Feel bad for the players

[corbi296]

We do not have the talent, size, and speed at the skilled positions and with a mediocre o line this is what we get!

You have this backwards. We have average skill position talent and a putrid OL. If we had an above average OL, a Clayton Thorson level QB, and the same average skill position talent then we would be Wisconsin, i.e we would be competing for Big Ten Championships.

 

[phatcat]

we all feel bad for the players, except those who have oaths to the establishment.
All that sweat and sacrifice to believe in a lie. Fitz has proven to be a commercial product more concerned with money.
He himself has said he dont care about the offense.

Dingdingding. We have a winner for dumbest post of the season. If anyone DOESN'T swear their allegiance, they need to transfer

Fitz is one of the best coaches in the country and THE best coach for our program. He is often pigheaded and arrogant, but the team plays clean, graduates, stays out of trouble, and, generally, wins.

He's far from perfect, but considering the laundry list of pi$$ poor coaches that have come and gone in the B1G in his tenure, I'll keep him.

That said, if you aren't improving, you are getting worse. I'm tired of hearing about the Steve Austin better stronger faster players when, in fact, they aren't. Perhaps it is the emphasis on defense, where they use all their recruiting ammo on defensive players, idk. But what we saw yesterday was roughly equivalent to a mid level MAC offense. Some of it is injuries, some losses to graduation, but that doesn't excuses us being the worst in the country. Fitz actually seems to be infusing a lot of new blood in the program but his stubborn loyalty to the equivalent of tenured professors isn't working. Recall that JB struggled mightily as DC and so he made him something like associate HC and DB coach, and it worked. Do that with Mick. Or Springer. Or both.

Low talent = bad recruiting/coaching
Low development or motivation = bad coaching.
Bad schemes = bad coaching

 

[Mr Wickerpark]

Dingdingding. We have a winner for dumbest post of the season. If anyone DOESN'T swear their allegiance, they need to transfer

Fitz is one of the best coaches in the country and THE best coach for our program. He is often pigheaded and arrogant, but the team plays clean, graduates, stays out of trouble, and, generally, wins.

He's far from perfect, but considering the laundry list of pi$$ poor coaches that have come and gone in the B1G in his tenure, I'll keep him.

That said, if you aren't improving, you are getting worse. I'm tired of hearing about the Steve Austin better stronger faster players when, in fact, they aren't. Perhaps it is the emphasis on defense, where they use all their recruiting ammo on defensive players, idk. But what we saw yesterday was roughly equivalent to a mid level MAC offense. Some of it is injuries, some losses to graduation, but that doesn't excuses us being the worst in the country. Fitz actually seems to be infusing a lot of new blood in the program but his stubborn loyalty to the equivalent of tenured professors isn't working. Recall that JB struggled mightily as DC and so he made him something like associate HC and DB coach, and it worked. Do that with Mick. Or Springer. Or both.

Low talent = bad recruiting/coaching
Low development or motivation = bad coaching.
Bad schemes = bad coaching

i was referring to oaths by certain posters.
I disagree with most of what you said other than I do currently agree that Fitz is adequate or par.
Barnett and Walker won the Bigten with crapola facilities and brought in much better talent.
Many will start hoping that we continue to get embarrassed so mccall is forced out but that isnt the answer.

 

[jensberg]

Are people concerned that some of our recruits will flip and go elsewhere after all of the negativity around the program from the fan base and others? Perhaps even players entering the portal? Typically that doesn't happen to us.

 

[Fitz51]

Are people concerned that some of our recruits will flip and go elsewhere after all of the negativity around the program from the fan base and others? Perhaps even players entering the portal? Typically that doesn't happen to us.

This board is not indicative of the NU fan base.

 

[curdog]

Your mind can keep being boggled because there are many, hardcore NU fans besides myself who think McCall is far down the list of problems with this offense. Fix the OL, recruit a starting Big ten caliber QB every year and then you’ll see what this team can do. I know that we won 36 games, a Big ten West title and three bowl games over a 4 year span with this offense/OC when we had an above average Big ten QB and a well above average Big Ten RB even though we had a well below average Big Ten OL. That tells me the problem isn’t with the offense or the OC. It tells me that the main difference between last year’s Big Ten West champs and this year’s team is Clayton Thorson. Give me a Clayton Thorson or better caliber QB and an above average OL and this team is competing every year for Big Ten titles with this Offense/OC. McCall is not THE problem.

Yeah, we just keep going round and round. You think McCall is fine despite all the statistics (for losers) that say otherwise. I’m not going to convince you otherwise and you sure as hell aren’t going to convince me that he isn’t the problem. Let’s just hope he realizes the game has past him by and retires at the end of the season

 

[Turk]

This board is not indicative of the NU fan base.

No. What NU fan base there is, is much more brutal than this board.

 

[stpaulcat]

Man, I just want to tell all the naysayers to shut up. Hard to listen to all the negativity from those that have no clue. Competitive, hard played game by both teams. Perfect, no, but a great all out effort by the coaches and players.

Yes, but. Our offense has been basically the same for going on seven years (not good, not bad, just one side or the other of mediocre). Couldn't we do better? We are not seeing a progression here, simply a trend to the status quo of better than terrible. If we beat one really good team this year, I will eat my words, and we only have two of those left on the schedule. If we beat any remaining team this year, I will be surprised.

 

[BigCatCT]

Man, I just want to tell all the naysayers to shut up. Hard to listen to all the negativity from those that have no clue. Competitive, hard played game by both teams. Perfect, no, but a great all out effort by the coaches and players.

I’ll take close losses over continually reading about players criminal charges any day. I think the OC situation will play itself out relatively soon and the future is bright for NU.

We have two really good QB’s in Hunter and Aiden and an improving OL. I think the offense will greatly improve and believe we can win out the final seven (including bowl) games of season. Not the repeat B1G west champions we all hoped for but I’ve been a fan for 30 years and am in for the the long haul.

 

[CoralSpringsCat]

The "noise" around McCall, whether justified or not, could impact recruiting and may in and of itself necessitate a change. I will say that Fitz will resist making a change based solely on public pressure and I think that is how it should be. Even if a change is made, the one thing I am certain of is that as long as Fitz is around, NU won't have an offense that will top the statistical charts because doing so would require us to play a style of football that is in contrast with Fitz's philosophy on the game. Fitz wants to play a tough, physical brand of football with an emphasis on defense and a ball control style offense that complements a dominant defense. Fitz believes that style wins the most football games and I agree with him. Given that philosophy, I don't care what OC you bring in, NU will never play the style of offense and score the amount of points that some fans around here are pinning for.

Sounds like the recipe Frank Reich and the Bills used last night to defeat the Chiefs.

 

[TheC]

I’ll take close losses over continually reading about players criminal charges any day. I think the OC situation will play itself out relatively soon and the future is bright for NU.

We have two really good QB’s in Hunter and Aiden and an improving OL. I think the offense will greatly improve and believe we can win out the final seven (including bowl) games of season. Not the repeat B1G west champions we all hoped for but I’ve been a fan for 30 years and am in for the the long haul.

The OL play in the second half Saturday was encouraging. If Aidan could have hit on a couple of those throws, I think we win that game. If the OL can build on this (post OSU - I'm not going to be unrealistic in my expectations), and HJ can get more comfortable with the decision making, I could see this team winning some games down the stretch.

 

[Turk]

The "noise" around McCall, whether justified or not, could impact recruiting and may in and of itself necessitate a change. I will say that Fitz will resist making a change based solely on public pressure and I think that is how it should be. Even if a change is made, the one thing I am certain of is that as long as Fitz is around, NU won't have an offense that will top the statistical charts because doing so would require us to play a style of football that is in contrast with Fitz's philosophy on the game. Fitz wants to play a tough, physical brand of football with an emphasis on defense and a ball control style offense that complements a dominant defense. Fitz believes that style wins the most football games and I agree with him. Given that philosophy, I don't care what OC you bring in, NU will never play the style of offense and score the amount of points that some fans around here are pinning for.

Amazing how you have become the greatest McCall Apologist. Also, it remains amazing to me how you don't know or understand that McCall has affected offensive recruiting here for at least the last 5 years. Would you want to play in an offense that has objectively sucked for years? That has struggled to develop players for the next level? Wake up Corbi, you aren't in Kansas.

 

[Titanium999]

I’ll take close losses over continually reading about players criminal charges any day. I think the OC situation will play itself out relatively soon and the future is bright for NU.

We have two really good QB’s in Hunter and Aiden and an improving OL. I think the offense will greatly improve and believe we can win out the final seven (including bowl) games of season. Not the repeat B1G west champions we all hoped for but I’ve been a fan for 30 years and am in for the the long haul.

TJ Green will be back next year too!

 

[evanston09]

People who look at the offense and see McCall as the problem and those who look at the offense and see the talent as the problem *can* both be right in their analysis.

But does it matter who is right?

In the last 7 seasons including this one we have finished better than 83rd in scoring offense ONCE. On average over 7 years we’ve been in the 25% percentile of scoring offense.

I also don’t think our defensive recruiting is light years ahead of our offensive recruiting. Somehow our defense continues to be acceptable, and our offense continues to struggle.

We obviously have a problem turning the talent we do have into production. Whether it’s scheme, talent, whatever-it’s not good enough.

At what point do we decide that nearly a decade of sustained futility is enough, regardless of the reasoning?

 

[stpaulcat]

TJ Green will be back next year too!

Really?

 

[ricko654321]

The "noise" around McCall, whether justified or not, could impact recruiting and may in and of itself necessitate a change. I will say that Fitz will resist making a change based solely on public pressure and I think that is how it should be. Even if a change is made, the one thing I am certain of is that as long as Fitz is around, NU won't have an offense that will top the statistical charts because doing so would require us to play a style of football that is in contrast with Fitz's philosophy on the game. Fitz wants to play a tough, physical brand of football with an emphasis on defense and a ball control style offense that complements a dominant defense. Fitz believes that style wins the most football games and I agree with him. Given that philosophy, I don't care what OC you bring in, NU will never play the style of offense and score the amount of points that some fans around here are pinning for.

Alabama used to play like that. Ohio St used to play like that. LSU used to play like that. Even Clemson did, to some extent. The best teams in the country, who play at the highest level, used to build from the bottom up with defense and running game, being strong, physical up front with ball control offenses that don't light up the scoreboard. Saban used to have the same offensive philosophy as Fitz does today.

When he changed his offensive philosophy by giving the reins to Lane Kiffin (which, ugh, but he's a smart play-caller), Alabama became better not worse. Bama, OSU, LSU etc have embraced modern offensive concepts and are now trying to have an exceptional offense in addition to an exceptional defense. We use some modern offensive concepts, but it does not appear that our goal is to be excellent on offense - as you imply it is to have a "tough ball control style offense that complements a dominant defense". Bama's recruiting on offense has picked up commensurately as they become a desirable place to play. On the flip side you can look at Oklahoma, a team that starts with an exceptional offense and has been trying to complement it with a decent defense - Lincoln Riley just fired DC Mike Stoops after last season and brought in a new guy. He understands that in order to compete at the highest level you need to have both sides of the ball.

I don't expect us to have an exceptional team like that on both sides of the ball all the time, that's pretty unrealistic. But it would be nice if we just acted like we expected to be good on offense, and acknowledged that the current state of affairs is not acceptable.

PS- Coaches can change. Fitz has changed in a lot of ways over the years. Even the stodgy Harbaugh attempted an offensive change by hiring Gattis a new OC this year. That obviously hasn't worked yet, but at least he is trying.

 

[ricko654321]

Your mind can keep being boggled because there are many, hardcore NU fans besides myself who think McCall is far down the list of problems with this offense. Fix the OL, recruit a starting Big ten caliber QB every year and then you’ll see what this team can do. I know that we won 36 games, a Big ten West title and three bowl games over a 4 year span with this offense/OC when we had an above average Big ten QB and a well above average Big Ten RB even though we had a well below average Big Ten OL. That tells me the problem isn’t with the offense or the OC. It tells me that the main difference between last year’s Big Ten West champs and this year’s team is Clayton Thorson. Give me a Clayton Thorson or better caliber QB and an above average OL and this team is competing every year for Big Ten titles with this Offense/OC. McCall is not THE problem.

I'm not even arguing primarily based on the results this year - I'm arguing based on the play calling process, which is highly predictable (in my opinion) and has predictably led to our QBs being put in situations where they do not have a reasonable chance at success.

I think that McCall is far from the only problem, but in order for you to maintain your stance, I think one of the following 3 things must be true:
1. You really don't think the OC makes much a difference (similar to Gladeskat's line of response that it's not the coaches)
2. You think that McCall is an above average (or even just average) P5 Offensive Coordinator in 2019 (not based on his past results, though I personally don't think those improve the case for him much)
3. You acknowledge he is a below average P5 OC, but don't think that at Northwestern we can get anyone better

Or maybe some combination of all those things? I don't think any of those is true, or at the least I think the risk-reward of dumping Mick and bringing in someone knew is asymmetrically skewed in favor of potential improvement vs the limited potential for us to get worse.

 

[Gladeskat]

1. You really don't think the OC makes much a difference (similar to Gladeskat's line of response that it's not the coaches)

Or maybe some combination of all those things? I don't think any of those is true, or at the least I think the risk-reward of dumping Mick and bringing in someone knew is asymmetrically skewed in favor of potential improvement vs the limited potential for us to get worse.

How could it not be asymmetrically skewed? Lol!

My position is we have other problems to fix before we can properly assess the OC. Admittedly, I don't care for fans calling for firings - the Jerry Brown BS was ugly, calls for firing McPherson because he wasn't a D1 RB in college, were ridiculous! If the season continues in this way, the level of uproar will force a change whether it's the right move or not. Fitz doing nothing will not be an option if we end up 4-8 or 5-7 with a loss to Illinois. Fans will stop buying season tickets if we finish the season averaging 14 points a game. Change for change's sake may be necessary to regenerate interest in the program.

 

[ricko654321]

How could it not be asymmetrically skewed? Lol!

My position is we have other problems to fix before we can properly assess the OC. Admittedly, I don't care for fans calling for firings - the Jerry Brown BS was ugly, calls for firing McPherson because he wasn't a D1 RB in college, were ridiculous! If the season continues in this way, the level of uproar will force a change whether it's the right move or not. Fitz doing nothing will not be an option if we end up 4-8 or 5-7 with a loss to Illinois. Fans will stop buying season tickets if we finish the season averaging 14 points a game. Change for change's sake may be necessary to regenerate interest in the program.

Well yes, that's kind of the point!

I try to be judicious in suggesting coaching changes. I certainly agree that Mick is not the only problem here by any means, and that there are talent deficiencies at certain areas that make his job hard. But I do think he is making things worse rather than better right now. The narrative is gaining traction publicly as you acknowledge also.

 

[julescat]

How could it not be asymmetrically skewed? Lol!

My position is we have other problems to fix before we can properly assess the OC. Admittedly, I don't care for fans calling for firings - the Jerry Brown BS was ugly, calls for firing McPherson because he wasn't a D1 RB in college, were ridiculous! If the season continues in this way, the level of uproar will force a change whether it's the right move or not. Fitz doing nothing will not be an option if we end up 4-8 or 5-7 with a loss to Illinois. Fans will stop buying season tickets if we finish the season averaging 14 points a game. Change for change's sake may be necessary to regenerate interest in the program.

What do you mean?? There is a game at f'cking Wrigley next season! Hooray! Line up for season tickets!

 

[evanston09]

Well yes, that's kind of the point!

I try to be judicious in suggesting coaching changes. I certainly agree that Mick is not the only problem here by any means, and that there are talent deficiencies at certain areas that make his job hard. But I do think he is making things worse rather than better right now. The narrative is gaining traction publicly as you acknowledge also.

I guess I just don’t really know why we “assume” there is a talent deficiency on offense, but we don’t assume on defense.

I went back and looked at recruiting classes from 2015-2019 and using rivals ratings (5.4,5.5 etc) (yes, this is imperfect, but it is evenly imperfect and fine as a proxy) we actually recruited a tiny bit better on offense than defense.

I don’t know if this is “actually” true, but it’s hard to definitively say we recruited worse. What is apparent, however, is that we develop talent much worse on offense than defense, so any “talent deficiency” is more likely a “skill deficiency” and that’s a coaching problem.

Maybe it’s true that we have to solve other problems before we can assess the OC, but after multiple full recruiting cycles of the same problem, maybe we actually have all the info we need for an assessment.

 

[Gladeskat]

Well yes, that's kind of the point!

I try to be judicious in suggesting coaching changes. I certainly agree that Mick is not the only problem here by any means, and that there are talent deficiencies at certain areas that make his job hard. But I do think he is making things worse rather than better right now. The narrative is gaining traction publicly as you acknowledge also.

I'm not sure it's the right move, though. We'll see how Fitz weighs these growing pressures against his loyalty and greater understanding of what's really going on within the program. Aidan Smith played admirably but he's not going to produce the explosion plays folks want for this or any other offense. And again, player miscues are what cost us the game. Mick doesn't block or throw the passes out there.

This is a disappointing season so far but we're in an interesting transition period for this program. At least I find it interesting if not satisfying, but then I find parasitic insects and my root canals, and surgical procedures to be interesting as well.

 

[corbi296]

I'm not even arguing primarily based on the results this year - I'm arguing based on the play calling process, which is highly predictable (in my opinion) and has predictably led to our QBs being put in situations where they do not have a reasonable chance at success.

I think that McCall is far from the only problem, but in order for you to maintain your stance, I think one of the following 3 things must be true:
1. You really don't think the OC makes much a difference (similar to Gladeskat's line of response that it's not the coaches)
2. You think that McCall is an above average (or even just average) P5 Offensive Coordinator in 2019 (not based on his past results, though I personally don't think those improve the case for him much)
3. You acknowledge he is a below average P5 OC, but don't think that at Northwestern we can get anyone better

Or maybe some combination of all those things? I don't think any of those is true, or at the least I think the risk-reward of dumping Mick and bringing in someone knew is asymmetrically skewed in favor of potential improvement vs the limited potential for us to get worse.

I have said repeatedly I think McCall is a very good OC. He is following Fitz’s script and is doing the best he can with the talent he currently has. When you have limited talent and experience I agree with the approach of narrowing your focus and trying to do a limited amount of things as well as possible. That makes you predictable but I believe that can be overcome by a team that executes very well. We are not there but we have a better chance of getting there with a narrow focus. The worst thing a coach can do with a struggling team with limited experience at QB is open up the playbook and ask a QB to do things he is not remotely comfortable with. That is a recipe for disaster. Instead of having a chance to win games in the 4th quarter like has been the case the last two weeks, we’d be getting blown out in every single game.

 

[corbi296]

Alabama used to play like that. Ohio St used to play like that. LSU used to play like that. Even Clemson did, to some extent. The best teams in the country, who play at the highest level, used to build from the bottom up with defense and running game, being strong, physical up front with ball control offenses that don't light up the scoreboard. Saban used to have the same offensive philosophy as Fitz does today.

When he changed his offensive philosophy by giving the reins to Lane Kiffin (which, ugh, but he's a smart play-caller), Alabama became better not worse. Bama, OSU, LSU etc have embraced modern offensive concepts and are now trying to have an exceptional offense in addition to an exceptional defense. We use some modern offensive concepts, but it does not appear that our goal is to be excellent on offense - as you imply it is to have a "tough ball control style offense that complements a dominant defense". Bama's recruiting on offense has picked up commensurately as they become a desirable place to play. On the flip side you can look at Oklahoma, a team that starts with an exceptional offense and has been trying to complement it with a decent defense - Lincoln Riley just fired DC Mike Stoops after last season and brought in a new guy. He understands that in order to compete at the highest level you need to have both sides of the ball.

I don't expect us to have an exceptional team like that on both sides of the ball all the time, that's pretty unrealistic. But it would be nice if we just acted like we expected to be good on offense, and acknowledged that the current state of affairs is not acceptable.

PS- Coaches can change. Fitz has changed in a lot of ways over the years. Even the stodgy Harbaugh attempted an offensive change by hiring Gattis a new OC this year. That obviously hasn't worked yet, but at least he is trying.

We can’t recruit like those guys. Part of the reason why Fitz wants to play this style of ball is because it is easier for us to recruit players on both sides of the ball that fit his style.

 

[julescat]

We can’t recruit like those guys. Part of the reason why Fitz wants to play this style of ball is because it is easier for us to recruit players on both sides of the ball that fit his style.

Wait a second. He has his resort facilities now. What a joke.

 

[NU Line]

I have said repeatedly I think McCall is a very good OC. He is following Fitz’s script and is doing the best he can with the talent he currently has. When you have limited talent and experience I agree with the approach of narrowing your focus and trying to do a limited amount of things as well as possible. That makes you predictable but I believe that can be overcome by a team that executes very well. We are not there but we have a better chance of getting there with a narrow focus. The worst thing a coach can do with a struggling team with limited experience at QB is open up the playbook and ask a QB to do things he is not remotely comfortable with. That is a recipe for disaster. Instead of having a chance to win games in the 4th quarter like has been the case the last two weeks, we’d be getting blown out in every single game.

Corbi,

I respect your opinions on this forum but disagree on McCall being a great OC. I am not one to routinely call for the firing of coaches and the last coach I wanted fired was Greg Colby but I would like for McCall to be replaced. Limited experience at QB in this day and age falls on the OC/QB Coach for not having the guys ready. I am watching multiple QBs enter new systems as transfers and succeeding. More true freshman are playing than ever. There have also been tons of injuries in the college football landscape with the back-ups coming in and stepping up.

Our offensive recruiting has been on par with our defensive recruiting yet we have been fielding competitive defenses under Hank. When we lose several cornerbacks or all-stars like Anthony Walker to injury, the next guy steps up. If our offense is too complicated then McCall has to either get everyone ready or simplify our offense. Aidan is a redshirt Junior (this is his 4th year) and Hunter is in his 3rd year already.

 

[corbi296]

Wait a second. He has his resort facilities now. What a joke.

So what? You think facilities were the missing link between NU and the likes of Alabama, OSU, Clemson, Georgia? Please come back down to reality.

 

[corbi296]

Corbi,

I respect your opinions on this forum but disagree on McCall being a great OC. I am not one to routinely call for the firing of coaches and the last coach I wanted fired was Greg Colby but I would like for McCall to be replaced. Limited experience at QB in this day and age falls on the OC/QB Coach for not having the guys ready. I am watching multiple QBs enter new systems as transfers and succeeding. More true freshman are playing than ever. There have also been tons of injuries in the college football landscape with the back-ups coming in and stepping up.

Our offensive recruiting has been on par with our defensive recruiting yet we have been fielding competitive defenses under Hank. When we lose several cornerbacks or all-stars like Anthony Walker to injury, the next guy steps up. If our offense is too complicated then McCall has to either get everyone ready or simplify our offense. Aidan is a redshirt Junior (this is his 4th year) and Hunter is in his 3rd year already.

We haven’t landed one of our A list QBs out of HS since Clayton Thorson. That spans five recruiting classes. Those failures along with 10 years of subpar OL recruiting and development are coming home to roost right now. If we had landed a guy like Josh Jackson, a dual threat whom we recruited very hard, we’d probably be sitting at 4-1 right now.

 

[ColumbusCatFan1]

If the offense is too complicated then McCall has to...or simplify our offense

I think the staff has done just that as the season has progressed.

The Cats aren’t running much the WR boundary/bubble screen game, jet sweep packages or deep corners routes. The speed option is infrequently called and we all saw what happened when Wisconsin blitzed a RPO .

I’m not saying that McCall doesn’t deserve criticism (he does), but there is a limit to what he can call if the players are unable to execute cleanly in practice (see Fitz’s press commentary).

Hopefully, the offense is closer than we think and the bye gives them a chance to clean up their act (there is some precedent for this).

 

[EvanstonCat]

So what? You think facilities were the missing link between NU and the likes of Alabama, OSU, Clemson, Georgia? Please come back down to reality.

What reality are you living in? At this point, I’d be happy if our offense were performing at the level of an Indiana or a Western Michigan.

 

[EvanstonCat]

We haven’t landed one of our A list QBs out of HS since Clayton Thorson. That spans five recruiting classes. Those failures along with 10 years of subpar OL recruiting and development are coming home to roost right now. If we had landed a guy like Josh Jackson, a dual threat whom we recruited very hard, we’d probably be sitting at 4-1 right now.

We have a 5 star talent in Hunter Johnson.

Aren’t you the guy who said that if Justin Fields played for us behind this OL, we’d do just as bad?

 

[Gladeskat]

I guess I just don’t really know why we “assume” there is a talent deficiency on offense, but we don’t assume on defense.

I went back and looked at recruiting classes from 2015-2019 and using rivals ratings (5.4,5.5 etc) (yes, this is imperfect, but it is evenly imperfect and fine as a proxy) we actually recruited a tiny bit better on offense than defense.

I don’t know if this is “actually” true, but it’s hard to definitively say we recruited worse. What is apparent, however, is that we develop talent much worse on offense than defense, so any “talent deficiency” is more likely a “skill deficiency” and that’s a coaching problem.

Maybe it’s true that we have to solve other problems before we can assess the OC, but after multiple full recruiting cycles of the same problem, maybe we actually have all the info we need for an assessment.

Corbi,

I respect your opinions on this forum but disagree on McCall being a great OC. I am not one to routinely call for the firing of coaches and the last coach I wanted fired was Greg Colby but I would like for McCall to be replaced. Limited experience at QB in this day and age falls on the OC/QB Coach for not having the guys ready. I am watching multiple QBs enter new systems as transfers and succeeding. More true freshman are playing than ever. There have also been tons of injuries in the college football landscape with the back-ups coming in and stepping up.

Our offensive recruiting has been on par with our defensive recruiting yet we have been fielding competitive defenses under Hank. When we lose several cornerbacks or all-stars like Anthony Walker to injury, the next guy steps up. If our offense is too complicated then McCall has to either get everyone ready or simplify our offense. Aidan is a redshirt Junior (this is his 4th year) and Hunter is in his 3rd year already.

Nice post. However, I disagree with the relative talent on offense vs defense. IMO, Fitz has stocked the defense with better talent. Below I compare our best players recruited from 2006 to 2016 at OL vs DL and at WR vs DB. These represent complementary pairs of offensive and defensive positions that require athletes of similar size and stature. Players who made an NFL 53-man roster are in bold, while practice squad players are underlined.

Top OL recruited during this period include: Netter, Burkett, Mulroe, Thomas, Doles, Slater, Vitabile, Ward, Hance. Represents 5 positions - no one made a 53-man roster. Netter and Hance made practice squads.

Top DL recruited during this period include: Bryant, Wootton, QWilliams, Scott, Lowry, Arnfelt, McEvilly, Kuhar, Lancaster, Thompson, Gaziano, Odenigbo, Gibson, VBrowne, EBrown. Four positions - Six NFLers, five with multi-year careers already plus likely future draft choices in Gaziano and EBrown.

Same with WR: Stewart, Ebert, Carr, Nagel, Lawrence, CJones, TJones, RC-Bowman, Lees, Skowronek. Three positions, three NFL players

Same with DB: McManis, Peters, Phillips, Igwebiuke, Campbell, Mabin, Pace, VanHoose, Harris, TWilliams, Hartage, Ruiz, EWilson, THenry, Watkins, Newsome. Four positions - six NFL roster players including EWilson, plus one on practice squad so far, Harris had legit NFL ability but retired from football.

In summary, These positions are complimentary (WR-DB, OL-DL) and represent generally 8 players each on offense and defense. I highlight NFL roster and PS players because they represent our top blocking and playmaking talent. If my figuring is correct the offense (WR and OL) yielded 3 NFL roster players + 2 NFL practice squad players. The defense (DL and DB's) produced 12 NFL roster players + 1 NFL practice squad player. It's pretty clear to me that there has been more top, NFL-caliber talent on our DL relative to our OL, and the same is true among DB's vs WR's.

The quality of a player exiting the program represents both their incoming ability and subsequent development at NU. Star ratings aren't of much value for assessing incoming talent because of their changing standards and poor predictability of success, so I won't bother looking at star ratings here. Guys like McManis and Vitale were studs coming out of high school regardless of their ridiculous star ratings.

Most people here seem to feel that the difference in performance between our offense and defense reflects differences in coaching quality and not talent. It's my opinion that we have had better talent assigned to these positions on defense than those complementary positions on offense. This is reflected in the number of NFL players produced on offense vs defense at these positions (3 offensive vs 12 defensive NFL players) and that talent differential largely explains the underperformance of our offense at those positions over the past decade relative to their complementary positions on defense.

I believe this difference reflects Fitz's desire to have better talent of D rather than on O. Of course, differences in the quality of coaches at these offensive and defensive positions may also help to explain their relative success. The notable lack of performance and NFL caliber talent on the OL suggests this may be the case here. Hopefully, Anderson can improve our incoming talent and development down the road.

* * * * * * *
​

Extra credit:
Same with Offensive Backs: Persa, TSiemian, Thorson, Colter, TGreene, Trumpy, VMark, TSutton, Vault, JJackson, WMLong, Dunsmore, Vitale, Dickerson, Green. Five NFL roster players, 2 NFL PS.

Same with Defensive LB: Davie, MWilliams, Proby, Ariguzo, Ellis, Nwabuisi, AWalker, NHall, Fisher, Gallagher, JJones, Two NFL roster players, 1 NFL PS player, plus Fisher, Gallagher.

Looking at all positions on offense and defense, the defense has produced 14 NFL roster players plus 2 PS players during this period (16 total) while the offense has only produced 8 NFL roster players plus 4 PS players (12 total).

Sorry for the long, tortuous writing. Please suggest any significant players I may have missed​

 

[NU Line]

Nice post. However, I disagree with the relative talent on offense vs defense. IMO, Fitz has stocked the defense with better talent. Below I compare our best players recruited from 2006 to 2016 at OL vs DL and at WR vs DB. These represent complementary pairs of offensive and defensive positions that require athletes of similar size and stature. Players who made an NFL 53-man roster are in bold, while practice squad players are underlined.

Top OL recruited during this period include: Netter, Burkett, Mulroe, Thomas, Doles, Slater, Vitabile, Ward, Hance. Represents 5 positions - no one made a 53-man roster. Netter and Hance made practice squads.

Top DL recruited during this period include: Bryant, Wootton, QWilliams, Scott, Lowry, Arnfelt, McEvilly, Kuhar, Lancaster, Thompson, Gaziano, Odenigbo, Gibson, VBrowne, EBrown. Four positions - Six NFLers, five with multi-year careers already plus likely future draft choices in Gaziano and EBrown.

Same with WR: Stewart, Ebert, Carr, Nagel, Lawrence, CJones, TJones, RC-Bowman, Lees, Skowronek. Three positions, three NFL players

Same with DB: McManis, Peters, Phillips, Igwebiuke, Campbell, Mabin, Pace, VanHoose, Harris, TWilliams, Hartage, Ruiz, EWilson, THenry, Watkins, Newsome. Four positions - six NFL roster players including EWilson, plus one on practice squad so far, Harris had legit NFL ability but retired from football.

In summary, These positions are complimentary (WR-DB, OL-DL) and represent generally 8 players each on offense and defense. I highlight NFL roster and PS players because they represent our top blocking and playmaking talent. If my figuring is correct the offense (WR and OL) yielded 3 NFL roster players + 2 NFL practice squad players. The defense (DL and DB's) produced 12 NFL roster players + 1 NFL practice squad player. It's pretty clear to me that there has been more top, NFL-caliber talent on our DL relative to our OL, and the same is true among DB's vs WR's.

The quality of a player exiting the program represents both their incoming ability and subsequent development at NU. Star ratings aren't of much value for assessing incoming talent because of their changing standards and poor predictability of success, so I won't bother looking at star ratings here. Guys like McManis and Vitale were studs coming out of high school regardless of their ridiculous star ratings.

Most people here seem to feel that the difference in performance between our offense and defense reflects differences in coaching quality and not talent. It's my opinion that we have had better talent assigned to these positions on defense than those complementary positions on offense. This is reflected in the number of NFL players produced on offense vs defense at these positions (3 offensive vs 12 defensive NFL players) and that talent differential largely explains the underperformance of our offense at those positions over the past decade relative to their complementary positions on defense.

I believe this difference reflects Fitz's desire to have better talent of D rather than on O. Of course, differences in the quality of coaches at these offensive and defensive positions may also help to explain their relative success. The notable lack of performance and NFL caliber talent on the OL suggests this may be the case here. Hopefully, Anderson can improve our incoming talent and development down the road.

* * * * * * *
​

Extra credit:
Same with Offensive Backs: Persa, TSiemian, Thorson, Colter, TGreene, Trumpy, VMark, TSutton, Vault, JJackson, WMLong, Dunsmore, Vitale, Dickerson, Green. Five NFL roster players, 2 NFL PS.

Same with Defensive LB: Davie, MWilliams, Proby, Ariguzo, Ellis, Nwabuisi, AWalker, NHall, Fisher, Gallagher, JJones, Two NFL roster players, 1 NFL PS player, plus Fisher, Gallagher.

Looking at all positions on offense and defense, the defense has produced 14 NFL roster players plus 2 PS players during this period (16 total) while the offense has only produced 8 NFL roster players plus 4 PS players (12 total).

Sorry for the long, tortuous writing. Please suggest any significant players I may have missed​

Thanks for putting this together. I do agree with you that we have had some players who can play offense and defense that either chose or were encouraged to play on the defensive side of the ball and they have had better players. Godwin and Matt Harris could have been talented WRs and Tyler Lancaster may have made a great offensive lineman. I also believe that the number of defensive players in the NFL outweighs the offensive due to development. Many of those guys names listed above such as Wootton, Odenigbo, Joseph Jones, etc came in as very scrawny athletes who developed well. That development is a credit to their coaches (both positional and strength and conditioning)

Unfortunately, even with talented QBs who have made the NFL in Clayton and Trevor, our offense has not finished In the top half of the big ten or even the top half of D1 FBS teams.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

We haven’t landed one of our A list QBs out of HS since Clayton Thorson. That spans five recruiting classes. Those failures along with 10 years of subpar OL recruiting and development are coming home to roost right now. If we had landed a guy like Josh Jackson, a dual threat whom we recruited very hard, we’d probably be sitting at 4-1 right now.

We have the highest rated QB NU has ever had. Hunter was much higher regarded than Jackson. You know well as anyone he has far more talent than the other QB’s on the roster. McCall hasn’t taken advantage of that. That’s his job. Blaming the player for not picking up his complex offense shouldn’t be happening. Taylor your offense to fit your personal. Who needs/wants a highly complex offense that is always in the lower half of P5 offenses and now is at historically low production.

 

[corbi296]

We have a 5 star talent in Hunter Johnson.

Aren’t you the guy who said that if Justin Fields played for us behind this OL, we’d do just as bad?

Screw your five stars. If you bothered to actually watch him play now instead of running around like a chicken with his head cut off you would be able to see that the game is moving too fast for him to be very effective right now, particularly with our OL. He needs time.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

Nice post. However, I disagree with the relative talent on offense vs defense. IMO, Fitz has stocked the defense with better talent. Below I compare our best players recruited from 2006 to 2016 at OL vs DL and at WR vs DB. These represent complementary pairs of offensive and defensive positions that require athletes of similar size and stature. Players who made an NFL 53-man roster are in bold, while practice squad players are underlined.

Top OL recruited during this period include: Netter, Burkett, Mulroe, Thomas, Doles, Slater, Vitabile, Ward, Hance. Represents 5 positions - no one made a 53-man roster. Netter and Hance made practice squads.

Top DL recruited during this period include: Bryant, Wootton, QWilliams, Scott, Lowry, Arnfelt, McEvilly, Kuhar, Lancaster, Thompson, Gaziano, Odenigbo, Gibson, VBrowne, EBrown. Four positions - Six NFLers, five with multi-year careers already plus likely future draft choices in Gaziano and EBrown.

Same with WR: Stewart, Ebert, Carr, Nagel, Lawrence, CJones, TJones, RC-Bowman, Lees, Skowronek. Three positions, three NFL players

Same with DB: McManis, Peters, Phillips, Igwebiuke, Campbell, Mabin, Pace, VanHoose, Harris, TWilliams, Hartage, Ruiz, EWilson, THenry, Watkins, Newsome. Four positions - six NFL roster players including EWilson, plus one on practice squad so far, Harris had legit NFL ability but retired from football.

In summary, These positions are complimentary (WR-DB, OL-DL) and represent generally 8 players each on offense and defense. I highlight NFL roster and PS players because they represent our top blocking and playmaking talent. If my figuring is correct the offense (WR and OL) yielded 3 NFL roster players + 2 NFL practice squad players. The defense (DL and DB's) produced 12 NFL roster players + 1 NFL practice squad player. It's pretty clear to me that there has been more top, NFL-caliber talent on our DL relative to our OL, and the same is true among DB's vs WR's.

The quality of a player exiting the program represents both their incoming ability and subsequent development at NU. Star ratings aren't of much value for assessing incoming talent because of their changing standards and poor predictability of success, so I won't bother looking at star ratings here. Guys like McManis and Vitale were studs coming out of high school regardless of their ridiculous star ratings.

Most people here seem to feel that the difference in performance between our offense and defense reflects differences in coaching quality and not talent. It's my opinion that we have had better talent assigned to these positions on defense than those complementary positions on offense. This is reflected in the number of NFL players produced on offense vs defense at these positions (3 offensive vs 12 defensive NFL players) and that talent differential largely explains the underperformance of our offense at those positions over the past decade relative to their complementary positions on defense.

I believe this difference reflects Fitz's desire to have better talent of D rather than on O. Of course, differences in the quality of coaches at these offensive and defensive positions may also help to explain their relative success. The notable lack of performance and NFL caliber talent on the OL suggests this may be the case here. Hopefully, Anderson can improve our incoming talent and development down the road.

* * * * * * *
​

Extra credit:
Same with Offensive Backs: Persa, TSiemian, Thorson, Colter, TGreene, Trumpy, VMark, TSutton, Vault, JJackson, WMLong, Dunsmore, Vitale, Dickerson, Green. Five NFL roster players, 2 NFL PS.

Same with Defensive LB: Davie, MWilliams, Proby, Ariguzo, Ellis, Nwabuisi, AWalker, NHall, Fisher, Gallagher, JJones, Two NFL roster players, 1 NFL PS player, plus Fisher, Gallagher.

Looking at all positions on offense and defense, the defense has produced 14 NFL roster players plus 2 PS players during this period (16 total) while the offense has only produced 8 NFL roster players plus 4 PS players (12 total).

Sorry for the long, tortuous writing. Please suggest any significant players I may have missed​

Nice work Glades, I’ll Be the first to admit your NU parchment puts you in a class above me. However, I am not following how NFL players makes your argument work. Couldn’t it just as easily be flipped to say the coaching staff develops raw talents into NFL material. That’s NU’s pitch in recruiting isn’t it. Play in the league and if not you have a great degree?

Both the 2019 class and the incoming 2020 class ( hopefully it sticks) are heavily weighted at the top towards the offense. If more defensive players from these classes play in the league will we continue to make the argument that the Defense gets better talent coming in?

My point is I see no logical explanation for the disparity in performance. It is not like we see a plethora or studs joining the team each year on D and a parade of bums being signed for O.

 

[corbi296]

We have the highest rated QB NU has ever had. Hunter was much higher regarded than Jackson. You know well as anyone he has far more talent than the other QB’s on the roster. McCall hasn’t taken advantage of that. That’s his job. Blaming the player for not picking up his complex offense shouldn’t be happening. Taylor your offense to fit your personal. Who needs/wants a highly complex offense that is always in the lower half of P5 offenses and now is at historically low production.

Star ratings don't mean jack shit. Its about time you guys realized it. Johnson has the physical tools but needs time for the game to slow down for him. That's especially the case given our OL. If He had the luxury of sitting back there for 4-5 seconds on every drop back I am sure he would me way more effective but right now he does not even have half that amount of time.

 

[Oldcajunback]

Interesting thread. I’m sorry you guys are struggling greatly on offense. I don’t believe that your offensive coordinator is awful. I also don’t believe that your talent on the Oline, QB, WR is below average in any way. I believe you have a rather complicated offense that defenses have figured out. I haven’t seen any significant modifications in your offense in the years I’ve watched them. As you know, coaches on both sides of the ball are constantly talking to each other. One team shut your offense down a few years back with average talent - Duke. They did it several years in a row. Coaches look at the film of that game and may contact Duke coaches to find out what they did. Knowing this, your coaches need to modify the offense. Maybe they have modified the offense, but it doesn’t look like it and/or it’s not working.
Some teams run the same offense every year - service academies, Wisconsin and some would say, Alabama. They recruit talent that fits their system and they innovate more than many believe.
If your offense isn’t working, it’s the coaches job to have an offense that fits the talent you recruited. You just don’t have 8-10 recruiting mistakes on your Oline. I looked at your roster and notice most of these guys have been in the system for several years. Coaches should know what talent they have and make changes. You can’t just depend on “getting better” because everyone is working on “getting better”. I remember in 2000, your coaches saw the talent they had and put in an innovative offense. Not only did you win, you changed college football. I believe you offensive coordinator has been good in the past. But he may be suffering from tradition unmarred by progress.
I understand why some here blame the talent. The goal is to make sure you keep your verbals. Your worry is that verbals will bolt with coaching change. Whether or not that is true depends on the recruit. I don’t like blaming players because they work so hard and I’m sure they already don’t feel great. Saying coaching is fine puts the blame on 18-21 year olds not the leaders who brought them there.
Coaches get paid to take the blame, some of it warranted, some of it not. Fitzgerald is a great coach. He keeps almost everything close to the vest. He seems to love his players, his coaches and your school. I’m sure the 1-4 record is harder on him than anyone else. I would be very surprised if you have a losing season and Fitzgerald doesn’t make some significant visible changes. You May believe he is stubborn but he’s not stupid.

 

[Gladeskat]

Nice work Glades, I’ll Be the first to admit your NU parchment puts you in a class above me. However, I am not following how NFL players makes your argument work. Couldn’t it just as easily be flipped to say the coaching staff develops raw talents into NFL material. That’s NU’s pitch in recruiting isn’t it. Play in the league and if not you have a great degree?

Both the 2019 class and the incoming 2020 class ( hopefully it sticks) are heavily weighted at the top towards the offense. If more defensive players from these classes play in the league will we continue to make the argument that the Defense gets better talent coming in?

My point is I see no logical explanation for the disparity in performance. It is not like we see a plethora or studs joining the team each year on D and a parade of bums being signed for O.

First of all, I didn't graduate from NU. I transferred after my junior season and graduated from Wheaton College.

Yes, you can place the blame entirely on the coaching staff...but look at the athletes we put on offense and defense! Look at the number of people who were star O players in high school and recruited mainly to be offensive players by other schools that were switched to defense. Lancaster was a Center and hardly played DL in high school until his senior season. He's the BEST OL talent we've brought into the program during this period, IMO... he was switched to defense. Iggie, Campbell, and Mabin were star RB's recruited to be DB's. Some were better RB's than the actual RB talent we had at that time. Right down the line, it looks like Fitz has favored and stocked the defense. If you and others cannot see this difference, then I don't have much more to say about this.

Yes, coaching could definitely explain these differences, but the talent differential is much more apparent to me.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

Right on Old Cajun.