Wrigley
- Thread starter NJCat
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No, I just have less confidence in the Cubs than I did in the Collins boys......
I never really bought into the whole theory that Wrigley was the greatest example of historic MLB baseball history ever to be witnessed. Of course I held that opinion when Comiskey Park and Tiger Stadium both still stood. Both were highly superior to Wrigley in my opinion, if you take Clark Street , the North Side, and the Lake out of it.
Yankee Stadium turned to crap around 1975 when George "remodeled" it, so really Fenway Park is the only measuring stick left, and I really like Fenway Park. I am happy the Cubs owners have found a way to restore the exterior of Wrigley back into something that resembles the historic stadium. I think the "new" Wrigley is going to be great for the Cubs, Chicago and the neighborhood. At least it still there and for the fans it will be a lot better.
I went to a couple(actually about 10 and liked every experience) of games at Wrigley, although I am a AL fan, and always would rather see the CWS do well, I'd still rather watch a game in the lower bowl of the White Sox Park though.. My GF's mother lived down by the Lincoln Park Zoo and there was nothing I liked better than visiting Chicago and staying on Lincoln Park West, eating great Pizza, hitting the bars (plus Club Neo, Wiener Circle, ect) and going to the North Ave Beach. *(and maybe going to Wrigley) Unfortunately the GF's mom passed away, so now I have to book a hotel!
A couple of impressions I had of "historic' Wrigley were all of the ugly chain link fences and horrible 1950's era concrete panels and tiny windows all over the exterior of Wrigley. Wrigley looked like complete garbage from the outside, and so did much of the steetscape (more than you think) like where that crappy McDonalds stood. Back when Wrigley was new, that McDonalds address probably looked a lot better.
The back side of Wrigley on the outfield/ east side at street level always seemed a lot more appealing to me. It was probably even more so when actually people lived in all the rowhouses. Sitting in the seats has always been great, until you have to urinate, or turn around and look at those horrible chain link/ concrete panels than Soviet engineers from 1947 would be proud of.
Yankee Stadium turned to crap around 1975 when George "remodeled" it, so really Fenway Park is the only measuring stick left, and I really like Fenway Park. I am happy the Cubs owners have found a way to restore the exterior of Wrigley back into something that resembles the historic stadium. I think the "new" Wrigley is going to be great for the Cubs, Chicago and the neighborhood. At least it still there and for the fans it will be a lot better.
I went to a couple(actually about 10 and liked every experience) of games at Wrigley, although I am a AL fan, and always would rather see the CWS do well, I'd still rather watch a game in the lower bowl of the White Sox Park though.. My GF's mother lived down by the Lincoln Park Zoo and there was nothing I liked better than visiting Chicago and staying on Lincoln Park West, eating great Pizza, hitting the bars (plus Club Neo, Wiener Circle, ect) and going to the North Ave Beach. *(and maybe going to Wrigley) Unfortunately the GF's mom passed away, so now I have to book a hotel!
A couple of impressions I had of "historic' Wrigley were all of the ugly chain link fences and horrible 1950's era concrete panels and tiny windows all over the exterior of Wrigley. Wrigley looked like complete garbage from the outside, and so did much of the steetscape (more than you think) like where that crappy McDonalds stood. Back when Wrigley was new, that McDonalds address probably looked a lot better.
The back side of Wrigley on the outfield/ east side at street level always seemed a lot more appealing to me. It was probably even more so when actually people lived in all the rowhouses. Sitting in the seats has always been great, until you have to urinate, or turn around and look at those horrible chain link/ concrete panels than Soviet engineers from 1947 would be proud of.
Old Comiskey was also a dump. In fact, it was built on a dump. But at least it had some quirky architectural features and an exploding scoreboard. And a shower behind center field. What's better than an Old Style and a shower at the old ballpark?
In the '70s, there were plenty of seats available at basically every stadium in baseball. MLB attendance was terrible until the 1980s.
WGN, Harry Carey, and that 1983 Division run launched the Cubs into mainstream popularity. Then, suddenly, Wrigley Park was an icon.
Of course, after the way the fans treated Steve Bartman, it wouldn't bother me if the Cubs never won another game...
But that's not the case at Wrigley now. Now, it's a tourist attraction for baseball fans wanting to visit an old, rickety looking baseball park. This accounts for Wrigley's sellouts as much as an increase in attendance.
Harry Caray didn't seem to have that effect with the White Sox when they featured the "South Side Hit Men".
The Reds will be watching too. From their couchesAs a Reds' fan, I am going to take such evil pleasure in watching the Cubs lose in the NLCS again this year.
He was loved with the White Sox too, but WGN thrust him into the mainstream, launched by that 1984 Division run. His "Holy Cow!" and 7th inning stretch became classic MLB culture.
I can see his fame growing with the Cubs, but he was already quite popular with the White Sox...occasionally broadcasting from the bleachers and getting drunk during games. He and Jimmy Piersall were much better than Jack Brickhouse.
The Dodgers had the best attendance in the 1970s, with well over 24 million fans attending their games in that decade. That's a little over 30,000 fans per game. Dodger Stadium holds 56,000. Plenty of good seats were available.
Not exactly terrible attendance either...
And there were far more day games in those days as well.
That was cool how you backed your statement with facts.
Here's another interesting fact: night games have increased almost 40% since the 70s. Thus, family outings to the ballpark are easier without having to pull kids from school. Although less factual, I suspect the economic boom of the 80s also played a role.
Strangely, World Series viewership has dropped drastically, by nearly 15% in the last 25 years, which is odd...
I wonder if it hurts ratings that a lot of these playoff series have moved to cable and away from the networks. It used to be such an event because it took up one of the few channels you had to watch. Now, some of these playoffs/championships just get lost among all the cable tv crap.
Wrigley is/was a dump. Was out there recently and it is going to very nice when completed. Wrigley has always been about the actual playing field which is picturesque, and if you deny that you are foolish. Old Comiskey the same. The park had character but it was a dump too. anyone miss taking a leak on a wall that ran down to a drain?? Me neither. It should have gone under a complete renovation along with a neighborhood renovation or a new park built downtown or in the suburbs. The decision to build next door without investing into the nieghborhood has hurt attendance for 20 years
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Agree that Wrigley was a dump, at least the area under the stands. That is no longer true because all the support structure has been replaced and all paid for by the Cubs ownership and not the taxpayers. The team on the south side just doesn't have a loyal fan base. They couldn't even sell out the park during their World Series season and are currently near the bottom in attendance of all teams this year, even while they own one of the best records in baseball.
I would disagree they do not have a loyal fan base. I think they have a really loyal and passionate fan base. Its just they do not have a large fan base and a huge majority of the fan base in the are they live out in the Southwest and West suburbs and in Northwest Indiana. they do not go to many games but their tv numbers are always very good. the Cell is just not conducive to its location being a destination, especially on week nights. South of the stadium is just miles and miles of neighborhoods with zero ticket buying interest all the way to the Indiana border. For the majority of fan base its a complete difficult place to get too and the location completely hurts newer fans from coming on board.
He did all that with the White Sox, too. I'm remember when he came to the Cubs thinking, "Oh, no, he's not going to sing 'Take Me Out to the Ballgame' here, too." Cub fans think they invented it, but he started it with the Cardinals.
I realize all that. The point remains, it was him, along with the the influence of WGN and that magical run in '84 that truly launched Wrigley Field and the Cubs popularity...
OK then, if they truly have loyal fans then how do explain the fact that they 3rd or 4th from the bottom in American League attendance? They have one of the best records in baseball and still have trouble drawing 20,000 to a game. Heck, even in their World Series winning year they didn't sell out the Cell for games in September. The ballpark is a couple of blocks from the Dan Ryan and the red Line and the park is surrounded by parking lots, making it a very easy place to get to, if you want to and are loyal.
I said the fans they have are loyal, extremely. You are putting loyalty with attendance. Their fans are passionate, beligerant, and obnoxious but extremely loyal. Go out to Orland Park, Tinley Park, Frankfort, Lemont and see all the freaking Sox gear, flags, etc. They do not go to the games since the fan base lives no where near their park and the park is not a destination. They have a small but loyal fan base. Turn the page on NU....do we have a loyal fan base?? I would say those of us who follow the team are very loyal but there are not many of us and we are all across the country so our crowds are small...blah blah blah...same stuff. I just said their fans are loyal, just not a huge fan base and for the ones in Chicagoland the park is not conducive to a walk up crow, a destination crowd, and for sure inconvenient for the old Southside native fans. I know huge Sox fans who live in the Southwest burbs...they want no part of riding the Dan Ryan on a weeknight to get to the cell...they watch it on the tube.
It's interesting to see the Sox experimenting with a bunch of discount ticket plans. That might give them a niche with the Cubs tickets now becoming one of the most expensive in MLB. There are plenty of Sox fans out there and in 2005 and 2006, their attendance was very good but catsattackfor3 is right about the "destination" sales point the Cubs have (and so do the Red Sox) . Other teams have noticed. Atlanta is building a whole neighborhood around its new park. They've had attendance issues despite a long history of winning (numerous failures to sell out post season games which the Sox have never had).
Fine but "sit at home fans "add nothing in their "support" for their team. You must be kidding when you say that people living in the Southwest burbs find it inconvenient getting to the Cell. I would call not making an effort to support your team, lazy.
I'm a Cubs fan but I go to more sox games, primarily taking advantage of their discount ticket plans. It's cheaper, easier for me to get to (rock island) and you can very easily shimmy up to a very nice seat. They really blew their chance though to create a destination stadium - the cell came right before Camden yards, Jacobs field etc. the recent renovations are nice, but still nothing memorable about the stadium. I've been to probably 30-40 current and past stadiums, wrigley is #1 for me the cell somewhere in the middle to bottom. Old comiskey would be top 5 or 6.
Nothing could detract from the character like what they did to Soldier's Field. What a monstrosity!
I take the rock island with my 7 year olds - piece of cake. 1,000 times more convenient than wrigley, all to his point, not as easy as watching on a 46 inch HD TV in your living room,
Call it what it is its not being lazy...you know how long it takes to get from the Southwest Suburbs to the Cell during a weekday? And to top it off it is just plain and simple not desirable to drive on the Dan Ryan Expressway to I-80 as I know many out that way who refuse to do that. The entire working class South-side has upped and moved over the last 20 years...look at those neighborhoods. Its a Chicago phenomena. And again that is their fan-base, the place is not a destination so new fans, casual fans, etc. do not have the draw to go there. Its like in Tampa. they have had some great teams but the stadium is just in a brutal location to get to, has nothing around it. You put that PArk downtown or in the burbs and things would be completely different.
The Sox should have build the Cell on the lake just south of Soldier Field. In the late 80s land was cheap and abundant right there. Ample room for parking, a world class field with a great view of the lake and skyline, and extremely easy to get to. That west and south loop areas are exploding now and they'd get the "casual" fan a la wrigley. They would be dominating attendance right now.
I'm as diehard a Sox fan as there is, and a weekday game really doesn't do it for me, especially when it's colder than shit out. I can hop on the red line after work and be in the stadium in 20 minutes, and I'd rather watch on TV. For me personally the vibe around the stadium just kinda sucks.
Reinsdorf just has a monopoly on their current area and is making a KILLING with his current deal with the city's stadium authority. He doesn't give a shit how many people go there. I want to say he's paying a flat 1.5 million/year to the city for use of the ball park unless they draw 2MM+, which is when he starts paying a tax on each ticket sold.
The Braves are gonna tear down Turner Field and it's like 25 years old or whatever. After the Sox stadium lease is up, Reisndorf will be long gone (paging Mark Cuban (pipe dream)) and if they are serious about winning the arms race with the Cubs (believe it or not, there is one) then they 100% should move their stadium to the South Loop
I'm as diehard a Sox fan as there is, and a weekday game really doesn't do it for me, especially when it's colder than shit out. I can hop on the red line after work and be in the stadium in 20 minutes, and I'd rather watch on TV. For me personally the vibe around the stadium just kinda sucks.
Reinsdorf just has a monopoly on their current area and is making a KILLING with his current deal with the city's stadium authority. He doesn't give a shit how many people go there. I want to say he's paying a flat 1.5 million/year to the city for use of the ball park unless they draw 2MM+, which is when he starts paying a tax on each ticket sold.
The Braves are gonna tear down Turner Field and it's like 25 years old or whatever. After the Sox stadium lease is up, Reisndorf will be long gone (paging Mark Cuban (pipe dream)) and if they are serious about winning the arms race with the Cubs (believe it or not, there is one) then they 100% should move their stadium to the South Loop
have you tried going to Wrigley from the Western Burbs during the week. It's over an hour by car and that doesn't include finding a parking space and yet the Cubs draw close to 40,000 daily. guess you don't think anyone in the city south of Madison St. works. That's sure a narrow and incorrect view of things.
Guess you haven't heard but it's against the law at least the law that "The Friends of the Park advocate to build anything on the lakefront. Your right that the deal Reinsdorf has the state McPier Authority, pushed through by Governor Thompson, as one sided. heck in the last couple of years the authority authorized building a bar inside the place and putting up two gigantic scoreboards.at the tax payer expense. Your wrong however about the Sox ever outdrawing the Cubs, even if they built a ballpark at State and Madison. The Cubs have outdrawn the Sox for at least the last 10 to 15 years, including 2005 when the Sox won the World Series. Face it a Cubs town.
Never did I say the Sox would ever outdraw the Cubs? Attendance would be ridiculously better, yes, but they don't have near the external advantages the Cubs do. Wrigley is in the middle of the biggest post-college aged neighborhood in the 3rd biggest city in the country. There's what, a hundred bars all within a few block radius of Wrigley? A crazy amount of post college big ten grads live walking distance from the stadium and the treat it like a frat party. It's awesome. I went on Sunday myself and had a blast and I LOATHE the Cubs. You can't do that at the Cell.
Also if you can't build a lakefront stadium then why was the city allowed to renovate soldier field?
Also if you can't build a lakefront stadium then why was the city allowed to renovate soldier field?
I thought you said that the Sox would be "dominating" attendance if they had built a park on the lakefront. Doubt that these post college age kids pony up $100 or more to pack Wrigley but the Cubs do have long, long history of supporting their team. You will have to ask "The Friends of the Park", why Soldier Field was allowed. Guess it could be because it was already there, only now it's plain ugly.
Fenway Park is a dump-if you can tear down Yankee Stadium-Fenway can go also
Camden Yards in Baltimore is the best stadium I have been in. Sit in RF bleachers during batting practice, roast beef from Boog Powell's , crabcakes upstairs and in your seat food/beverage service(club level)
DC's new stadium was built with the premise "not another Camden Yards". They succeeded -terrible food and employees that cannot make change-2 innings to get a beer. The subway is only 2 blocks away, so that is a plus
I can remember going to old Commiskey Park to see Mickey Mantle in his last year. Took the EL and was advised by Transit Cop to run the entire distance to the stadium. A father and young son were sitting in front of me-in no time at all, dad was knee deep in empty beer cups, screaming "Booooford, you bum"
Yankee Stadium- heaven-"Old Timers' Day" Sunday doubleheaders
The Polo Grounds were horrible-short down the lines and you could not hit a golf ball out in centerfield
Ebbett's Field - an OK place but the Dodgers played there
Shibe Park (Connie Mack )-convenient to train-good seats always available, towering rightfield wall. My dad told me stories of watching Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig bombing balls out over the wall in BP-The wall was raised later to keep people in the adjacent apartment from watching the games. I remember legless guys(WW II Vets ?) on homemade mechanics creepers asking for handouts under the railroad bridge- I was amazed at how fast they could travel and spin on a dime to request money-my dad always gave me quarters to put in their cans
Forbes Field - mediocre at best but Roberto Clemente was as complete a player as I have seen
Camden Yards in Baltimore is the best stadium I have been in. Sit in RF bleachers during batting practice, roast beef from Boog Powell's , crabcakes upstairs and in your seat food/beverage service(club level)
DC's new stadium was built with the premise "not another Camden Yards". They succeeded -terrible food and employees that cannot make change-2 innings to get a beer. The subway is only 2 blocks away, so that is a plus
I can remember going to old Commiskey Park to see Mickey Mantle in his last year. Took the EL and was advised by Transit Cop to run the entire distance to the stadium. A father and young son were sitting in front of me-in no time at all, dad was knee deep in empty beer cups, screaming "Booooford, you bum"
Yankee Stadium- heaven-"Old Timers' Day" Sunday doubleheaders
The Polo Grounds were horrible-short down the lines and you could not hit a golf ball out in centerfield
Ebbett's Field - an OK place but the Dodgers played there
Shibe Park (Connie Mack )-convenient to train-good seats always available, towering rightfield wall. My dad told me stories of watching Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig bombing balls out over the wall in BP-The wall was raised later to keep people in the adjacent apartment from watching the games. I remember legless guys(WW II Vets ?) on homemade mechanics creepers asking for handouts under the railroad bridge- I was amazed at how fast they could travel and spin on a dime to request money-my dad always gave me quarters to put in their cans
Forbes Field - mediocre at best but Roberto Clemente was as complete a player as I have seen
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the Cubs attendance suck in the 70s and 80s? I was born in 88 so it's a serious question.
And when I said "dominating" I meant with respect to what they are drawing now. They could have a similar stadium to San Fransisco and draw well regardless of how well the team is playing.
Also - a good amount of these post college kids aren't Cubs fans. They're kids who finally have disposable income in their pockets looking to get shitfaced. I'm one of the people in this age group and have dozens of friends who live in wrigleyville that are reds, twins, Indians fans, etc. that go to Cubs games all the time just to get drunk in the bleachers. Nothing wrong with that at all, but it's not all "Cubs" fans that are supporting the team. There aren't many people at all that do this for the white sox
And when I said "dominating" I meant with respect to what they are drawing now. They could have a similar stadium to San Fransisco and draw well regardless of how well the team is playing.
Also - a good amount of these post college kids aren't Cubs fans. They're kids who finally have disposable income in their pockets looking to get shitfaced. I'm one of the people in this age group and have dozens of friends who live in wrigleyville that are reds, twins, Indians fans, etc. that go to Cubs games all the time just to get drunk in the bleachers. Nothing wrong with that at all, but it's not all "Cubs" fans that are supporting the team. There aren't many people at all that do this for the white sox
The Cubs are not relying on the Western Suburbs crowd.... that is the difference. Seriously south of US Cellular Field is full of neighborhoods that are some of the poorest per capita in the state of Illinois, also a lot of 1st generation families. How many ticket buyers are from Canaryville, Bronzeville, McKinley Park, Woodlawn Gage Park, Englewood?? This is not like Wrigleyville or Lincoln Park where 20 somethings with money in their pocket are hanging out and enjoying the atmosphere. this not where people make travel plans from out of state to check Wrigley off their bucket list. I do not see 20+ year olds fresh out of college who grew up in the burbs or got a job in Big Chicago from out of state say hey lets get an apartment in Bridgeport or Armour Square and hang out at the Cell.
Completely bad comparison.The neighborhoods nearby is not your target market for discretionary income for baseball ticket buyers. And that fact has been talked about by the White Sox themselves from their own market research. They know where their fan base is, they know if the stadium was in area A, B, or C the draw would be better but as another poster said they have a goldmine of a deal with the Illinois Stadium Authority. They play there rent free unless they draw over 2 million fans. One article in Crain's Chicago Buisness said it is the best stadium deal in all of the 4 major US sports in the US. They do not even have to kick in for stadium upkeep and renovations.
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