What real data do we have that NU admissions for bball is much different than peers

[torque-cat]

I hear a lot of complaining but I have never seen any robust, real data to show that our admissions for basketball are far different than our academic peers--most of whom besides Duke are not perennial basketball contenders either. There are some old wive's tales floating around, but no real and recent data. Here are some observations that make it hard to believe that admissions is some all-powerful empire within the administration that is idiotic, unreasonable and unequaled in their influence.

1. Patrick Ryan, long time board chairman, donated tens maybe even hundreds of millions of his own money to NU sports. He was among the two most powerful people at NU for a long time--why would he donate so much if he felt admissions was unfair and prevented us from being highly competitive. Certainly he would be motivated and capable of doing something about it, or otherwise could have withheld donations.

2. Morty and Bienen are the past 2 presidents and most powerful people at NU and also huge sports fans. Are we suggesting they have no ability or will to make reasonable adjustments to revenue athlete admissions?

3. Fitz has been turning down NFL interviews and other major college opportunities. Is he so wedded to mediocrity or comfort that he is willing to take a dead-end coach job where he cannot compete long-term at a high level due to admissions?

4. We raised a quarter billion dollars for facilities upgrades--presumably the mega-rich donors who are smart enough about money to become mega-rich didn't care that admissions was stupid and would prevent success? Were they all duped?

5. Jim Phillips is one of the most acclaimed ADs in the country. He has the wherewithal to raise hundreds of millions, attract and retain excellent coaches, but not to influence reasonable admissions standards? And despite that he has stayed here all these years settling for mediocrity as a result of the all-powerful and incompetent admissions office?

6. In the 90s apparently Tommy Amaker turned down the job because admissions was too difficult--who knows if this is true. But now another Duke alum, CC, is teary when accepting this "dream job" with the full support of Coach K. Presumably Coach K and CC are smart enough to ask those questions about reasonable admissions before taking the job particularly after their fellow Dookie was so turned off by it 25 yrs ago.

I think there are many reasons for NU being an amazing yet challenging place for revenue sports, but the all-powerful and incompetent admissions narrative has a lot of gaps and nobody ever presents any real, robust comparative data to support it. In truth the data likely is not available because NU and most peers are private schools that don't share this. But we blame admissions on a regular basis with anecdotal and dubious evidence at best.

 

[GatoLouco]

Great points.

But when there's no transparency...

 

[torque-cat]

Great points.

But when there's no transparency...

What would you like NU admissions to do--publicly release data on the kids they accept and reject? And then also obtain similar data from peer institutions for fans?

 

[GatoLouco]

What would you like NU admissions to do--publicly release data on the kids they accept and reject? And then also obtain similar data from peer institutions for fans?

No. There's enough lack of privacy as it is.

But knowing the minimum requirements would be nice.

 

[haywood jahblowme]

I hear a lot of complaining but I have never seen any robust, real data to show that our admissions for basketball are far different than our academic peers--most of whom besides Duke are not perennial basketball contenders either. There are some old wive's tales floating around, but no real and recent data. Here are some observations that make it hard to believe that admissions is some all-powerful empire within the administration that is idiotic, unreasonable and unequaled in their influence.

1. Patrick Ryan, long time board chairman, donated tens maybe even hundreds of millions of his own money to NU sports. He was among the two most powerful people at NU for a long time--why would he donate so much if he felt admissions was unfair and prevented us from being highly competitive. Certainly he would be motivated and capable of doing something about it, or otherwise could have withheld donations.

2. Morty and Bienen are the past 2 presidents and most powerful people at NU and also huge sports fans. Are we suggesting they have no ability or will to make reasonable adjustments to revenue athlete admissions?

3. Fitz has been turning down NFL interviews and other major college opportunities. Is he so wedded to mediocrity or comfort that he is willing to take a dead-end coach job where he cannot compete long-term at a high level due to admissions?

4. We raised a quarter billion dollars for facilities upgrades--presumably the mega-rich donors who are smart enough about money to become mega-rich didn't care that admissions was stupid and would prevent success? Were they all duped?

5. Jim Phillips is one of the most acclaimed ADs in the country. He has the wherewithal to raise hundreds of millions, attract and retain excellent coaches, but not to influence reasonable admissions standards? And despite that he has stayed here all these years settling for mediocrity as a result of the all-powerful and incompetent admissions office?

6. In the 90s apparently Tommy Amaker turned down the job because admissions was too difficult--who knows if this is true. But now another Duke alum, CC, is teary when accepting this "dream job" with the full support of Coach K. Presumably Coach K and CC are smart enough to ask those questions about reasonable admissions before taking the job particularly after their fellow Dookie was so turned off by it 25 yrs ago.

I think there are many reasons for NU being an amazing yet challenging place for revenue sports, but the all-powerful and incompetent admissions narrative has a lot of gaps and nobody ever presents any real, robust comparative data to support it. In truth the data likely is not available because NU and most peers are private schools that don't share this. But we blame admissions on a regular basis with anecdotal and dubious evidence at best.

well since no one is going to come out and say it from the NU side on why a kid won't be admitted - i think the best example is the fact the CPF and CCC have as long a leash as they do regarding W/L and building programs. if you can't connect the dots

#1 he was/is on the BOT for a long time and wanted to do his part to make NU competitive in athletics. he has fought that battle for many many years

#2 yes - also i hear there is ONE special admissions person (not a committee) and morty can't just say "hey, im letting these kids in"

#3 - why leave when get paid big bucks and its ok to go 5 wins back to back years. heat on fitz this past year? a fraction of what it would be elsewhere. why do you think NU celebrates GPA, APR, and grad rates almost more than it celebrates wins. because it HAS to. because thats the narrative.

#4 because they know FACILITIES play as big a part in the game as anything else. NU has closed the gap there. also lets not forget the selfish aspect to that comes along with these ... aka naming rights?

#5 yes (and he would be B1G commish if had been offered)

#6 you've never taken a job and didn't fully understand an aspect of it even if you thought you did? no inside info here but i could see NU said we'll work with you and CCC was ok good, and then NU is more along the lines of yeah well work with you by letting kids that are still really smart but not NU smart, but not a kid who had a D in high school in.


do you really think MBB and FB wouldn't recruit certain kids and areas HARD (for instance the CPS) for athletes if they could get those kids in? do you think CFP and CCC purposely don't want high level athletes because they don't fit the normal NU profile or they don't want to coach those kids? or do you think its because MOST come from areas where the academic profile or high school support does not position the kid to get into NU. think about how RARE it is to hear about a kid failing out of NU. the issue is not the classwork. the issue is getting kids in.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

What would you like NU admissions to do--publicly release data on the kids they accept and reject? And then also obtain similar data from peer institutions for fans?

Well, you may call the wives tales, but there has been plenty of people that have confirmed athletes admission to NU is more difficult than any other school in the conference they compete in and more restrictive than just about all P5 schools.

We will get feedback from former coaches and people in the know, has anyone ever said we have access to anywhere near a similar pool of players? Anyone?

How about grad students we can’t get admitted because of a college prep score 5-6 years earlier? Forget the fact that they graduated from an accredited college. How about the Transfer from Valpo that wanted to come to NU but admissions vetoed it. How about the player at Ilinois who was very interested but we couldn’t offer. Going to the NBA soon.

The beat goes on. CCC has done an incredible job recruiting with the limitations he has. His success has become a double edge sword. People say well we got to the Tourney with these restrictions, so why change them. They forget that level of performance is not sustainable. If it was CCC would either have a statue in front of WR or eventually get fed up and bolt to where his pool of talent goes up 5 fold. We have been to the NCAA tournament ONE time.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

well since no one is going to come out and say it from the NU side on why a kid won't be admitted - i think the best example is the fact the CPF and CCC have as long a leash as they do regarding W/L and building programs. if you can't connect the dots

#1 he was/is on the BOT for a long time and wanted to do his part to make NU competitive in athletics. he has fought that battle for many many years

#2 yes - also i hear there is ONE special admissions person (not a committee) and morty can't just say "hey, im letting these kids in"

#3 - why leave when get paid big bucks and its ok to go 5 wins back to back years. heat on fitz this past year? a fraction of what it would be elsewhere. why do you think NU celebrates GPA, APR, and grad rates almost more than it celebrates wins. because it HAS to. because thats the narrative.

#4 because they know FACILITIES play as big a part in the game as anything else. NU has closed the gap there. also lets not forget the selfish aspect to that comes along with these ... aka naming rights?

#5 yes (and he would be B1G commish if had been offered)

#6 you've never taken a job and didn't fully understand an aspect of it even if you thought you did? no inside info here but i could see NU said we'll work with you and CCC was ok good, and then NU is more along the lines of yeah well work with you by letting kids that are still really smart but not NU smart, but not a kid who had a D in high school in.


do you really think MBB and FB wouldn't recruit certain kids and areas HARD (for instance the CPS) for athletes if they could get those kids in? do you think CFP and CCC purposely don't want high level athletes because they don't fit the normal NU profile or they don't want to coach those kids? or do you think its because MOST come from areas where the academic profile or high school support does not position the kid to get into NU. think about how RARE it is to hear about a kid failing out of NU. the issue is not the classwork. the issue is getting kids in.

Bravo! Your best work.

 

[Medill90]

I hear a lot of complaining but I have never seen any robust, real data to show that our admissions for basketball are far different than our academic peers--most of whom besides Duke are not perennial basketball contenders either.

How do you explain the fact that Illinois has 4 times as many offers out as NU for the 2021 class? That is a pretty typical ratio that spans multiple NU coaches.

It's been brought up here before. Lots of times.

What's the competitive advantage of making one-quarter the offers as a conference competitors during a period you've not filled all your scholarships?

 

[IdahoAlum]

Reasonable people can disagree, and I certainly do not have the insight into the program that others on here do. (Although I did interview Tex Winter 40 years ago and he complained to me about admissions back then. - But the one thing I can't get past is the idea that the President of the University can't go have a talk with the head of admissions and make a reasonable case for reasonable admissions standards for athletes. I just can't get my head around the idea that he is that powerless. And how is he that powerless? Is there some kind of mandate or dictate from the Board of Trustees that the President can't talk to admissions? Maybe there is, I don't know. But that's one area that defies logic.

The other issue I have is that coaches, or supporters of coaches, can always use admissions as a scapegoat, but by all accounts (numbers of offers from other Big Ten schools, star rankings, testimonials of Chris Collins supporters), Collins appears to have been able to recruit more talent than any of his predecessors. And the fact that NU has been in so many close games over the last two years is further testimony that NU has the talent to compete. And yet they can't seem to win games. That is always a red flag for me -- good coaches figure out how to win close games. That, to me, is the definition of a good coach. Not a good recruiter, not a good "program builder" -- but somebody who knows what buttons to push in order to get the W.

It's one reason I don't take much comfort in all the "close loses" and halftime leads lost that seem to lead others to the Cubs' forever motto, "Wait 'Til Next Year."

 

[Medill90]

Reasonable people can disagree, and I certainly do not have the insight into the program that others on here do. (Although I did interview Tex Winter 40 years ago and he complained to me about admissions back then. - But the one thing I can't get past is the idea that the President of the University can't go have a talk with the head of admissions and make a reasonable case for reasonable admissions standards for athletes. I just can't get my head around the idea that he is that powerless. And how is he that powerless? Is there some kind of mandate or dictate from the Board of Trustees that the President can't talk to admissions? Maybe there is, I don't know. But that's one area that defies logic.

Others may know better but it's my understanding that Morty has argued and advocated the "let more student athletes in" based on the fact that it's a pathway to making the school more diverse.

He doesn't mandate because the faculty is not there and he risks losing their support by doing so. So, he hopes over time to persuade.

 

[CoralSpringsCat]

It's been an issue for years...one example for basketball was Matt Maloney. Vanderbilt transfer who wanted to play for Bill Foster at NU. Admisson was denied and he ended up transferring to Penn! Went on to have a terrific career both at Penn and in the NBA. Poor Foster...that was a tough pill for him and Coach Donlon to swallow.

 

[gocatsgo2003]

I hear a lot of complaining but I have never seen any robust, real data to show that our admissions for basketball are far different than our academic peers--most of whom besides Duke are not perennial basketball contenders either. There are some old wive's tales floating around, but no real and recent data. Here are some observations that make it hard to believe that admissions is some all-powerful empire within the administration that is idiotic, unreasonable and unequaled in their influence.

1. Patrick Ryan, long time board chairman, donated tens maybe even hundreds of millions of his own money to NU sports. He was among the two most powerful people at NU for a long time--why would he donate so much if he felt admissions was unfair and prevented us from being highly competitive. Certainly he would be motivated and capable of doing something about it, or otherwise could have withheld donations.

2. Morty and Bienen are the past 2 presidents and most powerful people at NU and also huge sports fans. Are we suggesting they have no ability or will to make reasonable adjustments to revenue athlete admissions?

3. Fitz has been turning down NFL interviews and other major college opportunities. Is he so wedded to mediocrity or comfort that he is willing to take a dead-end coach job where he cannot compete long-term at a high level due to admissions?

4. We raised a quarter billion dollars for facilities upgrades--presumably the mega-rich donors who are smart enough about money to become mega-rich didn't care that admissions was stupid and would prevent success? Were they all duped?

5. Jim Phillips is one of the most acclaimed ADs in the country. He has the wherewithal to raise hundreds of millions, attract and retain excellent coaches, but not to influence reasonable admissions standards? And despite that he has stayed here all these years settling for mediocrity as a result of the all-powerful and incompetent admissions office?

6. In the 90s apparently Tommy Amaker turned down the job because admissions was too difficult--who knows if this is true. But now another Duke alum, CC, is teary when accepting this "dream job" with the full support of Coach K. Presumably Coach K and CC are smart enough to ask those questions about reasonable admissions before taking the job particularly after their fellow Dookie was so turned off by it 25 yrs ago.

I think there are many reasons for NU being an amazing yet challenging place for revenue sports, but the all-powerful and incompetent admissions narrative has a lot of gaps and nobody ever presents any real, robust comparative data to support it. In truth the data likely is not available because NU and most peers are private schools that don't share this. But we blame admissions on a regular basis with anecdotal and dubious evidence at best.

Admissions is a major league pain in the ass, even for revenue athletes.

 

[torque-cat]

La

Admissions is a major league pain in the ass, even for revenue athletes.

Last I saw numbers the average revenue athlete’s board scores were about 400 pts lower than the rest of the student body. Should we lower the standard to “can you spell your name?”

 

[7th Cir. Cat]

Others may know better but it's my understanding that Morty has argued and advocated the "let more student athletes in" based on the fact that it's a pathway to making the school more diverse.

He doesn't mandate because the faculty is not there and he risks losing their support by doing so. So, he hopes over time to persuade.

I don't buy this one. Letting in one or two more borderline basketball kids will not make the school "more diverse." A handful of these kids is not going to move the needle i.e., our incoming class will still likely have roughly the same overall percentage of diversity.

I think Morty has the power to get some kids in. Maybe he has already and we don't even know about it . . .

 

[gocatsgo2003]

Last I saw numbers the average revenue athlete’s board scores were about 400 pts lower than the rest of the student body. Should we lower the standard to “can you spell your name?”

No, but the standard is appreciably higher than NCAA minimums and that is a difficulty for NU. I’m not sure folks around here appreciate just low low the bar is for NCAA qualification. It’s laughably lax.

That’s especially true because there are no “hard and fast” rules (ie a kid gets in with at least a 1000 SAT if he has a 3.3 core GPA, etc.). Every kid is a “case by case” basis, so there’s always some grey area. The issues arise when admissions delivers a surprise decline.

I’ve long felt that coaches should have however much “room” they want so long as the team’s academic performance remains satisfactory.

 

[Medill90]

I don't buy this one. Letting in one or two more borderline basketball kids will not make the school "more diverse." A handful of these kids is not going to move the needle i.e., our incoming class will still likely have roughly the same overall percentage of diversity.

I think Morty has the power to get some kids in. Maybe he has already and we don't even know about it . . .

The Morty argument, as it was described to me, was across all sports, not just revenue sports.

African Americans as a percentage of total undergrad enrollment is 5.7%, or approx 476 students. Or, 120 students/year. Fyi, African Americans as a percent to U.S. population is 12%. (NU is also under represented by latinos and whites)

19 sports IIRC...a bit over one more scholly a year to African Americans and you jump the percentage 10%.

Which is pissing me off as I think about it.

 

[IdahoAlum]

The Morty argument, as it was described to me, was across all sports, not just revenue sports.

African Americans as a percentage of total undergrad enrollment is 5.7%, or approx 476 students. Or, 120 students/year. Fyi, African Americans as a percent to U.S. population is 12%. (NU is also under represented by latinos and whites)

19 sports IIRC...a bit over one more scholly a year to African Americans and you jump the percentage 10%.

Which is pissing me off as I think about it.

But what if that one special admit we want in basketball is white? Damn, there goes the percentages...

 

[NJCat]

But what if that one special admit we want in basketball is white? Damn, there goes the percentages...

Bada Bing!

 

[FeralFelidae]

Why has football been able to enjoy much more consistent success despite the admissions hurdles when it takes SO MANY more players to build a football team than a basketball team?

You would think it would be HARDER to build a winning football team?

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

Why has football been able to enjoy much more consistent success despite the admissions hurdles when it takes SO MANY more players to build a football team than a basketball team?

You would think it would be HARDER to build a winning football team?

The pool of players to recruit from is higher.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

The Morty argument, as it was described to me, was across all sports, not just revenue sports.

African Americans as a percentage of total undergrad enrollment is 5.7%, or approx 476 students. Or, 120 students/year. Fyi, African Americans as a percent to U.S. population is 12%. (NU is also under represented by latinos and whites)

19 sports IIRC...a bit over one more scholly a year to African Americans and you jump the percentage 10%.

Which is pissing me off as I think about it.

NU makes a choice in this. If they wanted their student body to look more like the US population they would admit more AA’s Latino’s and yes even whites.

 

[gocatsgo2003]

Why has football been able to enjoy much more consistent success despite the admissions hurdles when it takes SO MANY more players to build a football team than a basketball team?

You would think it would be HARDER to build a winning football team?

Basketball is much more “top heavy” in that one or two truly elite players can elevate an entire team. Football requires much more top-to-bottom roster depth to compete.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

Basketball is much more “top heavy” in that one or two truly elite players can elevate an entire team. Football requires much more top-to-bottom roster depth to compete.

Exactly why NU has not broken through. Very good talent without the elite difference maker.

 

[haywood jahblowme]

The pool of players to recruit from is higher.

apples to oranges
CPF win % - .576
CCC win % - .512

 

[torque-cat]

Why has football been able to enjoy much more consistent success despite the admissions hurdles when it takes SO MANY more players to build a football team than a basketball team?

You would think it would be HARDER to build a winning football team?

Football can be much more of a developmental sport. In b-ball all these kids mostly play each other in AAU and other tourneys and there is direct evaluation. I’m football the scouting is less direct and the bodies are not nearly as developed as they will be. It’s also a sport requiring coordination of dozens of players whereas in b-ball 1 or 2 stars can carry you. That said football has been living on the plus side of close games and b-ball on the negative side. Neither has much room for error as we saw this year in football.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

apples to oranges
CPF win % - .576
CCC win % - .512

The is a big difference. I bet the spread is more for just B1G games.

 

[torque-cat]

No, but the standard is appreciably higher than NCAA minimums and that is a difficulty for NU. I’m not sure folks around here appreciate just low low the bar is for NCAA qualification. It’s laughably lax.

That’s especially true because there are no “hard and fast” rules (ie a kid gets in with at least a 1000 SAT if he has a 3.3 core GPA, etc.). Every kid is a “case by case” basis, so there’s always some grey area. The issues arise when admissions delivers a surprise decline.

I’ve long felt that coaches should have however much “room” they want so long as the team’s academic performance remains satisfactory.

which coaches should have as much room as they want? All sports, some sports? What about music and drama profs, can they have the same leeway since many of their alums are prominent alums?

 

[gocatsgo2003]

which coaches should have as much room as they want? All sports, some sports? What about music and drama profs, can they have the same leeway since many of their alums are prominent alums?

Revenue sports.

Music and drama profs do have leeway because they’re also recruiting/looking for a very particular skill that isn’t measured well by GPA or standardized testing.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

which coaches should have as much room as they want? All sports, some sports? What about music and drama profs, can they have the same leeway since many of their alums are prominent alums?

Sure. It’s unique skill set.

 

[IGNORE2]

Bravo! Your best work.

Then fire the President or the AD or whoever. We don’t ever have people flunk out. I don’t remember any from my years and not for a lack of effort.

So if the school wants to compete, wants to impose various donation requirements, wants to be taken seriously - then make a change. Make a change somewhere.

I cannot see the amount of money that Ryan throws around to not be able to make a change in policy. Maybe blame Ryan for not using his money more as a sword.

 

[Titanium999]

I hear a lot of complaining but I have never seen any robust, real data to show that our admissions for basketball are far different than our academic peers--most of whom besides Duke are not perennial basketball contenders either. There are some old wive's tales floating around, but no real and recent data. Here are some observations that make it hard to believe that admissions is some all-powerful empire within the administration that is idiotic, unreasonable and unequaled in their influence.

1. Patrick Ryan, long time board chairman, donated tens maybe even hundreds of millions of his own money to NU sports. He was among the two most powerful people at NU for a long time--why would he donate so much if he felt admissions was unfair and prevented us from being highly competitive. Certainly he would be motivated and capable of doing something about it, or otherwise could have withheld donations.

2. Morty and Bienen are the past 2 presidents and most powerful people at NU and also huge sports fans. Are we suggesting they have no ability or will to make reasonable adjustments to revenue athlete admissions?

3. Fitz has been turning down NFL interviews and other major college opportunities. Is he so wedded to mediocrity or comfort that he is willing to take a dead-end coach job where he cannot compete long-term at a high level due to admissions?

4. We raised a quarter billion dollars for facilities upgrades--presumably the mega-rich donors who are smart enough about money to become mega-rich didn't care that admissions was stupid and would prevent success? Were they all duped?

5. Jim Phillips is one of the most acclaimed ADs in the country. He has the wherewithal to raise hundreds of millions, attract and retain excellent coaches, but not to influence reasonable admissions standards? And despite that he has stayed here all these years settling for mediocrity as a result of the all-powerful and incompetent admissions office?

6. In the 90s apparently Tommy Amaker turned down the job because admissions was too difficult--who knows if this is true. But now another Duke alum, CC, is teary when accepting this "dream job" with the full support of Coach K. Presumably Coach K and CC are smart enough to ask those questions about reasonable admissions before taking the job particularly after their fellow Dookie was so turned off by it 25 yrs ago.

I think there are many reasons for NU being an amazing yet challenging place for revenue sports, but the all-powerful and incompetent admissions narrative has a lot of gaps and nobody ever presents any real, robust comparative data to support it. In truth the data likely is not available because NU and most peers are private schools that don't share this. But we blame admissions on a regular basis with anecdotal and dubious evidence at best.

I was a high school counselor. Kids with 32 ACTs were routinely rejected by Northwestern! Dang!

 

[phatcat]

don't have time this morning to read all comments, apologies if duplicate

Basketball WAS competitive - sort of - for most of the period from 2004 to 2018. Something like 3 really bad years in there. yes there was some handwringing about the NCAA drought, now over, but we had solid, competitive teams most of the time. Maybe not Zion Williamson types but we got good, solid players and won some games. Recruiting was blamed, remember, on sourpuss Carmody, not standards. Now, suddenly, admissions standards are a problme

The problem, for me, anyway, is the inexplicable collapse since the tourney year. Not just wins, but, seriously - EIGHT scholarship players? How do you even practice? And this includes a lacrosse player and a transfer. No upper class of recruits at ail. This is a complete failure at a time when recruiting should have been at its zenith.

Also, I'm just not seeing the 'wait til next year' thing. It seems that we've lowered our expectations bar so much that we are excited if one or two of our players look like actual B1G starters, instead of expecting five of same, and an all-B1G 2nd teamer in there.

To me, the fact that many of us are just hoping, that maybe, somehow, we might make the NIT in two years is just...sad

Usual disclaimer - casual fan, just not seeing it. For the record, I feel football will recover next year but if not - same question - competitive for 24 years then collapse?

Finally, NU is an institution of higher learning, first and foremost. I care nothing for having one and done players strictly for entertainment purposes. What's the point?

 

[GatoLouco]

It seems that we've lowered our expectations bar so much

We are wired to do so. And I can't stand it.

I will share an example that I am sure most of us have plenty of similar ones.

My brother in law is a big Gophers fan. His family has had season tickets for decades. He goes to every game and follows the B1G pretty closely.

During Xmas I went to a Gophers game with him, against Florida International. I was joking around telling him "Enjoy it now, because next week we are coming into this arena and leaving with a win". He looked at me, shrugged his should and said in a very condescending way "We are not losing to Northwestern".

Often is similar in the office with the Purdue and IU fans. Pretty obvious in their minds I am the guy to entertain but not take seriously. Because, you know... Northwestern. Football, slightly different.

After making the tournament. After being 10-6 this decade against Minny. That is still how we are seen. That school that once in a while wins a game.

That's other school's fans. But I'm afraid it is most of our fan base. Judging from how many people, and students, we have in the stands, that's definitely our fan base.

This board has a lot more of us, who don't want to settle for occasionally winning, than the NU population at large. Still a whole lot of folks here that are fine with the occasional NIT season.

 

[haywood jahblowme]

don't have time this morning to read all comments, apologies if duplicate

Basketball WAS competitive - sort of - for most of the period from 2004 to 2018. Something like 3 really bad years in there. yes there was some handwringing about the NCAA drought, now over, but we had solid, competitive teams most of the time. Maybe not Zion Williamson types but we got good, solid players and won some games. Recruiting was blamed, remember, on sourpuss Carmody, not standards. Now, suddenly, admissions standards are a problme

The problem, for me, anyway, is the inexplicable collapse since the tourney year. Not just wins, but, seriously - EIGHT scholarship players? How do you even practice? And this includes a lacrosse player and a transfer. No upper class of recruits at ail. This is a complete failure at a time when recruiting should have been at its zenith.

Also, I'm just not seeing the 'wait til next year' thing. It seems that we've lowered our expectations bar so much that we are excited if one or two of our players look like actual B1G starters, instead of expecting five of same, and an all-B1G 2nd teamer in there.

To me, the fact that many of us are just hoping, that maybe, somehow, we might make the NIT in two years is just...sad

Usual disclaimer - casual fan, just not seeing it. For the record, I feel football will recover next year but if not - same question - competitive for 24 years then collapse?

Finally, NU is an institution of higher learning, first and foremost. I care nothing for having one and done players strictly for entertainment purposes. What's the point?

i would say we are as competitive as we have been - just not seeing the wins right now

 

[haywood jahblowme]

We are wired to do so. And I can't stand it.

I will share an example that I am sure most of us have plenty of similar ones.

My brother in law is a big Gophers fan. His family has had season tickets for decades. He goes to every game and follows the B1G pretty closely.

During Xmas I went to a Gophers game with him, against Florida International. I was joking around telling him "Enjoy it now, because next week we are coming into this arena and leaving with a win". He looked at me, shrugged his should and said in a very condescending way "We are not losing to Northwestern".

Often is similar in the office with the Purdue and IU fans. Pretty obvious in their minds I am the guy to entertain but not take seriously. Because, you know... Northwestern. Football, slightly different.

After making the tournament. After being 10-6 this decade against Minny. That is still how we are seen. That school that once in a while wins a game.

That's other school's fans. But I'm afraid it is most of our fan base. Judging from how many people, and students, we have in the stands, that's definitely our fan base.

This board has a lot more of us, who don't want to settle for occasionally winning, than the NU population at large. Still a whole lot of folks here that are fine with the occasional NIT season.

that is definitely the national thought on football too "a nice school that wins games sometimes" the west championship was a fluke and nothing more. we are pesky

 

[willycat]

don't have time this morning to read all comments, apologies if duplicate

Basketball WAS competitive - sort of - for most of the period from 2004 to 2018. Something like 3 really bad years in there. yes there was some handwringing about the NCAA drought, now over, but we had solid, competitive teams most of the time. Maybe not Zion Williamson types but we got good, solid players and won some games. Recruiting was blamed, remember, on sourpuss Carmody, not standards. Now, suddenly, admissions standards are a problme

The problem, for me, anyway, is the inexplicable collapse since the tourney year. Not just wins, but, seriously - EIGHT scholarship players? How do you even practice? And this includes a lacrosse player and a transfer. No upper class of recruits at ail. This is a complete failure at a time when recruiting should have been at its zenith.

Also, I'm just not seeing the 'wait til next year' thing. It seems that we've lowered our expectations bar so much that we are excited if one or two of our players look like actual B1G starters, instead of expecting five of same, and an all-B1G 2nd teamer in there.

To me, the fact that many of us are just hoping, that maybe, somehow, we might make the NIT in two years is just...sad

Usual disclaimer - casual fan, just not seeing it. For the record, I feel football will recover next year but if not - same question - competitive for 24 years then collapse?

Finally, NU is an institution of higher learning, first and foremost. I care nothing for having one and done players strictly for entertainment purposes. What's the point?

First admissions have always been the a problem and unless they change their ways, they will remain so. NU has 11 scholarship players on scholarship but one is out for the season with an injury and another is sitting out his transfer year. Still NU should always carry 13 scholarship players. One or two one and done kids would certainly help and not for " entertainment" purposes but to win games. Finally football needs to find a top flight QB for it to recover from last seasons failures.

 

[haywood jahblowme]

there are 11.

spencer
turner
gaines
nance
kopp
greer
young
audige
jones
beran
jones

also surprised malanti wasn't given one like CPF has done over the years on the football side which would've been 12.

NU loses 2 (spencer/turner) and adds 2 next (berry, nicholson), and wouldn't be surprised to see a 12th added with a 5th year. then fully expect 3 to be used in the 2021 class which would be full 13 (gaines, 5th year, open - filled by 3 in 2021). i still don't think CCC has recovered from vasser ordeal to just give out scholarships to fill a class.

 

[PURPLECAT88]

Why has football been able to enjoy much more consistent success despite the admissions hurdles when it takes SO MANY more players to build a football team than a basketball team?

You would think it would be HARDER to build a winning football team?

Football players develop later so it's easier to find "diamonds in the rough". Generally the top basketball players in a class are known by 8th grade, and the top schools are already on them. Football is much more about development and injury luck.

 

[PURPLECAT88]

there are 11.

spencer
turner
gaines
nance
kopp
greer
young
audige
jones
beran
jones

also surprised malanti wasn't given one like CPF has done over the years on the football side which would've been 12.

NU loses 2 (spencer/turner) and adds 2 next (berry, nicholson), and wouldn't be surprised to see a 12th added with a 5th year. then fully expect 3 to be used in the 2021 class which would be full 13 (gaines, 5th year, open - filled by 3 in 2021). i still don't think CCC has recovered from vasser ordeal to just give out scholarships to fill a class.

You don't expect Gaines to stay for a 5th year? Because it's you I have to ask, is this a guess or inside info?

 

[NUera]

Sean Dockery had a 2.3 GPA and a 15 ACT when Duke admitted him. Eventually he met the NCAA minimums if 2.5/17... but it doesn’t change that Duke let him in as a partial qualifier.

Last I checked, the value of a Duke degree hasn’t suffered.