly not ideal) - its not like its out of the norm especially for teams trying to acquire overall talent

The point I try to make is that CCC needs to have depth at PG and C. Folks say hard spots to recruit but then say he is a great recruiter.

Well, two problems. First, I can see it hard to recruit young talent when a good player is a soph or junior here, especially when CCC plays that guy 35 mpg leaving little for a recruit to prove himself or develop with. Add the short leash and nearby doghouse and why would any talent want to come. Better to wait until vacant spot and CCC has no options.

This year, Greer has sat and we have sucked. Now he seems to have forced himself into the conversation. CCC has painted himself into a corner w empty schollies and 400 wings. Notice, he can play and develop benson and young as he wishes. If CCC had recruited at G better, he would have more options there too.

Second, by running these guys so hard, they can’t finish games or seasons. We keep seeing in. Mac in his frosh season. This year in end of games.

I’m not ready to run out CCC. But he needs to develop depth, trust the bench more and be willing to play for the future on occasion. And he needs two legit PGs and Cs on the roster every year without fail.

 

[Jeffrey Cat]

The point I try to make is that CCC needs to have depth at PG and C. Folks say hard spots to recruit but then say he is a great recruiter.

Well, two problems. First, I can see it hard to recruit young talent when a good player is a soph or junior here, especially when CCC plays that guy 35 mpg leaving little for a recruit to prove himself or develop with. Add the short leash and nearby doghouse and why would any talent want to come. Better to wait until vacant spot and CCC has no options.

This year, Greer has sat and we have sucked. Now he seems to have forced himself into the conversation. CCC has painted himself into a corner w empty schollies and 400 wings. Notice, he can play and develop benson and young as he wishes. If CCC had recruited at G better, he would have more options there too.

Second, by running these guys so hard, they can’t finish games or seasons. We keep seeing in. Mac in his frosh season. This year in end of games.

I’m not ready to run out CCC. But he needs to develop depth, trust the bench more and be willing to play for the future on occasion. And he needs two legit PGs and Cs on the roster every year without fail.

First of all I think you and I agree on more points than we disagree. I’ll try to go through your points paragraph by paragraph.

I agree with you we need depth at point guard, but you have to agree we had an unusual situation with Lathon and now Ash is done for the year. We do have 3 centers on the roster. One probably the best big man we have ever had, recruited by Collins and James. The other is Benson, who appears to be no more than a backup, and Young, who is redshirting.

I agree Collins has a short leash on some of these young guys. In regard to playing Bryant McIntosh 35 plus minutes a game, I think it was a little less but whatever if you or I had the best point guard in the history of the program we would play him just as much as he has.

I like Greer but he is a project not nearly the type of player McIntosh was coming out of high school.

Actually I feel the same as you on overusing the players we have but then if I go into the reference I find that we are using nine players 10 minutes or more a game including Falzon, but only for a few games. That does not include Benson, who is 9 point something minutes.

We do have a point guard coming next year and a big man, who is getting rave reviews.

 

[NJCat]

We do have 3 centers on the roster. One probably the best big man we have ever had, recruited by Collins and James.

Evan Eschmeyer would beg to differ. All-time NU leading rebounder, 4th in points, All American, three times first team All B1G.

Love Dererk, but he isn't close to the dominant big man EE was.

 

[Jeffrey Cat]

Evan Eschmeyer would beg to differ. All-time NU leading rebounder, 4th in points, All American, three times first team All B1G.

Love Dererk, but he isn't close to the dominant big man EE was.

I do agree with you Evan Eschmeyer. I forgot about him. How soon we forget. Actually Pardon is a different type of center and that is nothing against Eschmeyer.

 

[IGNORE]

First of all I think you and I agree on more points than we disagree. I’ll try to go through your points paragraph by paragraph.

I agree with you we need depth at point guard, but you have to agree we had an unusual situation with Lathon and now Ash is done for the year. We do have 3 centers on the roster. One probably the best big man we have ever had, recruited by Collins and James. The other is Benson, who appears to be no more than a backup, and Young, who is redshirting.

I agree Collins has a short leash on some of these young guys. In regard to playing Bryant McIntosh 35 plus minutes a game, I think it was a little less but whatever if you or I had the best point guard in the history of the program we would play him just as much as he has.

I like Greer but he is a project not nearly the type of player McIntosh was coming out of high school.

Actually I feel the same as you on overusing the players we have but then if I go into the reference I find that we are using nine players 10 minutes or more a game including Falzon, but only for a few games. That does not include Benson, who is 9 point something minutes.

We do have a point guard coming next year and a big man, who is getting rave reviews.

A couple points:

1. Evan Eschmeyer says hi. Pardon is Alex Olah at best. I watched Evan play for NU for ten years, never has there been a better big guy.

2. Mac wasn’t great. He will not go into the college HOF, he was not drafted, he isn’t playing in the league. And he regressed each year. And he regressed as the seasons went on.

IMHO, the two things that screwed Mac. Curry camp and too many frigging minutes.

3. We play for the future. Minutes this year may convince Falzon to stay. They might make Greer a competent option at PG next year. Might help Kopp gain confidence. Might have helped Nance develop.

Instead, we wore down and lost the games we needed for a post season. So what was gained by running Law and Pardon into the ground and overplaying Turner and Taylor.

Hindsight is 20/20. But CCC adjusts too late. Taylor needed to come off the bench. Gaines needed to start. Falzon needed a more chances. Kopp, Nance and Greer needed more minutes.

We can agree to disagree. But you question my fan card, you attack me and I come back hard. I haven’t read the rest of the threads but I will consider our battle over.

 

[NJCat]

A couple points:

1. Evan Eschmeyer says hi. Pardon is Alex Olah at best. I watched Evan play for NU for ten years, never has there been a better big guy.

Ha.......Pardon >>> Olah. I liked Olah, but Dererk is way better.

Best Centers since I started watching NU in 1974?

Eschmeyer
Pardon
Kevin Rankin
Olah
Brian Schwabe
James Wallace

 

[IGNORE]

Ha.......Pardon >>> Olah. I liked Olah, but Dererk is way better.

Best Centers since I started watching NU in 1974?

Eschmeyer
Pardon
Kevin Rankin
Olah
Brian Schwabe
James Wallace

I was in school there during the Rankin days. Olah and Rankin were pretty equal. Pardon is frequently far better, but has also disappeared or fouled out over his whole career.

 

[Medill90]

Ha.......Pardon >>> Olah. I liked Olah, but Dererk is way better.

Best Centers since I started watching NU in 1974?

Eschmeyer
Pardon
Kevin Rankin
Olah
Brian Schwabe
James Wallace

Where's the love for Andre Goode? Second round NBA draft pick. I'd put him 3, after Pardon.

 

[Catreporter]

Goode was a forward. Joe Ruklick has to be in the conversation about best centers ever at NU. Pardon has had a great career playing as an UNDERSIZED Big Ten center and no, BMAC did not regress every year. He was instrumental in the NCAA run. We don't beat Wake Forest without him that year to say nothing of Vandy in the NCAA tourney itself. He got INJURED his senior year so yeah it didn't finish the way any of us wanted but how is that CCC's fault?