NU vs DePaul Arenas: Is NU WASTING money?

[FeliSilvestris]

As most of you know, last summer NU announced the renovation of WRA, which was built in th eearly 50's and hadn't received a major upgrade since the early 80's.

The cost is $110 MM. One of the net effects of the renovation is to REDUCE seating capacity to a meager 6,800.

Some miles South, DePaul undertook construction of a brand new 10,000-seat arena across the street from McCormick Place. Total cost (to all involved): $173MM. Of this, DePaul's share is a meager $70MM! The rest of the money comes from public sources.

An obvious question is, if a BRAND NEW 10,000-seat arena can be built in Chicago for $173MM why on earth didn't NU choose to build a NEW one in Evanston, as opposed to spending almost the SAME AMOUNT OF MONEY (-$63MM) to renovate a 60+ year-old building (with only 6800 seats)?

You'd figure that NU could have saved much of the $63MM simply by reducing the DePaul capacity from 10,000 to say to 8,000. Or simply spend the extra $63MM and try to recover the extra money by renting the place out for concerts and other large events.

I would love JP to answer this.

 

[NJCat]

As most of you know, last summer NU announced the renovation of WRA, which was built in th eearly 50's and hadn't received a major upgrade since the early 80's.

The cost is $110 MM. One of the net effects of the renovation is to REDUCE seating capacity to a meager 6,800.

Some miles South, DePaul undertook construction of a brand new 10,000-seat arena across the street from McCormick Place. Total cost (to all involved): $173MM. Of this, DePaul's share is a meager $70MM! The rest of the money comes from public sources.

An obvious question is, if a BRAND NEW 10,000-seat area can be built in Chicago for $173MM why on earth didn't NU choose to build a NEW one in Evanston, as opposed to spending almost the SAME AMOUNT OF MONEY (-$63MM) to renovate a 60+ year-old building (with only 6800 seats)?

You'd figure that NU could have saved much of the $63MM simply by reducing the DePaul capacity from 10,000 to say to 8,000. Or simply spend the extra $63MM and try to recover the extra money by renting the place out for concerts and other large events.

I would love JP to answer this.

Two possibilities:

1) NU couldn't find an additional $63M. Heck, as pointed out elsewhere, they probably can find an additional $2M/year to pay their current BB coach.
2) NU has no more land to build a bigger facility. The lakefill is full and unless they get rid of either baseball or softball so too is the Ashland Ave site. I do think they should have closed dwon baseball rather than invest in new facilities.

Why don't you send an email to Dr. Jim and let us know what he says?

 

[FeliSilvestris]

Two possibilities:

1) NU couldn't find an additional $63M. Heck, as pointed out elsewhere, they probably can find an additional $2M/year to pay their current BB coach.
2) NU has no more land to build a bigger facility. The lakefill is full and unless they get rid of either baseball or softball so too is the Ashland Ave site. I do think they should have closed dwon baseball rather than invest in new facilities.

There are probably many possibilities, such as the above. We can all speculate.

OTOH it seems that the extra $63MM could have been obtained from many sources. For example, a long-term loan payable with the extra money generated by the extra seating space (more seats for big games) plus rentals to outsiders for large events throughout the life of the brand new facility. Also, DePaul got about 60% of the money contributed from public sources. I'd imagine NU could have gotten some also, for a brand new arena. 63/173 is less than a 1/3 of the total cost.

I doubt space would have been an issue. Conceivably some parking space could have been used and replaced with underground parking, possibly under the new facility. The new arena may have also been built elsewhere in Evanston (or even in a neighboring community, if necessary).

I am surprised JP hasn't addressed this question directly already. I am pretty sure that this board is monitored by people affiliated with NU's AD, though. I hope they will bring this post to his attention, and he will address this issue in due time.

 

[Pete Purple]

I'm not an architect, but I underwrite (insure) many rennos and new construction projects. Subject to many, many details and variables of each project, it's not uncommon for rennos to cost more $ per sq ft than original construction does. In fact my experience is they usually cost more. I would also suggest that a new arena would take longer than 12 mo. That may be the biggest factor-what can we do in one season.

 

[FeliSilvestris]

it's not uncommon for rennos to cost more $ per sq ft than original construction does. In fact my experience is they usually cost more. I would also suggest that a new arena would take longer than 12 mo.

You are probably right on rennos costs. Which strengthens the question in the OP: Why not spend a bit more and get a brand new (possibly larger) arena?

Yes, it may have taken longer (possibly affecting a second season). But that would be a relatively minor inconvenience considering the benefit of having a brand new arena, whose expected lifespan would be at least decades.

By the way, it seems DePaul got about $20MM from naming rights over 15 years. Potentially NU could have gotten a similar deal for its new arena.

 

[Catreporter]

I think our season ticket base is about 6,000 or so. That plus maybe drawing 800 to 1,000 students maybe it makes sense to have a smaller capacity. A guy who worked in Nu's athletic administration told me once "it's all about season tickets"

 

[FeliSilvestris]

I think our season ticket base is about 6,000 or so. That plus maybe drawing 800 to 1,000 students maybe it makes sense to have a smaller capacity. A guy who worked in Nu's athletic administration told me once "it's all about season tickets"

Your numbers actually say that 6,800 is way to little since just the STH alone use up almost the entire capacity. In a place like Chicago many visiting teams have substantial fan bases, which may contribute revenue to NU's AD via tickets.
Furthermore, a program "on the rise" should increase attendance. In fact it has been doing so. This season NU had at least 4 sell-out crowds (8,117), and most conference games drew way over 7,000. That means that he new capacity will force NU to literally miss selling thousands of tickets (and even more if the team keeps improving).

 

[scru]

This water is well past under the bridge. Decisions made, funds secured, construction started. I'm not about to start anything resembling Dr Jim bashing. This guy has been a godsend for NU. Period, end of story.

 

[NJCat]

Your numbers actually say that 6,800 is way to little since just the STH alone use up almost the entire capacity. In a place like Chicago many visiting teams have substantial fan bases, which may contribute revenue to NU's AD via tickets.
Furthermore, a program "on the rise" should increase attendance. In fact it has been doing so. This season NU had at least 4 sell-out crowds (8,117), and most conference games drew way over 7,000. That means that he new capacity will force NU to literally miss selling thousands of tickets (and even more if the team keeps improving).

Economically, increasing capacity to 10,000 is nuts.

Assume for the sake of argument that NU could sell ALL of the additional tickets for 15 home games a season (9 conference plus 6 OOC games) for $40 a pop. This would raise $1.8 Million in revenue. It would take 35 years to break even on the additional $63 Million investment. NU would be FAR better served to use that $63 Million, wherever it came from, for other purposes than a bigger BB arena. And this is the best possible scenario.....in reality, NU would not sell all of the incremental seats.

 

[FeliSilvestris]

Economically, increasing capacity to 10,000 is nuts.

You are foolishly forgetting that an arena is a MULTI-PURPOSE facility that can be used and rented out for multiple purposes (not just BkB).
You are also foolishly forgetting that NU could have also built a NEW smaller arena (say with a capacity of 8000) which would reduce further the cost of the NEW arena, and get it even closer to the cost of the renovation. For example, assuming that a 20% capacity reduction would approximately reduce the total cost also in 20%, then the cost of the 8,000-seat BRAND NEW arena would be about $138MM.
That would be only $28MM more than the renovation of the 64-y.o. building, and would provide 1,200 additional seats!

 

[FeliSilvestris]

This water is well past under the bridge. Decisions made, funds secured, construction started. I'm not about to start anything resembling Dr Jim bashing. This guy has been a godsend for NU. Period, end of story.

First you are assuming that JP doesn't have have a good answer. He may.
Secondly, if a mistake was made it is important to recognize so that a similar mistake isn't made again.
Finally, last I checked the renovation started just a couple of weeks ago. *IF* (big IF) the NU's powers-that-be came to believe in the next days that the WRA renovation is a waste of money, I would suspect they COULD still change course. They have barely started. And they probably built into the contract with the builders a "escape clause" that would allow the university to back out by paying a reasonable penalty, if it finds it pertinent to do so.

 

[IdahoAlum]

You are probably right on rennos costs. Which strengthens the question in the OP: Why not spend a bit more and get a brand new (possibly larger) arena?

Yes, it may have taken longer (possibly affecting a second season). But that would be a relatively minor inconvenience considering the benefit of having a brand new arena, whose expected lifespan would be at least decades.

By the way, it seems DePaul got about $20MM from naming rights over 15 years. Potentially NU could have gotten a similar deal for its new arena.

A smaller arena creates scarcity, which raises ticket prices and other revenue generation possibilities (PSLs or required booster club donations, e.g.). You also create the situation where students are camping out to get tickets for high profile games, which Duke has milked for publicity for decades now. A full smaller arena is also a much better atmosphere than a half- or three-quarters full larger arena. Finally, I LOVE the idea that a smaller venue will squeeze out many of the visiting fans -- always hated watching games on TV from NU where half the crowd was cheering AGAINST the home team.

 

[willycat]

This water is well past under the bridge. Decisions made, funds secured, construction started. I'm not about to start anything resembling Dr Jim bashing. This guy has been a godsend for NU. Period, end of story.

Your right they are going forward and refitting W-R to the tune of 110MM. They also are cutting capacity by close to 2,000. Both points indicate a waste of tine and money. It has been shown that they sold out 4 games and had crowds of 7,000+ for most conference games, while stating that they have ST base of 6,000 and add 1,000 students, which reveals the new capacity is inadequate. It also is a proven that building new rather then remolding is a less expensive way to go. A Big Ten/Power5 arena, next to one of worlds largest city's is and building a place that seats a high school like capacity is just wrong. A larger footprint could be made available by tearing down the practice FB facility and weight room, along with Burton Office complex and maybe moving the softball field. A basketball practice facility could be incorporated into the new larger W-R and a softball field could located elsewhere on campus. Selling the naming rights and getting government assistance from Evanston and elsewhere could have been the way to go. NU used to draw nine to ten thousand people during the Bill Rohr years in old McGaw, dirt floors and all. Think that if Collins and the Wildcats continue their winning ways the re-done W-R will prove inadequate to host big time games , which have to shifted to the UC, DePaul or the Horizon. Hopefully limiting the amount of people who can see an exciting NU team will not adversely affect CC decision to make Evanston his permanent home.

 

[NJCat]

A smaller arena creates scarcity, which raises ticket prices and other revenue generation possibilities (PSLs or required booster club donations, e.g.). You also create the situation where students are camping out to get tickets for high profile games, which Duke has milked for publicity for decades now. A full smaller arena is also a much better atmosphere than a half- or three-quarters full larger arena. Finally, I LOVE the idea that a smaller venue will squeeze out many of the visiting fans -- always hated watching games on TV from NU where half the crowd was cheering AGAINST the home team.

In all seriousness, I hope that NU NEVER allows students to camp out for BB games. The thought of sleeping in tents in Evanston in January is crazy. If the whole point of NU is getting a good education, they should be working on their academics not spending time in Collinsville on Ashland Ave.

 

[IdahoAlum]

In all seriousness, I hope that NU NEVER allows students to camp out for BB games. The thought of sleeping in tents in Evanston in January is crazy. If the whole point of NU is getting a good education, they should be working on their academics not spending time in Collinsville on Ashland Ave.

"Collinsville," I like it. That's my hometown.

 

[NJCat]

"Collinsville," I like it. That's my hometown.

I lived in Hinman House with a couple of guys from Collinsville.....

 

[NURoseBowl]

Well, this is the deal we've got, fellas. May as well embrace and revel in the positives - of which there are many.

 

[FeralFelidae]

Are we getting luxury boxes with the renovation? Those would generate revenue that would somewhat offset the reduced capacity.

 

[Medill90]

DePaul's new arena is a great location so long as they have Mark Aguirre, Terry Cummings, Rod Strickland and Tyrone Corbin coming in to make the program a perennial contender for 10 years.

Otherwise, they are asking college students to leave boring Lincoln Park where there's nothing to do and get down to east Cermak street which is a little like getting from NU's Evanston campus to the Rosemont Horizon.....to watch not very good basketball.

 

[NJCat]

Are we getting luxury boxes with the renovation? Those would generate revenue that would somewhat offset the reduced capacity.

Looking at the plan, there are 3 suites in the N Club area.

 

[its_the_sauce]

15 years ago you should have gotten the Evanston city fathers to start playing the TIF shell game.

 

[IdahoAlum]

I lived in Hinman House with a couple of guys from Collinsville.....

Might have been my brother and I. Or my brother and his previous roommate. What year?

 

[NJCat]

Might have been my brother and I. Or my brother and his previous roommate. What year?

'74-76.

One guy was named Wes, I can't remember the other guy. Nice people though. Huge BB fans.

 

[IdahoAlum]

'74-76.

One guy was named Wes, I can't remember the other guy. Nice people though. Huge BB fans.

Yep, that was my brother Dave and his roommate Wes. After Wes graduated, I moved into Hinman with my brother for two years, before becoming a DU. ("You can't spell DUmb without DU!")

 

[NJCat]

Yep, that was my brother Dave and his roommate Wes. After Wes graduated, I moved into Hinman with my brother for two years, before becoming a DU. ("You can't spell DUmb without DU!")

I was rushed for 4 years by DU. The Hinman RA, John something, was a DU.....your brother was a really nice guy who knew his basketball.

 

[IdahoAlum]

I was rushed for 4 years by DU. The Hinman RA, John something, was a DU.....your brother was a really nice guy who knew his basketball.

John Ebert was the RA, believe. Good athlete, good guy to have on your IM teams. -

 

[NJCat]

John Ebert was the RA, believe. Good athlete, good guy to have on your IM teams. -

Yep, John Ebert. Great guy. If I remember correctly, you brother was a Journalism major. Did he work in that field?

 

[IdahoAlum]

Yep, John Ebert. Great guy. If I remember correctly, you brother was a Journalism major. Did he work in that field?

No, I was the journalism major. I worked in newspapers for 10 years, then went to work for the Idaho National Laboratory in public affairs. I still broadcast Idaho State men's and women's basketball as a "side job." My brother was an econ major, which led to a career as a contracting officer with DOD. He finished his career as the head of contracting at West Point. Wes went to Michigan law school and became, Ugh, a diehard Wolverine....

 

[FeliSilvestris]

The cost is $110 MM. One of the net effects of the renovation is to REDUCE seating capacity to a meager 6,800.

Here is the exact part of the document from the city of Evanston that indicates that the capacity of the renovated arena will be only 6800 seats (down from current 8,117)

 

[EvanstonCat]

Here is the exact part of the document from the city of Evanston that indicates that the capacity of the renovated arena will be only 6800 seats (down from current 8,117)

So, the building was designed with 6,800 seats with a max capacity of 9,870. So, the maximum attendance is 9,870. So, basically what this is saying is that Welsh Ryan will be 130 seats short of Cameron Indoor stadium's maximum capacity.

"The building (Cameron) originally included seating for 8,800... though now there is sufficient standing to ensure a total of 10,000 could fit into Cameroon Indoor on a very busy day."

Given the overhaul and installation of state-of-the art features and redesign, we can expect WR to be BETTER than Cameron Indoor Stadium - probably FAR BETTER.

Any of you Debbie downers still not satisfied and still think the arena is going to be a recruiting eyesore? (Pretty sure when Willy calls the new arena "antiquated" he did not even look at the plans.)

 

[FeliSilvestris]

So, the building was designed with 6,800 seats with a max capacity of 9,870. So, the maximum attendance is 9,870.

Completely wrong. They are just looking at the parking regulations. The # of parking spots must be not less than 10% of seating capacity.
The 9,870 comes simply from the fact that there are already 987 parking spots. Read the report.

 

[EvanstonCat]

Completely wrong. They are just looking at the parking regulations. The # of parking spots must be not less than 10% of seating capacity.
The 9,870 comes simply from the fact that there are already 987 parking spots. Read the report.

Oops, I think you're right.

I still think the arena will be awesome.

 

[hdhntr1]

As most of you know, last summer NU announced the renovation of WRA, which was built in th eearly 50's and hadn't received a major upgrade since the early 80's.

The cost is $110 MM. One of the net effects of the renovation is to REDUCE seating capacity to a meager 6,800.

Some miles South, DePaul undertook construction of a brand new 10,000-seat arena across the street from McCormick Place. Total cost (to all involved): $173MM. Of this, DePaul's share is a meager $70MM! The rest of the money comes from public sources.

An obvious question is, if a BRAND NEW 10,000-seat arena can be built in Chicago for $173MM why on earth didn't NU choose to build a NEW one in Evanston, as opposed to spending almost the SAME AMOUNT OF MONEY (-$63MM) to renovate a 60+ year-old building (with only 6800 seats)?

You'd figure that NU could have saved much of the $63MM simply by reducing the DePaul capacity from 10,000 to say to 8,000. Or simply spend the extra $63MM and try to recover the extra money by renting the place out for concerts and other large events.

I would love JP to answer this.

I thought it was to be reduced to 7600 (from 8300 or whatever it has been. . Where did the 6800 figure come from? It could be that it would be much harder in Evanston getting permits for a teardown and rebuild. Could be a host of other reasons but I did feel it would be better and likely cheaper to go new. Not sure there is a reason going to 10k as better to have a full house than a bigger place that is not full.

 

[hdhntr1]

Here is the exact part of the document from the city of Evanston that indicates that the capacity of the renovated arena will be only 6800 seats (down from current 8,117)

So the redoing of the parking lot required cutting down the number of seats?

 

[NJCat]

So the redoing of the parking lot required cutting down the number of seats?

No. There is plenty of parking. The reduction in seating capacity likely comes from the use of real seats rather than bleachers. Real seats take up more space. There is more than enough parking even for the old arena capacity, 8,117.

 

[FeliSilvestris]

So the redoing of the parking lot required cutting down the number of seats?

NOT AT ALL. There are 987 parking spots already in existence. They are simply saying that for a 6,800-seat facility (which the design calls for) only 680 parking spots are required, therefore the design satisfies the rules (it wouldn't if the seating capacity were higher than 9,870).

 

[hdhntr1]

No. There is plenty of parking. The reduction in seating capacity likely comes from the use of real seats rather than bleachers. Real seats take up more space. There is more than enough parking even for the old arena capacity, 8,117.

But again, I thought I had heard 7600 but now it people here are using 6800 and less. Why is it now 6800? What happened to the 7600 number?

 

[NJCat]

But again, I thought I had heard 7600 but now it people here are using 6800 and less. Why is it now 6800? What happened to the 7600 number?

Why don't we all take a deep breath and wait until more details are available from the University?

 

[FeliSilvestris]

Why is it now 6800? What happened to the 7600 number?

I have no idea what happened to the 7,600 number. A simple answer could be that whoever provided that number was wrong.

However, the 6,800 comes from an OFFICIAL document at the city of Evanston, part of the process leading to the approval of the design concerning zoning and other regulations (fire code, etc).

It is telling that the university's own releases on this matter do NOT seem to mention the seating capacity of the renovated arena (translation: they KNEW the reduction from 8,117 to 6,800 would be controversial).

 

[PurpleHaze525]

I thought it was to be reduced to 7600 (from 8300 or whatever it has been. . Where did the 6800 figure come from? It could be that it would be much harder in Evanston getting permits for a teardown and rebuild. Could be a host of other reasons but I did feel it would be better and likely cheaper to go new. Not sure there is a reason going to 10k as better to have a full house than a bigger place that is not full.

7600 was just an initial estimate when the renovation was first announced last summer. As the plans were finalized that number apparently went down a bit. You can notice some difference between the most recent pictures and the one from the original press release. Most notably, the original picture had a 3rd tier on the ends which is now gone.

As far as renovation vs. rebuild, I'd guess time had a lot to do with that decision. I'm no construction expert, but it seems like it would be tough to do a full teardown and rebuild quickly enough to have it only affect one season. DePaul's project is taking nearly two full years and I don't think that includes any demolition time (could be wrong there.)