As much as people like to crap on Pete, he averaged 5.5 defensive rebounds a game. Matt’s at 2.1.
Big Guys
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I think Brian James worked with bigs in the pros and was known for that. Big Matt has seemed a little more active inside since he lost his starting position. Perhaps that was a motivating tool for a guy who almost seems too nice.
It sounds like you are claiming that all development of every player is on the player and the coaches have nothing to do with it. We both know thats not true.
Nicholson does some things well. He's a very good screener. That was taught by NU coaches.
He is also quite good at clearing opponents from defensive positions when one of our guys drive the lane.
That also has to be taught. How to defend without fouling - has to be taught (for most players).
How to handle the ball - where to hold it. All sorts of little techniques.
Unfortunately he has not learned good rebounding technique. He has also not learned how to post up.
You are obviously going to blame the player and exonerate the coaches. Thats as certain as death and taxes.
However, I don't think Nicholson is incapable of learning and I don't question his desire to win. So why is his rebounding technique so undeveloped? Because he doesn't want to get a lot of rebounds? I think not.
As any parent knows, sometimes its the teachers.
Part of that is playing time of course.
In Nance's last year at NU he averaged 9.5 total rebound per 40 minutes.
About 15% of those were offensive rebounds.
Last year Nicholson averaged 10.3 total rebounds per 40 minutes.
About 40% of those were offensive rebounds.
This year, Nicholson is down to 6.8 total rebounds per 40 minutes and thats mostly outside of Big Ten play.
Nothing is black and white. Of course I am not saying the coaches have nothing to do with development - we can name lots of players, Buie being the most obvious, who developed within our system thanks to coaching. I don’t ascribe much at all of Matt’s inability to rebound to lack of coaching. That’s a lot of individual effort based on some very basic techniques learned very early on in life. His inability to get silly fouls is another example that is on him, not the coaches - we disagree there. We can agree to disagree how much every facet of the game is individual vs. coaching, and especially 7-foot Matt’s rebounding. See end of Wisconsin game for an example.
Best game for MN on a long while. Great to see him be an impact guy in the middle again. Even contributed offensively when the refs didn’t let Wisconsin punch him in the elbow on the way up
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We got a lot of 2023 Matt Nicholson back in that game, if we’re gonna get a lot more of thag it’s a big upgrade to the team this year, let’s just be happy
If I credit the coaches for a players success, you agree 100%.
If I blame the coaches for a players shortcomings, you disagree 100%.
You just did it again.
Is that ever going to change?
I thought maybe just maybe we'd pull it out when Nicholson of all people made those two free throws. I don't think NU scored after that though.
Players play; coaches coach. Coaches need to give players the best possible ability to succeed. My view is that Collins clearly provides this for his team. And it’s not just mine - just listen to John Bielein (who many board members wanted to take over for Collins) for the latest praise of Collins. My support of this coach was proven right and I will continue to do so until shown otherwise.
Agreed. I've complained a lot about him but he played well today. All over the court on both ends, better on D and O. Still not what I hoped but he mostly neutralized his guy even while helping, couple of good moves on offense and passing.
Wisconsin is damned good. We let Joe Crispin score as much as Boo and that was the game.
There's improvement for MN today. He's not a quick twitch guy but this year it looks like things are moving slower. Some of it is mental. Gotta hope his improved play today leads to bigger and better things...this month! These next 5 games are key. 3-2 is my O/U. MD and OSU are musts. Any 1 of @NEB, @PUR or Illinois would help the resume big time.
I’d just be happy with his size if MN carved out more space and went up with authority to claim some rebounds. Too often he falls in love with the one hand slap and hoping somebody out top can corral the ball. Seems like if you are over 7’ you should be able to isolate opponents and cleanly pull down more rebounds.
I think Big Matt just isn’t aggressive enough. The stuff about positioning and footwork is explained in HS. Of course, coaching continues forever. Brian James is considered a strong Coach for Big Men. I am betting Big Matt is getting an earful about getting more active on the glass every practice.
My frustration is with what I perceive to be a lack of aggression. People complain about his fouls, but I don’t think the issue is the number of fouls, it’s the type of fouls. I would like him to actually give a hard foul more often. Make smaller guys think twice about going up against Paul Bunyan. Haven’t seen much of that this year at all, but missed todays game due to travel.
Its one thing to support a coach. It is something else to claim he is infallible and blame the players for everything that goes wrong.
I'm only asking you to be a tiny bit objective.
I’ve said he’s not perfect - who would ever believe someone is? I just don’t think he merits the constant implication that he is not coaching well via the +/- stat which is the basis for so much of your criticism (if you were running this for our opposing coach and comparing it, I might be more interested in the results). You have to consider his performance relative to reasonable expectations of other imperfect opposing coaches.
As to our recent issue of player vs. coach development - does every other coach develop every one of his players to their fullest extent? Kevin Ollie of UCONN won a national championship in his first year of coaching - do you think he developed his players better than all other coaches? Heck - our guys have to study way more than others - that is an obvious barrier (among many others we’ve discussed ad nauseum) he has to overcome right from the start.
It’s very hard to name other coaches getting more out of their team, given the context of what Collins has to work with. Many other people of significant basketball knowledge have said this, including Beilein today and Mick Cronin last year.
Probably should stay out of the fray, but as a little guy that never got a rebound, I have come to the conclusion that developing excellent rebounding is more cerebral than most realize. When I hear exceptional rebounders talking, for example, about specific players' shooting tendencies, I realize that being in the right place requires constant active learning. It isn't solely about height and shoving other players away. Some players play with that level of engagement and some don't.
I remember an ESPN sports science looking at Kevin love rebounding and the cameras showed he consistently actually started moving his feet to go up for the board before the ball actually hit the rim because he was already reading the shot and seeing how it was going to contact the iron and anticipating the bounce.
Remember the old "Red on Roundball". Used to show at halftime of the su day afternoon games.
The one where Bill Russell talks about rebounding is still in youtube.
All NU bigs should watch it,
The one where Bill Russell talks about rebounding is still in youtube.
All NU bigs should watch it,
As someone who played basketball competently for years and has watched for a lot longer, one of the most important rebounding aspects has always been simply assuming the shot is going to miss and being ready to react based on that assumption. This is especially crucial on shots around the rim. So many times, guys are caught flat-footed with shots around the rim because they seem to be watching and expecting the ball to go in, instead of preparing to grab it if it misses.
People want to believe that Brian James is a mentor for big guys. To me thats just wishful thinking. Look at Purdue's bigs. It is night and day on technique and development. They have an assistant, Brandon Brantley, who played for PU in the early 1990's, stands 6'8" and was a 10 rebounds, 15 points, 1.75 blocks per 40 minutes player. He's been there 12 years as an assistant. He works with the bigs. He coached Matt Haarms, Isaac Haas, Trevion Williams, Zach Edey, Caleb Swanigan and everybody else that came thru West Lafayette.
Izzo had Dwayne Stephens, a 6'7" blue-collar forward who played for Judd Heathcote. He worked with MSU bigs for 19 years and left this year to take the head coaching job at Western Michigan. Interestingly, he had taken over "managing lineups and substitutions" for Izzo recently, but thats a different subject.
We don't have that.
What we do have is a guard for a head coach and 3 guards for assistants. As a player, Chris Lowery was a pesky 5'10" defense-minded point guard at SIU. His reputation as a defensive wizard precedes him. Talor Battle was an unflappable 6'0" guard who excelled at Penn State, scoring 20 a game in conference play as a senior. Two time first-team Big Ten. Good rebounder for a small guard. Bryant McIntosh was a 6'3" point guard, a bit more of a facilitator than Battle. Chris Collins was a much-heralded 6'2" shooting guard at Duke, whose legendary former coach has occasionally joked that Collins played no defense at all, though he had a very good senior year on the offensive end.
With all those guards on the coaching staff, Boo Buie's improvement has been most obvious. Buie learned from Collins initially, but stepped up with elements of McIntosh and Battle on the offensive end, elements of Lowery on the defensive end. Coaching and individual development. Exactly what you want.
Now look at the bigs. One thing Nicholson does well is set screens to free up guards to shoot. Guards know the value of a good screen, it feels like this was practiced over and over and over. So thats great - it leads to a lot of points for NU - it facilitates the guards. Nicholson's defensive technique improved last year - with the arrival of Ty Verhoeven and Chris Lowery. Nicholson has publicly thanked Verhoeven for his mentorship and Lowery has called Matt the team's best defender. Credit to both on the defensive end and possibly the mental part of the game.
But... there has been no improvement on the aspects of post play where Nicholson establishes position, receives a pass and gets a shot up. Its footwork, using your body, with your back to the basket. Our assistant coaches don't know much about that. Brian James is acknowledged as a guy who is really good at drawing up plays - an X's and O's guy Thats a real talent. But to think that he is adept at teaching big guys the techniques that elevate their games is a real stretch - or perhaps a suburban legend.
So I take it you don’t buy AOF’s thesis that playing the position doesn’t help in Coaching it? 😀
I don’t know PWB, we have had a lot of “developmental” big men in the CCC era. Pardon, Young, and Bigg Matt come immediately to mind as very lightly recruited prospects that most considered improved dramatically at NU. So using the argument that Coaches improve players that work hard, who is responsible for their improvement? If they came in nearly finished products, then our staff is phenomenal evaluators of college ready talent when pretty much everyone else isn’t.
There is a disparity in talent between the guards and bigs. To truly gauge the effectiveness of coaches in player development, it is important to observe the progress of multiple players from their first to fourth year under the coaching staff. Some players possess a higher potential than others and even if they do not reach their maximum capability, they can surpass those who have achieved their full potential.
1. Alex Olah
Alex Olah became stronger and expanded his shooting range. He honed his zone defense skills, which maximized his limited mobility and advantageous size to block shots and alter opponents' scoring attempts. With McIntosh leading the team, he developed into a savvy pick and pop player. Although he lacked aggressiveness and athleticism, he demonstrated substantial improvement under the staff's guidance.
2. Pardon
Pardon displayed the highest potential among the group. His quick jumping ability combined with a delicate touch allowed him to elevate his game each year. He notably improved his defensive capabilities annually and became a dependable scoring option. As an integral part of the NCAA tournament team, his only limitation was his height, and he had limited shooting range.
3. Young
Initially redshirted, Young developed excellent footwork around the basket and demonstrated a gentle touch as his career progressed. Among the group, he faced the most limitations in terms of size and athleticism. Nonetheless, his positioning for rebounds and in the post was exceptional. Young serves as a prime example of a player maximizing their talent.
4. Nicholson
Nicholson's positioning on both ends of the court has shown significant improvement since his arrival at NU. He effectively creates space on drives and excels at defending opponents in the post. His increased strength has enhanced his ability to wall up. Although he possesses a substantial size advantage, he lacks tough in offensive scoring. He never was going to develop into much of a scorer given these limitations. Additionally, his vertical leap is limited, and it remains unclear why he hasn't improved as a rebounder. Nevertheless, the coaching staff has done an excellent job developing his skills.
Overall, this coaching staff has demonstrated exceptional player development. The aforementioned players have showcased remarkable progress during their time at NU. Of course, credit also belongs to the players themselves. It is important to keep in mind how good they became despite their limitations.
I honestly have zero idea what experience helps or doesn’t help in basketball compared to football
So coaches don’t teach. The players don’t execute. Admissions controls recruiting. What exactly does CCC do to be soooo fantastic in your mind?
Although he's played better in the last few games, Nicholson has regressed from last Spring. Why? Coaches responsible or not?
Meanwhile, Hunger has developed pretty well so far.
The coaches will be responsible when Matt shows improvement. Thats the way it goes around here. You can't get a straight answer.
I appreciate your opinion on these players.
1. Alex Olah. A Carmody recruit. Sort of the typical Carmody post player. Better than most. Came in as a fairly mature freshman. Big enough and developed enough to start 29 of 31 games, but struggled to score, shooting 42% from the floor. Improved shooting percentage to 50% as a sophomore, first year under Collins. That stayed the same over the next 2 seasons. Rebounding improved between sophomore and junior seasons, then stayed steady. Scored more his senior year as shots increased. So incremental improvement each year, but thats to be expected.
2. Dererk Pardon. Collins was pretty excited about Dererk when he came in as a freshman. "Diamond in the rough" type of forecast. Long arms, good rebounder for a 6'8" center. Was going to redshirt, but Olah got hurt and he played 20 games, about 17 minutes per game. His "Per 40 minutes" numbers did not improve over 4 years. Basically 10 FGA per 40 minutes. Steady 62% success all 4 years. 10 rebounds per 40 all 4 years. As a senior his assist rate was his best but his block rate was his lowest. He played more but showed only slight improvement over 4 years.
3. Ryan Young. High school star in New Jersey. First team all state. Put up numbers like 14 points 14 rebounds per game as a HS junior. 16 points, 12 rebounds as HS Senior. Not viewed as athletic enough for Power 6 play by many. Maryland offered him. Limited vertical ability. Redshirted first season at NU behind Dererk Pardon, Barret Benson and more highly-regarded freshman Pete Nance. Added significant muscle to his frame. Started all 31 games as a sophomore, averaging 26 minutes, showing skillful post moves and rebounding technique. His Per 40 numbers were static. 10 rebounds per 40, 2.5 assists, 1 steal, 1 block. 57% from the floor. His playing time decreased, but he shot more frequently as a senior, before transferring to Duke. At Duke his playing time, FG% and rebounding rate increased.
4. Matt Nicholson. Too much to write about. Completely ignored for first 2 seasons. Hasn't developed at all in some traditional areas like rebounding technique and scoring with his back initially to the basket. Does lots of little things well defensively and to facilitate shot attempts by teammates.
I don't see a ton of development. Most of these guys improve their first year and then plateau. Robbie Beran fits that mold as well. Pete Nance was a notable exception, but he's a different type of player.
Dereck Pardon and Alex Olah are playing pro ball overseas, each averaging over 10 points and over 6-8 rebounds. Pardon shot the best FG % in NU history (!) and blocked 2nd most shots. Ryan Young went to Duke. Once he did, we went to the NCAAs. MN had his best game last year in his last game. And if such a talent as MN were “completely ignored”, why would he have elected to stay at NU?
I can feel comfortable knowing any bias some might perceive of me in favor of CCC is 100x offset by the bias you have against him. Why do you spend so, so much of your time doing this?
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