I suggest you both move to Scandinavia. Being very rational about sports is boring.
Kopp to Indiana
- Thread starter 7th Cir. Cat
- Start date
And a pissy general attitude.I hear even less than that, but locker room problems aren't all that unusual, especially when a team is losing a ton. It's interesting though that one of the big ideas people were championing here to suggest that NU will be much better next year was that everyone was coming back. Now that not everyone is coming back, the rationale for why NU will be much better is necessarily changing. The only thing I know is that I appreciate 112 owning up to his sour grapes.
But let's keep in mind, it's NU basketball. I don't count on everyone coming back until they play game 1 in November. There's still a lot of grades, a lot transfers and a lot of summer ahead.
I don't really see the value of deciding that the problem is the players we don't have on the team, when we're looking at the performance of the team we do (or did in this case) have.
When I do that with actual statistics, people who don't like the conclusions get very upset.
Our talent this past season was better than our results.
It is painfully clear that we underperformed primarily because the coach did a lousy job of putting effective combinations on the court and sticking with them.
We have plenty of returning talent next year and a couple of the freshmen should help right away.
Collins just has to do a "better than awful" job managing our lineup and we''ll be a bubble team at least.
I have sat and dwelled for a bit, my thoughts:
1. Kopp has always been, in my mind, a very, very good 6th man for a very good team. Getting to play against second units, selective use, not drawing top defenders nor expected to defend top players. Not sure IU is a very good team - but if they are, I think Kopp will be a valuable role player....unless
2. I thought Kopp pressed to take this team on his shoulders and do too much offensively. I think this was as a result of little options in our offense. If not, and if this is the plan at IU, I think he will flop. Kopp needs to get open, outside looks first and foremost, with drives and mid-range shots only as change of pace to keep the D honest.
3. As I don't see NU being any good next year, I can't really blame Kopp for leaving. Wish he would have graduated first but....whatever. What gets me is the transfer to IU. For that, I will root against him (easier since much of my family graduated from IU).
4. Continuing on 3, I think this speaks more to the CCC case. I acknowledge CCC is pretty good at recruiting, but player development, in game coaching, defensive coaching, team harmony / chemistry -- not looking good. Covid and the lack of AD allow NU to play another slow game (like Carmody) and keep CCC around. I hope the new AD considers his seat white hot - to the point of even considering in season change if things continue.
5. I would have no problem if I ever learned the admin back channeled PB Sr to entice a package deal and then sent CCC packing if successful. Kinda like the way players and recruits get Croan'd - this would simply be a coaching version, in my mind. But I recognize that there is virtually zero chance of this happening just like there is virtually zero chance of PBJ wearing purple.
Sum total - absent some miracle in player development and some miracle frosh and some other heavy luck, this team is not going to NITs or NCAAs next year. And the Kopp loss won't be that big of a loss, if any, statistically. Kinda sucks - but I see little to be excited about for this team. Every heralded recruit has fallen flat and then the next recruit is hyped to be the one. I will remain ready to jump on the bandwagon if something special happens next year, or if there is a coaching change, but I think my zeal has been tampered.
1. Kopp has always been, in my mind, a very, very good 6th man for a very good team. Getting to play against second units, selective use, not drawing top defenders nor expected to defend top players. Not sure IU is a very good team - but if they are, I think Kopp will be a valuable role player....unless
2. I thought Kopp pressed to take this team on his shoulders and do too much offensively. I think this was as a result of little options in our offense. If not, and if this is the plan at IU, I think he will flop. Kopp needs to get open, outside looks first and foremost, with drives and mid-range shots only as change of pace to keep the D honest.
3. As I don't see NU being any good next year, I can't really blame Kopp for leaving. Wish he would have graduated first but....whatever. What gets me is the transfer to IU. For that, I will root against him (easier since much of my family graduated from IU).
4. Continuing on 3, I think this speaks more to the CCC case. I acknowledge CCC is pretty good at recruiting, but player development, in game coaching, defensive coaching, team harmony / chemistry -- not looking good. Covid and the lack of AD allow NU to play another slow game (like Carmody) and keep CCC around. I hope the new AD considers his seat white hot - to the point of even considering in season change if things continue.
5. I would have no problem if I ever learned the admin back channeled PB Sr to entice a package deal and then sent CCC packing if successful. Kinda like the way players and recruits get Croan'd - this would simply be a coaching version, in my mind. But I recognize that there is virtually zero chance of this happening just like there is virtually zero chance of PBJ wearing purple.
Sum total - absent some miracle in player development and some miracle frosh and some other heavy luck, this team is not going to NITs or NCAAs next year. And the Kopp loss won't be that big of a loss, if any, statistically. Kinda sucks - but I see little to be excited about for this team. Every heralded recruit has fallen flat and then the next recruit is hyped to be the one. I will remain ready to jump on the bandwagon if something special happens next year, or if there is a coaching change, but I think my zeal has been tampered.
Sorry but the talent at NU is historically below just about all of the other programs in the conference. Who on NU's roster would have started for any other Big Ten team? Nance, maybe and just watch how much bench time Kopp will get at Indiana. The "awful" Collins crap is just dumb.
I don't do stats, not my bag, baby!
When I see argument like you've been making about the +/- of player combos and court time, I admit my first thought is whether or not those numbers are balanced against the opposing talent in any meaningful process.
The kind of thing I mean is, if your first off the bench guy plays decent minutes but almost always against the other team's B team, his numbers will look a lot better than the starter who gets to sit when the other side's B team comes in to play. KnowhutImean?
Why would "historic talent levels" have anything to do with last year's team?
Thats just a goofball comment with no bearing on anything.
I can't really help you if you don't want to learn.
The stats are glaring.
Not just "yeah, there's something there" but glaring.
The Nance/Beran/Kopp/Buie/Audige lineup cost us 4 actual points per game over the last 13 games.
They averaged about 7 minutes on the court per game and got outscored 179-127.
No mediocre coach keeps putting that lineup on the floor!
Thats just one example, but it is the most obvious.
The sad fact is that Nance/Gaines/Kopp with any 2 of Audige/Buie/Beran ALL outscored the opposition over those same 13 games.
Alternatively, when we played Young instead of Nance with Kopp/Beran/Buie/Audige we crushed our opponents 39-19 in about 14.5 minutes of play. Thats all Collins used that lineup, which was a pretty obvious alternative to a lineup that spotted every opponent 4 points a game.
Nance and Young would each have started for a bunch of teams.
They are both a little above average for the league.
Other coaches understand talent and especially size.
Kopp would have started for many.
Buie would have started for some.
Hell Nicholson would have probably started for Nebraska.
Yes I know what you mean, but I don't think it matters much. Once you get past the first few minutes, its pretty random.
Though I dislike IU, it is fair to point out the incredible job Mike Woodson has done since being hired:
-Convinced TJD to stay and not enter draft
-Convinced 4 of 6 portal players to stay
-Landed Tamar Bates
-Landed Kopp and Johnson. Voila, full roster
-Even after shelling out $10M for standing around on offense Archie, IU spent on getting top assistant Fife and Matha (I believe as a basketball AD). Surrounding Woodson with serious experience he lacks at the college level
-Convinced TJD to stay and not enter draft
-Convinced 4 of 6 portal players to stay
-Landed Tamar Bates
-Landed Kopp and Johnson. Voila, full roster
-Even after shelling out $10M for standing around on offense Archie, IU spent on getting top assistant Fife and Matha (I believe as a basketball AD). Surrounding Woodson with serious experience he lacks at the college level
Young would not have been a starter and Kopp, 2021 wouldn't have either. Who would Buie have started for? Nicholson ??? You are just telling us that you know very little about BB.
ESPN+ updated their top 100 transfers. Marcus Carr is #1. Miller Kopp isn't in the top 100. Go figure. He is listed in the "All Other" category so they didn't miss him......
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The Athletic also didn't have him in their top 90 at last glance a couple weeks ago. Surprised me.
Saying this as a long time Knicks fan: you will have to wait longer than next year to see.
Our transfer was not in the top 100 OR the "all other" group which was at least 50 more names
And you are for sure there will be better coaching? The jury is still out. Coach Mike and his NBA experience may not transfer well to college as Petino and Calipari's college success didn't transfer too well to the NBA! MSU assistant didn't do too well at IUFW either!
We shall see. Collins certainly has not set the world on fire. Woodson has great assistants and with Matta there I am thinking they will do well. But I get your point.
My guess is we are waiting for a decision from PBJ before we fill the last spot. We have time.
I don't know that you can compare Miller at IU with Miller at NU unless he plays the same role and gets the same amount of attention. We can all expect Miller to do better at IU in part because he won't face the same amount of attention there as the opposing teams will have bigger threats to worry about.
If You don't think Fred Hoiberg would have loved to have Ryan Young in his starting lineup, you're a very dim bulb.
Nicholson would presumably have started for Nebraska too. Obviously Nance, Buie, Kopp or Audige all would have started for the Cornhuskers.
Iowa started Connor McCaffery. Buie and Kopp are better than him, but you could also make the case for Nance being a starter..
The only reason Young might not have started is that Garza liked to be down low and they might not work well together.
Nate Reuvers at Wisconsin is no better than either Nance or Young.
Brad Davison is no better than Boo Buie.
Nance and Young are both equal to or better than Race Thompson and would have started for Indiana.
Buie was better than Rob Phinisee for the same team.
Rutgers had several good players, but Nance, Kopp and Young would have started over Paul Mulcahy.
Minnesota had Marcus Carr and Liam Robbins. Anybody from Buie, Kopp, Young, Nance would have started for them, unless Young and Robbins were redundant.
Nance and Young both are better than John Harrar on Penn State. Kopp and Seth Lundy are about the same.
Purdue had 2 quality big guys, but Eric Hunter was no better than Buie.
Illinois and Michigan probably had better talent than us at all 5 positions.
Nance would have started for most teams in the league, Buie and Young about half. Kopp would have started for some.
It isn't NU's talent thats the biggest problem.
Indiana hasn't been a true blue blood program for a very long time.
Not even close.
The idea that Kopp has so much more game to swag with, and that it's all there on film for a better coach to see, is nonsense.
Indiana had a lot of holes to fill on their roster.
I wish Miller well. If he is successful at Indiana it will likely be with the same game we have seen for 3 years.
GOUNUII
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This is such a silly analysis. You conclude that one or two of our players would have started on other teams and therefore we have enough talent to beat them? And I know you think that good coaches want as much size as they can get on the floor but that's not how the vast majority of basketball coaches view things anymore. Sorry to break the news. A lot of the teams in the conference didn't even play with a true center. So when you say that maybe Iowa wouldn't start Young and Garza together, that's a pretty safe bet. So we might have one player on our team that would have started at Iowa. None on Michigan or Illinois. Paul Mulcahy at Rutgers was a wing that shot 40% from 3-point range. I don't think Young is replacing him in the lineup. Maybe Kopp and Nance. Again, 1 or 2 of our players would have started for Rutgers. One guy at Purdue. 1 or 2 guys at Michigan State. 1 or 2 guys at Maryland (who we beat). 1 or 2 guys at Ohio State (who we split with). Based on overall talent on the roster in the conference, what should our conference record have been? I think 8 wins would would have been about right given our talent and the schedule. And please name the teams that Young would have started for (I am going to eliminate Illinois, Iowa, Michigan, Michigan State, Rutgers, Purdue, Ohio State, Indiana, Maryland and Minnesota because they either had a better center or they didn't play with a traditional center).
Now that the comic strip is over and we all know that's "it" was because of our "terrible" coach, what's the real answer. Just try and remember that "terrible" coach was the first NU coach, ever to get NU to "The Dance". Oh and they won their first game and were a refs call from moving on.
I would hope that a good coach would play to our strengths. If Nance and Young was our most productive lineup, then I'd want to see as much of that as possible.
I'm sick of the pass the ball around the perimeter and chuck up a three as the shot clock expires offense.
I think I would agree with two (of the very many) statements in this response.
Leave for Big Ten Foe Indiana? Looks like he Kopped Out.
IU fan here. When we think of Kopp, the first thing that comes to mind is "Indiana killer". Damn, we hated the way he played against us. When B1G teams played against NW, the first objective was to stop him. He seemed to get the best defensive player every night. He was pretty one dimensional on offense. If you could get up on him and force him into difficult shots, his offensive efficiency would decline and the team would become stagnant. At IU, he will be the third option, at best, behind TJD and Xavier Johnson. This will likely result in him playing more freely, and hopefully from our perspective, better.
I certainly get why you guys are either pissed at him or happy he is gone. We went through that with Luke Recker years ago. Hopefully this works out for both teams next year. Good luck.
I certainly get why you guys are either pissed at him or happy he is gone. We went through that with Luke Recker years ago. Hopefully this works out for both teams next year. Good luck.
Yeah. Collins had a group of guys who played together for a couple years and gelled as a team. We made the tournament, got lucky against Vandy when their guy fouled B Mac, then were totally unprepared for Gonzaga, fell way behind, made a stirring 2nd half rally only to have the coach get T'd up after a bad call, costing us the game.
B Mac is quoted as saying words like "I was so mad at coach Collins right there, he basically cost us the game."
Your assertion is that no one on our roster, other than Pete Nance, would have started for any other Big Ten team. Think about how dumb that is for just one second.
As we are NU fans we always ignore the dumb Vandy foul. We were down by 1. I give Vandy a 70% chance to win the game without that foul.
And, again, as we are NU fans we like to say the goal tending call cost us the game. It didn't. It cost us a chance at winning the game. I give Gonzaga a 70% chance of winning the game even with the goal tend being called.
That's a pretty lucid analysis IMO. Kopp did have great games against IU. So often his big games came from 3 pt shots in transition. Cause him getting open was very hard to come by.
The criticism of Kopp around here is not new. It was just exacerbated by his departure. I bet it exists in every board.
Stefanovic at Purdue is a Kopp like player. And is still often mentioned as a great threat by fans, announcers, etc. I bet he gets his fair share of Boilermaker fan criticism for being easy to neutralize. I remember watching live Texas @ Purdue. Stefanovic gets hot, Texas clamps down, Stefanovic dissapears.
For me, Kopp is considerably better. IU made a good move.
Apparently you misunderstood the reason I wrote that response. Somebody made the ridiculous assertion that no one on our team other than Pete Nance would have started for any Big Ten team.
You also misunderstand my repeated comments about NU playing two bigs. Its not that I want that to be the style we play, its that its our best team to put on the floor, with the current players. You are supposed to try to win. You recognize what you have and play to your strengths, Collins failed to do so this past season.
I do find your argument that "a lot of teams didn't play with a true center" to be odd. Its mainly because they didn't have one. Is that not fairly obvious? Ryan Young starts for those teams. Ryan Young averaged 16.4 pts and 10 rebounds per 40 minutes of game time. He was our most effective player from a "+/-" perspective.
He wasn't going to displace Hunter Dickinson at Michigan, Miles Johnson at Rutgers, Trevion Williams at Purdue or Kofi Cockburn at Illinois. Like almost every other center in the Big Ten, Ryan Young couldnt handle Cockburn. However, a "star" like Liam Robbins was 19.0, 10.7 rebs for 40 minutes, slightly more productive than Young.
If you put him on the floor for Nate Reuvers at Wisconsin, the Badgers are certainly no worse. Same for Kyle Young at Ohio State or John Harrar at Penn St. Maryland and Indiana needed a center and would have started Ryan Young and been better off. Presumably Izzo too. He couldnt find a successful team for quite awhile. Nebraska is a gimme.
I think NU should have won 8-10 conference games this year.
Kopp is entering a setup where in some games he may have more shots than dribbles -- which is perfect for him. Just take trailing 3s, run off picks, and go straight to the basket when defenders overcommit. He can do all of those things really well. While his move inside the conference was annoying and I hope he gets booed next year at W-R, I also hope he does well after going through three years of the grind here.
But he will still have to play defense. Didn't seem vey interested in doing so last season.
I was responding to the last sentence in your post ("It isn't NU's talent thats the biggest problem"), after basically going through the exercise of proving that almost every team in the conference had more talent.
With respect to true centers, it's absolutely not obvious that teams don't play a true center because they don't have one. It's not 1986 anymore. If that were the case, then Matt Nicholson clearly would have gotten scholarship offers from all of those teams lacking a center. And by your logic you know who really could have used Ryan Young? Baylor. They didn't have a true center. They had one guy that was 6'10" and he played 15 minutes a game! Think how much better they would have been if they had a big guy down low. You can make all the arguments you want about NU based on extrapolating +/- stats from the limited minutes that Young and Nance played together, but don't presume that other teams in the conference want to start a true center who is not a dominant player.
And Indiana has TJD. They don't need another big guy clogging up the lane. And Robbins averaged 2.4 blocks a game and was a defensive force so that tips the scale to him in a big way. And don't forget Garza at Iowa.
CCC introduced COVID 19 to the USA as well as getting a poorly timed T.
That's a much more complicated answer than just saying it's not 1986. It's not exactly new teams moving away from the mandatory 7ft classic center posted down low. Who was the center in the Spurs dynasty? A bit more of a stretch, but who was the center in the Bull dynasty? Answers to both: it's complicated.
It's not like there would be any team passing on putting Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing or Shaq on the floor. Problem is, they come once in a blue moon. And what we've seen is more tall guys who were groomed from an early age to play facing the basket. So you don't give up height like in 1970 by not having a 7 footer on the court.
That applies to several teams, in several years. Virginia, Villanova... But I don't think it negates the Ryan Young should play more argument. What those teams had were more athletic back courts of players who could generate movement and get defenses off balance. We don't.
I honestly could not care less if Ryan Young played, or not, at Wheaton College. He should play more at NU.
You like strawman arguments, don't you?
I conceded that there were at least 5 guys that Ryan Young wouldn't have displaced.
I conceded that there were a couple teams in the Big Ten that were better than us at every position.
And you follow up by claiming that I think Ryan Young would have made Baylor a better team.
"A straw man is a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, whereas the real subject of the argument was not addressed or refuted, but instead replaced with a false one."
