This was a bad game but
- Thread starter heet75
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Actually, that's what happens. In the real sports world, you get cut or replaced by someone that does it better. That's for coaches and players.
I feel bad for the folks in Houston and FL. If college age players receiving hundreds of thousands in benefits to play a game can't take the heat after their own poor performance, then they should seek a safe space and stay off the field.
I am not one that easily jumps on the replace the coach train. My point was that I think we aren't getting the most out OT the talent they have. I am sure there are plenty of reasons for it.
Imagine yourself as a solid OL recruit. Most kids in college football, at this level, are competitive and see themselves in the NFL. So why come here if that is the path? Looks like a deadend to me. Even one of our best OL got cut in the early pre season a few years ago as they couldn't believe he had no preparation regarding technique.
I am not a fan of this offense at all. I miss the 90 plays a game we used to get. Win or lose those were fun to watch. I am not sure about being married to the power running but there is no doubt that is what they want to do. I think Fitz thinks of JJ as Darnell and we can control the ball like the Rose Bowl team. We can't and we don't have near the defense. We need to switch now...we cannot grind as we are going to need to score a lot of points. Your observation of the empty backfield was spot on.
The difference in player development between Bret Ingalls and Cushing is, to me, what is most damning about the situation. We've had a few (relatively) highly touted oline recruits in recents years yet remain pedestrian in the trenches.
Edit: Which is why Ingalls was poached by the Saints and now has found a home at Florida.
Edit: Which is why Ingalls was poached by the Saints and now has found a home at Florida.
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Wait a minute. That is a big statement to make with no facts attached. Who? What? When? Who is they? especially. I'd like to see your source.
I will concede the coaches have gotten what they can out of this group. But when the same deficiencies exit over a period of years, responsibility still rests with the coaches. There are times in any underperforming organization when nothing short of change will allow for a step forward. NU football has reached that time. Recruiting better OLM is the only answer, but that isn't going to happen without change. And don't assume I know nothing about recruiting. If you did, you would be wrong.
GOUNUII
Ok, definitely secondhand so I don't have the questions down. BV. That was the who. Which team, dunno. At least that was the water fountain talk on Saturday.
Here is the question, would you rather our OL not progress this year and get to 6 or 7 wins, or just hope for a meltdown so things can be re-evaluated?
IMO, no matter how much we talk about things here, Fitz will not change coaches so it would be quite foolish for someone to hope that the OL has a meltdown this year. The only coaches who leave are the good ones who take better jobs and advance their profession. OTOH, Fitz has done pretty damn good at holding on to many good ones on his staff. So, don't we have to take the good with the bad?
It was Brandon Vitabile, a 4 year starter at NU. He was cut by the Colts a few years back and I also heard they could not believe that a 4 year starter in the Big Ten had had so little understanding of proper OL technique.
No. Please go ahead and name names and explain your criticisms. Counting down now. 7 6 5 4 3 2 1... specific player criticisma from GCG coming any second...
North still struggles to anchor in the pass game after five years. Doles has had a ton of missed assignments already this year. Slater and Vogel lose leverage too often. Butler struggles laterally. Hance is prone to sleep walking. Thomas is easily bull rushed at 285.
Translation ... we don't have OLM with the physical/mental tools to compete against the likes of Duke.
Translation II ... Recruiting ... recruiting ... recruiting! No tackles playing well, maybe none in the pipeline given that we're now playing OGs at OT, and we recruit 3 more OGs for the 2018 class.
GOUNUII
But when we see the same issues with the same groups year after year... Players change but the coaches have not. Some is obviously explainable but other stuff... Injuries in secondary. Youth and inexperience at LB, etc.
Slater and Vogel are at least somewhat explainable as it is there first shot. The rest...
Again, it's a matter of trends. Over the past few years, has the trend been the O-Line generally performing well with occasional bad games or generally performing poorly with occasional good games?
I recall a time when we had issues with the secondary year after year after year. And it was all Jerry Brown's fault! Good thing Fitz listened to the board justice warriors and fired him... oh wait....
But seriously, for all I know, Cushing could be the weak link here and if Fitz fires him, all could be perfect. But from what I saw Saturday, the OLine was one of many problems we had, and, perhaps not even the worst one. Outside of the kicking game, it was a truly a team effort to play as poorly as we did.
But seriously, for all I know, Cushing could be the weak link here and if Fitz fires him, all could be perfect. But from what I saw Saturday, the OLine was one of many problems we had, and, perhaps not even the worst one. Outside of the kicking game, it was a truly a team effort to play as poorly as we did.
The difference, Mike, is that Jerry Brown has "been there and done that". He has succeeded at both he college and pro levels. Cushing has not.
That's a fairly critical and significant difference - the difference between actually having had success in the past and still having your fingers crossed for your first iota of success - is it not?
That's a fairly critical and significant difference - the difference between actually having had success in the past and still having your fingers crossed for your first iota of success - is it not?
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Wow! Well, that is extremely damning and to my thinking explains 90% of our offensive trouble dating back to when TS was getting massacred and played hurt all season. It all starts with the line IMO. What OL recruit with even the least aspiration to play on Sunday would go to a school with that reputation? It was only one quote and could have been said by someone who has a grudge against NU or even B1G teams in general but still if that is out there you have to undo it some how.
This is serious stuff IMO. I'm still going to wait till after the PSU game to call the season a total loss and hope that the line experiment will coalesce but if they aren't getting good technique specific for OLmen, I have to wonder if they are getting good strength training specific to OLmen. etc. I have to stop now.
Mike - I think the biggest differences between the complaints about Hank and Brown compared to Cushing is that Hank and Brown have overseen elite units in their careers. They can certainly have bad years as coaches but they have proven the ability to deliver championship level units. Cushing most definitely has not.
Even with our best lines under Cushing (11/12) which were pretty good I would argue they significantly underperformed their talent / potential. Should have been dominant and they weren't. Combine that with my view based on close watching over the years that our OL technique is quite poor on a number of different dimensions. (This is something I do know a lot about despite rarely posting()
people often overreact to recent performances and we on the outside don't know the multitude of reasons units can be struggling. There can also be a real friction cost to staff turnover. Overall I do value loyalty and would much rather change coaches two years too late than act in knee jerk fashion.
But our OL has been an issue for years and there is no evidence of any change or improvement in approach.l that I can see. Honestly, OL technique isnt rocket science. Even if Cushing was behind the curve in 2009 he's had more than enough time to figure it out but he hasn't. He's the only coach I've ever advocated letting go, and it is way past time.
I think our QB and WR play was the bigger issue on Saturday in the passing game than OL pass blocking. But the pass blocking wasn't good enough either (and our run blocking this year is laughably brutal). We're too inconsistent on the OL and our best isn't good enough and hasn't been for years.
Even with our best lines under Cushing (11/12) which were pretty good I would argue they significantly underperformed their talent / potential. Should have been dominant and they weren't. Combine that with my view based on close watching over the years that our OL technique is quite poor on a number of different dimensions. (This is something I do know a lot about despite rarely posting()
people often overreact to recent performances and we on the outside don't know the multitude of reasons units can be struggling. There can also be a real friction cost to staff turnover. Overall I do value loyalty and would much rather change coaches two years too late than act in knee jerk fashion.
But our OL has been an issue for years and there is no evidence of any change or improvement in approach.l that I can see. Honestly, OL technique isnt rocket science. Even if Cushing was behind the curve in 2009 he's had more than enough time to figure it out but he hasn't. He's the only coach I've ever advocated letting go, and it is way past time.
I think our QB and WR play was the bigger issue on Saturday in the passing game than OL pass blocking. But the pass blocking wasn't good enough either (and our run blocking this year is laughably brutal). We're too inconsistent on the OL and our best isn't good enough and hasn't been for years.
Agreed on the WR and QB issue.
As for calling for coach firings, what about the criticism of our RB coach when the RBs didn't do well. And the WRs coach when they didn't do well? I could go on and on.
The point is, outsiders have little basis on which to make informed criticisms. Now perhaps the situation with Cushing is different since some insiders have complained here, but still I would be reluctant to state that a coach should be fired based on a few insider complaints as well (since people who would tend positive things generally don't comment on message boards). And the overall track record of this board is awful in recommending people who should be fired.
"And the overall track record of this board is awful in recommending people who should be fired."
... as is the overall track record of this board in insisting that coaches stay on. In fact that track record is far worse, for example in this case, and let's not forget the "you simply can't fire Carmody. That would be suicide. It'll kill the program!" crowd.
And by the way, when did we have bad running backs and people called for Macpherson's job? Perhaps it's me because I haven't had my morning coffee yet, but what in the world are you even talking about?
We've had Tyrell Sutton, Venric Mark and JJTBC, which covers most of a decade+! So you're clearly not talking about recent history. Are you talking about the Jacob Schmidt and Mike Trumpy years? Seriously, do you think anybody blamed that on Macpherson? If they did, they're obviously not terribly bright. That's not coaching at all. That's talent, pure and simple.
Is that what you were talking about? Wow, if so, that's quite a rhetorical stretch. I don't recall anyone talking about Macpherson's job because of Schmidt and Trumpy's (shall we say) shortcomings as pure runners at the Big Ten level.
... as is the overall track record of this board in insisting that coaches stay on. In fact that track record is far worse, for example in this case, and let's not forget the "you simply can't fire Carmody. That would be suicide. It'll kill the program!" crowd.
And by the way, when did we have bad running backs and people called for Macpherson's job? Perhaps it's me because I haven't had my morning coffee yet, but what in the world are you even talking about?
We've had Tyrell Sutton, Venric Mark and JJTBC, which covers most of a decade+! So you're clearly not talking about recent history. Are you talking about the Jacob Schmidt and Mike Trumpy years? Seriously, do you think anybody blamed that on Macpherson? If they did, they're obviously not terribly bright. That's not coaching at all. That's talent, pure and simple.
Is that what you were talking about? Wow, if so, that's quite a rhetorical stretch. I don't recall anyone talking about Macpherson's job because of Schmidt and Trumpy's (shall we say) shortcomings as pure runners at the Big Ten level.
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Another important post. Everyone is in agreement that Cushing's time has come. Even people who are very, very reluctant to grab their pitchforks.
You must be new here! Welcome to the boards!
Macpherson was subject to all kinds of ridiculous criticism back then by folks who think being an RB coach requires esoteric know-how that only a former D1 RB can provide.
I was never in the fire JB camp and most are not suggesting firing Cushing. We are in favor of the experiment ending and bringing in someone who can get our OL performance up to at least average. Cushing can then be moved to an area where he is better able to perform. Win, Win. The info on Vitable is pretty damming.
He must be new. Or maybe purposely trying to forget the stretch when our starting running backs were Adonis Smith, Arby Fields, Scott Concannon, and Jacob Schmidt. All nice young men but not in the same class as JJTBC, Mark, Sutton.
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