Neither one of you are stating the applicable principles. Its true that unless a statute is violated that prohibits discrimination on the basis of a legislated against bad motive such as race, gender or age discrimination, under the law you can can be terminated or disciplined for any reason or no reason at all. This is employment-at-will. Employment-at-will has got nothing to due with the burden of proof or due process. As an employer I can fire someone based on the color of their socks as there is no legislation against this type of discrimination. I think the mention of right to work states got mixed in here because apart from legislative exceptions to employment- at-will, there can also be contractual rights derived either from a collective bargaining agreement or a personal employment contract. Collective bargaining agreements usually have clauses that protect employees from discharge or discipline for reasons other than "just cause". These contractual rights can effectively undo employment-at will and protect employees from arbitrary discipline. While it may be easier to get a collective bargaining agreement in a non-right to work state, working in such a state doesn't give you any contractual rights. You need to be represented by a union that has a collective bargaining agreement. By the same token if you are in a right to work state you can still be represented by a union and covered by a collective bargaining agreement. Right to work legislation only has to do with how employees pay for their representation. Federal law requires unions to represent all employees in the bargaining unit whether or not they are members. Right to work legislation prohibits unions from charging non-members for the representation they are required to provide. (unions refer to these non-members in right to work states as "free-riders.")
Something is Rotten in the state of Minnesota: 10 players suspended for the Holiday Bowl
- Thread starter CatManTrue
- Start date
This was botched from the get go. It never should have went public until Claeys got in front of the team to position the actions. The fact that the AD and coach never got on the same page led to a lot of this mess. There should have been an agreed upon plan on the messaging and if there was dispute it should have been resolved before airing the dirty laundry to the public.
Maybe it is me, but does anyone get the impression that Fitz is not a big fan of Claeys? Fitz falls all over himself a la Lou Holtz praising opponents like they are Alabama and coach like Vince Lombardi, but Fitz had very little to say about Claeys either before the game or after they handled us. Might have to do with Limegrover or maybe he had intel on some of the shenanigans within the athletic department. Maybe none of this, but high horse be damned, sure seemed odd.
You reflect many of my thoughts about this mess. My Minny friend had wanted me to go to the Holiday Bowl game with him but I declined. I don't know if he is still planning to go, probably not if Minny is not there.
The BigTen has a mess on their hands. This reflects on the conference as well as Bowl partners. It would be awkward to have the Minny team come to SD given the background of events. Again I wonder what role the conference will play in the logistics of the bowl game. Would the BigTen help fund a replacement team's participation in the game like N. Illinois? Others have pointed out the problems bringing in another team at the 11th hr., could N. Illinois realistically still participate at this point since their season has been over and they haven't been practicing. I'm very curious about the BigTen's role to buffer the bowl's potential financial losses. I agree with those who have said off the field conduct has consequences but how is that balanced by the need for due process. All of this under the vice of time constraints for the upcoming (or not) Holiday Bowl. The clock is ticking.
Last edited:
From a DA on Gopher Hole.
""""""Let me start by saying I'm taking a lot of my information off of the internet and from Gopherhole, so that might be my first mistake. However, if what I have read is correct, the following aspects of this make NO sense:
1. IF the accuser plead the 5th at the ROR hearing, she clearly was concerned (along with her attorney) that the answers to questions asked of her could implicate her in a criminal charge. That means perjury or obstruction. That means that there are aspects of her SWORN statement which are not truthful (not just that she couldn't remember, or that she was mistaken) but she intentionally lied on her statement. That's a really big deal. In 10 years as a prosecutor, I don't believe I've ever seen that. This puts her credibility really in question.
2. IF (as I've read) part of the settlement of the ROR, both parties agreed to stay away from each other and the players agreed NOT to file civil lawsuits against the accuser, this is INCREDIBLY rare. There was obviously concern from the accuser (and her attorney) that there may be a basis for a civil suit. It was obviously her (and her attorney's) idea to place this in the settlement. Both of these things are admissible in a criminal trial as consciousness of guilt evidence and again, puts her credibility at issue.
3. It's my understanding that none of the players were even arrested. The burden of proof for arrest is probable cause. The prosecutor didn't even believe they could meet that low threshold. Between the statement of the victim and the SANE exam, this burden is really low. If she was forcibly part of a gang rape, the SANE exam would show evidence of this......
4. While this is not part of the legal system, to (allegedly) be suspending players for being at the residence is ridiculous. Djam's encounter was deemed consensual. Is this committee going to start investigating the consensual sex lives of non-athletes at the U? Slippery slope here folks.
5. Finally, what ever happened to time served and timely justice? Some of these players have already sat out three games for what is non-criminal conduct. Does that count for nothing? I can't believe this committee can sit back while the alleged perpetrators are suspended, than reinstated and than try to suspend them (and others) for the bowl game? Double jeopardy, anyone?
I don't blame the players one bit for boycotting. In the end, this could set this program back decades (insert joke here). All of this for what has been deemed by professionals to be non-criminal conduct. Sad.
I'm betting the alleged victim is none too happy about this being brought up again. There is going to be no prosecution criminally, and her version of these events is going to be scrutinized. Some of these players didn't agree not to sue her. Stay tuned."""""""
""""""Let me start by saying I'm taking a lot of my information off of the internet and from Gopherhole, so that might be my first mistake. However, if what I have read is correct, the following aspects of this make NO sense:
1. IF the accuser plead the 5th at the ROR hearing, she clearly was concerned (along with her attorney) that the answers to questions asked of her could implicate her in a criminal charge. That means perjury or obstruction. That means that there are aspects of her SWORN statement which are not truthful (not just that she couldn't remember, or that she was mistaken) but she intentionally lied on her statement. That's a really big deal. In 10 years as a prosecutor, I don't believe I've ever seen that. This puts her credibility really in question.
2. IF (as I've read) part of the settlement of the ROR, both parties agreed to stay away from each other and the players agreed NOT to file civil lawsuits against the accuser, this is INCREDIBLY rare. There was obviously concern from the accuser (and her attorney) that there may be a basis for a civil suit. It was obviously her (and her attorney's) idea to place this in the settlement. Both of these things are admissible in a criminal trial as consciousness of guilt evidence and again, puts her credibility at issue.
3. It's my understanding that none of the players were even arrested. The burden of proof for arrest is probable cause. The prosecutor didn't even believe they could meet that low threshold. Between the statement of the victim and the SANE exam, this burden is really low. If she was forcibly part of a gang rape, the SANE exam would show evidence of this......
4. While this is not part of the legal system, to (allegedly) be suspending players for being at the residence is ridiculous. Djam's encounter was deemed consensual. Is this committee going to start investigating the consensual sex lives of non-athletes at the U? Slippery slope here folks.
5. Finally, what ever happened to time served and timely justice? Some of these players have already sat out three games for what is non-criminal conduct. Does that count for nothing? I can't believe this committee can sit back while the alleged perpetrators are suspended, than reinstated and than try to suspend them (and others) for the bowl game? Double jeopardy, anyone?
I don't blame the players one bit for boycotting. In the end, this could set this program back decades (insert joke here). All of this for what has been deemed by professionals to be non-criminal conduct. Sad.
I'm betting the alleged victim is none too happy about this being brought up again. There is going to be no prosecution criminally, and her version of these events is going to be scrutinized. Some of these players didn't agree not to sue her. Stay tuned."""""""
I never cease to be amazed by how sports fans become such avid, determined, and nuanced students of the law and our criminal justice system when their team is implicated.
Would there be any long term effects of Minnesota backing out of a scheduled bowl game? Would the NCAA or Big Ten punish the Gophers for not going to a game they had already accepted? There would have been no issue if Minnesota declined the original invitation, but backing out at this late a date has all kinds of financial repercussions for the Bowl and San Diego, among others. I would not object to a 3-5 year bowl ban for Minnesota, and if the players are refusing to play, could their scholarships be pulled?
Implied contract, good faith, and public policy exceptions to at-will employment are generally not much to worry about for careful employers.
This isn't a criminal case. No matter what the facts are Minny has completely mishandled this.
BTW, this isn't portrayed as investigating the consensual sex lives of the players. The issue isn't necessarily Djam's act of alleged consensual sex as it is the others getting in line and taking there turn. Who knows what the woman's mindset was at this time, but hopping on as number 5 in succession seems to have no justification even if not illegal. I don't have any sympathy whatsoever for those that jumping into the fray. If the others didn't participate in any way and had no reason to think the woman was in danger, maybe a different story for them. Without knowing facts, it is hard to pass that judgement
And that their determination is based *solely* upon the laundry the player is wearing. So ****ing sad. People are very dumb.
maybe they could
Northern can't even get 20,000 for a home game. If more than 500 of their fans made the trek, I would be surprised.
send the illini, Purdue or Rutgers.
To the thoughts that the law and due process did not find these guys guilty of committing a crime does not make it particularly desirable behavior or behavior you want from people that represent your university. I guess decorum, respect, etc, manners no longer have a place in a legal society.....NOT
Haha clearly not, but in that other thread about NU going I was almost going to write "it's more likely that a 3-9 B1G team like Illinois or Purdue goes to the Holiday Bowl than Northwestern does."
I assume they'd scramble to any of the 5-7 teams to see if they can get them to take the spot per NCAA rules. I further assume the B1G and or Minnesota would have to cover most or all of the costs for this / transfer any of their existing logistics as possible. If they can't get any 5-7 teams that are willing to go (keep in mind, many players from these teams will have already gone home for the holidays), then it gets very ugly. Maybe they then try 4-8 teams, or go back to the B1G? They should be able to find someone, or I guess at that point maybe it's possible that they just have to cancel. Either way, this all sucks for Wazzu too - they haven't traditionally been good so their fans were probably excited for a prestigious bowl game. Now theirs will have this shroud over it regardless of what happens, and they may end up with an unexciting matchup against a 5-7 MAC team. On the bright side, they still get a free trip to sunny So Cal, and an easier path to a bowl victory (which seems to be all that some here care about!).
Side note, no interest in taking sides on any of this, clearly the situation is not a good look for the kids from a ethical / code of conduct side of things, and the fact that there is a video is weird. But I would point out that a lot of people seem to be forgetting those who perpetrated the act (appear to) have already been suspended for 3 games. I know very little of the information and don't claim to, but it does seem weird to me to come back 1-2 months later and re-suspend those players again for the bowl game after they served their time, and then also suspend people that just happened to be there and didn't participate. At this point, to me kicking them off the team would make more sense as a further punishment than belatedly suspending them for 1 more game when they've already served time for 3. Something else must be going on here, or another piece of information hasn't come out. Hope everyone - the young woman and the young men - are able to address this and find closure and move on.
Last edited:
If Minnesota screws this one they should
A. Pay a huge fine and a huge big ten penalty should be paid given the damage they will inflict on the brand. I'd say at least half of what penn state paid.
B. Charter a plane and fly every football player to San Diego to pick up trash for 48 hours while sleeping in the lowest level accommodations possible. Maybe the streets.
Bowls are generally charitable I studious and chamber of commerce promotions for a city.
Minnysoda is looking about as bad as they can look right now.
A. Pay a huge fine and a huge big ten penalty should be paid given the damage they will inflict on the brand. I'd say at least half of what penn state paid.
B. Charter a plane and fly every football player to San Diego to pick up trash for 48 hours while sleeping in the lowest level accommodations possible. Maybe the streets.
Bowls are generally charitable I studious and chamber of commerce promotions for a city.
Minnysoda is looking about as bad as they can look right now.
This is the EOAA's report that led to the actions against the players. Warning; a lot of this is tough to stomach...
Suffice it to say, I believe that the boycott will be ending shortly (unless Leidner, et. al. are completely out of their minds)
http://kstp.com/kstpImages/repository/cs/files/U of M EOAA redacted4.pdf
Suffice it to say, I believe that the boycott will be ending shortly (unless Leidner, et. al. are completely out of their minds)
http://kstp.com/kstpImages/repository/cs/files/U of M EOAA redacted4.pdf
Sounds like members of the team were investigated but no charges filed for similar activities last year. Minnesota in many ways is worse than ped state. This is institutional. Sounds like Jerry kill was really recruiting choir boys to the U.
Also looks like, according to reports, that they will NOT be playing in the bowl and decision will be made on Saturday.
If this occurs, the big ten should put the program on a two year ban from any bowls in the big ten contract n
Also looks like, according to reports, that they will NOT be playing in the bowl and decision will be made on Saturday.
If this occurs, the big ten should put the program on a two year ban from any bowls in the big ten contract n
I couldn't read past the first few pages - this made me sick to my stomach. If accurate those players should face criminal charges and Minnesota's football program should face serious repercussions - and will via the Title XI investigation. Forget the Holiday bowl, this whole ordeal is disgusting. Ugh.
Horrible. And the punishment is a 1 game suspension? Minny should be ashamed.
[One other point: a document stamped PERSONAL AND CONFIDENTIAL should not be released to the public, if for no other reason than to protect the privacy of the accuser. I think it is terribly wrong to make public her humiliation]
Last edited:
If anything half this bad happened at NU I would not be a fan anymore ever, in fact I would encourage the school to drop football altogether. The whole thing is sick and involving a recruit is also sick.
You could argue that at the beginning she could have protested more and maybe , believing what they wanted to believe, the first two participants thought it was consensual but in time it just became sick, sub human activity.
I would not want any team member who read that report and stood in unity with all those involved to be on my team.
It is good to be 6 & 6.
You could argue that at the beginning she could have protested more and maybe , believing what they wanted to believe, the first two participants thought it was consensual but in time it just became sick, sub human activity.
I would not want any team member who read that report and stood in unity with all those involved to be on my team.
It is good to be 6 & 6.
On the main Rivals board it is already being suggested that the NCAA will now have no option other than to get involved due to the presence of the recruit. What is odd is that Minny's coach tweeted to the effect that he has never been prouder of his players. Also bizarre is a former NFL player parent has gone on record to state that his son will leave the Minnesota football team if the president and AD of the university are not fired - impliedly for having OK'd the suspension of the players, one of which is his son.
Latest, directly from Gopherland:
It is a quarter to 9:00 a.m. CT as this is being posted.
The Gophers football team will hold a news conference at 9 a.m. Saturday at the Gibson Nagurski Football Complex to discuss their boycott, an official with the program told the Pioneer Press.
A source with direct knowledge said the Gophers will play in the Holiday Bowl versus Washington State in San Diego on Dec. 27.
But given how team meetings with the University of Minnesota’s Board of Regents and U leaders went on Friday, a second source very early Saturday morning said the prospects for a bowl game looked doubtful.
Gophers players met with members of the Board of Regents and then met with University of Minnesota President Eric Kaler and Athletics Director Mark Coyle on Friday evening. Both meetings weren’t very productive for the football team, the source said.
The team then met on its own until after 1 a.m. and again at 6 a.m. early Saturday morning to discuss options, the source said.
On Thursday, the whole Gophers football team started a boycott of all team activities after 10 teammates were indefinitely suspended “without due process,” they said. The suspensions are related to an alleged sexual assault on Sept. 2
Link:
http://www.twincities.com/2016/12/17/gophers-to-hold-saturday-morning-team-meeting-to-update-boyctt/
Previous reportings had referenced Saturday noon as the drop dead date for Minnesota to commit to playing the bowl game. Impliedly, a continuing player boycott past noon will be followed by Minnesota being uninvited.
It is a quarter to 9:00 a.m. CT as this is being posted.
The Gophers football team will hold a news conference at 9 a.m. Saturday at the Gibson Nagurski Football Complex to discuss their boycott, an official with the program told the Pioneer Press.
A source with direct knowledge said the Gophers will play in the Holiday Bowl versus Washington State in San Diego on Dec. 27.
But given how team meetings with the University of Minnesota’s Board of Regents and U leaders went on Friday, a second source very early Saturday morning said the prospects for a bowl game looked doubtful.
Gophers players met with members of the Board of Regents and then met with University of Minnesota President Eric Kaler and Athletics Director Mark Coyle on Friday evening. Both meetings weren’t very productive for the football team, the source said.
The team then met on its own until after 1 a.m. and again at 6 a.m. early Saturday morning to discuss options, the source said.
On Thursday, the whole Gophers football team started a boycott of all team activities after 10 teammates were indefinitely suspended “without due process,” they said. The suspensions are related to an alleged sexual assault on Sept. 2
Link:
http://www.twincities.com/2016/12/17/gophers-to-hold-saturday-morning-team-meeting-to-update-boyctt/
Previous reportings had referenced Saturday noon as the drop dead date for Minnesota to commit to playing the bowl game. Impliedly, a continuing player boycott past noon will be followed by Minnesota being uninvited.
One of the multiple sad things regarding trump is that people have said he will reduce the focus on universities required reporting of sexual assault on campus.
I definitely agree with one person on this board about if this happened at nu. I bet if this happened at nu, our attendance would average 10-15k or less for years without visiting fans.
I definitely agree with one person on this board about if this happened at nu. I bet if this happened at nu, our attendance would average 10-15k or less for years without visiting fans.
To these players, it appears they have a difficult time understanding what they did was not quite acceptable under the university, let alone human decency, standards. I wonder if they can even distinguish the difference between someone yelling out "Free pizza in Joe's room" and "Free hoe in Fred's room"? Those boys were lining up impatiently waiting their turn and taking pictures like tourists at Walt Disney World.
Well, NCAA hasn't really done much of anything about the Baylor affair nor the widespread academic fraud scandal at North Cheatolina, so I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for them to get involved.
The boycott was a good thing. Without the boycott, the additional reporting wouldn't have shown what an awful operation Minnesota is running.
Agreed. I didn't think a team could replace Ped State at the top of my "most repulsive programs" list, but the Minnesota Golden Rapists are quickly getting up there.
And what does it say that these two awful programs are representing our conference at two of the most prestigious bowls. Delaney disgusts me on top of it all.
The coach is caught in a tough situation. This became an "us" versus "them" situation with the team. Anything other than complete support would have made him a "them." He would have lost the team for the foreseeable future.
On the other hand, the facts of the original handling of the situation may have given the players the idea that he thought they were not in the wrong. I am referring to the fact that the original 3 game suspension was not as much of a suspension as it was the time it took for the athletic department to get the restraining order lifted which the young woman who worked at the stadium had filed. I obviously have no intimate knowledge of the situation but when I read that, I was pretty underwhelmed with the coaching staff.
People? What people? This sounds made up. What motive would he have for championing such a cause? Why is a reference to P-E Trump on this thread? WTH?
I could not disagree more. Anyone with a moral compass who reads that University report knows what went on was wrong. The coach is the adult in the room, and needs to stand up for right and wrong. If he loses his team over this then clean house and bring in young men who know the right way to behave.
Here's the difference between revenue sports and non-revenue sports. Recently, the Washington U. men's soccer program was suspended indefinitely for sexually explicit comments made by its players about the women's soccer team. Similar punishments were handed out for inappropriate comments by other programs recently: "Three men's teams in the Ivy League have been involved in suspensions for similar behavior since November: Harvard University men's soccer, some members of Columbia University's wrestling team and Princeton University's men's swimming and diving team."
Those institutions took it on themselves to punish those sports programs for inappropriate comments that indicated an unacceptable culture.
In big money revenue sports like football, the Minnesota football players can gang bang a woman and fellow student, and the program continues to play on. Ironically, the friggin players were threatening to boycott. There's too many examples - Baylor, Tennessee, etc. It's all about the money.
Those institutions took it on themselves to punish those sports programs for inappropriate comments that indicated an unacceptable culture.
In big money revenue sports like football, the Minnesota football players can gang bang a woman and fellow student, and the program continues to play on. Ironically, the friggin players were threatening to boycott. There's too many examples - Baylor, Tennessee, etc. It's all about the money.
Since when do we need facts now? "A lot of people say" has been justification for a lot of stuff lately.
Latest posts
-
-
Photos of Ryan Field Demolition/Construction- Latest: CoralSpringsCat
-
-
