You could add Hearn as a guy who was a marginal contributor till his Sr season
Point Guards
- Thread starter mikewebb68
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And I feel you are giving way too much credit to Bobs position. As you say, Simpson runs the show for Mich. He is on the floor for 34 mpg. Which meas Brooks when he is in is often in a secondary role. Happ for Wisc has a high assist to turnover ratio as well but hard to see him as that guard just because.
No doubt we are shorter in the position than normal and anyone would like but it was do to a strange combination of events that occurred at exactly the wrong time with Lathon pulling whatever he did so late in the process and then having things compounded with the injury to Ash. If Lathon had come and Ash healthy we would have had at least 3 guards that would have met one criteria or another. Them being Lathon Ash and Gaines. (with Turner as a backup and additional ball handing in Law and even Taylor) We would have been in solid shape.
Speaking of Simpson, MSU used the Collins strategy yesterday and allowed him to jack up 3's. Which of course he missed. He just isn't a good 3 point shooter yet but can be induced to toss them up even when they aren't falling.
WHile in general, you do not want to have to depend on Bigs as Frosh, BB is like FB in that skill players (more athletic) are more able to contribute as Frosh. In FB, it is DBs, WR and RB. In BB that can be PG/LG or maybe even 2/3. Think of the guys we have had start as Frosh. PGs such as Parker, Thompson, Sobo and BMac. and it is almost the exception that they don't start. On the 2/3 front, you have Shyurna, Coble, VV, Law But other positions, not so much as they need to develop more physically in order to compete.
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You could add many, many more that remained marginal contributors in their Sr year.
If my aunt had balls...
When Plan A relies on a true frosh and a guy that has not shown he has the talent to play in B1G, the plan is poor.
When there really is no Plan B, the planning is poorer.
We will simply have to agree to disagree.
True frosh simply don't have the muscle and stamina for a power 5 season. Some do - they are the exception. BMac freshman season would be the perfect example.
Then, true frosh are ready for the speed of the game in a Power 5 conference. Some do - they are the exceptions - see BMac.
To rely on a non- 1 & done true frosh to beat all these odds is asking for trouble.
In about the last 20 years, we have had at least 5 examples at PG at NU that started the position as Frosh under three different HCs. Newman, Parker, Thompson, Sobo and BMac. Between them, their careers represent about 80-90% of the starting PG years at the position. The ones that have not started 4 years here include Newman who transferred, Parker who went Pro and Sobo who was replaced by BMac as CCC was a HC. Have to say that the top PG that did not start as a true Frosh is the exception rather than the rule. I have just listed 5 exceptions for one position just at NU
How many were all B1G in their freshman year? How many were all BIG FROSH selections?
Talk about nonsense criteria. What does that mater and why should that be even a question. The question should be whether they are helping the team. That 5 of them started their entire Frosh year indicates they were helping the team. BMac was not unique. How many of our players are All BIG in their career and you want to put in the criteria that they are ALL BIG as FROSH?
Well, the answer is, from the 2018-19 NU media guide:
BIG TEN
ALL-FRESHMAN TEAM
First awarded by the coaches in 2003.
2006 Craig Moore
2007 Kevin Coble
2010 Drew Crawford
2012 Dave Sobolewski
2015 Bryant McIntosh
Which means that of those I listed that were eligible, only Michael Thompson was not. Newman and Parker were before they had the award. 67% So not the rarity IGNORE would suggest. And there are only 5 on the All BIG Frosh team in any year.
The question is whether as Frosh they can help the team at the position. And the answer for all 5 is yes
Yes, hardly any freshmen at even the traditional BB powers like MSU & MI, make all BIG. Thompson, Sobo & Mac are all good examples of very good contributors at PG without being all BIG. Unless you can get one & dones, you won't see frosh PGs as all conference and it's silly to claim that it's reasonable for NU with it's admissions requirements to expect frosh all BIGs.
He did add Frosh All BIG but while, including HM, there are about 25 guys that can claim some ALL BIG notoriety, there are only 5 slots on that board.
Haywood, I just want to thank you for always being a voice of reason around here!
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is King.
Haywood is the only one here who knows of what he speaks. The rest of us are just spouting uninformed opinions.
Remembered him becoming fairly lethal in conference his junior season then battling injuries his senior year.
I gotta say, @IGNORE kept going to the rhetorical well and eventually lost the debate.
I shall win it for him!
Thesis: Good programs don’t have a steady string of freshmen point guards who start for four years. Good programs recruit a pipeline, and have actual backups.
It was a colossal miss coming into this season to plan for Lathon with no true backup plan.
Counter argument, from @hdhntr1 : Yeah , but look at what Northwestern’s done for two decades : Frosh Newman to Frosh Parker to Frosh Juice to Frosh Sobo to Frosh Mc...
As-yet-unstated, winning counter argument: NORTHWESTERN BASKETBALL FROM BASICALLY EVER, including the era that started with Newman, IS A CRAP PROGRAM. We love it, but basically the best strategy to build a basketball program is to do the EXACT OPPOSITE of whatever Northwestern basketball — the worst major program in college history, and a program that I love deeply — has done.
Fin.
I shall win it for him!
Thesis: Good programs don’t have a steady string of freshmen point guards who start for four years. Good programs recruit a pipeline, and have actual backups.
It was a colossal miss coming into this season to plan for Lathon with no true backup plan.
Counter argument, from @hdhntr1 : Yeah , but look at what Northwestern’s done for two decades : Frosh Newman to Frosh Parker to Frosh Juice to Frosh Sobo to Frosh Mc...
As-yet-unstated, winning counter argument: NORTHWESTERN BASKETBALL FROM BASICALLY EVER, including the era that started with Newman, IS A CRAP PROGRAM. We love it, but basically the best strategy to build a basketball program is to do the EXACT OPPOSITE of whatever Northwestern basketball — the worst major program in college history, and a program that I love deeply — has done.
Fin.
just caught this....believe Bob went to the same HS as Nash....that one hurt Mike
Newman was a Freshman in 1997. Parker was a Freshman in 2002. The media started giving the award in 2003.
Duh.
And Juice? Eric Gordon (Indy) and Manny Harris (UM) were the Freshman All Big 10 Guards. Eric was also First Team All Big 10, and Manny Second Team. Tough for Juice to top that.
....so Haywood is on record saying that the bar for Boo in on the same level as Lathon? I sincerely hope so and I'll remember this thread. If he's anything close to Talor Battle (who incidently also was a freshman the same year Juice was) I'll take it, but that's certainly a tall order
Check it but I think he said Buie will start in all probability, Greer will backup and maybe more than that, plus a fifth year guy.
Newman and Parker were before they even had the Frosh All BIG team. The fact is that all 5 ran the team effectively as Frosh. And 2 of the three eligible were named to the All Frosh BIG team. And many think that Juice as a Frosh was as good as the other two.
Your original criteria was that a Frosh PG was not ready to take the reigns in the BIG. I gave you a list of 5 that started from the first game of their true Frosh year just for NU and all had performed very well. So then you changed the criteria to "Were they All BIG" . A ridiculous ask. And then All BIG Frosh of which two of the three eligible were and the third was Juice who played very well as a Frosh. Did they improve from their Frosh years? Yes but don't most players at any position improve from when they first started?
And I will say that most any program will have a hard time getting a quality PG if they don't have real minutes for them in short order. They have one guy running the show and a second guy that generally can function in dual roles (giving them the minutes) who can spell them. (I would list IA as a big exception but I would suggest it is primarily because the "backup" is the coaches son who never would have been there otherwise) With Lathon, Ash plus Turner and Gaines it would have been a very reasonable plan for this year. Even without Lathon and Ash, we have been pretty close so have to imagine that that having Lathon and Ash would have made a huge difference and even just having Lathon would have been pretty big. Having just Ash would likely have helped and meant a few more wins
We are still a developing program trying to get to being a good one. There are bumps along the way. But I do not know how you have a plan B for the combination of events that occurred with Lathon going away, the Ash injury and Brown not working out and departing. As far as recruiting another PG during the BMac reign, it is not as if CCC and company did not try but BMac's success stood in the way of getting a true PG. And as far as going forward, we are likely in a better position in that we have Greer a year older and another ball handler coming in. And if Buie starts, it would be another true frosh taking the reigns albeit with a backup in Greer. He is also going after several LG types in the next couple of classes as well
I was ready to run the team as a true frosh. You would not have been happy with my results.
A very weak thread. OSU and MSU are not good examples of the best balance here. Maryland has a really good thing going, and is the prime example of point guard recruiting in the conference. Cowen came in while Melo Trimble was still playing and both backed him up and spelled him. Now that he's a senior they have a fine replacement filling the same role. Michigan seems to be in the same place. Simpson was just an athlete with very little game his first year. This replacement in waiting (name escapes me) seems a lot better at this stage. Damn it.
MSU: Langford is not a primary ballhandler. He was more of a wing forward with McQuaid at the 2 before he was hurt. Henry took over for Langford, mostly. Loyer, MSU's frosh, has a lot of similarities with Greer in my view. Loyer is just too small and not ready, but he was Michigan's Mr. Basketball last year and might find his place in the future. Greer is bigger and stronger, but younger. Both have a lot of upside, but Greer might have more if his shot shows up. Both just need to see the game faster and better, which comes with experience.
MSU: Langford is not a primary ballhandler. He was more of a wing forward with McQuaid at the 2 before he was hurt. Henry took over for Langford, mostly. Loyer, MSU's frosh, has a lot of similarities with Greer in my view. Loyer is just too small and not ready, but he was Michigan's Mr. Basketball last year and might find his place in the future. Greer is bigger and stronger, but younger. Both have a lot of upside, but Greer might have more if his shot shows up. Both just need to see the game faster and better, which comes with experience.
do you think it is the norm? i think they are the outliers and as i have said MOST power 5 non-blue blood teams will plummet if the main 30 min a game ball handler never arrives or misses the season. again, Greer was recruited to back-up lathon. for 2019/2020. this roster was to have lathon and ash. and ash and brown backed up bmac.
a scenario with lathon at 26-30 min and the rest of our roster would have been fine and more the norm for non-blue bloods in my opinion. administration took that roster away from these cats, and ultimately crushed the season for law and pardon.
now you can talk about the skill set of players - but that goes hand in hand with a player being able to handle big ten competition and be allowed admissions into NU. i like greer but a roster full of greers won't get it done in the big ten either.
i believe we will see boo, greer, and a 5th year able to handle the ball so hopefully we won't see this again.
also - if the administration said in December lathon wasn't going to be allowed to NU then at least the coaches have a chance to recover. the timing screwed Law and Pardon's senior years and I feel bad for those 2 kids for all they have given NU.
are you counting walk-ons and guys who do not play (or are capable to play) as primary ball-handlers for 30 min a game even if they are listed as a PG?
going off the link that was listed....
for instance - if we had Lathon listed as a PG and also Ash, and Malnati
I don't see how that is different from:
iowa who has listed bohanon, mcaffery (who IMO is not a 30 min a game primary ball handler) and a walk-on
MSU who has listed winston, loyer (who is a career back up in my opinion) and a walk-on
Minn who has listed carr, washington, and conroy (NONE WHO PLAYED A MINUTE AGAINST US)
PSU plays bolton who play similar minutes to turner and bolton scores 4 more points pergame but has a worse ass/TO ratio than turner, and they play wheeler who is a high energy guard like lathon would be for us. (stats wise this would be like having lathon and turner or gaines on the floor in my opinion)
PU plays carson edwards and their listed back-up has only played in 7 games
IU has phinisee and a walk-on listed
having Lathon on the roster and the rest of our players as compliments would make our roster (and half of the league as listed above) very similar in that regard
The original premise that started this all was hdhntr’s assertion that it is not possible to recruit a point guard if you’ve got one on the roster.
This is an untrue statement.
Northwestern has failed at recruiting the point guard position because Northwestern has failed at recruiting the point guard position.
As a result of this, Northwestern wasted the senior seasons of two all-time greats in program history, and wasted all the momentum that came from building a new arena.
You can quibble with the facts and hedge one way or another, and drop well, actuallys all you want, but Northwestern’s only option this season - if everything went as planned - is a guy who has almost as many turnovers as assists while shooting 40% (he would’ve been a program fit!) in whatever conference UTEP is in.
It’s atypical of even decent college programs, and is a total failure.
This is an untrue statement.
Northwestern has failed at recruiting the point guard position because Northwestern has failed at recruiting the point guard position.
As a result of this, Northwestern wasted the senior seasons of two all-time greats in program history, and wasted all the momentum that came from building a new arena.
You can quibble with the facts and hedge one way or another, and drop well, actuallys all you want, but Northwestern’s only option this season - if everything went as planned - is a guy who has almost as many turnovers as assists while shooting 40% (he would’ve been a program fit!) in whatever conference UTEP is in.
It’s atypical of even decent college programs, and is a total failure.
i literally just showed you how it is not atypical and is standard for half the conference.
know what MSU has planned for next year? Loyer aka Greer + an incoming frosh aka boo
If MSU denies their kid admission 2 months before the start of the season or the kid gets hurt - does this mean that Izzo fails to recruit the point guard position?
No. It means they’ll have a top 100 recruit that they offered when he was 14 ready to take over.
Meanwhile, and I’m sure VerbalCommits is not complete, but NU is so confident in Buie that they have 6 offers out for that position in the next class.
Ultimately, @haywood jahblowme , I hope your opinion doesn’t echo the program’s opinion. A few times lately you - an insider - have dropped ‘blame the administration’ excuses. A recent admittance not granted, and now sitting on whatever Lathon did for five months.
The administration didn’t force NU to use (all estimates) only 11 scholarships or recruit 8 guys at the same position or stake their season on two grad transfers (one a failure and one elsewhere) or offer Vassar or offer Brown or enter next season with nobody who has ever scored double-digits in D1 (pending the grad transfer market, I guess).
Go Cats.
Meanwhile, and I’m sure VerbalCommits is not complete, but NU is so confident in Buie that they have 6 offers out for that position in the next class.
Ultimately, @haywood jahblowme , I hope your opinion doesn’t echo the program’s opinion. A few times lately you - an insider - have dropped ‘blame the administration’ excuses. A recent admittance not granted, and now sitting on whatever Lathon did for five months.
The administration didn’t force NU to use (all estimates) only 11 scholarships or recruit 8 guys at the same position or stake their season on two grad transfers (one a failure and one elsewhere) or offer Vassar or offer Brown or enter next season with nobody who has ever scored double-digits in D1 (pending the grad transfer market, I guess).
Go Cats.
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PG per verbal commits:
ACC: (same as Big 10 - half the teams set up like NU)
BC - 1 + 2 WO
clem - 2 seniors (1 incoming frosh ---- 1 incoming frosh?!!?!?!?)
duke - tre jones and some guy who plays 7 min a game and a WO
FSU - 2 seniors (1 incoming frosh ---- 1 incoming frosh?!!?!?!?)
GT - 1 + 1 WO
UNC -1 + back up (10 min game) + WO
ND - 1 guy with no WO
Big 12:
BU - 1 senior and 1 transfer sitting out
KSU - one 30 min game and one 9 min game
Okla - 1 senior and 1 transfer sitting out
TT - 1 (mooney listed as SG)
i don't feel like going through anymore
also if you are really concerned about asst/TO you should look at the minutes played and assist TO for those 3 conferences because i just did and MOST of the guys listed as PGs and playing 20+ min do not have more than 1.5 asst per game
as far as minutes and asst/to carson edwards has 3 asst/3.2 turnovers in 40 minutes but i think we would all take that. yeah the defenses are better, but so are the play makers on his team
easy link here for stats http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/251
ACC: (same as Big 10 - half the teams set up like NU)
BC - 1 + 2 WO
clem - 2 seniors (1 incoming frosh ---- 1 incoming frosh?!!?!?!?)
duke - tre jones and some guy who plays 7 min a game and a WO
FSU - 2 seniors (1 incoming frosh ---- 1 incoming frosh?!!?!?!?)
GT - 1 + 1 WO
UNC -1 + back up (10 min game) + WO
ND - 1 guy with no WO
Big 12:
BU - 1 senior and 1 transfer sitting out
KSU - one 30 min game and one 9 min game
Okla - 1 senior and 1 transfer sitting out
TT - 1 (mooney listed as SG)
i don't feel like going through anymore
also if you are really concerned about asst/TO you should look at the minutes played and assist TO for those 3 conferences because i just did and MOST of the guys listed as PGs and playing 20+ min do not have more than 1.5 asst per game
as far as minutes and asst/to carson edwards has 3 asst/3.2 turnovers in 40 minutes but i think we would all take that. yeah the defenses are better, but so are the play makers on his team
easy link here for stats http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/251
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