Non-political hazing thread

[FeralFelidae]

It looks like the hazing thread was deleted, which is a shame, because there were some good posts there. Let's have a non-political thread on the same topic.

There are some questions and comments I'll offer for discussion (feel free to add your own):

Is hazing always bad?
If not, what are the boundaries that separate "bad" hazing from the rest? Is it the simulated sex acts?
If some people are singled out for these rituals and others are not, I don't call that hazing; I call that bullying.
Perhaps all hazing IS bad, even if it may seem benign, due to the slippery slope argument. Perhaps, once the seed is planted, it is always destined to progress until it eventually does cross the line. That seems to be the explanation favored by that article in The Athletic.
What were the repercussions for any NU football players who opted out of the rituals? Has anybody claimed that the coaches cut their playing time because they opted out of the rituals?

 

[hdhntr1]

It looks like the hazing thread was deleted, which is a shame, because there were some good posts there. Let's have a non-political thread on the same topic.

There are some questions and comments I'll offer for discussion (feel free to add your own):

Is hazing always bad?
If not, what are the boundaries that separate "bad" hazing from the rest? Is it the simulated sex acts?
If some people are singled out for these rituals and others are not, I don't call that hazing; I call that bullying.
Perhaps all hazing IS bad, even if it may seem benign, due to the slippery slope argument. Perhaps, once the seed is planted, it is always destined to progress until it eventually does cross the line. That seems to be the explanation favored by that article in The Athletic.
What were the repercussions for any NU football players who opted out of the rituals? Has anybody claimed that the coaches cut their playing time because they opted out of the rituals?

Hard to see all "hazing " to be considered bad. It is such a broad term. It can be as little as getting guys to know the names of other players or coaches Some is useful for team building but some is not. Unfortunately in the case of NU, everything that was supposedly hazing has been raised to being dry humping and worse. reality is that most is pretty benign but that is not what has been presented

 

[IGNORE2]

Hard to see all "hazing " to be considered bad. It is such a broad term. It can be as little as getting guys to know the names of other players or coaches Some is useful for team building but some is not. Unfortunately in the case of NU, everything that was supposedly hazing has been raised to being dry humping and worse. reality is that most is pretty benign but that is not what has been presented

I suppose the introduction of some sexual component is on the wrong side of the line.

 

[curdog]

I suppose the introduction of some sexual component is on the wrong side of the line.

Agreed but lots of hazing can be non-sexual (freshman forced to do a talent show for example). The zero tolerance policy with regard to hazing was always doomed to fail.

 

[stpaulcat]

I suppose the introduction of some sexual component is on the wrong side of the line.

This board is not the place to discuss anything, sexual or otherwise, even if whatever it is, happened, beyond who is going to be on the depth chart as running back, if you understand, or try to get some insight into the nature of this thing called hazing, if you understand, so as to better assess the reasons for the dismissal of Fitz, which is the basis for the bulk of threads and posts in the past month. We should have, if you understand, a forum to discuss this honestly, if you understand, what has happened to our beloved football program and University. NU, after all, if you understand, is an institution dedicated to honest and open inquiry. Apparently the university itself is no more enlightened than this football board. I am currently reading Gogol, who was a critic of Russian society, if you understand.

 

[stpaulcat]

Agreed but lots of hazing can be non-sexual (freshman forced to do a talent show for example). The zero tolerance policy with regard to hazing was always doomed to fail.

That justifies hazing, in its more benign forms?

 

[IGNORE2]

This board is not the place to discuss anything, sexual or otherwise, even if whatever it is, happened, beyond who is going to be on the depth chart as running back, if you understand, or try to get some insight into the nature of this thing called hazing, if you understand, so as to better assess the reasons for the dismissal of Fitz, which is the basis for the bulk of threads and posts in the past month. We should have, if you understand, a forum to discuss this honestly, if you understand, what has happened to our beloved football program and University. NU, after all, if you understand, is an institution dedicated to honest and open inquiry. Apparently the university itself is no more enlightened than this football board. I am currently reading Gogol, who was a critic of Russian society, if you understand.

Huh?

 

[IGNORE2]

Agreed but lots of hazing can be non-sexual (freshman forced to do a talent show for example). The zero tolerance policy with regard to hazing was always doomed to fail.

Agreed but a talent show did not get PF fired

 

[phatcat]

This board is not the place to discuss anything, sexual or otherwise, even if whatever it is, happened, beyond who is going to be on the depth chart as running back, if you understand, or try to get some insight into the nature of this thing called hazing, if you understand, so as to better assess the reasons for the dismissal of Fitz, which is the basis for the bulk of threads and posts in the past month. We should have, if you understand, a forum to discuss this honestly, if you understand, what has happened to our beloved football program and University. NU, after all, if you understand, is an institution dedicated to honest and open inquiry. Apparently the university itself is no more enlightened than this football board. I am currently reading Gogol, who was a critic of Russian society, if you understand.

@stpaulcat that first sentence rivals Thomas Hardy. I had to read it 3 times.

 

[phatcat]

Agreed but a talent show did not get PF fired

They were going to have one amongst his assistant coaches, but none of them had any talent.

 

[curdog]

Agreed but a talent show did not get PF fired

I never said it did. My point was that even minor things can be considered hazing so a zero tolerance policy was never realistic. Zero tolerance for abusive behavior or putting you hands on someone might have been more helpful.

 

[Hungry Jack]

That which does not kill you makes you stronger

 

[hdhntr1]

This board is not the place to discuss anything, sexual or otherwise, even if whatever it is, happened, beyond who is going to be on the depth chart as running back, if you understand, or try to get some insight into the nature of this thing called hazing, if you understand, so as to better assess the reasons for the dismissal of Fitz, which is the basis for the bulk of threads and posts in the past month. We should have, if you understand, a forum to discuss this honestly, if you understand, what has happened to our beloved football program and University. NU, after all, if you understand, is an institution dedicated to honest and open inquiry. Apparently the university itself is no more enlightened than this football board. I am currently reading Gogol, who was a critic of Russian society, if you understand.

Do you even know what you are trying to say?

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

Its a difficult subject to discuss because people refuse to use the definition of hazing that Northwestern wrote in its student code of conduct. They also refuse to use the definition that the state of Illinois wrote into law.

Most of the screamers on this board refuse to use any definition at all. They just scream and arbitrarily apply (nonsensical) generalizations. "I know it when I see it" is lame because it ignores context and context is the primary determinant of how an act is perceived by the people involved.

 

[stpaulcat]

Do you even know what you are trying to say?

Yes, absolutely clear to me.

 

[stpaulcat]

That which does not kill you makes you stronger

This reminds me of woody Hayes "bulldozer and the tree" analogy.

 

[hdhntr1]

Yes, absolutely clear to me.

Not sure anyone else did

 

[NUCat320]

The implication of hazing is that someone doesn’t ‘belong’ until they’ve ‘earned it’ by ‘going through this’.

This is dumb. These kids all earned their spots the same way: through previous academic and athletic performance, through the way they interacted with the staff and coaches and active players on their visits, through their overall cultural fit and potential as a leader.

Adding another layer — you’re not there yet — is retrograde.

I think what Braun has reported doing, emphasizing togetherness with fun team competitions and focusing on making the most of team meals — is the right approach, and the modern one. (Not saying that this wasn’t done before, by the way.)

Ultimately, hazing basically only exists in Greek life and in athletics. If your boss took you out to lunch and then handed you the bill on day one, you’d be surprised and put-off.

Is hazing always harmful? Probably not. But hazing as a concept tends to lead to harm infliction. That’s why zero tolerance was the rule.


I think this is pretty interesting, coming from googling of ‘is hazing always harmful?’

Fraternity Without Pledging - Zeta Beta Tau

Zeta Beta Tau is proud to be the first fraternity that abolished pledging and multiple-tier membership statuses.

zbt.org

That which does not kill you makes you stronger

“Heads up! Another d*ck swinging at your face! Wait! Heads down!”

 

[stpaulcat]

Not sure anyone else did

Read "Dead Souls", by Gogol. You'll get it, or at least part of it.

 

[IGNORE2]

I never said it did. My point was that even minor things can be considered hazing so a zero tolerance policy was never realistic. Zero tolerance for abusive behavior or putting you hands on someone might have been more helpful.

Hmmmm…trying to remember where zero tolerance originated…oh yeah, PF. Irony.

 

[BleedingPurple15]

The implication of hazing is that someone doesn’t ‘belong’ until they’ve ‘earned it’ by ‘going through this’.

This is dumb. These kids all earned their spots the same way: through precious academic and athletic performance, through the way they interacted with the staff and coaches and active players on their visits, through their overall cultural fit and potential as a leader.

Adding another layer — you’re not there yet — is retrograde.

I think what Braun has reported doing, emphasizing togetherness with fun team competitions and focusing on making the most of team meals — is the right approach, and the modern one. (Not saying that this wasn’t done before, by the way.)

Ultimately, hazing basically only exists in Greek life and in athletics. If your boss took you out to lunch and then handed you the bill on day one, you’d be surprised and put-off.

Is hazing always harmful? Probably not. But hazing as a concept tends to lead to harm infliction. That’s why zero tolerance was the rule.


I think this is pretty interesting, coming from googling of ‘is hazing always harmful?’

Fraternity Without Pledging - Zeta Beta Tau

Zeta Beta Tau is proud to be the first fraternity that abolished pledging and multiple-tier membership statuses.

zbt.org

“Heads up! Another d*ck swinging at your face! Wait! Heads down!”

I think this principle (and analogy) is applied a bit too generally. Organizations of any size tend to have their own individual cultures. Being recruited/ hired/ invited to join does not mean that some forms of integration isn't still necessary to bring you into the fold. A piece of paper that says you're a part of a team doesn't make you a part of the "Team" (metaphorically).

Also, I do not find the boss analogy convincing. Hardly anyone would say that a company team is as close-knit, cohesive or as together as a sports team need to be. I see teammates on a sports team more akin to friends than to colleagues and there's a world of difference in propriety between the two. I would totally understand if a sports team need a more intensive integration process.

 

[hoosboot]

The implication of hazing is that someone doesn’t ‘belong’ until they’ve ‘earned it’ by ‘going through this’.

This is dumb. These kids all earned their spots the same way: through precious academic and athletic performance, through the way they interacted with the staff and coaches and active players on their visits, through their overall cultural fit and potential as a leader.

Adding another layer — you’re not there yet — is retrograde.

I think what Braun has reported doing, emphasizing togetherness with fun team competitions and focusing on making the most of team meals — is the right approach, and the modern one. (Not saying that this wasn’t done before, by the way.)

Ultimately, hazing basically only exists in Greek life and in athletics. If your boss took you out to lunch and then handed you the bill on day one, you’d be surprised and put-off.

Is hazing always harmful? Probably not. But hazing as a concept tends to lead to harm infliction. That’s why zero tolerance was the rule.


I think this is pretty interesting, coming from googling of ‘is hazing always harmful?’

Fraternity Without Pledging - Zeta Beta Tau

Zeta Beta Tau is proud to be the first fraternity that abolished pledging and multiple-tier membership statuses.

zbt.org

“Heads up! Another d*ck swinging at your face! Wait! Heads down!”

You can probably add the military to the list of places where hazing exists. There oddly was some hazing in Youth & Government programs. I think you'll tend to see it more in situations where there are younger people in hierarchical organizations with unbalanced power dynamics. But, yeah, sports and fraternities fit the above bill pretty well.

 

[EagerFan]

"Northwestern Policy​

Hazing is Defined As...​

any action taken or situation created, intentionally or unintentionally, whether on or off University premises and whether presented as optional or required, to produce: mental, physical, or emotional discomfort; servitude; degradation; embarrassment; harassment; or ridicule for the purpose of initiation into, affiliation with, or admission to, or as a condition for continued membership in a group, team, or other organization, regardless of an individual’s willingness to participate. "

That definition covers pretty much all interactions between humans within organizations.

My personal, non-enforceable, definition revolves around the degradation/humiliation/embarrassment aspect. That's the stuff that pushes pretty much anything into the hazing category. So running extra laps can just be running extra laps, but add in 'while wearing a jock on your head' and boom - there it is. A talent show doesn't have to fit that category, but you could make it fit with little effort.

Even in the bad old days when fraternity hazing was the norm, it was pretty easy to see the underlying intent of the various rituals and games and remove the hazing component while building the bond as intended.

Having said all that, someone looking to find hazing can find hazing anywhere - especially given the definition above.

 

[FeralFelidae]

"Northwestern Policy​

Hazing is Defined As...​

any action taken or situation created, intentionally or unintentionally, whether on or off University premises and whether presented as optional or required, to produce: mental, physical, or emotional discomfort; servitude; degradation; embarrassment; harassment; or ridicule for the purpose of initiation into, affiliation with, or admission to, or as a condition for continued membership in a group, team, or other organization, regardless of an individual’s willingness to participate. "

That definition covers pretty much all interactions between humans within organizations.

My personal, non-enforceable, definition revolves around the degradation/humiliation/embarrassment aspect. That's the stuff that pushes pretty much anything into the hazing category. So running extra laps can just be running extra laps, but add in 'while wearing a jock on your head' and boom - there it is. A talent show doesn't have to fit that category, but you could make it fit with little effort.

Even in the bad old days when fraternity hazing was the norm, it was pretty easy to see the underlying intent of the various rituals and games and remove the hazing component while building the bond as intended.

Having said all that, someone looking to find hazing can find hazing anywhere - especially given the definition above.

Except, some have argued, for this part:

"or as a condition for continued membership in a group, team, or other organization"

So, can we establish that there is membership to some group that is contingent on the hazing?

• Did any players get kicked off the team if they didn't participate in hazing?
• Can any players demonstrate that their playing time was cut because they did not participate in hazing?
• What, exactly, are the consequences of not participating in hazing?

 

[EagerFan]

"or as a condition for continued membership in a group, team, or other organization"

Sure, I think that's a critical component of hazing. If a person can just walk away from the group's demands and face no repercussions, that doesn't seem like hazing to me. It could still suck, but not towards that definition.

In context tho, I expect the implied or presumed risk of losing membership is enough to meet the criteria.

As to your bullet points, I have no knowledge one way or the other as to the specifics at NU.

 

[StreamCat]

That which does not kill you makes you stronger

I can think of several things that don’t kill but still cause terrible weakness, like being hit in the head with anvil, Looney Tunes style.

 

[NUCat320]

I can think of several things that don’t kill but still cause terrible weakness, like being hit in the head with anvil, Looney Tunes style.

Wile E Coyote always comes back, smarter and more creative.

 

[stpaulcat]

Wile E Coyote always comes back, smarter and more creative.

Did you mean WillieCat?

 

[IGNORE2]

"or as a condition for continued membership in a group, team, or other organization"

Sure, I think that's a critical component of hazing. If a person can just walk away from the group's demands and face no repercussions, that doesn't seem like hazing to me. It could still suck, but not towards that definition.

In context tho, I expect the implied or presumed risk of losing membership is enough to meet the criteria.

As to your bullet points, I have no knowledge one way or the other as to the specifics at NU.

Might be interesting to hear from those that transferred away over the years…

 

[IGNORE2]

I can think of several things that don’t kill but still cause terrible weakness, like being hit in the head with anvil, Looney Tunes style.

Or given an undo timeout from Cappy

 

[IGNORE2]

Did you mean WillieCat?

He’s been gone for a minute - hope he’s ok and simply busy yelling at the neighborhood kids to stay off his lawn.

 

[IGNORE2]

He’s been gone for a minute - hope he’s ok and simply busy yelling at the neighborhood kids to stay off his lawn.

Or was that willycat…